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Fawsto
2008-12-20, 01:46 PM
Sup, guys, I was wondering if I read the DMM feat correctly. It seems, and I hope I am wrong, that you do not require to Know the Metamagic Feat you are applying trought DMM to the spell.

I mean, my character must have, for example, Extend Spell before I choose DMM: Extend Spell as his next feat, right?

I am really in doubt here, I hope you guys can clarify it.

See Ya,

Noneoyabizzness
2008-12-20, 01:51 PM
seesm to readlike the sudden metamagics. you dont need still to sudden still

AmberVael
2008-12-20, 01:56 PM
Sup, guys, I was wondering if I read the DMM feat correctly. It seems, and I hope I am wrong, that you do not require to Know the Metamagic Feat you are applying trought DMM to the spell.

I mean, my character must have, for example, Extend Spell before I choose DMM: Extend Spell as his next feat, right?

I am really in doubt here, I hope you guys can clarify it.

See Ya,

It didn't actually say that in the feat requirements until the Errata, but it has been Errata'd in.

mabriss lethe
2008-12-20, 01:57 PM
I think there's an errata floating around somewhere.

IIRC, post errata, you have to know the metamagic you're using with DMM.

--ninja'd

Coidzor
2008-12-20, 02:18 PM
So wait, you have to take a metamagic feat and then the divine metamagic version of that feat in order to apply that feat to divine magic?

That is, you would have to buy Extend spell, then buy DMM: Extend Spell?

Where are the rules on divine metamagic anyway?

Douglas
2008-12-20, 02:21 PM
Divine Metamagic is in Complete Divine. It is a feat that allows you to spend turn attempts instead of increased spell slot level to apply a chosen metamagic feat to your divine spells. As originally written it had no prerequisites beyond the ability to turn or rebuke undead. With errata, you must also have the metamagic feat you intend to use it with.

DMM is not necessary to use metamagic with divine spells at all, it just allows you to pay the cost in a different way.

Gorbash
2008-12-20, 02:49 PM
Not only that, with DMM you can use metamagic on spells that normally can't be metamagicked (9th lvl) since not all metamagic feats have Rods of it. Persist being the obvious example.

Seatbelt
2008-12-20, 03:23 PM
Persistent storm of vengeance makes me giggle. That would make an awesome BBEG.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 03:30 PM
Storm of Vengeance isn't eligible for Persistent Spell, though. Persistent Spell requires a personal or fixed range, and Storm of Vengeance's range varies with caster level.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-20, 03:33 PM
...persistent locate city?

Douglas
2008-12-20, 03:36 PM
Invalid for the same reason, plus it is instantaneous and Persistent Spell also require non-instantaneous duration.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-20, 03:41 PM
Invalid for the same reason, plus it is instantaneous and Persistent Spell also require non-instantaneous duration.

Locate city has a fixed radius (unless it doesn't act like locate person), but yeah, I forgot the "non-instantaneous" clause.

Douglas
2008-12-20, 04:51 PM
Even Locate Creature has range "Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)", which is invalid for Persistent Spell. Locate City has an area/range of 10 miles/level, which is both invalid for the feat and the main reason the Locate City bomb is so ridiculous.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-20, 05:03 PM
Even Locate Creature has range "Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)", which is invalid for Persistent Spell. Locate City has an area/range of 10 miles/level, which is both invalid for the feat and the main reason the Locate City bomb is so ridiculous.

OH. I'm mixing up locate creature with helping hand. *smacks forehead* Silly Mark of Finding.

The Glyphstone
2008-12-20, 07:41 PM
You could pair it with Ocular Spell, giving it a fixed range of 60ft, but that ruins the point of the Locate City Bomb.

Spells like Thunderhead, on the other hand, are better. 1 Electrical damage/round isn't a lot - until you Persist it. That's 1 damage/round for 24 hours, or 14,400 damage, with a separate Reflex save for each point. For anything that doesn't have Electricity Resistance and less than 720HP, it's basically a guaranteed kill. A sloooooooow and painful kill.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-20, 08:10 PM
You can get DMM (metamagic feat), but it's pointless without the attached metamagic feat, because you have nothing you can apply it to.

Take, for example, the infamous DMM Persist. Sure, you *can* take it before you get Persist spell, but without Persist Spell, you can't use it, because it affects Persist Spell feat. It's like taking Weapon Specialization in a weapon that doesn't exist.

The only thing DMM (metamagic) does is that it lets you use that feat by blowing turn attempts instead of extra spell-levels. Without the metamagic feat it alters, the feat itself is worthless.

Deth Muncher
2008-12-20, 08:43 PM
You could pair it with Ocular Spell, giving it a fixed range of 60ft, but that ruins the point of the Locate City Bomb.

Spells like Thunderhead, on the other hand, are better. 1 Electrical damage/round isn't a lot - until you Persist it. That's 1 damage/round for 24 hours, or 14,400 damage, with a separate Reflex save for each point. For anything that doesn't have Electricity Resistance and less than 720HP, it's basically a guaranteed kill. A sloooooooow and painful kill.

Electro-shock torture ftw?:smalleek:

Fawsto
2008-12-20, 09:13 PM
Thanks Gods... This feat was already cheesy by allowing the Metamagic-ing of higher level spells, if it had no obvious pre-reqs it would be extreme broken, like, more than it is right now.

monty
2008-12-20, 09:16 PM
Spells like Thunderhead, on the other hand, are better. 1 Electrical damage/round isn't a lot - until you Persist it. That's 1 damage/round for 24 hours, or 14,400 damage, with a separate Reflex save for each point. For anything that doesn't have Electricity Resistance and less than 720HP, it's basically a guaranteed kill. A sloooooooow and painful kill.

That's...really evil. Combine with a persisted Lesser Vigor and you have a very effective torture method.

Bosh
2008-12-21, 01:49 AM
Thanks Gods... This feat was already cheesy by allowing the Metamagic-ing of higher level spells, if it had no obvious pre-reqs it would be extreme broken, like, more than it is right now.

Yes, I would STRONGLY recommend banning it in any game you GM. Basically anything that makes an already overpowered class (Druid, Cleric and Wizard) more powerful should be smacked good and hard with the ban stick.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-21, 12:44 PM
Here's a useful link to save: Official D&D Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a). The files aren't really convenient, because they're all ZIPs containing PDFs. But you should go to the trouble of downloading, unzipping, and printing for each of the D&D books you have, and tucking them inside the book. They'll never get updated again since 4th edition is out (and hardly ever got updated before that), so once is all it will take for each book.

mikethepoor
2008-12-21, 09:13 PM
In a slightly related vein, could one Persist an Ice Axe (from Spell Compendium, listed range 0 feet) at all, whether through DMM or not?

Curmudgeon
2008-12-22, 12:31 PM
Yes, you could persist Ice Axe. You couldn't use that hand for anything that required it to be empty, such as the Snatch Arrows feat.

HolderofSecrets
2008-12-22, 01:27 PM
Why does everyone want Persist DMM? Every decent Optimizer knows that has a huge weakness. Its called Dispell in any of its forms. You would be better off with Quickened DMM. Its less game breaking and more useful and if memory serves it takes less feats.

imperialspectre
2008-12-22, 01:30 PM
Why does everyone want Persist DMM? Every decent Optimizer knows that has a huge weakness. Its called Dispell in any of its forms. You would be better off with Quickened DMM. Its less game breaking and more useful and if memory serves it takes less feats.

It takes one fewer feat, because Quicken has no prerequisite. But Extend Spell is very useful for a buffing character.

Also, Quicken only works if you have relatively few encounters in a day, as the two fewer turn attempts don't make up for the fact that a quickened buff is usually good for only the following encounter.

Dispelling is a threat to persistent buffs, but it can be largely neutralized by investing in caster level boosts, such as prayer beads, the ioun stone that increases caster level, and feats that boost caster level for dispel checks.

jcsw
2008-12-22, 01:37 PM
It takes one fewer feat, because Quicken has no prerequisite. But Extend Spell is very useful for a buffing character.

Also, Quicken only works if you have relatively few encounters in a day, as the two fewer turn attempts don't make up for the fact that a quickened buff is usually good for only the following encounter.

Dispelling is a threat to persistent buffs, but it can be largely neutralized by investing in caster level boosts, such as prayer beads, the ioun stone that increases caster level, and feats that boost caster level for dispel checks.

Also a ring of counterspells with greater dispel stored in it.

HolderofSecrets
2008-12-22, 01:48 PM
It takes one fewer feat, because Quicken has no prerequisite. But Extend Spell is very useful for a buffing character.

Also, Quicken only works if you have relatively few encounters in a day, as the two fewer turn attempts don't make up for the fact that a quickened buff is usually good for only the following encounter.

Dispelling is a threat to persistent buffs, but it can be largely neutralized by investing in caster level boosts, such as prayer beads, the ioun stone that increases caster level, and feats that boost caster level for dispel checks.

Stop thinking in buffs. Clerics have combat spells and other nasty surprises they can use quicken on that they cant use Persist on. It would effectively double the number of spells you can cast per round also. You should be thinking in terms of quickened Storm of Vengeance or Implosion.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-22, 01:55 PM
Why does everyone want Persist DMM? Every decent Optimizer knows that has a huge weakness. Its called Dispell in any of its forms. You would be better off with Quickened DMM. Its less game breaking and more useful and if memory serves it takes less feats.

And burns up both more actions and more spells.

Consider your typical 'four encounters per day'.

If you DMM Persist, those spells last all day, for all four encounters. You don't need to spend actions during combat to use them.

If you DMM Quicken, then you need to blow actions on them, because you can only use one quickened action per turn. So, to be able to bring up the five buffs he's talking about, it would cost you 3 turns, by which time combat is probably over.

Also if you're using DMM Quicken, you're also blowing four times as many spells on buffing. You need to recast them every combat.

Yes, DMM Persist is vulnerable to Dispelling. However, not many times will you run across something that can Dispel, or will get a chance to before it gets squished.

Furthermore, you can STILL do things like Implosion... if you really want to. However, this build doesn't need to. He can just wade into the middle, dropping a Heal on a buddy if someone needs it, but mostly showing up the main tank.

imperialspectre
2008-12-22, 01:56 PM
Storm of Vengeance requires concentration to work, so there's very little reason to quicken it. You could cast a normal spell, then drop quickened Storm of Vengeance and sit there for a few rounds, but it hurts your own side just as much as it hurts the enemy.

Implosion is also concentration-duration, and only kills a maximum of 4 creatures.

Bottom line: let the party wizard do control and save-or-lose at that high of a level, clerics have so many good buffing spells that they're way better off doing that and then helping out the melee'ers on the front line. The best way you can take advantage of the action economy as a spellcaster is to spend those actions out of combat, so you can spend other actions once combat starts.

Edited to add: Spells that don't offer saves, such as Holy Word, are still good choices for clerics, but there isn't much of a reason to quicken them, especially if you can quicken a lower-level spell in a high-level slot and still have it do some good. In situations where you MUST spam spells as much as possible, just buy rods of quicken.

HolderofSecrets
2008-12-22, 02:06 PM
Did you guys completely miss the line of "Less game Breaking." In other words its less likely to get you or DMM banned from game. Sure bring DMM persist to game. Be the only shiny light of power in the party short of the Wizard. Take all the fun and see if your DM approves of your style. Or you could go DMM Quicken and maybe buff your allies and yet the fighter do his job and maybe use some spells to kill a monster or 2.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-22, 02:08 PM
You should be thinking in terms of quickened Storm of Vengeance or Implosion. Huh? That doesn't make much sense for either of these spells because both require concentration, which precludes casting a later spell and uses up a standard action in each round. This means that you would only benefit from having applied Quicken Spell to either of these if you had already used a standard action or cast a spell that wasn't immediate or swift in the round; otherwise it's a poor return for all those turn attempts, resulting in only an extra move action or two. You'd be better off quickening spells that didn't require concentration; then you could cast those as swift actions and still be able to crank out Implosion or Storm of Vengeance.

HolderofSecrets
2008-12-22, 02:11 PM
Huh? That doesn't make much sense for either of these spells because both require concentration, which precludes casting a later spell and uses up a standard action in each round. This means that you would only benefit from having applied Quicken Spell to either of these if you had already used a standard action or cast a spell that wasn't immediate or swift in the round; otherwise it's a poor return for all those turn attempts, resulting in only an extra move action or two. You'd be better off quickening spells that didn't require concentration; then you could cast those as swift actions and still be able to crank out Implosion or Storm of Vengeance.

Honestly I didn't pick the spells for there power I would been to go through several books to find good spells for every level and I really didn't have time.

imperialspectre
2008-12-22, 02:15 PM
Did you guys completely miss the line of "Less game Breaking." In other words its less likely to get you or DMM banned from game. Sure bring DMM persist to game. Be the only shiny light of power in the party short of the Wizard. Take all the fun and see if your DM approves of your style. Or you could go DMM Quicken and maybe buff your allies and yet the fighter do his job and maybe use some spells to kill a monster or 2.

First, the parties I tend to play in usually have a Warblade or Crusader as the party fighter, and a Beguiler or Factotum as the skillmonkey, so blowing away the rest of the party isn't quite as big a concern.

Second, the DMM Persist cleric doesn't overshadow everyone else in the group when s/he's persisting Recitation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, etc. Check out the parallel discussion over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100148&page=4), specifically the spells that people recommend for persisting. If you make everyone else better too, you may be the most powerful character in the party, but you're not overshadowing the party. Usually, you're making them feel better about themselves.

Third, we've already explained why clerics are generally better off killing monsters in melee, rather than by spellcasting. The wizard spell list is way better in terms of destroying the enemy, aside from gems like Holy Word, which are well worth the standard action. Besides, spending a standard action on killing/debuffing horribly the enemies in your way lets the other party members kill the debuffed enemies.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-22, 02:31 PM
Why does everyone want Persist DMM? Every decent Optimizer knows that has a huge weakness. Its called Dispell in any of its forms. You would be better off with Quickened DMM. Its less game breaking and more useful and if memory serves it takes less feats.

Every decent optimizer knows that every level 11 DMM Persist Cleric is casting at CL 19, and so isn't likely to be dispelled much at all.

Douglas
2008-12-22, 02:46 PM
Every decent optimizer knows that every level 11 DMM Persist Cleric is casting at CL 19, and so isn't likely to be dispelled much at all.
Or higher. There are plenty more things you can pile on top of the basic Bead of Karma and Ring of Enduring Arcana if you really try for it.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-22, 03:01 PM
Or higher. There are plenty more things you can pile on top of the basic Bead of Karma and Ring of Enduring Arcana if you really try for it.

Of course, just pointing out how completely not an issue Dispel is.

Also, aside from Domain and PrC bonuses, you can't have many of them at level 11. Not enough money yet.

At least not if you want two +1 Splitting Longbows for your Arrow Demon Polymorph.