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imp_fireball
2008-12-20, 04:15 AM
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/9/9d/Zergling.jpg/180px-Zergling.jpg

Zergling

... And it ran about with the speed of a dozen horses, tackling objects with the weight of a sledge hammer, chewing through Artemis's rock golem like it was some kind of oatmeal. I seen demons and their twisted mockeries of our common creatures, but nothing like this proved so deadly. With such a hunger in its soul being to draw blood. Luckily our wizard managed to paralyze before it could cause further catastrophy. It had six souless eyes. I still remember.
- Loremaster Kent Bruckhemmel

Medium Aberration (zerg)
Hit Dice: 5d8+5 (27hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 100' (20 squares land)
Armor Class: 21 (+5 DEX, +5 Natural Armor, +1 Speed), 16 (touch), 15 (flatfooted)
Base Attack/Grapple: +16 on a bite attack; +12 without a bite, +4 intuition check to opposed grapples (+16 opposed)/+3 (BAB)
Attack: Natural Attacks, grapple attacks
Full Attack: (2 talons) +11, 1d8+3 per talon or 1d10+4 (both talons simultaneously; functions like two handed natural weapon) +11; (1 bite) +13, 1d10+6; (rake - 2 claws, 2 talons, 1 gore/1 bite... only applies when grappling), +15 claws, 1d6+3 (per claw); 1d6+3 (gore with both tusks) +14, 1d8+6 (1 bite) +1; 1d8+3 (per talon) +15, 1d10+3(both talons simultaneously) +15; All damage is increased by +3 for every sub-evolutional 'melee' augmentation provided by hive mind (max of 3 provide-able); all attacks threaten 19-20/x2, except scythes (if granted), which threaten 20/x4
Space/Reach: Adjacent
Special Attacks: Lock Jaw, Pounce, Rush, Rake
Special Qualities (feats included): Hive Mind of the Swarm, Fast Healing 1, Improved Natural Multi-Attack, Improved Grapple, Boundless Pathing, Metabollic Synthesis, DR/5 Neosteel, Fire Resistance 1
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +0
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 21, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 4
Skills: Climb +11, Tumble +11, Jump +31, Balance +9,
Feats: Pounce, Natural Weapon Focus (mandibles), Rend Armor
Environment: Any (including vacuum)
Organization: Scout (1 zergling), Pair (2 zerglings), Pack (24 zerglings), Horde (100 zerglings), Swarm (1000+ zerglings)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: At GM discretion
Alignment: N/A (Any if 'rogue' (not a part of the swarm); hive mind removes alignment but does not apply if rogue)
Advancement: As Class, or 4-7HD (medium), 8-12HD (large)
Level Adjustment: +5, +3 (cohort)

Description/background/characteristics

Originally evolved from dune runners on the planet Zz'gash, zerglings attack in great numbers, acting as scouts or make for excellent cannon fodder for the swarm as a whole. Their tough chiton gives them the confidence that they can rend through anything that stands in their way.

Combat

Zerglings will often unburrow, and/or swarm from all sides on a helpless target. They will fight to the death unless ordered away, even if not under the effects of hivemind.

Ability descriptions

Natural Weapons

The number of attacks a zergling may make is limited by its natural weapons. Removing weapons from the zerglings body during combat (cutting off limbs, ie.) limits the attacks it may make.

As a general rule, zerglings have one bite, one gore, two talon attacks (or one if talons are used simultaneously, in which case they count as a two handed weapon), and two attacks of an interchangeable weapon (claw or scythe). They may only bite and use their claws and scythes while grappling or while occupying the same space as their target.

A zergling is limited to three attacks when not grappling (pounce = three attacks), but may make utilize all six natural weapons on a rake when grappling.

Single Minded

A zergling may not grapple and attack in the same round, no matter how many attacks they may make on a full attack action, unless they have the adrenal glands genetic add-on. Additionally, they must occupy the same space as the opponent in order to attack them when biting or using claws or scythes.

If a zergling bites when not grappling, that may be its only natural attack for the round.

Finally, a zerg cannot be distracted by external influences. They receive a +4 to concentration checks.

Single minded is a feature that applies to all zerg that (unless otherwise stated), that with the latter benefits, limits a zerg to only one type of standard action/round (ie. attack or use skill). Sometimes there are circumstances specific to a creature.

Rake: When grappling, a zergling may rake and thus recieves a +4 bonus on all of its natural attacks against the grappled opponent.

Scythe'n'Mandible:
Zerglings of different broods, as well as even those of different hordes may wield different natural weapons. For all intents and purposes, a cerebrate may autonomously replace the natural weapons of a zergling (applies to all zerglings with targeted organization) to either scythe (two scythes, treat as scythe weapon/natural), or claw (+2 bonus to grapple).

Wings:
Wings are an optional investment for a zergling. They do not hinder the zergling in any away, except provide -10' penalty to land speed due to underdeveloped auxiliary sacs within the zergling's complex protein-rooted cyclo-metabollic structure.

Wings add 15' of hovering speed/round which does not stack with regular movement and is optional as part of movement (3 squares max hover distance, although 'running' increases distance on same multiplier as land speed).

Hovering does not provide the creature the ability to elevate itself, rather suspend itself for a single round. A zergling may hover as part of a fall (reduce fall up to 15'), however this costs a swift action (factor into next round if appropriate). A hovering jump grants a zergling a horizontal distance of 15' (running multiplies jump and hover distance as normal). Vertically, hovering offers a +2 to a zergling's jump check (no bonuses provided for horizontal checks, except the hovering distance allowance). Wings do not offer armor check penalties or anything of the like although they can increase a ling's weight by 1/80th of total weight (if GM feels it's necessary).

Chitin: A feature of all creatures of the zerg subtype, chitin acts as both armor and a weapon for the zergling, for it is a material type - in addition to natural armor, it provides DR/1 against all physical attacks + 1 for every genetic add-on assigned by the zerg cerebrate that is associated with zerg carapace.

As a weapon, chitin allows all attacks of a zergling to bypass hardness 20.

Chitin has hardness 20 and 20hp per inch of thickness. Armor upgrades add 1/2 inch of thickness per genetic add-on to a zergling unless stated otherwise.


Adaptation:

Creatures of the zerg subtype can persist in any environment, including vacuum. If there is a DC to survive in an environment over a period of time, zerg apply WIS mod of the cerebrate (commander) + half actual DC to survive in environment to their roll.

Creep

Creep, a material that formulates among and beyond zerg domain (and notifies enemies and of zerg presence (and vice versa); hardness 200/regeneration 50) and provides food for the zerg (which breaks down in their metabolism; and is telepathically softened at feeding time). Even if a creature manages to bite through the impossibly tough material of creep, the material itself is highly poisonous (treat as poison of the highest degree).

Even without creep, consuming even the deadliest of poisons will subsume said poisons in a zerg's phenomenal metabolism.

Lock Jaw: Upon a successful bite attack, the zergling may automatically initiate a grapple with its victim although this will provoke an attack of opportunity. The zergling recieves a +4 to all grapple checks performed in this manner.

Rush (Ex):
Upon a successful pounce (at least one attack hitting), a zergling may initiate a grapple instead of its usual attacks. If the check succeeds, the opponent is automatically pinned (or knocked prone and held, whichever seems applicable). If the check fails, then the opponent may make an opposed check to grapple the zergling, however this provokes the zergling's AoO for that round.

Hive Mind (racial trait):

Offers the affect of alertness and an additional +1 in the skill bonuses provided by alertness as well as will saves for every creature of the same affect within a mile up to five additional creatures. Additionally, all creatures under the affect have a +20 morale bonus against fear effects.

Zerg under the hive mind affect are typically considered to be a part of the swarm. Zerg that are under this affect feel completely compelled to obey anything above them in the greater hierarchy (treat as if dominated; emotions a zerg feels directly imitate those of its cerebrate and obey orders as if it is their lifeblood with literal machine intensity). Other hive minds could include powerful telepaths, however strange they may be.

The presence of an overlord within one mile grants a zerg a +4 to spot and listen per overlord, up to a maximum of +12.

All zerg within 50 miles of an overlord are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flat-footed, none of them are (up to a mile). No zerg in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.

The only thing that can overcome the effect of hive mind on an individual is Dominate (psion/divine/arcane equivalents) which must compete with the boosted will saves granted by hive mind.

Rogue Zerg:

Because zerg have always been known to be under some sort of greater, god-like power, they are typically referred to as 'rogue zerg' should they be completely autonomous over themselves and without hive mind as a trait.

Impossible Endurance: A zerg's metabolism allows it to never ever tire, except through magical means. A zerg can run indefinitely, and does not require the need to make cumulative fortitude saves when a situation would otherwise demand it (ie. when holding breath), unless at GM discretion (ie. resist being blown away by winds that pick up in speed each round). A zerg never sleeps and in the case of a campaign in which a GM rules that LA races have age categories, a zerg will never age.

Burrow 20': May burrow in materials up to whatever hardness a zergling's attacks ignore. For every 10 hardness greater than adamantium, the zergling must make an attack action, and if damage is successful then they may burrow up to half their original burrow limit in the action; hardness that is 20 greater then adamantium cuts the burrow limit/action in half twice (etc.).

They may then make another action to burrow up to their maximum 20' limit (which requires that the process repeat itself).

Genetic Add-ons
Genetic Add-ons are provided by a greater power that supposedly controls all zerg.

Add-ons apply to different zerg creatures of different muta-genic strains (different creature templates). An individual zerg does not have control over what genetic add-ons it recieves (may not apply as a feat, spell, supernatural buff, spell-like ability, trait, etc.). Instead, only the upper hierarchy that control's the hive(s) from which the brood and thus the individual zerg originates, may apply genetic add-ons.

In other words, a GM chooses what genetic add-ons a player might have if she chooses to create a zerg PC. If a player is controlled by a cerebrate whom is also a player, that player chooses what genetic add-ons the former has (after consulting GM of course).

Genetic add-ons usually apply to all zerg within a brood rather then to an individual creature.

Burrow

With this add-on, a zerg may burrow a number of feat listed (usually 20' per size from medium). See burrow descriptor above.

Adrenal Glands

A zergling with this add-on may grapple and rend in the same round, or have twice as many attacks on a full attack action. The zergling provided in the template did not have adrenal glands.

Metabollic Synthesis

The zergling's speed is doubled. The zergling provided in the template had metabollic synthesis (wherein move speed was originally 50').

Sub-Evolutions

Sub-Evolutions are a special feats that can be granted to creatures of the zerg template in place of all other feats.

The zergling provided had no sub-evolutions.

Natural Armor Spikes: Treat as if you have armor spikes. You must have at least +1 natural armor bonus to acquire this sub-evolution.

Poisonous Armor Spikes: Your spikes are naturally poisoned. Poisoned victims lose there constitution over a period of days (equal to poisoner's ECL/their total CON mod at point of poisoning).

Corrosive Natural Weapon: Your natural weapon deals acid damage as well as its initial damage. Items/Creatures that are ordinarily acid resistant force a FORT save versus their resistance (remove resistance for that damage upon success). Items damaged in such a way add +5 to the DC to repair them.

Rend Armor

A zerg may rend armor as the rend armor ability.

Writhe

A zerg receives a +20 circumstantial modifier to escape artist checks when not otherwise impeded in any way, however this only counts as a +4 intuition bonus on grapple checks to escape being grappled.

Disparrate Action: Your severed limbs have a life of their own. Their speed is equal to your speed/10 (ie., 150' speed = 15' speed in each limb). Limbs can attack and deal natural attack damage according to what they are (ie. a severed claw deals natural damage according to what the claws on the template are said to do and have the same attack bonuses). Severed limbs also have hp equal to total hp of creature/10 if smallest (tiny for a medium creature) and twice that if largest (small for a medium creature). They will also die after a three minutes + CON mod of creature. They do not re-attach to creature unless the creature has regeneration.

Severed limbs are treated as tiny or small for medium creatures, medium and small for large creatures, etc.

Their are plenty of other sub-evolutions available as well.

NOTE: Psionic sub-evolutions only apply to psionic zerg. A zerg that receives psionic sub-evolutions is considered psychic.

- Improved Natural Multi-attack
- Boundless Pathing
- Augmented Critical
- Quicken ability (from list of template abilities)
- Improved Fast Healing
- Improved Natural Attack
- Improved Natural Armor
- Natural Weapon Focus (body part)
- Greater Natural Weapon Focus (body part)
- Natural Weapon Specialization (body part)
- Greater Natural Weapon Specialization (body part)
- Improved Diehard
- Multi-pin
- Walk-over Pin
- Extraneous resistance (additional resistance/ECL to any chosen damage type except alignment based damage)

Some sub-evolutions are also subtype specific traits:
- Wings
- Change natural weapon (arguably with ups and downs in comparison to the previous one)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Zerglings as PCs

- +6 natural armor

- Size Medium

- Alignment is N/A if given the hive-mind of the swarm trait (no traits indicates 'rogue', in which case, alignment can be any although undercut by a baser animal instinct, such as to attack anything it fears rather then run away)

- +6 racial bonus to climb checks

- +6 str, +10 dex, +2 CON, -6 CHA, INT becomes 2

- +3 BAB, five levels of aberration (5d8 = hp prior to PC levels) and two feats (can be sub-evolutions)

- Fire resistance 1 (replaces any other racial fire resistance)

- Susceptibility to genetic add-ons at GM discretion

- Zerglings retain all the special attacks and qualities prior to acquiring PC levels (burrow, lock jaw, chitin, etc.) as well as the zerg template

- Non-humanoid

- Vocally Limited (racial trait)

Zerglings do not have a language as their larynx aren't properly equipped for such utterances (beyond 'skraaah' and 'skreeh'), instead communicating in telepathic emotions; only telepaths may communicate with a zerg directly (wild empathy checks will yield nothing) and even then, a zerg's emotions are so foreign that it can be at times impossible to make sense of it. It has been theorized that this is perhaps due to its wholly alien nature. In reality, life without hive mind hasn't properly been coded into it's genetic structure, from a scientific stand point; it must as such learn to adapt. A zergling cannot learn new languages with an int modifier except perhaps new means of telepathy (at GM discretion, a zergling might learn to communicate in common, but only telepathically to telepathic individuals).


Behavior

A zergling may communicate telepathically with other zerglings, however it's often exceptionally low charisma makes the hive mind method of communication, much more convenient for even non-trifling purposes.

Hive mind indicates that a zergling is under the command of a greater power. Hive mind for zerg is particularly strong in that it can cut out even the basic emotions of fear and lust in an individual zerg and instead create rage and a raw desire for destruction from these emotional 'building blocks'. This is further augmented by genetic engineering which hard codes an animal-like kill instinct in otherwise sentient creatures.

As such, all zerg generally operate the same under hive mind (aside from their designated specification, ie. that of a zergling over that of a drone), however no one zerg is completely alike as some of the same creatures may utilize seperate tactics from one another for the greater will of the swarm if ordered to.

If a cerebrate has not made a decision about a particular entity that a zerg discovers, they will usually attack it on sight.

Plot Hook/Story if any

A zergling is the byproduct of many theories as to how it came to be (from demons, magical creation; or the most accurate of all: an inter-dimensional interruption, etc.), when in reality it may have broke off in the warp at one point and landed in a village. A zergling could also be a part of the swarm in its goal to infest the galaxy (in which case, it has 'hive mind' as a trait) and has arrived on a planet to further this goal along with thousands/millions of others of its subtype that will soon appear.

Zerg Template

- All zerg have fast healing equivalent to their CON modifier (at least 1 no matter any penalties)

- If 'hive mind' applies, than so does 'single minded'

- Burrow 20'

- Scent (unless listed otherwise)

- Darkvision 160'

- Impossible Endurance

- Adaptation; Can persist in any environment, hot or cold, or gravity dense. Since zerg do not breathe, they can exist in vacuum as well.

- Cold, electric, sonic, acid, and fire resistance 10

- Zerg cannot be affected by disease except magically and may consume anything without affect to their body's rapid metabolism (even the deadliest of poisons unless specified otherwise by GM houserule)

- Zerg do not sleep, or breathe. They feed themselves with creep, which only their rapid metabolism is capable of processing. Creep, softening when a zerg telepathically communicates its desire to feed to an overlord, keeps a zerg fed for up to two weeks/meal.

- May recieve genetic add-ons according to their creature (view genetic add-ons section for more info)

- May select from a list of sub-evolutions (zerg bonus feats) instead of regular feats, when selecting feats. Lists can be customized at GM discretion, and the sub-evolutions are essentially anything applied to the specific zerg creature that makes it more grotesque, scary, bashy, etc.

- Chitin (natural armor becomes adamantine; NA bonus is at least +4 unless listed otherwise)

- Hivemind of the Swarm; except under special circumstances at GM discretion, all creatures of the zerg template have hivemind of the swarm

- Most zerg have non-humanoid as the racial trait

- Vocally Limited (racial trait)

You cannot speak language due to a natural limitation (or variety of such limitations), however you may still make other sounds beyond language. You are also subject to other exceptions.

- Zerg recieve all the basic benefits ordinarily acquired from their new ECL upon acquiring the Zerg template

Ie. If a goblin is assimilated into the swarm, then it becomes ECL 9. It recieves an additional 4d8 hit die (assuming it was a warrior at its pre-zerg state) and an additional +4 BAB as well as two new feats and saving throws as if it were a warrior of 5th level however it does not receive any other benefits suited to the warrior if the warrior had acquired any other abilities. A cerebrate may apply flaws to the zerg goblin in order to grant it additional abilities - essentially tricks that are taught as handle animal but more intricate and often times immediately applicable - however these must be sub-evolutions.

- LA +4

- CR +3

Hypothetical Ancestor

Z'gashi Dunerunner

Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50' (10 squares land)
Armor Class: 14 (+3 DEX, +1 Natural Armor), 13 (touch), 11 (flatfooted)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0 (+4 to checks to escape being grappled)
Full Attack: 2 Talon-like Claws (+0 1d4/+0 1d4)
Space/Reach: Adjacent
Special Attacks: Pounce, Rake
Special Qualities: Improved Endurance, +4 to escape grapples, Preservation
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +0
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Tumble +7, Jump +8
Feats: Run
Environment: Z'gashi Dunes
Organization: Pack (24 Dune Runners), Routing (100+ Dune Runners)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: Nothing
Alignment: True Neutral
Advancement: 1-4 HD (medium), 5-8 (large)
Level Adjustment: +1

Z'gashi Dunerunners, or zerglings before assimilation into the swarm, were carnivorous creatures that inhabited the dunes of the planet Z'gash. Despite physical weakness, they were highly coordinated and hunted in packs with alarming tactical efficiency. Their ability to hibernate and persist in extremes of temperature was what allowed them to propagate and so please the overmind.

Improved Endurance (Ex)

With this ability, a creature can force march for 16 hours instead of 8. They can go for a week without suffering from lack of sleep and can hustle for 12 hours before taking nonlethal damage, or run for 2 hours given a four hours interval of walking (by travel, not necessarily limited in combat) in between, after which they can either hustle or run again.

Preservation (Ex)

Dunerunners can live for up to a week without food or hydration, able to conserve energy in much the same way as they can last without sleep.

ErrantX
2008-12-20, 07:04 AM
A bit strong for a critter that exists to attack in numbers. The strength of the zergling is en masse attack, as I'm sure you're aware.

-X

Xefas
2008-12-20, 07:12 AM
A bit strong for a critter that exists to attack in numbers. The strength of the zergling is en masse attack, as I'm sure you're aware.

-X

Though I wonder what the CR for a Terran Marine in full power armor and a fully-automatic gauss rifle would be in standard D&D terms. Those are the ones that a Zergling is suppose to be fighting, right?

Hmmm...the Zergling's saving throw modifiers are not filled in.

Demented
2008-12-20, 09:06 AM
"Zerglin's" can be roadkilled by your average heavy duty truck.

That said, he did say it's the Zergling to End All Zerglings... So apparently instead of being roadkilled, this Zergling will eat the aforementioned truck, hub caps and all.

It also has saves of "+". I'm positively terrified.

Solaris
2008-12-20, 09:13 AM
So... mob rules from DMG II?

arguskos
2008-12-20, 09:14 AM
It also has saves of "+". I'm positively terrified.
"Bob! Use a grenade! Quick!"
"But it might jump outta the way, with that great +!!!"
"We're DOOOOOOOMED!!!"
-Two Marines

Also, I am curious as to why this thing is CR 10, though it's a great rendition of the Zergling. I'm hoping to see many more Zerg in the days to come. :smallwink:

Athaniar
2008-12-20, 01:38 PM
I agree that it's pretty powerful for a regular zergling, but it would fit well for a more powerful variant. Also, Medium Zerg Aberration should probably be Medium Aberration (Zerg) (I assume Zerg is its subtype). And I think "chitin" is the proper term, too. Otherwise, it looks good.

Solaris
2008-12-20, 04:44 PM
Hmm, yes, a-ha. Curse you, Imp. You put a homebrewin' bug in my brain.

Bergett
2008-12-20, 05:00 PM
dear god, that thing would obliterate anything in a swarm:smalleek:

Limos
2008-12-20, 08:22 PM
Really I would think that all the basic units in the Starcraft universe would run circles around DnD monsters.

Your basic marine is wearing power armor, has a fully automatic Gauss rifle (with optional depleted uranium slugs) and is hopped up on stim packs.

It usually takes 2 zerglings to take on a lone marine.

Sure that one zergling gets roadkilled, but you have to realize that in the DnD world that would be a very large, very heavy, very fast projectile hitting a creature about the size of a large dog. Blunt force trauma is a whole different beast from bullets.

Recaiden
2008-12-20, 08:36 PM
It seems pretty strong for DnD, but this is something that is about the power level of a trained soldier in power armor with a guass rifle, so it's a bit strong. I think it's still a bit too strong. I think a CR 7 or 8 with 60-70 hp would be better. And maybe a speed of 50.

imp_fireball
2008-12-20, 10:07 PM
Speed of 50 is ridiculously slow, considering that's 40km/h at full running speed (rough calculation of 3 feet to a meter), and I'm pretty sure a zergling barelling down the battlefield at least twice as fast as a wolf. Zerglings are really fast, last I checked. The only thing that's faster in the game is the vulture, and the vulture uses an 'ion drive', which is something utilized on space shuttles right now.

Metabollic boost is what makes the zergling really fast, in addition to the fact that it has four running limbs, in addition to the fact that impossible endurance realistically means it can probably hurl itself at anything with all its effort, which is what it does.

If a truck weighing a few tons barrels down a highway and then impacts with a zergling already moving with enough force to halt the zergling's path, then that'd probably do roughly 90 damage and kill the zergling (at which point it's still twitching on the ground). It might not be canon, but meh.

Also, gauss rifles are what it takes to stop zerglings. Gauss does ridiculous damage. :smallwink:

The only things more ridiculous are nukes and yamato guns, which do not one shot ultralisks, btw (even low yield would still be a lot of damage, otherwise what's the use of a nuke)?


A bit strong for a critter that exists to attack in numbers. The strength of the zergling is en masse attack, as I'm sure you're aware.

-X

Yes, but then compare STR to other zerg, and the zergling's puny. :smalltongue:

Not to mention it'd be awesome to see each 'ling awesome blow everyone like a bull. If it were a cinematic that is. >_>

ZerglingOne
2008-12-22, 05:55 PM
I felt it appropriate to post here. It's clearly a Devouring One for purposes of damage. In this case, it would have adrenal glands and metabolic boost. Keep in mind that it could a normal zergling that was the unfortunate recipient of a plane shift spell. Such a creature that is meant to tear through diamond-hard power armor would be frightening to medieval DnD adventurers. OH, by the way, you should give it up to DR 3/-, and up to +3 damage with its melee attacks, you know, to signify the damage and armor evolutions available.

MajoraMasquerad
2008-12-22, 10:27 PM
When we played my DM used the zergs off of korinth.com

I don't know if this is allowed but here is the URL

http://www.korinth.com/3eKorinthContent/Monsters/3.5/zerg_swarm.shtml

UnChosenOne
2008-12-23, 12:30 AM
Look's quite good. Ya know. The Zerglings can kill marines (well it take two ling's to kill one, but still) in powered-amor and because that they shouldn't be something that our first level warior kill's daily.

Neithan
2008-12-23, 12:58 AM
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/9/9d/Zergling.jpg/180px-Zergling.jpg
When I saw this, I was thinking about:

"Zerg-Tarrasque!" ^^

SurlySeraph
2008-12-23, 01:38 AM
I have to agree with ZerglingOne's statement that these stats fit a Devouring One better. These are extremely powerful.
DR 5 is quite a lot, especially given the fast healing and hit points, and doesn't seem really warranted. 5 Natural Armor would make more sense.
I'd definitely remove the DR 20 on Total Defense clause. That's huge, and Zerglings never really try to defend themselves - they just try to rip their enemies apart faster.
I know that a crowd of Zerglings can rip a building apart pretty quickly, but letting it conditionally ignore 50 hardness *and* remove hardness equal to half its total damage (factoring in the large amount of damage it'll do on a full attack) *and* get the large amount of damage from Rend Armor is both excessive (it basically turns walls into tissue paper) and overly complicated. Just let its attacks ignore 30 hardness (which is still a lot, given that even adamantine has only 20 hardness).


If a truck weighing a few tons barrels down a highway and then impacts with a zergling already moving with enough force to halt the zergling's path, then that'd probably do roughly 90 damage and kill the zergling (at which point it's still twitching on the ground). It might not be canon, but meh.

According to the d20 Modern SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/msrdvehiclesmovementandcombat.rtf), a truck (a Huge object) moving at highway speed would do 12d8 damage, for an average of 54 damage. So, a bit less than that. And, if I remember correctly, he braked right before he hit it, which would reduce the damage further. However, for a Devouring One (rather than a weak little normal 'ling), the HP make sense.


Also, gauss rifles are what it takes to stop zerglings. Gauss does ridiculous damage. :smallwink:

Well, according to the d20 Future SRD... Oh, wait, they don't stat out Gauss rifles there. Never mind. :smallamused:


The only things more ridiculous are nukes and yamato guns, which do not one shot ultralisks, btw (even low yield would still be a lot of damage, otherwise what's the use of a nuke)?

Um... besides almost every other weapon in the game? 6 damage isn't much in Starcraft. By DnD standards the Gauss rifle would do a lot more, of course, but I'm not following your logic here.


Yes, but then compare STR to other zerg, and the zergling's puny. :smalltongue:

In DnD, humans cannot reach 28 STR without magic. A typical human has 10 STR, and 18 STR is exceptional. I fail to see how a Zergling, being the size of a dog, can possibly be that much stronger than a human. More vicious and dangerous, certainly, but 28 STR is definitely excessive. That's building-toppling strength. 18-22 is more than enough.

imp_fireball
2008-12-23, 04:41 PM
They use the strength to send people hurdling like play-blocks and to dig tunnels through metal structures. Not to mention that kinda strength is more like 'smash through drywall in a swift action like its nothing' strength really (whereas 18 strength means 'smash through drywall with a couple of attack actions'). And that's pretty zergish, imo.

I might append the hardness issue (maybe bypass 10 hardness instead of 30.... though I'm pretty sure adamantine was hardness 30; but don't forget neo-steel, used only on terran battlecruisers, is hardness 100 :smallwink: ).

Also, you mention the fact that they're the size of dogs. By that logic, how can a dog be shot several times and still be moving?

The total defense DR came from the brood war intro cinematic, where the zerglings stop and seem to absorb the spikes that a marine sends their way. Of course, that would probably mean more like DR 80 (around max damage of a gauss rifle I would estimate; if they were completely unfazed) but that would be ridiculous.


When I saw this, I was thinking about:

"Zerg-Tarrasque!" ^^


Oh **** Torrasque!

http://www.blizzard.com/us/inblizz/fanart/images/screens/ss687.jpg
NVM, it's just a puny ultralisk (size gargantuan/collossal)



http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG240.jpg
Now there's a real tarrasque. Can you believe that it has over 800hp? Now imagine a regular ultralisk.

imp_fireball
2008-12-23, 06:01 PM
According to the d20 Modern SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/msrdvehiclesmovementandcombat.rtf), a truck (a Huge object) moving at highway speed would do 12d8 damage, for an average of 54 damage. So, a bit less than that. And, if I remember correctly, he braked right before he hit it, which would reduce the damage further. However, for a Devouring One (rather than a weak little normal 'ling), the HP make sense.


Don't forget that the power of plot in the cinematic involving the driver could have dealt a critical strike to the zergling. ;)

'Lings aren't weak in any case. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, but I'm trying to somewhat abide by the restrictions of the game (aside from the many disproportions) while injecting realism appropriate with a proper campaign associated with this setting.

Let me make it clear, a 'ling is not a dog. Maybe you might find a little kid's big dog wrastlin' with a zergling in a fanfic for family fun, but it's completely non-canon. Because a soldier could step into the yard in CMC-400 armor and get his head torn off after a grapple from the same 'ling.



Well, according to the d20 Future SRD... Oh, wait, they don't stat out Gauss rifles there. Never mind. :smallamused:


D20 future is quite trivial, no? I think 3.5 is more suitable. Want to GM a future setting? Cut out the magic (classes, items, etc.) and inject technology (homebrew if necessary... it's plain unfortunate if nobody's bothered to place all that much technology into 3.5 let alone sci-fi). If I have the time to delve further into the zerg template, I might even include spells specific to zerg (however it would definitely not swing into a starcraft setting) along with territory development (compare it to territory development for humans in the middle ages and development for terrans who have the technology to vastly accelerate the process). I've already made a few zerg specific feats (sub-evolutions) and traits (hive mind is all there is so far).



Um... besides almost every other weapon in the game? 6 damage isn't much in Starcraft. By DnD standards the Gauss rifle would do a lot more, of course, but I'm not following your logic here.


Nukes cost alot for what they do (if you ever played starcraft, you wouldn't use nukes until you reached a stalemate with your opponent), that's what I'm saying. 6 damage is proportionate to starcraft. In starcraft things are out of proportion (how else does an ultralisk pop out of a larva? In any case, the egg would grow to be a lot larger before hand). Maybe in the future, I'll include rules for spawning and summoning zerg.

Pirate_King
2008-12-24, 12:47 AM
difference of worlds aside, the zergling fluff makes it a weak, expendable unit, and putting it in a d20 system ruleset should reflect that. if you also made rules for a terran marine, you wouldn't necessarily do it with the idea that it would be super-powerful compared to the normal D&D classes, you'd do it to fit the system. That aside, the D&D world already has zerg; they're called Kruthik

imp_fireball
2008-12-24, 01:11 AM
First off: A terran doesn't really go as a class of its own. That's like saying a battlecruiser should be a class of its own (descrip: you are skilled fly into the battlefield in a deadly interstellar metal behemoth with lasers and nuclear-dirived fireballs... which you don't have, you gotta buy it for (equivalent to exchange rate) a few trillion plat pieces). This is for realism rather then 'balance'. Although balance does factor out if you include ECL (the CR states that it should be appropriate for a part of mostly 8th level characters).

You could also say there's already zerg out there, they're called, tyranids, borg, every zombie from every zombie horror flick, klendathu, those worms from slither, vampires.... the list goes on.

The point is, each has their own distinct list of appropriated monsters, and with work, their own unique template, despite being on the same principal of assimilation into a commune (or at least the notion of making them one of its kind). Why am I doing this? Because it's fun.

That's what this experiment is for, k thx bai.

Knaight
2008-12-24, 01:11 AM
One thing you could use, borrowed from Fudge, is tech scale. Basically you divide things up into tech levels, then future technology gains a bonus over past technology that depends on how many levels ahead it is.
For instance:
1.Stone Age
2.Bronze Age
3.Iron Age
4.Medieval
5.Rome, Byzantine (D&D about here, given magic)
6.Renaissance
7.Modern
8.Early Future
9.Medium Future(Starcraft here)
10.Far Future

Then you would just have DR and spell resistance per level, as per a chart. For example
levels ahead/DR/save bonus on spells:
1/5/10
2/10/20
3/20/50
4/50/100

So the Zergling would be statted out as probably a 1 or 2 hit die creature, but is tech level 9, meaning that against D&D world creatures it gets 50 DR, and +100 to resist spells, although all the half damage/partial effect stuff would still apply.

DR and spell resistance isn't necessarily the best mechanic, another that could work is for people to only take a certain amount of damage and have a certain extra chance to resist save or dies. So for example
levels ahead/all damage is divided by/number of extra rolls against save or die spells
1/1.5/1
2/2.25/2
3/3.5/3
4/5/4

So a zergling would probably be a 2 hit die creature, maybe 13 HP, but it only takes 1/16 as much damage from attacks, meaning that in order to instantly kill it one would have to hit it with 65 damage, ignoring damage resistance, which would probably be in the 0-3 range(depending on carapace structure, as per upgrades), which translates into the 0-15 range. A marine, meanwhile would be a first level fighter with a gauss rifle(1d10 damage), full plate armor equivalent, etc.

Quick estimates:
Zergling. HD 2, 13 HP, AC 14, Claws +2 1d6+2 slashing.
Marine. HD 2, 16 HP, AC 18, Gauss Rifle +2 1d10 piercing, 100 feet.
Hydralisk. HD 3, 19 HP, AC 20, Spines +3 1d8+3 piercing, 110 feet.

Composite bows would transfer into guns with strength bonus, with anyone with too little strength unable to deal with recoil well.

imp_fireball
2008-12-24, 01:20 AM
That destroys the purpose though. The purpose is for realism.

It's also slightly for convenience. If a GM wants to quickly merge worlds, he probably would dislike mixing through all the unecessary jibber jabber that was created for 'balance'.

Not to mention production level is just stupid. I'm sorry, but progress can't be accurately measured in a civilization by saying 'it immediately changed here'. There's many different elements that have to come into play. Not to mention the zerg existed for millions of years, so how many progress levels would that surpass? That's why I intend to flesh out a sort of societal structure (the zerg don't have technology either, which is another point... they merely learn and become more powerful under an already powerful deity).

The idea is that, if this were a hollywood film and a guy with a sword went up against a zergling, there should be the slighest chance that said guy could wound the zergling and then the zergling could fall in a random pit (critical strike from sword, zergling fails reflex save and falls through collapsing ground and is ultimately killed; hero wins). It may call for complexities, but in the end, it's all for the sake of 'fun'. That's the main purpose of all this.

You can't replace composite bows with guns, because what if composite bows were to appear a long with guns? It's fantasy! Anything can happen. Each should be statted out differently if it goes into the same system, for the sake of fun. Instead of completely invoking a name change between composite bows and guns, why not provide guns on the list of items PCs may purchase? Change proficiencies around for classes like say a fighter. Include features for classes like the barbarian (or remove the class completely). If imbalanced, give free levels to a player to balance it out. It's complicated but its fun. Pen and Paper is wholly complicated. More so then a board game. And yet people play it because it allows stretching of the imagination. By applying these mechanics, it makes for imagination and mechanics to merge more effectively.

Maybe my zergling still needs some fine tuning. I'll check tomorrow.

imp_fireball
2009-01-02, 10:29 PM
Double Post Update:

I changed the strength a little to compensate for the apparently higher BAB that aberrations usually have. If you guys like a zergling that can deal ridiculous amounts of damage, as in "Jimmy watch out for that 'ling! *half second later* Oh jeeze, looks like he lost his torso and I can't even recognize him anymore! Good thing we're wearing CMC armor."

Otherwise, higher BAB and power attack strong-arming lings for great justice.

I also added another trait that all zerglings receive in contrast with wolves. Where wolves have +2 to trip, zerglings have +2 to grapple. I could always imagine lings as clinging to huge/gargantuan sized behemoths (not necessarily vehicles that have no chance of making opposed checks, but goliaths/etc.). As such, what could have been terran armored core/mobile suits essentially ends with the goliath and begins with the firebat (since fire gets rid of a ling pretty efficiently if actually getting the creature off you means killing it first).

Finally, 'lings can be pets at certain PC levels! Whether this could be through a handle animal check (3 int basically means all tricks for convenience). So far I've mentioned they can be 'tamed'. Perhaps I'll include methods of summoning them as animal companions or allowing wild class variants to take a hold of them if that's acceptable among the lot of you.

MageSparrowhawk
2009-01-03, 12:19 AM
to be honest (and for future creature-building fun) you're probably going to want to tone these guys down. at least 3-4 CR. Granted, there is a lot to be said for the difference between a fighter in fullplate and a marine in a suit of powered neo-steel armor. the biggest problem here is...how strong are hydra's? mutalisks? dare I say Ultralisks? where you're sitting right now, and ultralisk is going to be upwards of a CR 50something. which is probably never going to get used, however awesome it is.

What I recomend you doing is toning this guy down to a CR 3 or 4, and balancing it at that level. Then you/we can get on to making fun stuff like Hydras and roaches and all sorts of cool stuff.

Another big problem you're forgetting here...all Zerg creatures except for Overlords, Queens (more so in SC2), Kerrigan, and the Overmind himself, are mindless. that means no skill points, no feats, just "scree!" *bite*claw*.

Other than those two things...(and a couple minor complaints that don't need to be addressed for a while) this looks fine. :biggrin:

imp_fireball
2009-01-03, 05:26 AM
But ultras are made to stop armies in their tracks. And the only thing that stops an ultra rush with terran is a blockade of tanks/goliaths (nothing can get by tanks, absolutely NOTHING concerning damage soak up; a tank volley quickly adds up to forces in excess of a nuclear blast after a few rounds, punches through D-matrix like butter... TvT is painful for me).

The adrenal glands upgrade on the zergling should allow a single ling to tear through more then one marine like butter at top performance, unless the marine uses stims (which can ridiculously tip the balance again).

Mutas are like friggen dragons themselves, with their unique glaive wurm breath weapon attack. It takes some time for a single marine to down a muta (that's where you send plenty of marines). Having many marines around is key to marine survival on the battlefield.

For normal PCs being implemented, that's easy too; technology changes a lot of things. If your barbarian is already epic level, put him a suit of CMC armor which augments his STR bonuses, his rage as well as his fast movement (since it's a multiplier and it tones down on armor checks). When it comes down to it, CR 50 is still a tough challenge for a high level party, but becomes more reasonable with scifi tech in place (tech does not replace magic, it should be independent to allow this; ie. the power suit would raise ECL).

What I'm saying is, CR is usually directed towards a solo. In retrospect, usually an entire army of marines would realistically be directed at an ultra (or an omegalisk for that matter). Also, consider that a big bad ultra might be better at one thing, however several zerglings (even though each is a fifth the CR of the ultra, presumably) would rip the ultra to shreds, because an ultra is limited in its attacks (for fluff, the zerglings would use movement tactics to avoid the lethal great cleave snuffing too many of them). Most of this is for the sake of battlefield engagement, and when you send certain creatures meant for a purpose up against creatures meant for another purpose, that's where balance comes into play (CR still exists for party functions, of course).

Eventually, the goal is to tune this until it actually becomes applicable to have a starcraft battle within the midst of a roleplaying session with the added flare of mechanical characteristics and traits in appropriation with submersive realism. Zerg use skills on behalf of the overmind. But some zerg are limited in skill usage (zerglings have 2 + int). Others have special abilities (defiler). Instead I applied fluff accordingly in association with rather then having the hive mind remove all intelligence (which would probably render them dead), it controls there emotions and directs their intelligence.

Even the cerebrates on some level are like this (although the stronger ones such as daggoth had more independance as they inevitably adapted away from the hive mind strain after thousands of years of being more or less self conscious but tied in some way to subservience).

Get the picture now?

Demented
2009-01-03, 06:05 AM
you're probably going to want to tone these guys down. at least 3-4 CR.

That would probably depend on your campaign setting.

If the standard fighter in full plate is level 1, with 10 hitpoints and an ordinary longsword, a CR 3 zergling would be free to eat its way through the local village.

If the standard fighter in full plate is level 6, with some 35 hitpoints, a +2 flaming burst longsword and full mithril plate with the fortification property, you'll need a CR 8 zergling to trouble the town guard.

(But where does a level 6 fighter get all that gear?)

MageSparrowhawk
2009-01-03, 02:39 PM
@Imp_fireball: now...what if you don't want to throw in full Sci-Fi attributes into your game of D&D? (namely, a fantasy game) What if you want Zerg that are just some strange type of monster hiding in a jungle somewhere? And yes, Ultralisks can stop armies. But in this case, the armies don't have Siege tanks and Goliaths. They have catapults and archers.

That kind of setting is much more 'realistic' for a game of D&D. There are very few groups that I know of that would want to play/enjoy playing a game like that.

Granted, I can see how cool a setting like that would be, but it seems like it would be much easier and more accessible to a normal D&D group to have creatures that could be just added in, no retconning the entire world. Or changing of characters either.

and something to note? CR is not aimed at 'soloing' something. it represents a difficulty of one encounter out of four per day of a party of the same level as the creature's CR. It also happens to just about equal a character of the same level.

also...nearly all zerg (like I stated before) are mindless. Int:- and for this I know what I'm talking about. I can talk Starcraft lore all day long, and this is a major facet of their Zergy-ness. It does not 'render them dead', they function as the overmind's body. It is the mind, they are the body. The Cerebrates, Overlords, and Queens are the nerves that transmit the thoughts to the body.


@Demented: I was just doing a rough estimate for how strong a Zergling would have to be to be 'believable' as a nasy little bugger, but weak enough to be used in masses. Granted, the campaign setting point is very valid...it's actually pretty much what I was saying above...

tigerhawkvok
2009-01-03, 05:06 PM
Hm, SC *gives* you hitpoints. 'Lings aren't that powerful, they should be CR 3-4, about 35 hitpoints. Raze small villages, pwn real stuff in large numbers, but pretty pathetic on their own. A gauss rifle (think "gun" with maybe 2x firing rate) takes them out pretty quickly ... and what, a *rifle* is 2d8 damage? A level 5 fighter should be about the equivalent of a marine, and it should have a hard time beating a zergling, but it should be able to do it.

Really, it does kill commoners at CR3-4. A commoner (dude without armor) is 1d4 HP (so, with a d6+str attack it'd pwn the guy), a standard marine walking around with no armor maybe would be ... 2d10-5d10? So 10-25 HP? 1d6+str attack (say, 2 attacks per round) should do that in less than four rounds, IE, take out an armorless marine in less than 30 seconds.

Nice idea, but way overpowered. If a Zergling is CR8, what's a Zealot? CR 16 or better? Hell, a DT that kills 'lings in 1 hit with a bit to spare would have to be dealing .... 3d20+50 damage on a D&D scale?

[Scaled] Dark Templar
Special Attack: Devastating Attack. A DT using Devastating Attack forgoes all other attacks this round. This attack deals 3d20+50 damage, and can only be used if a DT has a Psi Sword.
BAB: +18
HP: 105
Armor: Protoss Shields -- This shield absorbs up to 150 damage of an attack then collapses. Any remainder of the shield carries over onto following rounds. It regenerates at the rate of 10 HP at the beginning of each turn.
Speed: 100' (It is not 3x slower than a zergling)
Special Quality: A Dark Templar is permenantly invisible, as Greater Invisibility.
[Etc]
CR: 24

etc. That's probably a bit low on HP, too, seeing as a real DT has 5x HP (including sheild) as a zergling, which would be 300 HP or so total.. Again, nice idea, but too strong by at least a factor of two.

imp_fireball
2009-01-03, 08:47 PM
To the person above me: Try not to make too many judgements of a marine. A marine is at best, a level 1 warrior with specific training (maybe level 2 with neural resocialization in check). The guns and armor actually increase the marines ECL to about 9. Technology makes a huge difference. In real history, the spanish (with gunpowder) slaughtered natives like cattle. Don't fret though, technology could alter magic too. Even a wizard will need to wear a spacesuit (special variety without spell failure).

Setting:
If the zerg are a strange type of monster hiding in the jungle somewhere, then you could always provide them in less quantities. Really, you could draw up an adventure wherein some crazy cultists summoned them, unknowing that it would eventually herald the destruction of the world.

You could also have weaker zerg (I'll include variencies for that), but be warry that the zergling I listed are the ones utilised for when the overmind actually gets serious (as in seriously, this place is going down and it'll take an army with 0.6km length spaceships and nukes to stop me, I swear to god!).

You can't sub new rules for world devouring zerg, because if its more to do with realism than frankly, a battlecruiser really is a powerhouse of destruction (several laser turrets and a yamato gun, collosal size +++ (600 meters in length)... a couple of CR 50 ultralisks should be an even match).

To see my point: It seems kind of ridiculous that just a few hyper-accelerated bullets should asplode a zergling like a beef patty, where that would be the case in CR 3-4 (instead a dozen should). A rifle might do 2d8 damage, an elephant rifle might do 2d12 (or 4d6, depends) damage, but what of a gauss rifle? They fire 'hyperaccelerated' rounds. Rounds that travel so fast, they actually add damage modifiers due to breaking the sound barrier by a few degrees. Not to mention the guass rifle is automatic (though maybe I could include rules for it powering down).

A zergling has a lot of hp, it can take several hits, although it has the appearance that it can't. Adventurers will discover that they may have to cut a creature into many pieces before it finally dies. In 'speed of darkness' there's a zergling described as leaking vital organs as it continues to barrel towards its target. Lots of hp. ;)

Command Structure: The cerebrates transmit thoughts to the zerg, although they don't need these thoughts to guide them (rogue zerg group together to kill each other under rogue telepathic entities such as overlords). Zerg learn and reason and transmit what they see to their commanders too (it's been written in the novels that zerg would adopt new strategies during the time that they are unable to achieve immediate victory), however intelligence doesn't mean independance. And independance doesn't indicate intelligence. Zerg never rebel because cerebrates basically control their emotions. Zerg seem like animals because they are actually incapable of speech, built for one purpose, to wage war.

Dark Templar: Dark Templar have blades channelled from the void itself and a combination of psychic energy. It shouldn't be psion manifested (the blades are manufactured with alien technology superior to that of humans and activated by psion ability). The blades can pretty much cut through anything if you bring it close to the material (now imagine it being swung, BAM). They don't emit too much heat, because it's psychic energy, however they glow most likely due to transplanar qualities (photons leaking through that veil of dark energy). In D&D terms, such a weapon is a very fantastic device.

Protoss shields are very powerful, but don't usually regenerate that fast (it's alot slower, say 2-3hp/round). It isn't so much as a halo shield (very weak; absorbs seven or so gunshots but regenerate quickly).

Dark Templar don't necessarily need a lot of hp (isn't hp about 60 in starcraft?). Most of that hp would be given as a result of armor. Also, dark templar, like zealots have trained many decades to reach what they've come to (I'd say protoss have been rooted in a very long techno stalemate, whereas the terran progress like wildfire) which is where a lot of levels come from, too. Protoss of the templar caste also pride themselves on development/transgression of their own being.

Finally, a DT is a protoss (close to size large, maybe the height of a half giant) with odd legs (+10 racial bonus to speed?). With the void carrying them a long, that could give them up to +20 speed max. I'd say a darktemplar's speed is 60'. Pretty darn quick. Nevertheless, when a battle is raging they need to get the job done yesterday. When an enemy is caught by surprise (dark templar specialty), they should dead very fast, not given thirty seconds to wheel around in panic.

Also, devastating attack should replace sneak attack; since its a special sneak attack the Dark Templar would perform and require greater invisibility in order to do the maneuver. If a Dark Templar had sneak attack from another class, devastating attack would replace it.

Marines: Marines on the other hand have targetting reticles and computers that actually have motion prediction and tell the marine where to shoot. A marine is trained to become uber-familiar with their CMC's own interface ("My interface is my friend! Without me, my interface is useless! Without my interface, I am useless!" Etc...).

If all this seems overpowered, know that besides the fact that starcraft is sci-fi (500 years in the future), it's rooted in a world who's history has been mostly war up until 'present' and a third industrial revolution (spaceships, nukes commonplace, etc.). Things are slightly over the top as such. It's fairly war-hammery, with other influences ('alien', 'starship troopers', etc.) to give it an over all feel.

Also, starcraft and D&D shouldn't mix numbers, although the ratio should be level.


Finally: I'd like to say that zerglings do need strength. You can't have zerglings everywhere all the time. They need to raise infrastructures quickly, not pile into a single building quickly (although a few dozen zerglings should be enough to result in the death of hundreds of civvies, ever heard of a zerg rush?). Hundreds of zombies can't get into a supermart (strength is abysmal), but a handful of zerglings should have no problem whatsoever. A single zergling should be able to wedge open steel doors in a locked elevator.

For reference, how powerful should the terminator from Terminator 1 be?

EDIT: Lowered the CR to 6 and the hp by 20. Be sure to judge.

MageSparrowhawk
2009-01-03, 11:44 PM
ooook....this is all well and good, but there's one small flaw.


what if you don't want to add Sci Fi technology into your game?

tigerhawkvok
2009-01-04, 12:57 AM
To the person above me: Try not to make too many judgements of a marine. A marine is at best, a level 1 warrior with specific training (maybe level 2 with neural resocialization in check). The guns and armor actually increase the marines ECL to about 9.
The difference is pretty decently established in the DMG. Besides, have you seen someone swing a sword into something? I have, its scary. Hell, even watch Mythbusters, see what some swords do to ballistic gels compared to bullets -- as much or more damage. Some of those things deal way more damage than a silly gun. I could buy ECL of maybe 6, but I think 3-5 is way way way more likely.



To see my point: It seems kind of ridiculous that just a few hyper-accelerated bullets should asplode a zergling like a beef patty, where that would be the case in CR 3-4 (instead a dozen should). A rifle might do 2d8 damage, an elephant rifle might do 2d12 (or 4d6, depends) damage, but what of a gauss rifle? They fire 'hyperaccelerated' rounds. Rounds that travel so fast, they actually add damage modifiers due to breaking the sound barrier by a few degrees. Not to mention the guass rifle is automatic (though maybe I could include rules for it powering down).

As a point of fact, virtually all bullets are supersonic ;-). The only special thing about "gauss" is that it means its electromagnetically fired, rather then chemically. Doesn't mean anything special in particular. As a point of fact, very fast bullets will often deal less damage than slow ones. Its the bullet geometry, not the speed, that matters in this context. Its why a high-powered rifle in a full metal jacket does less damage than a partial-jacketed hollowpoint; the hollowpoint flowers out and does more damage to systems as it passes through. An elephant rife has an explosive cartridge. Its all about the bullet.



A zergling has a lot of hp, it can take several hits, although it has the appearance that it can't.
It takes about 6 hits from a marine. Lets be generous and say 2d8 damage a hit (shotgun -- a rifle is more powerful, as in armor-piercing, but is less lethal, probably 1d10), with a 9 damage average = 54 hit points (38 HP on a rifle, very nearly its HP in SC). This number has to go down with damage reduction and such applied.


In 'speed of darkness' there's a zergling described as leaking vital organs as it continues to barrel towards its target. Lots of hp. ;)
Poetic license and so far as I know about SC canon, well not canon.



Dark Templar: Dark Templar have blades channelled from the void itself and a combination of psychic energy. It shouldn't be psion manifested (the blades are manufactured with alien technology superior to that of humans and activated by psion ability). The blades can pretty much cut through anything if you bring it close to the material (now imagine it being swung, BAM). They don't emit too much heat, because it's psychic energy, however they glow most likely due to transplanar qualities (photons leaking through that veil of dark energy). In D&D terms, such a weapon is a very fantastic device.
Actually, it sounds pretty much identical to brilliant energy weapons, +4 weapons. My point was that your power scale is way off.


Protoss shields are very powerful, but don't usually regenerate that fast (it's alot slower, say 2-3hp/round).
Again, its just scaled to match your zergling. I agree.


Dark Templar don't necessarily need a lot of hp (isn't hp about 60 in starcraft?).
Again, I agree -- just scaling to match the zergling. They have about 75 HP and 75 shields, if I recall, for ~ 150 net "HP" and 5x that of a zergling. 77x5 = 385; the DT I wrote had 255 with shields, or "low" by 33% in comparison to your zergling.


which is where a lot of levels come from, too. High level is just fine. The point (not to belabor the point) is power scaling.



Marines: Marines on the other hand have targetting reticles and computers that actually have motion prediction and tell the marine where to shoot. A marine is trained to become uber-familiar with their CMC's own interface ("My interface is my friend! Without me, my interface is useless! Without my interface, I am useless!" Etc...).
Aaaand in D&D they have magical weapons that draw themselves to your target. That's what enhancement bonuses are! Again, SC marines are quite capable of scaling with other player classes in D&D, and if there's to be any hope of cross-universe interaction, that should be reflected. A similar D&D character could be a level 5 fighter in half-plate, +1 weapon, with an item that might give it another +1 to attack. At those levels, a trained fighter has a BAB (skill-to-hit) of 5, a STR (I've specifically trained in hitting hard) bonus of +4, and a weapon bonus of 1 for an attack bonus of +10, magical enhancement counting for +10%. A marine would concievably have a dex bonus of +2 (heavy armor, etc) so for it to be on-par to-hit with a L5 fighter, the computer would give it +3 to hit (~40% enhancment on aim). Very reasonable.



If all this seems overpowered, know that besides the fact that starcraft is sci-fi (500 years in the future), it's rooted in a world who's history has been mostly war up until 'present' and a third industrial revolution (spaceships, nukes commonplace, etc.). Things are slightly over the top as such. It's fairly war-hammery, with other influences ('alien', 'starship troopers', etc.) to give it an over all feel. Not at all overpowered, if you scale it right. Marines really aren't that much more powerful than fighters. Spaceships and such would be epic-level vehicles (have you seen "Vengeful Gaze of God"? 300d6 to everything in a mile. Yeah, that's small nuke territory. Epic spell.) Not over the top if you scale it all right, and realize that in a normal populace, and with respect to actual numbers of trained marines and such, things like nukes and battlecruisers are about as rare as epic wizards. I mean, think how many hundreds of marines are *on* battleships ...



Also, starcraft and D&D shouldn't mix numbers, although the ratio should be level. I disagree -- same universe, and templates are even provided in the DMG to let the timelines scale about right!



Finally: I'd like to say that zerglings do need strength. You can't have zerglings everywhere all the time.
Um. That's the POINT of zerglings. Cheap, disposable, everywhere.


They need to raise(sic - raze) infrastructures quickly, not pile into a single building quickly (although a few dozen zerglings should be enough to result in the death of hundreds of civvies, ever heard of a zerg rush?). Hundreds of zombies can't get into a supermart (strength is abysmal), but a handful of zerglings should have no problem whatsoever. Zombies pile though, not attack. When they do attack, they always break the windows and make their way in. Every single zombie movie ...


A single zergling should be able to wedge open steel doors in a locked elevator.

For reference, how powerful should the terminator from Terminator 1 be?

The terminator? Hm. A few hundred HP (200? 150?) with some incredible damage resistance (maybe DR 20-30 /-), STR many times that of a standard human (carrying coffin with John Connor and guns in one hand), so maybe 30-32. *Shrugs*. Able to take on an army of marines singlehandedly. Or an entire police department.

Lert, A.
2009-01-04, 01:09 AM
You could also have weaker zerg (I'll include variencies for that)...

I think this has been the largest problem for many readers, so thank you. Most creatures are presented as a minimum effective level, then allow for HD advancement, since it is always easier to beef up your creatures rather than decide how to lessen then. If you do end up presenting a more D&D scale 'ling many peoples worries will be assuaged.

imp_fireball
2009-01-05, 12:09 AM
There's about a dozen factors tigerhawk didn't consider. You say rifle rounds are armor piercing? Then that would mean they'd have to bypasse hardness and damage reduction! Oh, but then again it depends on the material to of the round to! Also there's a reason why people depend on different sources of energy. Mainly, why switch to guass rifles? Because they're better then ordinary rifles. They fire metal spikes, which according to shape should be very affective at piercing, no (unless I got my shape math all wrong)?

Battlecruisers: Ever heard of megacorporations? To become an epic level wizard, you'd have to realistically adventure for a very very long time. No human should really be allowed to live that long unless through magic.

Megacorporations dish out funds from products they've sold as a result of stripmining entire planets over the course of just weeks.

Battlecruisers should essentially be a lot more common. It's not like they'd sprout up in every major base (that's where players tank push instead of tech to BC). Thing is, the third industrial revolution (something I made up in regards to timeline, but it kinda has to happen to reach a PL with the the terrans; and mind you, PLs are completely different in each universe and cannot be standardized and shouldn't for that matter hence partly why I despise most of d20 future) lead to this. Military in the future is about really big things rather then kinda big things, to put it really simply.

One thing I feel I gotta stress is virtually everything the terran have is metal (it isn't like modern times, where the only things that are metal are the stuff you blow savings on that is built to last and comes with a hefty service charge if it doesn't last). Zerglings saw through metal on a daily basis, so they should be reasonably powerful.

Also zerg are special in that there's no age categories. There metabolism keeps them at a set age, and it's virtually unknown whether they wear down. So the base set limit has a zerg that is of fairly high benchmark (that of a youthful soldier in peak form) right at birth.

Non-canon speculation: They corrode after their processing facilities (inside a zerg's body) literally shut down as soon as the overlord detects the first signs of a permanent slowing.

tigerhawkvok
2009-01-05, 03:11 AM
There's about a dozen factors tigerhawk didn't consider. You say rifle rounds are armor piercing? Then that would mean they'd have to bypasse hardness and damage reduction! Oh, but then again it depends on the material to of the round to!
Yep, this is perfectly reasonable in D&D. Say, DR 15/silver ... need silver to get through! I see no problems.


Also there's a reason why people depend on different sources of energy. Mainly, why switch to guass rifles? Because they're better then ordinary rifles. They fire metal spikes, which according to shape should be very affective at piercing, no (unless I got my shape math all wrong)?
Has little or nothing to do with the shape. Mostly, a perfect guass rifle can have a higher fire rate than a chemical based rifle, and the rounds are cheaper.




Battlecruisers: Ever heard of megacorporations? To become an epic level wizard, you'd have to realistically adventure for a very very long time. No human should really be allowed to live that long unless through magic.
Untrue. If you play a character from 1-epic, it really takes about 3 years in game, maybe four if they're constantly adventuring. This is even referenced in OTOPCs.



Megacorporations dish out funds from products they've sold as a result of stripmining entire planets over the course of just weeks.

Battlecruisers should essentially be a lot more common. It's not like they'd sprout up in every major base (that's where players tank push instead of tech to BC). Thing is, the third industrial revolution (something I made up in regards to timeline, but it kinda has to happen to reach a PL with the the terrans; and mind you, PLs are completely different in each universe and cannot be standardized and shouldn't for that matter hence partly why I despise most of d20 future) lead to this. Military in the future is about really big things rather then kinda big things, to put it really simply.
There are energetics considerations to these things ... battlecruisers *can't* be too common, by virtue of the energy required to mine, melt, shape, and cool the tonnage of metal. And the number of trained personel to pilot the things!

Zerglings saw through metal on a daily basis, so they should be reasonably powerful.
Have you seen a dog absentmindedly bite a metal plate? Or, think about the fact that when D&D monsters hit through plate armor, it is to some extent rending holes and injuring the person inside? Again, similar scale to D&D. They're just *not that powerful*.



Also zerg are special in that there's no age categories. There metabolism keeps them at a set age, and it's virtually unknown whether they wear down. So the base set limit has a zerg that is of fairly high benchmark (that of a youthful soldier in peak form) right at birth. Few monsters have age categories (most notable of the ones that do are, of course, dragons)

imp_fireball
2009-01-05, 04:26 AM
Dragons recieve special attention because apparently all other magical beasts are eaten or killed off before old age (which is why there's no elder subtype and it's assumed that they die of old age; magical only makes them sentient and oddly enough without societal development). It really doesn't make much sense, but meh. Someone else can cover it.

Also, zerglings are not dogs. To rephrase your own rhetoric: Have you ever seen a mutated dog who is actually akin to a dog from another far off planet, and is really an engineered aberration born for war bite through a metal plate? Just because they are the general shape of dogs doesn't make them the dog subtype. The purpose of subtype originally was to stress that these creatures are THIS specifically and not THAT. Understand?

On gauss rifles: What I meant to say, is that they generally fire metal spikes faster. Even faster then normal acceleration unless you want to start referring to all guns as mass drivers which while even though technically accurate, is something scientists have only recently adopted (since the 50s)? Before then it was gunpowder. No longer. Why do railguns sprout up in sci-fi? Because they're a futuristic alternative? Hell no, the future means better weapons. Weapons that kill you even faster then a gun to the head. If your wearing a helmet that is.

Also, why are gauss rifles fuggin' huge? Is it a trick? Why make them so unwieldy? Because they've got a port for a capacitor apparently! But why not use an earlier gauss weapon? Because this one fires heavier and more dakka!

tigerhawkvok
2009-01-05, 05:12 PM
The purpose of subtype originally was to stress that these creatures are THIS specifically and not THAT. Understand? The point was to show that real-life animals not much bigger than dogs are capable of pretty serious damage, and you don't need to superbuff zerglings, really.



On gauss rifles: What I meant to say, is that they generally fire metal spikes faster. (...) Why do railguns sprout up in sci-fi? Because they're a futuristic alternative? Hell no, the future means better weapons. Weapons that kill you even faster then a gun to the head. If your wearing a helmet that is.

I believe I said this -- they can travel through things better, but that just means armor-piercing (assuming solid, pointed projectiles; not hollow-tips), which is != to more damage. Projectile geometry is what deals the damage, as I stated earlier. The KE of the projectile just determines how much stuff it goes through before it stops, really.



Also, why are gauss rifles fuggin' huge? Is it a trick? Why make them so unwieldy? Because they've got a port for a capacitor apparently! But why not use an earlier gauss weapon? Because this one fires heavier and more dakka! I have no idea what you're talking about by "dakka". But yes, they need capacitors: they apply a current down some rails, and the induced magnetic field sends the projectile flying. This is a large amount of charge released very quickly = perfect for a capacitor.

I think I'm done with this debate; I've tried to get my point across that it doesn't need absurd scaling, and given numbers that I think back it up, but there's only so much I can say before it becomes evident that its not going anywhere.

imp_fireball
2009-01-13, 07:40 PM
So, hey, I scaled it down a bit again.

Does anyone here think rush and lockjaw are overpowered?

I think the ultimate goal should be to PbPitize a starcraft match, which could be neat. Kind of like D20 baseball (lost the link to that).

MageSparrowhawk
2009-01-13, 11:31 PM
looks better, now get rid of...

the optional natural weapons (stick to one type)
lockjaw
the bonus DR when taking full defense
the DR reduction once it's bloodied (just keep the straight up 1/-)
ability to bypass DR
frightful presence
rush (give it pounce)
movement speed (reduce to about...50'...80' with the upgrade)
all of the sub-evolutions
Zergling as a PC

Ability scores should be rewritten as such:
Str 16, Dex 20, Con 14, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 6

and I can't think of anything else off the top of my head...

(and I'm not trying to sound imposing, this is just what I suggest you do to make this creature more accessible to a standard game of D&D)

imp_fireball
2009-01-16, 10:09 PM
looks better, now get rid of...

1. the optional natural weapons (stick to one type)
2. lockjaw
3. the bonus DR when taking full defense
4. the DR reduction once it's bloodied (just keep the straight up 1/-)
5. ability to bypass DR
6. frightful presence
7. rush (give it pounce)
8. movement speed (reduce to about...50'...80' with the upgrade)
9. all of the sub-evolutions
10. Zergling as a PC

11. Ability scores should be rewritten as such:
Str 16, Dex 20, Con 14, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 6

and I can't think of anything else off the top of my head...

(and I'm not trying to sound imposing, this is just what I suggest you do to make this creature more accessible to a standard game of D&D)

1. Zergling's have been shown with many different forms. I don't want to have to create zerg variants. All are equally fast except for a few differences in weapons. If I ever have time, I'd include a rule for playing a cerebrate and what control the cerebrate has over spawning zerg. Lings specifically should have different weapons and it shouldn't change much.

2. I think lockjaw's fine. It establishes the 'ling as a creature that grapples. The only problem is that it might conflict with rush (although I'll probably balance it a little).

3. Fine.

4. The zergling has less hp now, so I guess I'll follow up.

5. How the heck will the 'ling fight starship troopers without the ability to at least cut through adamantine?

6. I don't know man, it looks pretty frightening to me. Hey, maybe I'll give it frightful presence, but only if there's a horde of zerglings in the midst. :smallsmile:

7. This is being tweaked. Also, I've given it pounce already (although I might create a special circumstance, such as half attacks and then all attacks performable only on a grapple, while removing two weapon pounce).

8. Speed is basically doubled in-game, which I'm trying to stay somewhat loyal to (with the added flares). Also, watch the cinematics and logfish's flashes (even though the latter is non-canon). Zerglings are pretty darn fast. A vulture must cruise at a reasonable speed to keep up with a zergling (although vultures are ultimately faster than zerglings). Speed is underestimated in D&D, since, with metabollic synthesis (100'), the zergling still can run (4x speed) at about 70/80km/h on a rough scale of 3' to a meter. Which is reasonable for a fast and relentless critter from space. They're hyper dogs.

9. Whaat, why... this applies to the cerebrate/player association thing again. And technically they're just a list of feats unique to the template. Also 'zerg bonus feats' could be a thing that applies to certain zerg elite templates (ie. devouring one or some other special zerg centric to a campaign world). Every few levels they'd be listed with 'zerg bonus feat'.

Just for clarification, the idea of the 'zerg bonus feat' takes directly from Lords of Madness. Even though it's not technically a feat in itself to be granted say, an extra limb, from a higher power, it still somehow falls into place. I guess the fact that I replaced the ling's INT score with a 2 helps certify that case (so it's not like they are making completely rational decisions for their own benefit).

11. Hey I know you're entitled to your own opinion, but generally I'd keep the zergling as more then a machine. Zerg are generally prone to adjusting to enemy tactics (it keeps with the in-game mechanism). Zerglings need lots of strength for jumping and rending, lots of DEX for reflecting the fact that they have a chance of avoiding guass rifle fire (since guass is a touch attack) and flamethrowers (since that prompts reflex saves), CON is fine, WIS needs to be higher (or remain the same) and Cha is generally quite low.

Also, I'd mention that 26 STR is not nearly enough to knock over a house (not with just one or a few hits, maybe if significant time is invested... less STR means they'd need levels in monk for fluff purposes; one of those karate dudes that break a house down bit by bit). Particularly if it has brick walls. Usually, 40 or 50 is more par to that sorta thing. Also size has a lot to do with having the reach to bash through multiple floors and stabilizers, unless you refer to running or allocated actions within a round. Just IMO.

MageSparrowhawk
2009-01-16, 10:56 PM
1) only reason I suggest sticking to one type is because they're not shown to have anything besides 'claw thingies' plus it simplifies the mess you currently have under the attack line
2) I guess I don't think that 'Lings should grapple. I can understand them attacking someone in a mean manner, but they haven't really been shown jumping on someone like that (or at least biting while they do so...actually I don't remember them biting much at all)
3) cool
4) right
5) because they can already bypass some DR because they have DR (it's a quality inherent with having DR). also, I'd say these guys can chew through that kind of stuff from sheer numbers and number of attacks
6) one, frightful presence is magical fear; and two, there are creatures much scarier than a 'ling in D&D that don't have frightful presence
7) hmm...maybe if you worded it more like improved grab, it might be more clear...
8) a move speed of 100' equates to a run speed of 45 mph. I can see giving them a dash or something of that nature, but I really doubt that land animals (especially of that size) are able to move that fast for any length of time (even if they're super-aliens)
9) is there any basis for any of those attributes? Besides the ones named in SC of course. If you want to do something new, sure, but those things do not a zergling make.
10) Zerglings do not have an intelligence score. That is cannon. Therefore, they cannot be player characters.
11) That adjusting to enemy tactics? that's the cerebrate, and by extension the overmind. Not the Zergling itself. They aren't -that- strong; they can't dodge gauss rounds, they can just take three before they die, and flamethrowers kill them in one or two hits; they should not be wiser than a normal human; and Cha is fine

Knocking over a house? why should that even be brought up in relation to a ling? also, a hill giant has a str of 25! you're saying a zergling, the creature that is the weakest creature in the zerg army, is stronger than a giant?

just remember, the creature you're making is a zergling. a creature that spawns in twos. That is useless in numbers less than 6. That is most often used in groups upwards of 20. this creature. http://www.starcraft2.com/images/screenshots/ss2-hires.jpg make it make sense.

imp_fireball
2009-01-16, 11:25 PM
10. Hey, that's not stated as not canon either.
11. Meh.

Everything, else. Sorry, but that's your opinion.

Zerglings don't zombie pile. They charge in. Most of them die before they reach the target, and yet they do considerable damage. If there's a lot of 'lings, then there's a lot of dead really fast. They don't need numbers to be effective. In this regard, on the battlefield they DO, but they don't need numbers in order to create destruction period. Otherwise I might as well create a gremling subtype.

Finally, I'd like to say that Hill Giant's are size Large. Not Huge. Str 25 is reasonable for a Hill Giant, since they're basically a little larger then your typical Ukranian 9ft. tall human. Kind of a superior ogre, rather then a colossus sort of thing that uproots trees with naught but a standard action and hurdles them at hapless adventures amidst thunderous guffawing.


dear god, that thing would obliterate anything in a swarm:smalleek:

That's why they dominate galaxies. :P

Also, mass zergling can still feasible late game, so yah.