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quiet1mi
2008-12-20, 08:45 PM
is it possible to create a good-aligned villain or antagonist? If so, how would the BBGG act, how would they oppose my players? the desired result is an antagonist or lower boss that has sacred vows and things like vow of peace,poverty and nonviolence...

Paramour Pink
2008-12-20, 08:47 PM
PCs are often violent and heavy-handed. A Vow of Peace holder lets his words do the fighting. Throw in political intrigue and you have instant conflict. :smallsmile:

afroakuma
2008-12-20, 08:51 PM
is it possible to create a good-aligned villain or antagonist? If so, how would the BBGG act, how would they oppose my players? the desired result is an antagonist or lower boss that has sacred vows and things like vow of peace,poverty and nonviolence...

Of course. An anarchist who undermines the best works of the government to draw favor for his position believes in poverty, but in a very I'm-right-you're-wrong way.

Also see Knight Templar villains, and of course Miko.

quiet1mi
2008-12-20, 09:28 PM
The main problem is that when I see a Knight Templar I see a Lawful Neutral (possibly Evil if the main villain is doing his job) character and the vows specifically say you must me Good... So any Ideas about a Chaotic-Neutral-Lawful good character standing in the way of the Players.

Bingo:

Have the bad guy specifically state that the players must be stopped or people will die starting tonight [cue laughter]...
Have an authority figure declare the players to be a menace to society that needs to be brought to justice...


Any other thought on how good characters can fight other good characters, or how an Exalted Character can willingly fight a group of PCs?

Flickerdart
2008-12-20, 09:38 PM
Say, the players killed his beloved but unfortunately rather Black Dragon-ish half-Uncle with funny ideas about how the world should work. Maybe he was crazy, and so his loving relatives kept him in his cave with a big pile of shiny gold which he didn't want to leave because he was, like all dragons, greedy and also paranoid. Then some chumps come, kill him and take the gold. Revenge! cry the nephews and take up arms...

Myatar_Panwar
2008-12-20, 09:43 PM
Pretty simple isn't it? If your nation is in conflict with another, then you could very well be fighting against good people. Everyone is just fighting for what they believe is right. It doesn't have to be good v. evil.

Another: I see it as one man with lots of political power looking at the PC's and seeing nothing but trouble. With not much other choice, he trys to apprehend them any way possible to protect his people. From that point on the PC's must fight against the goverment or become imprisoned themselves.

It also doesn't have to deal with only political powers. Another scenario: A village is dying because of some disease. They have become aware that the only cure lies in the consumption of some rare plant. The PC's eventually find the plant, but the druids are protecting it. They say its the life blood of the forest, something they've worshiped for their whole lives. The PC's in this situation are pretty much forced to attack in order to save the people.

It's all just a matter of point of view.

Iudex Fatarum
2008-12-20, 09:59 PM
The villain in Serenity is kind of a good example, someone who is wiling to follow orders because he believes that it is necessary. perhaps a second in command of an intelligence minster or some-such. perhaps he even gives the PC's a chance to surrender and leave. A bounty hunter who is chasing an evil NPC in the party (or perhaps reformed PC who ran from justice). That is another classic, will the party betray their friend? or will they kill the authorities?

Copper8642
2008-12-20, 10:36 PM
In Ogre Battle 64, in case you've played it about half of the Lodisian (Lodis is the big bad enemy country) troops are holy and righteous soldiers (the other half really are power crazed self serving scum), but make great villains.

quiet1mi
2008-12-21, 02:02 AM
good ideas, thanks for the help

Hida Reju
2008-12-21, 02:12 AM
The best villian is the misguided but fanatic idealist. For example..

Two lawful countries at war with each other over resources. PC's on one side and the enmey Bard leading an small squad of scouts deep into enemy territory to free a captured general (Imprisoned for war crimes).

Pick any bad guy ???(Opposed the PC's in something that got fatal), turns out he was a spy working for an order of Paladins to root out evil. Now the Brother or Sister shows up to avenge his family.

Lawful Neutral hero with his or hers family held hostage and must fight the PC's until they manage to free the family.

Mewtarthio
2008-12-21, 02:13 AM
On their latest adventure, the PCs get infected by some sort of force from the Far Realms. Their very presence becomes a blight on the earth, destabilizing the surrounding fabric of reality. Left unchecked, the PCs will destroy the cosmos with their very presence. They have a convenient plot hook that could lead them to the cure, but the villain isn't willing to risk its failure.

Prometheus
2008-12-21, 02:30 AM
Survival is tough. If the natural hazards/rampaging monsters/zombie apocalypse becomes severe enough, people's own preference for the people that they know are magnified and outsiders are shunned. Or worse, people make very cold decisions about utility (say, excluding children, elderly, and disabled), because it serves the greater good which is very immediate. Those who have tragic things happen to them either become completely demoralized and useless or desperate and mad. The best part of it is if the PCs see it enough, they can't help but realize that these aren't bad people, but hard choices in bad times. That way, they have to act intelligently and with regard to the humanity of others.

AslanCross
2008-12-21, 02:55 AM
Throwing in some red herrings is a good way to draw attention away from your true BBEG and make the PCs go for the obvious guy.

Xefas
2008-12-21, 11:05 AM
The PCs have been foreseen by the Good Powers That Be (Erathaol the Seer?) as being totally wicked awesome, but unfortunately, they will fall short of defeating the true evil that is destined to awaken in the future.

To this end, the Good Powers must subject the PCs to a hellish onslaught of seemingly vile evils and insurmountable foes, so that one day, when the real evil rears its ugly head, the PCs will have already seen it all, and will vanquish them.

In reality, the plot and enemies are all carefully constructed out of a private Demiplane (courtesy of a few Genesis castings), and some transmuted (or illusioned) Archons/Eladrin/Furries/Angels who are willing to lay down their lives for the greater good.

It's like the Heaven-Matrix.

Mewtarthio
2008-12-21, 03:09 PM
The villain is a good wizard, but is quite mad and horribly incompetent. When he binds a Balor to bring the PCs to him so that he can brief them on the horrible evil they must face, the Balor opts to burn down a village to draw them out and attempts to bring them in a soul bind gem. When the PCs want to visit him, they must battle through a deadly dungeon filled with traps that the villain simply refuses to disable--because, after all, what if an evil force attacks while the PCs are on the way? He rewards the PCs by taking their loved ones on a free resort vacation, only the resort's not quite done yet, so he's storing them in the stasis prison until he's ready.

Thorin
2008-12-21, 03:29 PM
Good Villain?
A cleric or paladin acting for "the greater good", with a twisted a supportive deity. Also could imply a heavy-morale argument.

Religion and politics... the DM problem solver!

Neithan
2008-12-21, 03:33 PM
I think when you want to go Good versus Good, it's a good idea to think of a Order versus Chaos theme. There are two options for solving a problem, but each party thinks the solution of the other side to be completely unacceptible.
There are chances for a truth between two countries at war and the good nation agrees to hand a part of the land over to the bad nation. But the bad nation demands that everyone has to leave the land and the good nation has to remove all remaining guerilla fighters. But they just don't want to obey the order of retreat.

Or someone did a crime for which he was only partly responsible. One good party sees exile or forced labour on a dangerous island as the punishment required by law, but another good party thinks that this is much to hard. As both sides are good, they probably don't want things to get violent, but it can still turn into strong opposition and less-than lethal manhunt.

Or some people are charged with a minor crime and hunted by the law, but they have a very urgent matter at hand and simply cannot afford to spend some weeks in prision while other people really need their help.

Or hostages. One good party is forced to commit crimes against another good party, but it's not something so evil, that they would outrightly refuse to cooperate. Maybe infilitrating a stronghold to steal a valuebale object or document, or spy on the local rulers and authorities, so the bad party can evade a trap that is about to set up for them, but they don't know what it will be.

This was very nicely done towards the end of the Baldur's Gate series, and a huge surprise when I played it back than (which I will not spoil here. :smallwink: )

Iudex Fatarum
2008-12-22, 08:26 AM
Seeing the order versus chaos, How about a good assassin who kills an evil governor, the king orders his trusty paladin squad to find the assassin and arrest him. Sounds like the perfect plot hook, especially for a mid level campaign.

woodenbandman
2008-12-22, 08:58 AM
Have the good guy be sent by an evil king? Stupidity just oozes this trope, good example being Miko (though Shojo wasn't really evil), and Anakin Skywalker being sent by the emperor. The good guy just doesn't see what is really wrong and he believes the guy with the power hiding under the label of "good." That or you could have a good guy whose family is held hostage by a clearly evil guy (kind of like the emperor and Anakin, only the guy is aware of it).

Neithan
2008-12-22, 09:08 AM
But Anakin Skywalker was never good.

only1doug
2008-12-22, 02:23 PM
is it possible to create a good-aligned villain or antagonist? If so, how would the BBGG act, how would they oppose my players? the desired result is an antagonist or lower boss that has sacred vows and things like vow of peace,poverty and nonviolence...

It's very possible if your BBGG is fighting against (or being manipulated by) a hidden evil that no one else is aware of.

the King (prince, duke, etc) asks that the party neutralise the person (BBGG) who is sabotaging all his plans. The BBGG is the only one who has the evidence that proves that the King (prince, duke, whatever) is an imposter (murderer, usurper, whatever). The party are warned that he will attempt to fool them, Hilarity ensues and BBGG probably gets murdered (by the party, by assassins, by BBEG) and the party realise they have to carry on his work (or are oblivious for years until they finally face the BBEG).

Dannoth
2008-12-22, 02:34 PM
An lazy evil NPC Necromancer.

Lives relatively close to town.
Has never harmed a living human.

Only attacks the PCs after they kick down the door to his tower and destroy some of his servants.

Krrth
2008-12-22, 03:05 PM
If you can find it, try reading this book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villains_by_Necessity). The forces of Evil must save the World from being destroyed by the forces of Good.

It should give you some decent ideas.

Human Paragon 3
2008-12-22, 03:08 PM
The PCs have been foreseen by the Good Powers That Be (Erathaol the Seer?) as being totally wicked awesome, but unfortunately, they will fall short of defeating the true evil that is destined to awaken in the future.

To this end, the Good Powers must subject the PCs to a hellish onslaught of seemingly vile evils and insurmountable foes, so that one day, when the real evil rears its ugly head, the PCs will have already seen it all, and will vanquish them.

In reality, the plot and enemies are all carefully constructed out of a private Demiplane (courtesy of a few Genesis castings), and some transmuted (or illusioned) Archons/Eladrin/Furries/Angels who are willing to lay down their lives for the greater good.

It's like the Heaven-Matrix.

Heaven Ender's Game?