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Heliomance
2008-12-20, 11:03 AM
So I'm looking to build a Clericzilla. Never tried this before, so I'd like some advice. Level 13 gestalt pirates game. One side is going to go Cleric 5/Stormlord 8, I think, not sure what to do with the other side. I was considering being a 4-armed Sahuagin and going into Master Thrower for shenanigans with the fact that every javelin I throw is +2 Shock Thundering Shocking Burst. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to build an effective Zilla, beyond the fact that Wis is the key stat.

EDIT: We're using the class-based defense variant rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm)

Blood_Lord
2008-12-20, 11:06 AM
So I'm looking to build a Clericzilla. Never tried this before, so I'd like some advice. Level 13 gestalt pirates game. One side is going to go Cleric 5/Stormlord 8, I think, not sure what to do with the other side. I was considering being a 4-armed Sahuagin and going into Master Thrower for shenanigans with the fact that every javelin I throw is +2 Shock Thundering Shocking Burst. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to build an effective Zilla, beyond the fact that Wis is the key stat.

Well, If you intend to be a thrower, you want to Persist a bunch of spells, maybe Divine Power, depending on your BAB, though you might want it anyway for the +6 Str, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Something with a Morale Bonus to attack and damage. Ect.

Then you can go to town with Master Thrower.

Other options not as good for Storm Lords are being a super Archer, and similar.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-20, 11:10 AM
Clericzilla is based off of being better in combat than the Fighter, but that is no reason to not take a Fighter level for the feats and armor proficiencies. I recommend Cloistered Cleric instead of regular, and DMM either Quicken or Persist. Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor are the base buffs you need up every combat, so shoot for a way of getting all 3 of them before your standard action in the second round.

esorscher
2008-12-20, 11:14 AM
Divine Metamagic and Persist Spell, as well as other feats to get more turn attempts, or a high Charisma.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 11:56 AM
Hmm, Master Thrower doesn't actually add much to the build. Hulking Hurler, on the other hand, with Ranged Power Attack and mybe Meteor Strike, sounds useful, and I believe Righteous Might makes me bg enough to qualify.

DrizztFan24
2008-12-20, 12:04 PM
Did everyone just miss that he said he has shocking thundering shocking burst javelins?

Things like shock and shocking burst don't stack.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 12:13 PM
Clericzilla is based off of being better in combat than the Fighter, but that is no reason to not take a Fighter level for the feats and armor proficiencies. I recommend Cloistered Cleric instead of regular, and DMM either Quicken or Persist. Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor are the base buffs you need up every combat, so shoot for a way of getting all 3 of them before your standard action in the second round.

With gestalt Cloistered Cleric//Fighter, most of those are irrelevant.

Seriously, with Gestalt, this could get ugly quick. How's this?

Cloistered Cleric Cleric//Beguiler

Now you DDM Persist cheeze and it actually is meaningful. Oh, you're also a Party of One. You've got Cleric spells, you've got Arcane spells, you've got UMD for any spell effect you might not be able to cast anyways. You're a full skillmonkey with trapfinding. Oh, and let's not forget you're also a tank with effectively full BAB and high hit points.

Gorbash
2008-12-20, 12:14 PM
Well, if Flaming and Frost stack, why wouldn't Thundering and Shocking Burst?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 12:20 PM
Did everyone just miss that he said he has shocking thundering shocking burst javelins?

Things like shock and shocking burst don't stack.

I think he was confused by the class abilities. Shocking Burst stacks with Thundering, but replaces Shocking, as per class description.

Honestly, if javelins weren't such a bad weapon to try and maximize crit opportunities, I'd strongly suggest trying to max out how many crits you can make, as both Thundering and Shocking Burst go off on a crit, further increasing damage.

If we use spears, instead of javelins, things become even nastier. True, the Enhance Javelin ability doesn't twig, but if we have Cleric/Stormlord and then we go something like Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade on the other, with riccochet shot, he could be chunking the same spear over and over for nastiness and X3 damage on a crit.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 12:26 PM
Trouble with that idea is I don't know ToB, and I can't be bothered to learn it a the sum total of DMs in my area that allow it is, I'm pretty sure, 0.

Beguiler sounds like fun, but adds in some serious MAD. I need both WIS and INT very high for that build.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 01:02 PM
Trouble with that idea is I don't know ToB, and I can't be bothered to learn it a the sum total of DMs in my area that allow it is, I'm pretty sure, 0.

Okay, so stick to javelins. The extra magic damage the class ability grants is greater than the X3 damage on a crit.

Vortling
2008-12-20, 01:19 PM
What books are you allowed for this character? The Intiutive Attack (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Intuitive_Attack,BE) feat may let you throw javelins using wisdom instead of dexterity. If not you'll want to look up the Divine Agility spell from the spell compendium to increase your dexterity.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 01:43 PM
Unfortunately, I'm a wee bit feat-starved. Stormlord needs three useless feats to get into, and I've dumped three more on getting DMM: Persist. I'm hoping I'm allowed to use flaws (DM's not got back to me yet), otherwise I lack the DMM. I also need to pick up Extra Turning, as I currently only have 5 TU uses daily.

Toliudar
2008-12-20, 01:44 PM
Actually, I think it's Zen Archery that you want - the ranged equivalent of Intuitive Strike. Especially if you're focusing on Con, Wis and Cha.

If you can make it work with your concept, the time domain will give you a few choice benefits. Improved Initiative is never a bad thing, and spells like haste, permanency and contingency are really great for a cleric.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 01:52 PM
Trouble is, I need to focus on INT and WIS, while not neglecting CHA for the turn attempts, CON for HP, and keeping STR and DEX reasonable for my javelins. All of my stats are important.

UserClone
2008-12-20, 02:12 PM
If your DM blanket bans anything from BoED, there's still Zen Archery (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Zen_Archery,CW), though for your purposes Intuitive Attack is strictly better, due to the fact that you can use it for simple melee weapons as well, and the only ranged weapon you are likely to want to use is simple anyway.:smallbiggrin:

Blood_Lord
2008-12-20, 02:20 PM
Well since he's a Pirate, he ain't gonna be Exalted anyway, so Zen Archery is better.

Alternatively, you could grab Power Throw, and Focus on Str. With Divine Power and Righteous Might that should be higher then Wisdom. Then you can ignore Dex. And Str doesn't need to be all that high. Nor Con.

Vortling
2008-12-20, 02:21 PM
What do you need INT for? Also Zen Archery or Intuitive Attack rids of you of the need for high DEX. Here's my suggestion. A level of fighter on your side opposite the cleric and stormlord. Use the bonus feat to pick up Weapon Focus Javelin. Unless you absolutely can't stand it, be a human. See if you can pick up the Planning domain (Bonus Feat: Extend Spell), Undeath (Bonus Feat: Extra Turning), or both as your domains. Then your feats can roll like this.

Level 1: Extend Spell (Domain), Extra Turning (Domain), Endurance (Human), Weapon Focus Javelin (Fighter), Great Fortitude.
(More if you pick up a flaw of some sort, but that's getting a little ridiculous, if you need reflex save bonus, go with the Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variant class) At this point you've got 7 turn attempts with 10 CHA.

Level 3: Persistent Spell

Level 6: DMM Persistent Spell (whee, persist a spell for free)

Level 9: Zen Archery (if your DM allows Intuitive Attack, take a second level of Fighter, take it as your bonus feat, and swap this out for another Extra turning)

Level 12 and all others: Extra Turning (With a CHA of 12 plus the trick below you can persist two spells now. Righteous Might + Divine Power gives you a very nice boost to strength.)

At the beginning of the day, prep a spell that gives you a CHA boost like Eagle's Splendor or borrow a cloak of charisma from someone. You only need a boost to CHA until you're done casting your persisted spells for the day

Stat priorities: WIS>STR>CON>=CHA. No need for INT or DEX and CHA above 10 is questionably needed.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 02:27 PM
I need INT for being a Beguiler. Currently I'm looking at Beguiler 13//Cleric 5/Stormlord 8, with no free feats. I have to worship Talos for Stormlord, so my choice of domains is limited to Storm, Fire, Chaos or Destruction. And I'm an Aventi rather than a Human for the swim speed and amphibiousness.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 02:31 PM
Unfortunately, neither Undeath nor Planning are among the domains of Talos, and Stormlord requires worshiping Talos as your patron deity. Also, Talos is chaotic evil which makes Exalted feats not an option. Intuitive Attack only applies to attacks that would otherwise use strength (i.e. melee) anyway, and he's focusing on throwing javelins.

Fighter on the other side of the gestalt would be good for bonus feats, but most of the feats you need aren't on the Fighter bonus list. Ask if Nightsticks (Libris Mortis) are allowed and if they stack. If yes, stock up on a bunch of them. If not, go human with flaws (if allowed) and take Extra Turning as many times as you can.

UserClone
2008-12-20, 02:32 PM
Nice touch. I like Aventi a lot. Although, Darfellan look way cooler, and have a better swim speed.:smalltongue:

Edit: Plus, you don't really need the Dex with your Zen Archery.:smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 02:34 PM
What Zen Archery? I don't have the feats to spare! I can only just squeeze in the DMM: Persist and the prereqs for Stormlord as it is, and if flaws end up banned I can't even manage that.

Vortling
2008-12-20, 02:35 PM
Looking at what you want you're going to have to choose between stormlord or persisting spells. How optimized is the rest of your party? Personally, I wouldn't consider beguiler for the other side unless you need illusion spells for your RP concept or are going to choose persisting spells over stormlord and throwing javelins. Yes, having arcane and divine spells is nice but you've only got so many actions per turn to use attacks and cast.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 02:38 PM
I don't really know the other characters' builds yet. I'm not wedded to Beguiler really, I just picked it up because it was suggested and I thought it sounded interesting. If there's something that can help me with my feat-starvedness, I'm all ears.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 02:47 PM
Unless you actually need to be able to go underwater, two core level 3 cleric spells can take care of all your water travel/survival needs quite easily. Water Breathing even lasts all day (26 hours) at your level with no metamagic at all, and Water Walk is still pretty good at 10 minutes/level. Ditch Aventi for human to get a bonus feat.

If flaws are allowed, by my count you actually do have one feat available after getting prereqs and DMM: Persist. You get feats at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12, plus two from flaws for a total of 7. Stormlord prereqs take 3, and Extend + Persist + DMM: Persist take another 3. That leaves 1 remaining, 2 if you switch to human. If Nightsticks are allowed and your DM lets them stack, you can spend those spare feats on things like Power Throw or Zen Archery, otherwise get Extra Turning.

If going 'zilla is more important than the flavor of Stormlord to you, ditch the PrC. Between not needing those useless prereq feats and being able to pick your domains more freely, that could save you a full five feats, all of which could be spent on Extra Turning for almost an additional 3 free persisted spells each day.

Edit: Actually, a classic clericzilla in gestalt would be much better suited by a gish class like Duskblade on the other side than a non-buffing focused caster class. The main point of this kind of cleric build is to buff yourself into a melee combat monster. From an optimization standpoint you want things that synergize with that on the other side of the gestalt. Beguiler is primarily an offensive caster, so you'd be stuck either casting a beguiler spell or using your buffed 'zilla attacks each round, not both. With Duskblade you can channel your Duskblade nuke spells through your 'zilla attack routine, benefiting from both at once. Heck, RAW you can use Duskblade's Arcane Channeling on your cleric spells, allowing you to full attack with Harm. It only affects each target once regardless of multiple hits, though, so you'd have to attack multiple enemies to get the full effect.

Vortling
2008-12-20, 03:00 PM
I don't really know the other characters' builds yet. I'm not wedded to Beguiler really, I just picked it up because it was suggested and I thought it sounded interesting. If there's something that can help me with my feat-starvedness, I'm all ears.

I took another look at Stormlord and I'm with douglas on not taking stormlord unless you really like the fluff of it. You could even switch deities and still have a storm theme if you pick up a deity with the weather domain (Complete Divine, the new domains section). You can put a few fighter levels(~4) on your other side of gestalt to pick up a few feats for your javelins

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 04:08 PM
I do love the fluff of being a master of the storm, especially as it's a sea-based game. If it's possible to keep Stormlord and still be an effective zilla, I'd prefer to do that.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 04:22 PM
May I make a recomendation?

It seems like Stormlord really isn't going to do what you want it to unless you seriously focus on it, in which case, your CoDzilla-ness starts suffering.

Also, for Gestalt, it's generally better to go Class1/Prc/Prc//Class2 that doesn't need a PrC. So something that is good to go all the way straight on the other side. Preferabally one that doesn't have a lot of prerequsite stats to be viable.

The bane of caster//caster is that, unless you are casting off the same base stat, you run into MAD quickly.

What are you really wanting to do with this character? Are you needing to be more than a minor band-aid box, or will they need a full cleric's worth of heals and fix-its as well? It sounds like this may not be a job for ClericZilla after all.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 04:25 PM
I'm not sure what the party is lacking in terms of roles, I don't want to end up being a healbot, and the group is very large (PbP), so I doubt we'll be hurting for anything. Clericzilla is a role I've never tried before, and I wanted to play with it. I also love the master of the storm flavour of the Stormlord, and thought that as it's full casting it could fit in quite effectively.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 04:33 PM
I'm not sure what the party is lacking in terms of roles, I don't want to end up being a healbot, and the group is very large (PbP), so I doubt we'll be hurting for anything. Clericzilla is a role I've never tried before, and I wanted to play with it. I also love the master of the storm flavour of the Stormlord, and thought that as it's full casting it could fit in quite effectively.

Sadly, to get both to work even remotely well, they require a bunch of feats, and you are very feat deprived. However, there is a solution to this!

Since you're going CoDzilla anyways, BAB doesn't need to come from your base classes.

May I present to you: The Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue). Since you're wanting a lot of feats, but don't need the BAB, how about 8+ Int skills, Evasion ability (which will serve you well out at sea), and general all-round scallywag flavor.

So, we're looking at Cleric/Stormlord//Feat Rogue.

This lets you pick up the feats necessary to make Stormlord really shine, while still grabbing all the feats necessary for CoDzilla.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-20, 04:37 PM
Well, you could try something like Cleric/Stormlord//Swordsage, and reflavor Desert Wind to be, I dunno, "Storm's Fury". Just replace [Fire] with [Electricity] and call it a day.

Alternatively, dig around on the homebrew forum for aquatic- or storm-based disciplines: I made the Ocean Soul discipline, and I Got This Name's Falling Wave discipline has similar principles.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 04:39 PM
Well, you could try something like Cleric/Stormlord//Swordsage, and reflavor Desert Wind to be, I dunno, "Storm's Fury". Just replace [Fire] with [Electricity] and call it a day.

Alternatively, dig around on the homebrew forum for aquatic- or storm-based disciplines: I made the Ocean Soul discipline, and I Got This Name's Falling Wave discipline has similar principles.


Trouble with that idea is I don't know ToB, and I can't be bothered to learn it a the sum total of DMs in my area that allow it is, I'm pretty sure, 0.

Looks like he can't use ToB, or I'd have suggested something similar.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 04:41 PM
Not without either stacking Nightsticks or actually casting your buffs in combat.

However, all you really need to duplicate that flavor is the right spell selection. Weapon of Energy (cleric 3, Spell Compendium) can get you shocking weapons, and Resist Energy (cleric 2, core) and Energy Immunity (cleric 6, Spell Compendium) can get you the electricity resistance/immunity. All that really leaves is Thundering weapons (not exactly a major bonus) and the resistance to high winds and ability to fly in storms. Once you get another two levels Stormrage (cleric 8, Spell Compendium) can get you the wind/flight stuff and more (persistable, too), and you could try working out a homebrewed lower level version of it with your DM in the mean time.

Pretty much, Stormlord is not necessary to get that flavor, and dropping it will drastically improve your ability to go 'zilla.

Edit: Feat Rogue suffers from the same problem as Fighter - almost none of the feats he needs are on the list you can choose from.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 04:42 PM
Sadly, to get both to work even remotely well, they require a bunch of feats, and you are very feat deprived. However, there is a solution to this!

Since you're going CoDzilla anyways, BAB doesn't need to come from your base classes.

May I present to you: The Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue). Since you're wanting a lot of feats, but don't need the BAB, how about 8+ Int skills, Evasion ability (which will serve you well out at sea), and general all-round scallywag flavor.

So, we're looking at Cleric/Stormlord//Feat Rogue.

This lets you pick up the feats necessary to make Stormlord really shine, while still grabbing all the feats necessary for CoDzilla.


Doesn't that pull off the Fighter list for available feats, though? Most of the feats I need aren't on that list. I think Weapon Focus is the only one that is.


Looks like he can't use ToB, or I'd have suggested something similar.

I can, as it's a PbP game, but I don't understand the mechanics, and as none of my RL DMs allow it, I can't be bothered to learn them.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 04:45 PM
To reiterate my suggestion, cleric/non-feat-intensive full caster PrC//Duskblade. Take Undeath and Planning domains, stock up on Extra Turning feats, Persistent buff yourself to godliness, and Arcane Channel nuke spells through your insanely buffed full attacks. Pick the right buffs and you'll have plenty of "master of the storm" flavor, too.

This assumes your DM is comfortable with such a high power level, of course. Check if he'll let you stack a bunch of nightsticks on top, but make sure he realizes just how buffed that will let you get.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 04:57 PM
What PrCs would you recommend?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 04:58 PM
Doesn't that pull off the Fighter list for available feats, though? Most of the feats I need aren't on that list. I think Weapon Focus is the only one that is. Yes, but to make Stormlord viable, you do need a bunch of fighter feats. Rapid Shot works perfectly well with thrown weapons, for instance, for which you have Point Blank Shot as a prerequsite. See also Shot on the Run, Precise Shot (and Improved Precise Shot), Quick Draw (so you can throw javelins faster), and Power Throw (for which you need Brutal Throw and Power Attack).




I can, as it's a PbP game, but I don't understand the mechanics, and as none of my RL DMs allow it, I can't be bothered to learn them.
Okay, how about dipping for 4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade, which doesn't advance Initiation? You only need one Iron Heart stance and maneuver. Also, it lets your thrown attacks count as melee attacks, which lets you apply Power Attack and other feats. You only need 4 levels of the PrC, it's got a d12 HD, and it's very handy for any kind of throwing-type build.

Oh, Martial Stance and Martial Maneuver are Fighter Bonus feats! So you don't actually need to pick up any levels of Warblade, just blow two bonus feats (attainable by 2nd level) on it. For the maneuver, it doesn't matter, you don't need to use it. For the stance, which is an always on effect, you may activate or deactivate as a free action, you can add 1d6 to all attacks, for a -2 penalty on your AC. Worth it from your point of view, eh?

So you'd be looking at Cleric9/Stormlord x//Feat Rogue5/Bloodstorm Blade4/Feat Roguex

Douglas
2008-12-20, 05:08 PM
What PrCs would you recommend?
Contemplative. You can only fit 3 levels of it in at this point thanks to the Knowledge (Religion) 13 prereq, but it has no feat prerequisites, gets you a bonus domain and some other minor benefits. This would let you pick up the Storm domain (for example) without having to drop either Undeath or Planning from your 'zilla build.

If you think evasion is worth spending a feat on despite the availability of the Ring of Evasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion), dip 2 levels in Divine Oracle. Continuing the PrC can also net you (Improved) Uncanny Dodge and some minor other stuff.


For the stance, which is an always on effect, you may activate or deactivate as a free action, you can add 1d6 to all attacks, for a -2 penalty on your AC. Worth it from your point of view, eh?
Swift action, actually. There is a difference.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 05:12 PM
3 levels of Contemplative? Most builds I've seen treat it as a 1 level class.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 05:18 PM
Heh, true, but Slippery Mind at level 2 isn't bad. The 9th and 10th level class features are somewhat good, but the main reason to go more than 2 levels would be to pick up another bonus domain at 6, I think.

Anyway, Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 6/Contemplative 2//Duskblade 13 gets you full cleric casting, evasion as a class feature, Improved Uncanny Dodge, an extra domain (two if you count the Oracle domain), and Slippery Mind, along with Full Attack Arcane Channeling and all the other Duskblade goodies at the cost of only one feat taken away from fueling more DMM: Persist.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 06:26 PM
Thanks for all the help! Thinking I might use that build then. My stats are currently 12/12/12/18/18/14 (pre buff) - is this a good distribution?

Feats:
Combat Casting
Extra Turning x6 - gives me 29 attempts per day
Skill Focus K. Religion
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
DMM Persist

Flaws:
Inattentive
Shaky

Aether
2008-12-20, 07:09 PM
*feels stupid*

Why do you need Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion as a feat?

If I'm right, the first 5 ranks in Kn: Religion, give you a bonus on turning attempts... but NOT on the actual number of times you can turn?


Other than that, I'm guessing the 18 on Int is because you're going to have levels in Beguiler, or some other casting class that needs Int?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-20, 07:12 PM
*feels stupid*

Why do you need Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion as a feat? PrC prereq.


Other than that, I'm guessing the 18 on Int is because you're going to have levels in Beguiler, or some other casting class that needs Int?

Duskblade is an Int-caster.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-20, 07:15 PM
Heh, true, but Slippery Mind at level 2 isn't bad. The 9th and 10th level class features are somewhat good, but the main reason to go more than 2 levels would be to pick up another bonus domain at 6, I think.

Anyway, Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 6/Contemplative 2//Duskblade 13 gets you full cleric casting, evasion as a class feature, Improved Uncanny Dodge, an extra domain (two if you count the Oracle domain), and Slippery Mind, along with Full Attack Arcane Channeling and all the other Duskblade goodies at the cost of only one feat taken away from fueling more DMM: Persist.

If you're putting Duskblade on one side, you might consider the Cloistered Cleric, rather than the standard cleric - Duskblade gives back basically everything you lose from the transition from Cleric to Cloistered Cleric.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-20, 07:19 PM
If you're putting Duskblade on one side, you might consider the Cloistered Cleric, rather than the standard cleric - Duskblade gives back basically everything you lose from the transition from Cleric to Cloistered Cleric.

And you pick up more skills and an Int-based lore. Sounds like a win/win to me.

Aether
2008-12-20, 07:28 PM
Aha. PrC pre-req.

Hmm... possibly a bit more off-tangent, but... Some of the pre-reqs for PrCs are weird or pointless.

It's one thing to have Power Attack, Cleave, or Two-Weapon Fighting, or Manyshot or Rapid Shot or Endurance and Die hard or Extra Turning or Zen Archery as pre-requisite feats... But something like Skill Focus: Kn: Religion... seems wasteful. Kind of like a feat is just being sacrificed in order to meet the requirements?

Or.. Maybe I'm looking at the pre-reqs a little the wrong way, but it always seemed to be that classes which were supposed to enhance builds and offer customization, should have pre-reqs that give you a clue as to what would be useful and going in the right direction for that class... Skill Focus: Truenaming as a pre-req makes sense for a Truenaming PrC... *shrugs* Meh.

UserClone
2008-12-20, 07:30 PM
CC is definitely better in this case.

It's funny you should mention Cleave and Two-Weapon Fighting - two of the most useless fighter feats out there...

[email protected] : Pretty much that, yeah.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 07:30 PM
Or you could look on sub-optimal feats as the price that has to be paid to gain the power of the PrC.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-20, 07:38 PM
Aha. PrC pre-req.

Hmm... possibly a bit more off-tangent, but... Some of the pre-reqs for PrCs are weird or pointless.

It's one thing to have Power Attack, Cleave, or Two-Weapon Fighting, or Manyshot or Rapid Shot or Endurance and Die hard or Extra Turning or Zen Archery as pre-requisite feats... But something like Skill Focus: Kn: Religion... seems wasteful. Kind of like a feat is just being sacrificed in order to meet the requirements?

Or.. Maybe I'm looking at the pre-reqs a little the wrong way, but it always seemed to be that classes which were supposed to enhance builds and offer customization, should have pre-reqs that give you a clue as to what would be useful and going in the right direction for that class... Skill Focus: Truenaming as a pre-req makes sense for a Truenaming PrC... *shrugs* Meh.
You are looking at the pre-reqs for PrC's the wrong way. They're supposedly at least partially balancing factors - you "pay" the requirements, you get the benefits of the PrC later on.

It doesn't work, mind - in general, with most full casting PrC, you're still gaining more than you're losing - but theoretically the requirements are supposed to be at least a partial waste.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 07:50 PM
I was about to suggest dumping Combat Casting until I noticed Duskblades get it free.

Shift four points of charisma elsewhere, get a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magic Item Compendium) for 2 extra turn attempts, add a single Nightstick, and cast Eagle's Splendor before buffing in the morning. That gets you up to the 35 turn attempts required to Persist 5 spells and gets you some slightly better other ability scores. If your DM allows Nighsticks to stack, of course, pile on some more of those if you can find enough worthwhile buffs for it all.

I'll add a vote to the Cloistered Cleric recommendation.

Get a Bead of Karma from a Necklace/Strand of Prayer Beads (core) and a Ring of Enduring Arcana (Complete Mage) in case of enemy dispels.

I'd recommend the following all-day buffs:
Divine Favor (just spend the 7th level slot, you should have two)
Death Ward
Sheltered Vitality (Spell Compendium)
Holy/Infernal Transformation (Spell Compendium)
Righteous Might
Superior Resistance (Spell Compendium, base duration is 24 hours so no need for Persist)
Heroes' Feast (base 12 hours, should be plenty for a normal day)
Energy Immunity (Spell Compendium, base 24 hours)
Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium) or a homebrewed Lesser Stormrage

The main benefit of Divine Power is full BAB and Duskblade gives you that already.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 07:50 PM
Next question - what weapon should I use? I'm thinking a greatsword. Also, what spells do you recommend persisting? I think that with 1 nightstick, I can persist 5 per day.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 08:06 PM
Next question - what weapon should I use? I'm thinking either a spear or a morningstar. Also, what spells do you recommend persisting? I think that with 1 nightstick, I can persist 5 per day.

Well, if you're still wanting to go Stormlord (no reason why you can't do both stormlord and contemplative), you might want to go with the spear.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-20, 08:06 PM
The main benefit of Divine Power is full BAB and Duskblade gives you that already.
It also gives you that nifty +6 Enhancement to strength. Still potentially worthwhile, especially if you're using a two-handed weapon.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 08:08 PM
Well, if you're still wanting to go Stormlord (no reason why you can't do both stormlord and contemplative), you might want to go with the spear.

Meh, gave up on Stormlord. And forget the bit about spear or morningstar, I forgot I had martial weapon prof from duskblade.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 08:11 PM
Yes, but it's an enhancement bonus. You can get those anywhere, including common and not too expensive magic items. There are quite a number of Persistable cleric buff spells that cannot be easily duplicated through magic items, far more than he has the turn attempts to use.

Edit: Forgot about Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon in the buffs list. hour/level so Extend is plenty.

@Schneeky
Stormlord was dropped because of the three prerequisite feats, not because it conflicted with another PrC.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 08:14 PM
Actually, if I only shift 2 points of Cha elsewhere, then Eagle's Splendour takes me to 36 turn attempts, just enough to persist 6 spells with no attempts left over. New stat array: 14 10 14 18 18 12

Douglas
2008-12-20, 08:15 PM
No, 35 is exactly enough for 5 spells. DMM requires 1 turn attempt per spell slot level of increase, plus 1. It takes 7 turn attempts to DMM Persist one spell.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 08:16 PM
Freedom of Movement is a very good persistable self-buff.

And yes, magic vestments and GMW are both good self-only, but don't need to be persisted.

Heliomance
2008-12-20, 08:16 PM
Ah, my bad. In that case I'll go 14 8 16 18 18 10.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 08:28 PM
Freedom of Movement is a very good persistable self-buff.
True, but it's available on a ring. A bit expensive at 40000, but still.

Of course, that reminds me that Death Ward is available as a +4 armor ability (Soulfire) from BoED, which could be had for as little as 25000.

Sheltered Vitality and the rest of my recommendations are all either unavailable or far too expensive as magic items though, I think.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-20, 08:37 PM
Yes, but it's an enhancement bonus. You can get those anywhere, including common and not too expensive magic items. There are quite a number of Persistable cleric buff spells that cannot be easily duplicated through magic items, far more than he has the turn attempts to use.

Ah, but as a +6 Enhancement strength-booster would run him 36k, and as the Libris Mortis Nightsticks only run 7,500 gp (and technically stack, as the feat they grant does), not picking up the +6 Enhancement item means being able to pick up an extra four nightsticks, for 16 additional turning attempts... which is two Persisted spells, at the cost of persisting just one spell. It also gives the temp HP (but that'll go away the first battle).

Mind you, if you're going to be abusing DMM(Persistent Spell), you don't really want to go with self-only or single-target buffs - use stuff that will benefit all your allies relatively equally - Elation (Book of Exalted Deeds, but it's a normal spell - +2 Morale to Dex and Strength, +5 foot move), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium, extra attack as per Haste, +3 Morale to Attack/Damage), Recitation (Spell Compendium, +2 or +3 luck to Attack, AC, saves), Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium, fast healing 1), and so on. You're a bit low for Holy (or a different alignment) Aura, but that'd be +4 Deflection to AC, +4 Resistance to saves, some SR vs. opposite-aligned casters, and a surprise for opposite-aligned melee characters that strike your party.

There's three main reasons for using Party-level buffs, rather than self or single-target buffs:
1) Using it on party-level buffs gives you a bit of an RP angle - you do the buffing during "morning services", and anyone who attends "morning services" gets "blessed" with very nice boosts.
2) Using it on party-level buffs, rather than yourself, means that you aren't overshadowing anyone at their tasks - you make everyone better at surviving, at fighting, and at what they do; you don't make anyone else redundant, and so don't interfere with their fun.
3) A +3 on two or three characters is usually going to be better than a +5 on one character - and the buffs I've listed above are good for the entire party (usually four characters). It usually makes the party more effective overall.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 08:42 PM
Ah, but as a +6 Enhancement strength-booster would run him 36k, and as the Libris Mortis Nightsticks only run 7,500 gp (and technically stack, as the feat they grant does), not picking up the +6 Enhancement item means being able to pick up an extra four nightsticks, for 16 additional turning attempts... which is two Persisted spells, at the cost of persisting just one spell. It also gives the temp HP (but that'll go away the first battle).

Mind you, if you're going to be abusing DMM(Persistent Spell), you don't really want to go with self-only or single-target buffs - use stuff that will benefit all your allies relatively equally - Elation (Book of Exalted Deeds, but it's a normal spell - +2 Morale to Dex and Strength, +5 foot move), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium, extra attack as per Haste, +3 Morale to Attack/Damage), Recitation (Spell Compendium, +2 or +3 luck to Attack, AC, saves), Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium, fast healing 1), and so on. You're a bit low for Holy (or a different alignment) Aura, but that'd be +4 Deflection to AC, +4 Resistance to saves, some SR vs. opposite-aligned casters, and a surprise for opposite-aligned melee characters that strike your party.

There's three main reasons for using Party-level buffs, rather than self or single-target buffs:
1) Using it on party-level buffs gives you a bit of an RP angle - you do the buffing during "morning services", and anyone who attends "morning services" gets "blessed" with very nice boosts.
2) Using it on party-level buffs, rather than yourself, means that you aren't overshadowing anyone at their tasks - you make everyone better at surviving, at fighting, and at what they do; you don't make anyone else redundant, and so don't interfere with their fun.
3) A +3 on two or three characters is usually going to be better than a +5 on one character - and the buffs I've listed above are good for the entire party (usually four characters). It usually makes the party more effective overall.

Persist is limited to self-only, emenation centered on self, or spells with fixed duration. Unless you want to pair it with Reach Spell, none of the spells you mentioned qualify

Jack_Simth
2008-12-20, 09:03 PM
Persist is limited to self-only, emenation centered on self, or spells with fixed duration. Unless you want to pair it with Reach Spell, none of the spells you mentioned qualify
Almost.

It is:

PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Prerequisite: Extend Spell.

Benefit: A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spellís actual level.(Emphasis added)

Bursts centered on the caster, having a fixed range, qualify.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 09:16 PM
Almost.

It is:
(Emphasis added)

Bursts centered on the caster, having a fixed range, qualify.

Hmm... I still don't see how this applies, except to Mass Lesser Vigor, which has already been covered.

Basically, it gives you an aura of healing... but you get outside 30' of the cleric, and you don't benefit from it. If the others are like this, then the same problem would apply... get too far from your cleric, and all your buffs shut down.

Better way to apply would be DMM Chain Spell + Reach Spell (or Divine Reach from Heirophant when you get high enough). You can do this with GMW (don't need reach, it's already short duration) and Magic Vestments so that everyone's weapons are +3 of xyz, saving a LOT of gold in the process.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-20, 09:43 PM
Energy Immunity (Spell Compendium, base 24 hours)
That's immunity to one type of energy. You'd need to cast this 5 times to have immunity to all the energy types.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 09:53 PM
Hmm... I still don't see how this applies, except to Mass Lesser Vigor, which has already been covered.

Basically, it gives you an aura of healing... but you get outside 30' of the cleric, and you don't benefit from it. If the others are like this, then the same problem would apply... get too far from your cleric, and all your buffs shut down.
You need to reread the spells he listed more carefully. All of them qualify, and all of them only require the beneficiaries to be within a certain distance at the time of casting. Where they go afterwards has no effect.


Ah, but as a +6 Enhancement strength-booster would run him 36k, and as the Libris Mortis Nightsticks only run 7,500 gp (and technically stack, as the feat they grant does)
That is debatable. They require Extra Turning to make, but the feat is not mentioned in their effect at all. "Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day." Whether that stacks is up to DM interpretation and is commonly ruled (or houseruled depending on your opinion) to not stack. If the DM in this case allows them to stack, then yes Divine Power should be on the list and I could list quite a few more buffs to Persist.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-20, 10:53 PM
Hmm... I still don't see how this applies, except to Mass Lesser Vigor, which has already been covered.

Basically, it gives you an aura of healing... but you get outside 30' of the cleric, and you don't benefit from it. If the others are like this, then the same problem would apply... get too far from your cleric, and all your buffs shut down.

Bursts are distinct from Emanations - they target those in the area, and afterwards, those affected can go wherever they want with no issues, not needing to remain in the area.

Even if they do effectively function like Emanations under your DM, though, it's still better from a group dynamic standpoint that you're not overshadowing anyone else that way - they get boosts when they're within a particular range of you (and most combats will be within that range).


Better way to apply would be DMM Chain Spell + Reach Spell (or Divine Reach from Heirophant when you get high enough). You can do this with GMW (don't need reach, it's already short duration) and Magic Vestments so that everyone's weapons are +3 of xyz, saving a LOT of gold in the process.
Better in some ways, not in others. For the Cleric//Wizard that's using a lot of Wizard bonus feats to pick up the metamagic feats themselves? Sure. For others? The feat cost for DMM (Chain), and DMM (Reach) is painful (four feats - one for Chain Spell, one for Reach Spell, one for Divine Metamagic(Chain Spell), one for Divine Metamagic(Reach Spell)), and it seriously increases your turning cost, as well.

That is debatable. They require Extra Turning to make, but the feat is not mentioned in their effect at all. "Anyone who possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains four more uses of the ability per day." Whether that stacks is up to DM interpretation and is commonly ruled (or houseruled depending on your opinion) to not stack. If the DM in this case allows them to stack, then yes Divine Power should be on the list and I could list quite a few more buffs to Persist.
Like Orange Prism Ioun stones, the bonus type is not listed; like Orange Prism Ioun stones, they can either be considered the same source, or not. True enough.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 10:59 PM
Bursts are distinct from Emanations - they target those in the area, and afterwards, those affected can go wherever they want with no issues, not needing to remain in the area.

Even if they do effectively function like Emanations under your DM, though, it's still better from a group dynamic standpoint that you're not overshadowing anyone else that way - they get boosts when they're within a particular range of you (and most combats will be within that range). Everyone staying inside 30' of the caster isn't easy, and begs to be hit with massive AE damage.


Better in some ways, not in others. For the Cleric//Wizard that's using a lot of Wizard bonus feats to pick up the metamagic feats themselves? Sure. For others? The feat cost for DMM (Chain), and DMM (Reach) is painful (four feats - one for Chain Spell, one for Reach Spell, one for Divine Metamagic(Chain Spell), one for Divine Metamagic(Reach Spell)), and it seriously increases your turning cost, as well. Nah, don't need DMM Reach. Just increase one CL. So that's 2 feats. Even better, Reach Spell means he can turn any of his touch spells into fixed range, and thus persistable.


Like Orange Prism Ioun stones, the bonus type is not listed; like Orange Prism Ioun stones, they can either be considered the same source, or not. True enough.

Personally, as a GM, I'd say only one crack-stick allowed. Otherwise you get totally broken stuff happen. But then again, I also ban titan-chains, pun-pun, omnicifiers, diplomancers (BBEG's turn into DMPC's that are immune to Diplomacy), and other such blatant rules abuse. But that's just me. YYMV.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-20, 11:40 PM
Everyone staying inside 30' of the caster isn't easy, and begs to be hit with massive AE damage.

It's pretty easy in a dungeon environment where the rooms vary in size primarily from 10x10 to 40x40. As for the Area Effect issue, compare to Marshal Auras - not that it matters, as Bursts don't care what range you're at after the initial casting.

Besides - if you're more than 30 feet from the band aid, he can't walk up and Heal you in the middle of battle. Nobody really wants to be too far from the Cleric anyway.


Nah, don't need DMM Reach. Just increase one CL. So that's 2 feats. Even better, Reach Spell means he can turn any of his touch spells into fixed range, and thus persistable.

Let's see... Reach Spell is a +2 Spell Level metamagic feat; Chain Spell is a +3 Spell Level Metamagic adjustment.

For the most part (exceptions being the assorted Immunity spells, such as Freedom of Movement), you're better off going with spells that are higher-level to begin with.


Personally, as a GM, I'd say only one crack-stick allowed. Otherwise you get totally broken stuff happen. But then again, I also ban titan-chains, pun-pun, omnicifiers, diplomancers (BBEG's turn into DMPC's that are immune to Diplomacy), and other such blatant rules abuse. But that's just me. YYMV.Understandable.

Aether
2008-12-21, 12:40 AM
Aren't touch-range spells... already spells that have a fixed range?

The range is touch.

This distance does not change with levels.

Did I miss something again?


Also... I believe the Easy Metamagic Feat lowers the.. cost of Metamagic, right? Would taking Easy Metamagic mean lowering the cost in Turn Undead for Divine Metamagics?

Jack_Simth
2008-12-21, 12:53 AM
Aren't touch-range spells... already spells that have a fixed range?

The range is touch.

This distance does not change with levels.

Did I miss something again?

Sorta.

See, your touch range is variable based on your current size - and as Reduce Person and Enlarge person both change what "touch" means, and they're both first level spells, it is debatable as to whether or not "touch range" is considered "fixed range". Reach spell bypasses that debate completely.


Also... I believe the Easy Metamagic Feat lowers the.. cost of Metamagic, right? Would taking Easy Metamagic mean lowering the cost in Turn Undead for Divine Metamagics?
Potentially - however, unless you've got at least four spells you're doing this to, it's better to take Extra Turning, feat-wise.

Heliomance
2008-12-21, 05:49 AM
How do you work out how much a Bead of Karma is? If you take the price for a Strand of Prayer Beads that's missing the Bead of Healing and Bead of Smiting, you get 0 GP. I feel sure that's not right.

Eldariel
2008-12-21, 05:53 AM
DMG has wrong prices listed. It's been errata'd I believe. Check SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads). How to figure out what a single Bead costs? Their costs are listed in the subtraction guidelines.

olentu
2008-12-21, 06:29 AM
Unfotunatly the price from here

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItem/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads

Price 9,600 gp (lesser), 45,800 gp (standard), 95,800 gp (greater)

does not match up with the price I am getting from the srd on the wizards website

Price 9,600 gp (lesser), 25,800 gp (standard), 95,800 gp (greater)

and unless I am missing it in the DMG errata for 03/12/2004 the price has not been changed.

martyboy74
2008-12-21, 10:31 AM
Sorta.

See, your touch range is variable based on your current size - and as Reduce Person and Enlarge person both change what "touch" means, and they're both first level spells, it is debatable as to whether or not "touch range" is considered "fixed range". Reach spell bypasses that debate completely.

Potentially - however, unless you've got at least four spells you're doing this to, it's better to take Extra Turning, feat-wise.

Dropping from 35 attempts at 7 attempts per to 31 attempts at 6 attempts per is a net gain; 35/7=5, 31/6=5.2.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-21, 11:16 AM
Unfotunatly the price from here

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItem/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads

Price 9,600 gp (lesser), 45,800 gp (standard), 95,800 gp (greater)

does not match up with the price I am getting from the srd on the wizards website WotC published the original SRD, but hasn't updated it. They also didn't bother with updating the DMG errata; instead they went directly to the Magic Item Compendium, which repriced a lot of previously published magic items. The corrected price for a Strand of Prayer Beads (standard version) is on page 263. The d20srd uses the most updated information from all available sources.

Heliomance
2008-12-21, 11:53 AM
I was about to suggest dumping Combat Casting until I noticed Duskblades get it free.

Shift four points of charisma elsewhere, get a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magic Item Compendium) for 2 extra turn attempts, add a single Nightstick, and cast Eagle's Splendor before buffing in the morning. That gets you up to the 35 turn attempts required to Persist 5 spells and gets you some slightly better other ability scores. If your DM allows Nighsticks to stack, of course, pile on some more of those if you can find enough worthwhile buffs for it all.

I'll add a vote to the Cloistered Cleric recommendation.

Get a Bead of Karma from a Necklace/Strand of Prayer Beads (core) and a Ring of Enduring Arcana (Complete Mage) in case of enemy dispels.

I'd recommend the following all-day buffs:
Divine Favor (just spend the 7th level slot, you should have two)
Death Ward
Sheltered Vitality (Spell Compendium)
Holy/Infernal Transformation (Spell Compendium)
Righteous Might
Superior Resistance (Spell Compendium, base duration is 24 hours so no need for Persist)
Heroes' Feast (base 12 hours, should be plenty for a normal day)
Energy Immunity (Spell Compendium, base 24 hours)
Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium) or a homebrewed Lesser Stormrage

The main benefit of Divine Power is full BAB and Duskblade gives you that already.

Of those, Death Ward, Sheltered Vitality and possibly others are Touch. I was fairly sure Touch spells aren't eligable for Persistent Spell.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-21, 01:15 PM
Aren't touch-range spells... already spells that have a fixed range? No. Touch range is dependent on your reach, which varies from 0' to 30' for standard creature sizes (see the table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat)), and may change further via magic. Persistent Spell requires the range to be fixed for all casters.

This distance does not change with levels. Why would that matter? Pesistent Spell doesn't require a spell's range to be fixed only with respect to caster level; it requires its range to be fixed, period: for all casters, of all types, of all sizes, at all levels, and at all times.

BardicDuelist
2008-12-21, 01:48 PM
Fighter or barbarian on the other side would make for the best clericzilla. Possibly Knight.

UserClone
2008-12-21, 02:06 PM
"Touch" is most assuredly a fixed range, that being "whatever is your melee reach." AFAIK, enlarge person does change the range of the spell from "whatever is in your melee reach."

Curmudgeon
2008-12-21, 02:23 PM
"Touch" is most assuredly a fixed range, that being "whatever is your melee reach." By that logic, all spells have a fixed range, that being "whatever is the range at your size/level/whatever".

Come on, just read what you're writing! If it's dependent on any of your properties, the range is not fixed!

Jack_Simth
2008-12-21, 02:25 PM
"Touch" is most assuredly a fixed range, that being "whatever is your melee reach." AFAIK, enlarge person does change the range of the spell from "whatever is in your melee reach."
... as I said; it's debatable. Avoiding touch spells in this is primarily to bypass the debate.

Douglas
2008-12-21, 02:26 PM
"Touch" could also be considered to be "0 feet from your hand", which certainly seems fixed to me.

It's open to debate and RAW is not clear. Ask your DM.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-21, 02:45 PM
"Touch" could also be considered to be "0 feet from your hand" There are no measurements like that in D&D. They're all based on squares and grid intersections.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-21, 03:36 PM
There are no measurements like that in D&D. They're all based on squares and grid intersections.

That's not entirely accurate - see the Symbol of Death. It (and the other Symbol spells that inherit from it) has a range of "0 ft.; see text"

olentu
2008-12-21, 03:48 PM
WotC published the original SRD, but hasn't updated it. They also didn't bother with updating the DMG errata; instead they went directly to the Magic Item Compendium, which repriced a lot of previously published magic items. The corrected price for a Strand of Prayer Beads (standard version) is on page 263. The d20srd uses the most updated information from all available sources.

Oh I already understand that, however that only applies when using the magic item compendium in a game. All I was pointing out is that the price at d20srd.org is inconsistent with the correct price from the real SRD.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-21, 03:55 PM
All I was pointing out is that the price at d20srd.org is inconsistent with the incorrect price from the outdated SRD. I fixed your post for you.

olentu
2008-12-21, 03:57 PM
I fixed your post for you.

The fact that the SRD is outdated does not make D20srd.org any less of an incorrect copy of the outdated material.

Edit: just to be clear I know that the SRD is outdated and I know that the price has been updated in the MIC. I am just pointing out that d20srd.org is not consistent with the actual SRD.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-21, 04:03 PM
The fact that the SRD is outdated does not make D20srd.org any less of an incorrect copy of the outdated material. No, that doesn't make any kind of sense. The d20srd is updated to include all errata, while the WotC SRD is not. That, by WotC's official definition, makes the data at d20srd correct, and their older version incorrect. After all, "errata" is just Latin for "corrections".

olentu
2008-12-21, 04:12 PM
No, that doesn't make any kind of sense. The d20srd is updated to include all errata, while the WotC SRD is not. That, by WotC's official definition, makes the data at d20srd correct, and their older version incorrect. After all, "errata" is just Latin for "corrections".

I would consider it as a rules update rather then eratta.

I am giving consideration to the possibility that someone might have banned all the content of the MIC from their game and thus would have banned the updated price and if this happened I would not want them misled by d20srd.org to allow some information from the MIC into their game because they think that d20srd.org is consistent with the WotC SRD and the DMG eratta.

Heliomance
2008-12-21, 07:28 PM
Final build is here. Any comments?

Jira (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=98333)
N Human - Outsider (lawful, good, archon) Cloistered Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 5/Contemplative 3//Duskblade 13, Level , Init -1, HP 206/176, DR 15/evil, Speed 30ft/x4
AC 33, Touch 26, Flat-footed 33, Fort +21, Ref +9, Will +26, Base Attack Bonus 13
+4 Greatsword +31/+26/+21 (3d6+22, 19-20/x2)
+1 Animated Heavy Wooden Shield (+3 Shield, -1 Dex, -1 Size, +4 Natural, +18 Misc)
Abilities Str 28, Dex 8, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 24, Cha 10
Condition None

Douglas
2008-12-21, 07:32 PM
Why only 5 levels of Divine Oracle and 3 of Contemplative? Improved Uncanny Dodge from DO 6 strikes me as much more useful than the tiny amount of self healing from Contemplative 3.

Heliomance
2008-12-21, 07:34 PM
Because I didn't look at Divine Oracle closely enough to notice that, and it's now 00:35 and I can't be bothered to change it. I'll just grab DO first time we level up.

Douglas
2008-12-21, 08:02 PM
I count 3 DMM Persist spells in your list, where are the other two?

You need to double check the errataed version of Righteous Might. Your strength is correct, but the rest is off.

You forgot the bonus to saves from Holy Transformation.

What's the breakdown of that miscellaneous AC bonus? I know 8 comes from the Monk's Belt, but what gives the other 10?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-21, 09:31 PM
That 8 Dex is going to bite you in the rear... frequently. Other than that, not bad.

olentu
2008-12-22, 01:21 AM
If 8 dex becomes a problem I believe that there is a spell somewhere that gives +10 dex bonus. I am away from my books so I can not check the particulars at the moment but I think it is called divine agility.

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 05:37 AM
I count 3 DMM Persist spells in your list, where are the other two?

You need to double check the errataed version of Righteous Might. Your strength is correct, but the rest is off.

You forgot the bonus to saves from Holy Transformation.

What's the breakdown of that miscellaneous AC bonus? I know 8 comes from the Monk's Belt, but what gives the other 10?

The other two spells are because two of the ones you suggested were invalid targets and it was late enough and I was tired enough that I couldn't be bothered to go trawling through the Spell Compendium looking for other good spells.

Where do I find the errata? I just took the values from the PHB.

Will add save bumps in

The AC bonus is because we're using the class-based defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant rules.

Hmm, if I DMM Persist that Divine Favor as opposed to normal Persisting it, I can DMM persist the 7th level spell Holy Star to give me a +6 circumstance bonus to AC for the day.

Bluelantern
2008-12-22, 10:07 AM
Question: I am the only one that thought in "Godzilla dressed like the pope" when saw this thread title?

Douglas
2008-12-22, 10:43 AM
Where do I find the errata? I just took the values from the PHB.
Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). Or you could just look it up at d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm), which has all the errata updates already edited into the text.


The other two spells are because two of the ones you suggested were invalid targets and it was late enough and I was tired enough that I couldn't be bothered to go trawling through the Spell Compendium looking for other good spells.

Hmm, if I DMM Persist that Divine Favor as opposed to normal Persisting it, I can DMM persist the 7th level spell Holy Star to give me a +6 circumstance bonus to AC for the day.
Take a look at Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Recitation before you settle on that. I'm AFB right now but I think both of those qualify for Persist.

Also, Mass Lesser Vigor would take care of the entire party's out of combat healing needs all day for just one spell.

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 11:24 AM
Ow, that's a pretty nasty nerf they did to Righteous Might. Halved its use, practically.

And now I've got to go back through HeroForge changing all the values for Righteous Might back to what they orignally were. Seems they did have it right.

Righteous Wrath of the Faithful looks good, but Recitation is a luck bonus, and I think I've got one of those running already.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-22, 11:52 AM
Take a look at Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Recitation before you settle on that. I'm AFB right now but I think both of those qualify for Persist.

Also, Mass Lesser Vigor would take care of the entire party's out of combat healing needs all day for just one spell.
Yep - and as a bonus, all three of those benefit the entire party. For that matter, Recitation gives (for you) +3 Luck to AC, saves, and Attack; Divine Favor at your level gives +3 Luck to Attack and Damage - for the most part, Recitation is the better choice.

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 11:56 AM
Aye, just noticed the errata to Divine Favour caps it at a +3 bonus. That's not worth a 7th level slot, I'll drop it.

Douglas
2008-12-22, 12:18 PM
Hmm, yeah, not really worth the slot when Recitation makes the attack bonus part of it redundant.

So, Holy Transformation, Righteous Might, Divine Power, Recitation, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful are my recommendations for Persisting if you want to go purely for combat stats. Personally I'd suggest replacing Divine Power with Mass Lesser Vigor so everyone starts every fight at full hp with no further spell expenditure and getting a belt of giant strength to make up for the loss of the strength bonus.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-22, 12:32 PM
Hmm, yeah, not really worth the slot when Recitation makes the attack bonus part of it redundant.

So, Holy Transformation, Righteous Might, Divine Power, Recitation, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful are my recommendations for Persisting if you want to go purely for combat stats. Personally I'd suggest replacing Divine Power with Mass Lesser Vigor so everyone starts every fight at full hp with no further spell expenditure and getting a belt of giant strength to make up for the loss of the strength bonus.
A reasonable set - personally, when abusing Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), I'm a fan of making *every* DMM(Persistent Spell) cast one that affects the entire party (unless I'm also doubling as the party trapfinder - in which case, add Find Traps and either Detect Magic or Arcane Sight to the list - personal, but no combat effect, and helps everyone out in that there's no traps) - keeps the other players at the table from getting upset.

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 01:25 PM
Don't have enough cash at the moment for anything more than a +2 strength item. I'll probably keep divine power until I can afford a +6 belt, then switch it out for mass lesser vigor.

EDIT: Changed spell selection. Link above will take you to the (now modified) character sheet.

Douglas
2008-12-22, 02:22 PM
You still aren't including the bonus from Holy Transformation in your saves, which is another +4 across the board and a different type (sacred) so it stacks.

I would say pick a deity to worship and tell the rest of the party that anyone following the same deity gets +3 instead of +2 from Recitation, but finding a deity with all three of your domains might be a bit difficult. Especially if you want a good aligned deity with the Undeath domain.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-22, 02:35 PM
You might consider Magic Vestments - they can be applied to clothing, and give you an armor bonus without any actual armor. It's a cheap +4 to AC if you use the Bead of Karma.

Douglas
2008-12-22, 02:41 PM
Armor bonus doesn't stack with the class defense bonus variant he's using. It would need to be +11 or more to give any benefit.

Jack_Simth
2008-12-22, 02:45 PM
Armor bonus doesn't stack with the class defense bonus variant he's using. It would need to be +11 or more to give any benefit.
Ah, that makes sense as to why he'd not do so, then. Fair enough.

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 03:16 PM
You still aren't including the bonus from Holy Transformation in your saves, which is another +4 across the board and a different type (sacred) so it stacks.

I would say pick a deity to worship and tell the rest of the party that anyone following the same deity gets +3 instead of +2 from Recitation, but finding a deity with all three of your domains might be a bit difficult. Especially if you want a good aligned deity with the Undeath domain.

It would only need to have Planning and Undeath, I think. Contemplative bonus domain is just pick whatever you like, isn't it?

Jack_Simth
2008-12-22, 03:18 PM
It would only need to have Planning and Undeath, I think. Contemplative bonus domain is just pick whatever you like, isn't it?
Nope - still has to be offered by the deity - unlike the Divine Oracle, which gives the Oracle domain regardless of whether or not it's in the portfolio.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-22, 04:34 PM
So worship a concept rather than a diety, and get all the domains you feel necessary.

tonberrian
2008-12-22, 04:40 PM
So worship a concept rather than a diety, and get all the domains you feel necessary.

I think that's what he's doing. The point in choosing a Deity is because Recititation better bonuses to other worshippers of that Deity.

Douglas
2008-12-22, 04:40 PM
Which is exactly what he's doing already. It's just a bit harder to justify his party worshiping the same thing to get the full +3 from Recitation.

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 04:41 PM
Hmm, in that case, could someone help me come up with a concept that would fit with Undeath, Planning and Storm? It's looking to be a fairly RP heavy game, I'm likely to be called on it, I think.

Douglas
2008-12-22, 04:44 PM
The creation of undead via carefully planned rituals involving storms, a la the classic Frankenstein stereotype (which isn't actually all that accurate to the original IIRC), similar to how Roy got turned into a bone golem?:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 04:47 PM
Hardly a concept you could worship :smallyuk::smallwink:

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-22, 04:48 PM
Hmm, in that case, could someone help me come up with a concept that would fit with Undeath, Planning and Storm? It's looking to be a fairly RP heavy game, I'm likely to be called on it, I think.

Concept: Death to Undead.

In brief, one must never loose vigilance, but carefully study and seek out undead wherever it may be. Once your planning is complete, be like the storm, with your fury will be unleashed on those who defy the natural cycle of life and death.

Remember, he's taking the UNDEATH domain, which is 'kill all undead', not DEATH domain, which is creating undead.

tonberrian
2008-12-22, 04:51 PM
The ritualized search for and control of mystical storms that raise those who die within as undead.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-22, 04:55 PM
The ritualized search for and control of mystical storms that raise those who die within as undead.

Undeath does not mean CREATING undead, it means DESTROYING it. One of the domain spells is Death to Undeath, which is pretty much Circle of Death specifically targeting Undead.

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 04:56 PM
I think you meant Undeath to Death there.

tonberrian
2008-12-22, 04:59 PM
Undeath does not mean CREATING undead, it means DESTROYING it. One of the domain spells is Death to Undeath, which is pretty much Circle of Death specifically targeting Undead.

Are we looking at the same Undeath domain? The one in my Spell Compendium has Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, and Desecrate, but no Undeath to Death.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-22, 05:11 PM
Maybe you're thinking of the Repose domain, which is the "kinder, gentler" version. Living Greyhawk uses this as the replacement for the Death domain, because one of their rules is no PCs can be evil. Many of the spells in the Death and Undeath domains are tagged [Evil]. Death and Undeath are similar; think of them as counterparts to the Magic and Spell domains.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-22, 05:38 PM
Maybe you're thinking of the Repose domain, which is the "kinder, gentler" version. Living Greyhawk uses this as the replacement for the Death domain, because one of their rules is no PCs can be evil. Many of the spells in the Death and Undeath domains are tagged [Evil]. Death and Undeath are similar; think of them as counterparts to the Magic and Spell domains.

I do believe you're right, I was thinking Repose. :smallredface:

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 07:39 PM
Updated my saves.

I'm still struggling to think of a way to link Undeath, Planning and Storm into a cause and come up with a backstory that justifies it. I think I may have to drop Storm, unfortunately, and leave the master of the storm flavour for a different character. So, are there any gods that offer both undeath and planning? If not, what would be a reasonable cause?

tonberrian
2008-12-22, 07:51 PM
So weathermen hunting storms that raise the dead is no good, huh? I think it's awesome, though, and will keep it in mind for the campaign setting I am half-heartedly creating in my spare time.

You only need Planning for Extend Spell, right? How much would it hurt your build to put in two levels of Shadow Caster somewhere? They can get a bonus feat for every 2 levels, which can be used for any metamagic feat.

Heliomance
2008-12-22, 08:07 PM
Not sure I can fit it in anywhere, really.