Shymalan's Last Airbender cast

[Aotrs Commander]

Let me be uncharaterictically serious for a second (or at least as serious as I'm psychologically capable of getting)...

As some of you may know, M Night Shymalan is directing the film adaption of Avatar the Last Airbender. The cast list has recently been released and it has been brought to my attention by mone other than GanXingba - of Avatar Abridged fame - here (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9y_c4e2p4Nw) that the principle four cast members are all white; as opposed to asian and inuit as in the animation.

Now this may seem like a bit of a storm in a teacup to some. But thinking about it, it's more or less the same as protraying, say Harry Potter as a black guy, Captain America with an upperclass English accent or (say) Black Panther or Storm as white Welsh folk (or, board-appropriate example, if anyone ever made a film of OotS, Roy as a white chap). It's not really on, is it? Given that the adaptions of other things (Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter et al) have been faithful to the ethnisity of the characters, I think that Avatar should be shown exactly the same degree of care.

(It's entirely possible, of course, that Shymalan intends to use heavy make-up to make the cast more asian/inuit but that does seem like enough work to be unlikely.)

I grant you, an ethnic change is not anything to be greatly concerned about if it doesn't affect the character and it fits with the background...I didn't, for example, turn much of a hair towards the black Kingpin (in Daredevil) or Ford Prefect (in Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy). This, however, is not one of those times.

So, I thought the very least I can do is bring this to people's attention. I encourage anyone who feels strongly enough about this issue to follow GanXingba's example and go to http://aang-aint-white.livejournal.com/, which will tell you where to write a polite letter of concern. (Especially anyone stateside; writing a snail-mail letter from across the pond is a rather greater expense.) I emphasise 'polite' since a bucket full of barely verbose rage is unlikely to help anyone...

I intend for this post to be merely informative rather than provocative, so please, no-one take any offense - since none is intended, save perhaps a polite cough in the direction of the directors - to any particular ethnicity, nor to the persons so cast. I say this only as a precaution, since this may be a touchy issue for some and I'd rather be completely clear I don't intend to impune anyone from the outset. So let's keep this all terribly polite!

Thank you for reading. This has been a public (fan)service announcement from the Army Of The Red Spear.



(I'm not even going to mention casting Jessie McCartney as Zuko...)

[Collin152]

Jessie McCartney as Zuko?!
Nooooo! (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s)

Draco in Leather Pants indeed.

But, yeah, too many white people, I agree. Someone write a letter for me! I'm much too disinclined to support the US Postal service to do it myself!

[Nerd-o-rama]

I don't care about the race. I care about the fact that all of these actors suck or, at best, are total newcomers. The Avatar setting, after all, isn't Asia. It takes a lot of aesthetics from Asia (and for some reason, Southeastern Europe), but it's a fantasy setting. Race doesn't really make a difference; even the fact that the war is a conflict between ethnically homogenous countries is fairly secondary. But, nonetheless, all these people are terrible actors.

[Rogue 7]

Jesse Freakin' McCartney?! I am honestly less concerned about the lack of respect for the Eastern Aesthetics and themes of the show than I am about the lack of respect for Zuko's character. Now, for all I know Jesse McCartney could be the next Marlon Brando. But somehow I doubt it. This feels like a very shallow choice designed to appeal to fangirls and the like. It smacks of the producers simply not caring about Zuko's complex character and motivations and the very real challenges he has to face. Frack me, this film is looking worse and worse with every announcement.

Saying that, GanXingba certainly has a very good point that they're completely screwing over the show's eastern culture and themes. Once again, my hopes for this movie drop lower and lower.

Edit: NerdoRama- GanXingba brought my attention to This link (http://aang-aint-white.livejournal.com/1007.html#cutid1). That's a very heavy influence, even if the world is a fantasy one.

[Ditto]

Aang isn't Asian.

Paku looks quite Asian, and Aang isn't that. Iroh is arguably so, but it is *hardly* the case that everyone in Avatar is just because they have names like Tai Li and Chit Seng and Bomi. The cultural artifacts need to stick around becuase they're quite explicitly flavored in the series - but race is not.

I want to know who's playing Toph. She's my favorite character. :smallsmile:

[Terraoblivion]

Besides finding a large number of Inuit actors who speak English is hard. The largest concentration of Inuits is Greenland which still only have a population of 55,000 most of whom don't speak English and has halting Danish as their only foreing language. The 20,000 or so Inuit in Canada and Alaska is probably a better bet, but they are still largely outside of anybody's view when it comes to casting.

[Joran]

To be honest, I'm ambivalent. I'm more concerned about the quality of the actor (I mean seriously Jesse McCarthy?!) than that person's race. I really liked Avatar and want it to do well.

However, recently, I was trying to think of all of the up and coming young Asian actors and came up empty. This seemed like the type of movie that would have provided an opportunity to find talented Asian actors and it got squandered.

P.S. I was more annoyed that Jake Gyllenhaal was cast as the Prince of Persia...

P.P.S. I find race in anime to be inscrutable. Unless they're obvious (huge black guy, blond American), the Japanese people and white people look the same. My main example is Revi from Black Lagoon; she's supposed to look Chinese, but I don't get that vibe from her at all.

[Neon Knight]

Like many others, I'm more concerned with the actor's ability to, you know, act, rather than with their ethnic background. Sadly, this cast list doesn't seem to satisfy those requirements either.

[Cpt. Soup]

A live action picture based on an anime or even a cartoon in general will not be very good at all from the ones I've seen. Too much of what it was is lost in the transition, I have zero expectations. I don't see why people insist on doing it, a fine example of the horror unleashed would be this lovely picture here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMCjVdzq3dk). This film is of course completely in keeping with what its based on.. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuDvS5izltU)

Anyway, Avatar's underlining absurdity which managed to merge delightfully even in the super serious climax with the firelord will no doubt be lost to the people over in Hollywood, being to wrapped out in how they can sell this film to as wide an audience as possible. They can count on the fans to go because they're fans so no need to win them over.

So I encourage you all to despair and possibly gather at some point in the future in LA as a mob to put Hollywood to the torch.

[Rogue 7]

I'm a huge Avatar fan and the more I hear about this, the less I want to see it.

[Collin152]

A live action picture based on an anime or even a cartoon in general

Just like to remind us all that Avatar is not Anime, and is in fact, Western Animation.
Making the Asian appearences of the cast more... Asian.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

Given that the adaptions of other things (Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter et al) have been faithful to the ethnisity of the characters, I think that Avatar should be shown exactly the same degree of care.

Funny, Viggo Mortensen doesn't look Númenorian.


I grant you, an ethnic change is not anything to be greatly concerned about if it doesn't affect the character and it fits with the background...I didn't, for example, turn much of a hair towards the black Kingpin (in Daredevil) or Ford Prefect (in Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy).

Ford Prefect was neither black nor white -- he was Betelgeusian. Are you saying Betelgeusians can't be black? Because if you are, that's speciesist.

So, to sum up my opinion on this issue: "What is this Asian you speak of? I have never heard of it before."

[Cpt. Soup]

Just like to remind us all that Avatar is not Anime, and is in fact, Western Animation.
Making the Asian appearences of the cast more... Asian.

I know its just sort of animeish, hell one of the people behind King of the Hill was a co-creator for Avatar, that's why I mentioned cartoons as well.

[FoE]

I'm ambivalent as to the cast's ethnicity. I just don't like the idea of a live-action Avatar movie. Period.

[Reinforcements]

Bad actors are bad, but come on, this is being directed by M Night Shymalan. There was never a chance of it being good.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Bad actors are bad, but come on, this is being directed by M Night Shymalan. There was never a chance of it being good.This man makes an excellent point.

[Aotrs Commander]

Funny, Viggo Mortensen doesn't look Númenorian.

True. They might have been able to have gotten away with taking more liberties with him much better than most of the rest of characters actually.


Ford Prefect was neither black nor white -- he was Betelgeusian.

Quite. It was never mentioned in the book or the radio show; and while he was played by a white guy in the TV show, England being a multicultural place, there was no compelling reason why he couldn't be of any particular ethnicity. (Actually, come to that, it probably wouldn't make any difference to Arthur or Trillian, either; though the former is something of white Englishman steriotype I suppose.)

I'm only bothered - and not up-in-arms bothered, merely raising an eyebrow with a slight frown bothered - when (and let's be fair, it's basically only TV and Hollywood who do this) someone makes an apparently arbitary decision to change some character's portrayed gender or ethnicity (or I suppose feasibly in some cases species or alignment or something) when it doesn't fit with the background or source material.



Still, few people seem bothered by this; less than I thought. *Shrug* Fair enough; after all, my primary intention was merely to highlight the situation for those it might interest.

[Wraithy]

Could be worse: Shia LaBeouf. 'Nuff said.

Although more seriously, I don't think the all-white protagonists was anywhere near a good choice. It could either go two ways if they keep it:

They portray the nations properly, but have an all-white cast. This way just doesn't seem right, it would feel a bit like Transformers re-enacting the Canterbury tales (with Starscream as the miller's wife).

Or (and I think this is more likely) they tone down the design of the film to the point that everyone is wearing a practically unisex robe, with the only variation between nations being the colour they wear and the CG applied to the bland sloppy movements they've substituted for an actual martial arts just in case a kiddie hurts itself.

Honestly, I have yet to see a single live action adaptation of any truly creative work which could ever hold a candle to what it was crudely trying to mimic.

...Why do I feel like drowning some kittens now?

[Raistlin1040]

I don't mind so much if a character's race is changed, provided the actor is good. For example, I enjoyed the movie 21, where the main character (Asian in real life) was played by Jim Sturgess, white. I like Jim Sturgess, and happen to think he's a good actor. But taking the roles in Avatar, giving them to horrible white actors instead of talented Asian actors (Aaron Yoo comes to mind), that's just stupid.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Or (and I think this is more likely) they tone down the design of the film to the point that everyone is wearing a practically unisex robe, with the only variation between nations being the colour they wear and the CG applied to the bland sloppy movements they've substituted for an actual martial arts just in case a kiddie hurts itself. Oh dear. I've just considered what these people trying to perform Kung Fu/Ba Gua/Tai Chi/Hung Gar will look like on a big screen. The only thing I'll say on ethnicity is that a movie produced in Hong Kong with its tradition of wuxia and kung fu films would be more likely to have authentic fight choreography.

Yeah, I'll be giving this a pass.

[13_CBS]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

M Night Shyamalan. Who made a bunch of horror movies like 6th Sense and stuff, is directing Avatar.

I don't think the forum can handle the required font for my WTF.

[Raistlin1040]

WTF?

Something like that, perhaps?

[FoE]

Well, he did make Lady in the Water, which was supposedly based on a children's story.

Mind you, the results were not too good.

[Neon Knight]

He also made The Happening. In case you'd forgotten the pain from that.

No, I can't say this is looking very good.

[13_CBS]

$5 bucks says that he's gonna make a cameo of himself in the Avatar film. Another $10 says that he'll be Appa. :smallbiggrin:

[Innis Cabal]

It was based on a story -he- told his children. It was awful.

And, for all of non-whites everywhere. We don't care. Everyone in that show is more or less white. Sorry. Save for the inuit water benders....flavor=/=race.

[Cybren]

Oh dear. I've just considered what these people trying to perform Kung Fu/Ba Gua/Tai Chi/Hung Gar will look like on a big screen. The only thing I'll say on ethnicity is that a movie produced in Hong Kong with its tradition of wuxia and kung fu films would be more likely to have authentic fight choreography.

Yeah, I'll be giving this a pass.

Doubtful. Hong Kong kung fu movies rarely portray any actual martial arts. It's descended from acrobatics and gymnastics more than anything else. (most actors coming from chinese opera rather than martial arts). Before and after Bruce Lee, not many film makers were interested in authentic martial arts.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, while I know they're based on real styles, how realistic (vs. showy acrobatics) are the martial arts in Avatar?

And I admit, my Hong Kong film knowledge consists entirely of Bruce Lee. And Jackie Chan, but I know he's not trying to look realistic.

[Innis Cabal]

They arn't....but that would make your whole "Well since they won't be acuratly portrayed on the big screen" argument...moot. Ya?

[Nerd-o-rama]

They arn't....but that would make your whole "Well since they won't be acuratly portrayed on the big screen" argument...moot. Ya?

Let me put it this way: Hollywood will half-ass the combat and cover it up with gratuitous CGI. Hong Kong would at least make it look pretty, if still just as unrealistic as the cartoon. I don't want accurate martial arts, I want something that remotely resembles the source material.

[Innis Cabal]

How else would you show energy minipulation? I am sure the martial arts of the American Media will do just fine. Hong Kong has alot of stinkers to. You just don't get them.

I don't like the guy personally, and for that reason I won't be seeing it. No other reason, he's an egotistical writer who thinks he is a genius because the common mass's beleive that "GASP! HE'S A GHOST!? WE NEVER SAW THAT COMMING! LOL!" is cunning and suspensful.

[FoE]

The Other Wiki to the rescue!


The fighting choreography of the show draws from martial arts; the fighting styles and weaponry are based on Chinese martial arts, with each bending art corresponding to a certain real-world style. The creators use Ba Gua for airbending, Hung Gar for earthbending, Northern Shaolin for firebending, and Tai Chi for waterbending.[19] The only exception to this is Toph, who employs a Chu Gar Southern Praying Mantis style.[31] The show employs Sifu Kisu of the Harmonious Fist Chinese Athletic Association as a martial arts consultant.[32]
Each fighting style was chosen to represent the element it projected:
Tai Chi focuses on alignment, body structure, breath, and visualization. This technique is the foundation of "Waterbending" in the series.[19]
Hung Gar was chosen for its firmly rooted stances and powerful strikes to represent the solid nature of earth. This martial art is the basis of "Earthbending" in the series.[19]
Chu Gar Southern Praying Mantis has distinguishing movements and unique footwork that are employed by Toph Bei Fong to complement her blindness, giving her a unique style of Earthbending.[31]
Northern Shaolin Kung Fu uses strong arm and leg movements. This technique is the foundation of "Firebending" in the series.[19]
Ba Gua uses erratic, circular movements.[19] In Bagua, centrifugal force plays a vital role in generating power, and the nearly constant circular movement creates angles between the fighters. This makes it easier for the practitioner to defend and attack. This martial art is the basis of "Airbending" and is the bending style of the main character, Aang.

An appropriate answer would be "loosely based."


I don't like the guy personally, and for that reason I won't be seeing it. No other reason, he's an egotistical writer who thinks he is a genius because the common mass's beleive that "GASP! HE'S A GHOST!? WE NEVER SAW THAT COMMING! LOL!" is cunning and suspensful.

Hey, take it easy there on then "common masses," buddy. The Sixth Sense was an excellent film. Had he never done another film, M. Night would be remembered as a skilled director.

Besides, "common masses?" Are you royalty or something?

[Nerd-o-rama]

How else would you show energy minipulation? I am sure the martial arts of the American Media will do just fine.I'm being imprecise in my wording. CGI special effects are (probably) necessary to show bending. I was anticipating gratuitous levels of CGI special effects to cover up poor fight choreography. I'll admit, this isn't totally fair to Hollywood's choreographers, it's just very easy to be pessimistic about this film because of everything else we know about it.

[kopout]

C

it would feel a bit like Transformers re-enacting the Canterbury tales (with Starscream as the miller's wife).


hehe heh. Of coerce now that you mention it I can see some one like the millers wife being played by Starscream. He does have a panicky-shrill old lady voice

[Telonius]

Ugh. This is starting to resemble the controversy (http://slate.com/id/2111107/) over the adaptation of Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea series. Thanks for the links, I'll be sending a letter over Paramount's way.

[Green Bean]

Oh dear. I've just considered what these people trying to perform Kung Fu/Ba Gua/Tai Chi/Hung Gar will look like on a big screen. The only thing I'll say on ethnicity is that a movie produced in Hong Kong with its tradition of wuxia and kung fu films would be more likely to have authentic fight choreography.

Yeah, I'll be giving this a pass.

If it makes you feel any better, the kid who plays Aang is apparently some sort of Karate champ. Of course, he's never actually, you know, acted before, so that might not be the most comforting thought.

[Aotrs Commander]

Ugh. This is starting to resemble the controversy (http://slate.com/id/2111107/) over the adaptation of Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea series. Thanks for the links, I'll be sending a letter over Paramount's way.

That's...that's...I not sure whether its more disgusting or pathetic or both. I'd bet daggers to Disintegrates the inverse would never happen.

Glad to have been of service.


Everyone in that show is more or less white. Sorry. Save for the inuit water benders....flavor=/=race.

I'm honestly quite surprised by this statement, since the thought that anyone on Avatar was white has never crossed my mind. I've never seen them as anything but asian the same way I see everyone in (say) Naruto or Pokemon. What, if I may be so bold as to inquire, made you arrive at that conclusion? Not meaning to be impertient or confrontational; I'm just genuinely curious...


If it makes you feel any better, the kid who plays Aang is apparently some sort of Karate champ. Of course, he's never actually, you know, acted before, so that might not be the most comforting thought.

I could imagine that for Aang's role, which will be very physically demanding in particular (he's got to learn four martial arts; assuming of course they keep that aspect of the show - they bloody better...), you'd want to go for someone with the skill to pull it off first and any other aspects second. I don't think, that by itself - or the fact he's an unknown - would have been cause for concern in isolation.

What baffles me is why they choose everyone else they did. I mean, I'd be a bit surprised if they've not got to train Jessie McCartney up heavily for the role, unless he's some secret martial artist or something (not outside the bounds of possibility, I'll admit). So if you've got to train him why not train, oh, I don't know, picking a name at complete random, say Danté Basco. 'Cos y'know, it's not like he's actually done it before or is actually the broadly right ethnicity or anything...

Unless they're planning on making it musical or something.

...

Oh my Lichemaster.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I happen to agree with that assessment. Let's take a look at Aang.

http://water-bender.com/images/bios/aang.png

Looks pretty Tibetan. Also looks pretty Anglo-Saxon-with-a-shaved-head. I can't tell.

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bluespiritgal/-%20CastofCharacters/TyLee.jpg

Frankly looks outright Caucasian, despite being from the show's Imperial Japan equivalent (maybe she's Ainu?)

The art style is generic enough that race is pretty much indeterminate aside from skin tone and clothing style, in my opinion. Anime is much the same way: but for hair color and style, Asian ethnicities and Caucasian ethnicities are damn near identical. Even skin tone is often homogenous across racial lines, and the only distinctions are "black" and "vaguely pink"; Avatar doesn't go this far, mind.

And I'll maintain that physical ethnicity is not important to the story. This story doesn't take place in the real world, real world history and ethnic politics are not important (though I won't say it isn't influenced by history).

[Aotrs Commander]

Fair enough Nerd-o-rama. I'd not really thought of it that way. Perhaps because I have watched a modest amount of anime before I watched Avatar - and the style being similar - I merely made the same assumptions.

[Green Bean]

So if you've got to train him why not train, oh, I don't know, picking a name at complete random, say Danté Basco. 'Cos y'know, it's not like he's actually done it before or is actually the broadly right ethnicity or anything...


Well, the guy's 33 years old, for one. :smallamused:

[thubby]

i support them using as ethnically inappropriate a cast as possible. why? so that no one takes this movie seriously, and so a separate movie can be made, ignoring the previous blunder. much like the hulk.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, the guy's 33 years old, for one. :smallamused:

Isn't what's-his-face who's playing Sokka?

Plus, would that be worse than Jessie McCartney...?

I did make that snark, though, on the basis that I'd seen him in one of the Avatar extras on my DVD and I thought - apparently wrongly - he was much younger than that!



It occurs to me, or course, that if two posters here think of the Avatar cast as caucasian, there's no reason why not maybe M Night Shymalan does too. Maybe even now he's reading all the letters and wondering what the hell these strange people are on... It might be a more benign explanatiuon for his apparently odd decision. (I guess when we see what the rest of the cast - and the exras - are like we might have a better idea.)


i support them using as ethnically inappropriate a cast as possible. why? so that no one takes this movie seriously, and so a separate movie can be made, ignoring the previous blunder. much like the hulk.

There's that, of course...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, the reason for the decision is that 90% of Hollywood actors are black or white and it's for expediency, no question. I just think they're correct in the assessment that tracking down good Inuit actors is probably more trouble than it's worth. Not that I don't want to see greater Inuit representation in the media or anything...

[thubby]

The Other Wiki to the rescue!

*points to quote, which i am to lazy to work into this response*
it's centripetal force

\/ yeah, that.

[Nerd-o-rama]

*points to quote, which i am to lazy to work into this response*
it's centripetal forcehttp://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/centrifugal_force.png (http://xkcd.com/123/)
http://www.xkcd.com

[Magnor Criol]

At the risk of sounding blasphemous, the world-spanning "Asianism" in Avatar always bothered me a little bit; it's one of the few things I didn't like about the show, at least what I've seen of it. (I haven't gotten to see most of the last season, due to being showtimes that don't work for me.)

Don't get me wrong: The show is undeniably high-quality, artistically. I enjoy watching it and enjoy the world the show immerses me in. And they did a great job with the flavor choice that they made; they're consistent, thorough, and intentional about it. A good job with the chosen theme overall.

However, the base choice to go Asian with most everything seemed needless to me. There's already so much Asian stuff out there, and this show wasn't even made in Asia, so why go that route? Choose something less common, or even better, start from scratch blending several influences - after all, it's not based on Earth, they could go crazy creative. But instead, they chose...Asian.

Considering the overwhelming popularity of Asian stuff right now, the choice to go Asian, to me, smacks of fanservice - "Where should this be set?" "Everyone likes Asia, set it there to appeal to kids," sort of thing. It feels to me like if they were really making an artistic choice and not a marketing one the overarching culture would have been much more unique.

The Inuit flavor of the Water tribe was pretty interesting, while it lasted.

-E- And as others have said, I have absolutely zero hopes for this movie, as much as I wish it could be otherwise. Good adaptations of cartoons to live-action are depressingly rare, the whole series and its characters are far too complex to condense well into one movie (and I have no doubt that they'll try to painfully cram all of the complex arcs like Zuko's inner conflicts or the Aang-Katara romancin' up into the one movie, ruining them), the actors seem weak choices, and I've just never held much truck with Shamalayn since Sixth Sense. Bleh.

-E2- Oh, and don't forget that they'll no doubt make Sokka's character a needlessly excessive comic-relief character and little else.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think it was partly marketing, partly the fact that it's very much a kung fu/martial arts show. Plus, they borrowed a ton of artistic motifs from Japanese animation anyway, so why not give credit where credit's due? Also, Classical Mandarin just looks damn cool as a language. Impossible to read, but cool.

And I would like to point out that a good deal of the architecture comes from Europe and the Middle East, so there's that cultural mishmashing in the background at least.

[Magnor Criol]

I think it was partly marketing, partly the fact that it's very much a kung fu/martial arts show. Plus, they borrowed a ton of artistic motifs from Japanese animation anyway, so why not give credit where credit's due? Also, Classical Mandarin just looks damn cool as a language. Impossible to read, but cool.

And I would like to point out that a good deal of the architecture comes from Europe and the Middle East, so there's that cultural mishmashing in the background at least.

Both points are quite valid. Still, the fact remains: It's not set on Earth, they didn't have to limit themselves by representing Earth cultures, they could have been really creative about it.

But, on the other hand, they may not have the right creative endurance to really craft wold-spanning culture types, and the end result would have been much less engrossing. Or maybe they would have created it well, but show's plot would then suffer accordingly from lack of juice, or rushing to beat a deadline after spending all their time trying to make a seamless world.

At the end of the day, it's a good show, and that's what matters, not the choices they could have made.

I wish the same could be said of the movie, but I don't expect it.

[DomaDoma]

Ugh. This is starting to resemble the controversy (http://slate.com/id/2111107/) over the adaptation of Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea series. Thanks for the links, I'll be sending a letter over Paramount's way.

Ugh, yeah, I thought before that Le Guin was a pretty good writer with something of a failing in climaxes, but, I mean: they rape the plot six ways from Sunday, and all she can complain about is that they changed the characters' complexions? That's not the mark of someone in it to tell a story - that's the mark of some kind of equal-opportunity campaign for fantasy universes. Good thing she at least has some creativity to go along with it, but I just can't respect her as a writer anymore.

[Cpt. Soup]

So how likely do you think are the chances of them doing the whole thing in green screen? Recently, thinking about this movie adaption has had me drifting back to my favorite episode, the Ember Island Players (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A827C9fM_j0). I wonder if I'll ever again see a movie with non-CG effects.. I look back on movies like Iron Monkey and think, wouldn't it be grand if we had movies like that again?

[Solaris]

Bad Hollywood. No cookie.

That is all.

[Mx.Silver]

Ugh, yeah, I thought before that Le Guin was a pretty good writer with something of a failing in climaxes, but, I mean: they rape the plot six ways from Sunday, and all she can complain about is that they changed the characters' complexions? That's not the mark of someone in it to tell a story - that's the mark of some kind of equal-opportunity campaign for fantasy universes. Good thing she at least has some creativity to go along with it, but I just can't respect her as a writer anymore.
Well, I won't really dispute the activism charges. After reading Tehanu any doubt of that is ludicrous.
Nonethelss, given that one of the ideas in her mind when writing the books was to create a fantasy world that wasn't the standard 'whiter than bleached cream' affair I'd imagine it would be more than a little annoying. I'm pretty sure she was also fairly annoyed with the plot changes (note her lack of complaints towards the Studio Ghibli take on the novels), but she seemed to be taking particular note with the racial changes both due to the reasons above and because that by ignoring the ethnic element the execs had already made it perfectly clear that they didn't honestly care about following the books at all.

This is of course the underlying issue here. Regardless of however you want to call Aang's ethnicity or what emphasis you put on the east asian inspired culture, it's bloody obvious to anyone watching the show that the main cast are fairly ethnically diverse (Zuko is clearly of a different race than Sokka, for example). The fact that the film has homogenised these characters (not least to an ethnicity that has dubious justification at best for any of them) is a clear signal that the don't really care much for the source material. I never particularly like the show anyway, so I won't be seeing it anyway, but I can pretty much guarantee that anyone who did is going to be leaving the cinema dissapointed (regardless of Shyamalan failings as a director).

[Mr. Scaly]

Honestly I'm not too concerned with the cast's ethnicity, but I am kind of worried about their experience/skill. I'd hate to see the intricate characters of Zuko, Toph, and Azula given to a bunch of people who last starred on Herman's Head, or something.

And then there's Shymalan himself...

...We need a tumbleweed icon.

[DomaDoma]

Regardless of however you want to call Aang's ethnicity or what emphasis you put on the east asian inspired culture, it's bloody obvious to anyone watching the show that the main cast are fairly ethnically diverse (Zuko is clearly of a different race than Sokka, for example). The fact that the film has homogenised these characters (not least to an ethnicity that has dubious justification at best for any of them) is a clear signal that the don't really care much for the source material.

Okay, I may be white and therefore not on advantageous ground here, but I personally find Le Guin's statement about how only we can be colorblind downright offensive. Race does basically come down to complexion, scientifically speaking, and is a separate concept from ethnicity.

Yes, Hollywood should reflect that in their hiring practices.

As to the issue at hand - it is certainly micast in terms of appearance. If I knew nothing else about anybody else involved, though, I would hold reasonable doubt that they could still play out the culture. I'm thinking along the lines of the Dune miniseries here - nobody really seemed to cleave to their character designs, but you can scarcely argue that the creators didn't care about the source material.

But as it is? I'll join their letter-writing campaign regardless of our difference in principles. This is appalling.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I started to type a drawn-out reply to Magnor Criol, but honestly it's not hard to see why pop culture is infused with Samurai, Ninja, Shao-Lin Monks and Martial Arts compared to a pittance of awareness for Medieval and Renaissance Europe.

Nobody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry-VIII-kingofengland_1491-1547.jpg) thinks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Louis-F%C3%A9lix_Amiel-Philippe_II_dit_Philippe-Auguste_Roi_de_France_(1165-1223).jpg) these dudes (http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/o/I/FrederickII-l.jpg) look cool (http://members.tripod.com/~sci267/henryVoncartfull.jpg) or sexy. (http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/f/J/RichardLanding-l.jpg)

And with the exception of Henry VIII, those are all pictures or portrayals from after the dude's lifetime, and of course are sexed up for contemporary tastes. The problem is people don't think of European history as "cool," the way Japanese history has been made cool by cartoons, video games and movies. When European history is portrayed at all, it's either in stodgy and serious movies for adults, or it's Monty Python, Black Adder or Robin Hood: Men in Tights. There's some stuff out there like Konami's Bladestorm: The Hundred Years' War, in which you can play sexy anime versions of the Black Prince, Henry V, and Joan of Arc, and Etienne la Hire is some kind of animal-man. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to the media geared for children and teens that portrays sexy anime versions of Oda Nobunaga (http://i18.tinypic.com/6hhq2dh.jpg), or Toyotomi Hideyoshi (http://koeiwarriors.co.uk/artworks/mo/db/07.jpg).

I mean, honestly, look at those pictures. The Japanese armor Hideyoshi's wearing looks exotic and badass. Half the people in the first pictures I linked to are in what we'd today consider gowns, skirts, or tights in some combination. Plate harness, when accurately drawn, bulges out around the middle. There are some beautiful examples in museums, but they're utilitarian first, sexy second. And comedians have skillfully exploited what looks different and strange about Medieval society for laughs for decades. If you want your fantasy film to appeal to a wider, contemporary-focused audience, and you're choosing between something that will make them think of Dynasty Warriors vs something that will make them think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail or a funny talking animal cartoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney%27s_Robin_Hood), it's really a no-brainer.

Edit: Maybe this is going too far off-topic, but honestly I have nothing to say about the casting. It's a shame and kind of offensive they're whitewashing the Waterbenders, since they're pretty explicitly based around Inuit culture, but the movie sounds like a catastrophe in the first place so oh well.

[Cybren]

I started to type a drawn-out reply to Magnor Criol, but honestly it's not hard to see why pop culture is infused with Samurai, Ninja, Shao-Lin Monks and Martial Arts compared to a pittance of awareness for Medieval and Renaissance Europe.

Nobody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry-VIII-kingofengland_1491-1547.jpg) thinks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Louis-F%C3%A9lix_Amiel-Philippe_II_dit_Philippe-Auguste_Roi_de_France_(1165-1223).jpg) these dudes (http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/o/I/FrederickII-l.jpg) look cool (http://members.tripod.com/~sci267/henryVoncartfull.jpg) or sexy. (http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/f/J/RichardLanding-l.jpg)

http://www.sca.org/

[Piedmon_Sama]

The SCA is so very far from a mainstream hobby I'm not even sure if that was intended as a rebuttal. T_T

[DomaDoma]

The SCA is so very far from a mainstream hobby I'm not even sure if that was intended as a rebuttal. T_T

State things in absolutes, and that's what you get.

'Sides, consider all the works of fantasy taking place in something resembling medieval/Renaissance Europe...

[Cybren]

The SCA is so very far from a mainstream hobby I'm not even sure if that was intended as a rebuttal. T_T

Allow me (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome) to (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_fair) correct (http://www.lordoftherings.net/) myself (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/splash-wrathlaunch2.htm)

[Piedmon_Sama]

Depends on your definition of 'resemble.' Aside from Lord of the Rings, the big RPGs I can think of (Dungeons & Dragons, World of Warcraft) don't much resemble any periods of history I've seen.

Nobody (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/regdar/regdar_full.jpg) looked (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/wi_lidda.jpg) like (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx20050907a_91026.jpg) this. (http://www.todowow.com/gallery/arthas/Arthas_frostmourne.jpg)

The oversized weaponry and armor designs on all those characters are meant to suit a modern idea of cool. I'm making a prognosis that marketing guys who are trying to sell to young people want to avoid making something that looks silly, so men in tights with Prince Valiant haircuts are out.

That's what my answer was to Magnor's question. The guys behind Avatar actually did their research; and even though it's set in a fantasy world, most of the costume choices have a recognizable real-world analogue. (I am, to be fair, basing this on the DVD commentary according to my friend who watched them, but I'd give the creators the benefit of the doubt on this one). "Western" fantasy, if you're thinking of stuff like D&D or World of Warcraft, by and large has people in basically modern clothes in an otherwise feudal society. Rightly or wrongly (I say rightly), marketing guys don't think hosiery and codpieces will look good for the American public (on dudes, anyway).

Edit: Also, Cybren, I'm not trying to be mean, but really. Renfairs/SCA stuff is for committed people who are interested in history. That's not the audience companies who make cartoons and RPGs are going for, because it's a relatively small subset of people.

[Cybren]

Depends on your definition of 'resemble.' Aside from Lord of the Rings, the big RPGs I can think of (Dungeons & Dragons, World of Warcraft) don't much resemble any periods of history I've seen.

Nobody (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/regdar/regdar_full.jpg) looked (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/wi_lidda.jpg) like (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx20050907a_91026.jpg) this. (http://www.todowow.com/gallery/arthas/Arthas_frostmourne.jpg)


Most people didn't "look like" those portraits you showed, either. That was either foppish dress of nobility or almost incomprehensible black and white smudges. Few people "look like" the stylized cartoon characters in Avatar, either.


The oversized weaponry and armor designs on all those characters are meant to suit a modern idea of cool. I'm making a prognosis that marketing guys who are trying to sell to young people want to avoid making something that looks silly, so men in tights with Prince Valiant haircuts are out.

Sure. That's obvious. But your point encompassed "everyone" (as "nobody" would find those people cool)


Edit: Also, Cybren, I'm not trying to be mean, but really. Renfairs/SCA stuff is for committed people who are interested in history. That's not the audience companies who make cartoons and RPGs are going for, because it's a relatively small subset of people.
The fact that you prefaced that with a "no offense" shows how depressingly tame this message board is, but I don't think you're being mean. It is, however, important to note that most people who go to renn faires probably do it for the same reason people go to Medieval Times or the Excalibur hotel in Las Vegas, they want to experience the aesthetic but have very little interest in history.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Er, I'm not sure why you're dismissing "foppish court dress," since I'm talking about esthetics and obviously whatever look was "in" at court would be the fashion for everyone else to follow, or if sumptuary laws forbade, admire. Also except for Henry VIII, all those pictures were by modern artists who were trying to make the subject look as good as possible; the fact you agree that most (!) people wouldn't find it cool reinforces that there's no helping Medieval and Renaissance period dress.

I'm speaking as someone who actually thinks that stuff does look cool. I'd love to see an accurate (within acceptable degrees) use of Medieval costume in some fantasy cartoon somewhere, but it would be a hard sell to anybody who doesn't appreciate the Middle Ages on their own terms.

[Oregano]

State things in absolutes, and that's what you get.

'Sides, consider all the works of fantasy taking place in something resembling medieval/Renaissance Europe...

And the fact that The Japanese love Western culture and a lot of Anime are based on Knights(not Samurai), even back in the day they opted to use European Armour when they could. They think we're trendy and we think they're trendy, that means everybody's trendy!!!*dance*

[Setra]

Nobody (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry-VIII-kingofengland_1491-1547.jpg) thinks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Louis-F%C3%A9lix_Amiel-Philippe_II_dit_Philippe-Auguste_Roi_de_France_(1165-1223).jpg) these dudes (http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/o/I/FrederickII-l.jpg) look cool (http://members.tripod.com/~sci267/henryVoncartfull.jpg) or sexy. (http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/f/J/RichardLanding-l.jpg)
I dunno I thought Frederick II looked cool. Same for Richard the Lionheart.

[Innis Cabal]

And the fact that The Japanese love Western culture and a lot of Anime are based on Knights(not Samurai), even back in the day they opted to use European Armour when they could. They think we're trendy and we think they're trendy, that means everybody's trendy!!!*dance*

Also keep in mind that anime is in fact based on western cartoons, and that all anime characters are based on "american" looking people(No idea what that really means, i'm an american and am not white). Also take into thought that many things we hold as "cultural" have been imported over there, and there is a "Western Invasion" taking place.

[Lord of Rapture]

Is the lose from this movie emanating so much that you all went off topic to forget about it? :smallwink:

Just saying, that's all.

Joke

[Anteros]

And Kingpin wasn't black, yet I'm assuming you didn't scream racism at the Daredevil movie because of the casting. This happens quite literally all of the time. You say that situation is different, but it isn't.

Unless you're ok with it in that specific case because it's a white character being black?

Stop looking so hard for things to get offended about and move on.

[Wraithy]

And the fact that The Japanese love Western culture and a lot of Anime are based on Knights(not Samurai), even back in the day they opted to use European Armour when they could. They think we're trendy and we think they're trendy, that means everybody's trendy!!!*dance*

1. In real life they used European armours because they were superior to the Japanese armours which were often held together by textiles (okay, technically European armours were too, but what are a few fastenings compared to every other piece)

2. When those Anime characters aren't in armour, they wear clothes which are roughly 19th century, you will never see a man in tights (unless he's a jester, but they're hardly cool)

3. Did you ever see a blond person in the Avatar? Did you ever see blue eyes outside of the water tribe? Cartoons tend to blur Asian and Caucasian skin tones.
Even though the Avatar world is not a direct representation of real-world cultures, the design heavily draws from existing cultures, very heavily. And sometimes a character isn't really changed much when the race of the actor playing them is changed (ie: Kingpin in the Daredevil film), but I honestly don't think it'll work if they replace everyone with white people.
Although (and I wouldn't put it past Hollywood) there is a faint fear of mine that only the protagonists will be white and the rest of the cast will be inexplicably different.

[TRM]

Ugh, yeah, I thought before that Le Guin was a pretty good writer with something of a failing in climaxes, but, I mean: they rape the plot six ways from Sunday, and all she can complain about is that they changed the characters' complexions? That's not the mark of someone in it to tell a story - that's the mark of some kind of equal-opportunity campaign for fantasy universes. Good thing she at least has some creativity to go along with it, but I just can't respect her as a writer anymore.
According to the article, LeGuin's goal was to create a fantasy that subverted the typical western fantasy racial representations. She should complain about the film messing with skin tones; it completely contradicts that goal.


WTF?

This was my reaction to Shamalan directing Avatar.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Is the lose from this movie emanating so much that you all went off topic to forget about it? :smallwink:

Just saying, that's all.

JokeYes. That's why I'm not yelling at people for going off on a tangential argument like I usually do when it's in a topic I'm interested in.

[small pumpkin m]

And Kingpin wasn't black, yet I'm assuming you didn't scream racism at the Daredevil movie because of the casting. This happens quite literally all of the time. You say that situation is different, but it isn't.

Unless you're ok with it in that specific case because it's a white character being black?

Stop looking so hard for things to get offended about and move on.
People do actually complain about that, (hardcore fans mostly) although I would argue that since Michael Clarke Duncan is actually a decent actor and is physically similar to Kingpin in stature (and it would be difficult to find a decent white actor who is) that an effort was made and that it worked out well. He's certainly a better fit than John Rhys-Davies.

I don't see an effort made here. I could be wrong, and I'll wait until I see some clips or a trailer, but these picks do not scream quality to me.


I dunno I thought Frederick II looked cool. Same for Richard the Lionheart.
Same here.

[FoE]

He also made The Happening. In case you'd forgotten the pain from that.

Why you eyein' mah lemon drink?! :smalltongue:

[Oregano]

1. In real life they used European armours because they were superior to the Japanese armours which were often held together by textiles (okay, technically European armours were too, but what are a few fastenings compared to every other piece)


My point was that the Japanese have always liked European style and culture, the armour thing was half said in jest(because I already knew it was superior) and half to show that they did appreciate other's work. My point was that also Western culture is drawing heavily of Japanese, it's also been working vice versa for a long time.

About Daredevil: Surely more people were bothered about Ben Afflek and Jennifer Garner, they weren't bad per say, they were just overshadowed.

[Telonius]

People do actually complain about that, (hardcore fans mostly) although I would argue that since Michael Clarke Duncan is actually a decent actor and is physically similar to Kingpin in stature (and it would be difficult to find a decent white actor who is) that an effort was made and that it worked out well. He's certainly a better fit than John Rhys-Davies.

I don't see an effort made here. I could be wrong, and I'll wait until I see some clips or a trailer, but these picks do not scream quality to me.


Same here.

There's a bit of a difference with Kingpin, as well. Neither the writers/artists nor character ever made a big deal of his ethnicity, and the setting is supposed to be modern day New York. It's not that much of a stretch for him to be played by any ethnicity at all - because it would make sense that people of any skin tone might be existing in the place he's supposed to be existing. Now if they'd made it a big part of his character backstory that his parents had escaped to America from Eastern Europe during the Cold War, or if his real name were Bjorn Hammarskjald, or something equally marking, a race change might have been a bigger issue. But as it was, there was nothing in the original works specifically tying that character to any particular race, other than the color of the ink they used. People of any race can be huge, bald, and criminal in New York. (It also helped a lot that Duncan's performance was a bright point in an otherwise sucky movie). There were people who grumbled, but they're generally the same sort of folks who complained when the dialogue of the Lord of the Rings movies didn't exactly match the dialogue of the books.

But within the Avatar fantasy world, there's no culture with any sorts of "European" cultural markings - either in names, clothes, customs, writing, foods, religions, festivals, martial arts styles, dance, or general physical appearance. All of that stuff is (fairly explicitly) Asian or Inuit (and in one case, Aztec) within the setting. There are a few passing references to elements of Western culture - a quote from Dante's Inferno on the way to Ba Sing Se, and Toph fighting in what the WWE would probably look like if people could really do bending. But those are notable because they're exceptions to the norm.

[Pokemaster]

On the one hand, appeal to the teenage demographics is probably the casting director's only criterion.

On the other hand, hell yeah, Jason Isaacs!

Besides, there's always the possibility that at least one of the actors is going to be able to replicate the sheer awesome of David Carradine. And now I have to go back to the mythical land of denial.