[3.5] Battle Bard

[quiet1mi]

While reading the joker and being reminded of cleric-zilla, I was wondering if there was a build floating around for a battle bard...I am wondering because when I play as a Bard I don't want this character to be reduced to "just the face" of the group.

the attributes are generated off of point buy (32 points) and the character starts at level 8... and 27,000 gp.

I was never any good when it came to optimizing point buy...:smallsigh:

I noticed that with a bard's Inspire courage, his attack bonus is equal to a Fighter's attack bonus (base).. this has inspired me to create a bard that can hold his own in combat...

Things I know that are necessary...

Save or Suck spells that target multiple saves (will,fort,and reflex).
Haste is a must as it allows you to attack multiple times...


Things I am unsure of...

Is charm monster and person necessary as you can use suggestion with you bardic music
The existence of quality bardic combat feats and prestige classes

[Vortling]

You require Snowflake Wardance (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Snowflake_Wardance,Fr) and Dragonfire Inspiration (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragonfire_Inspiration,DMag). I'd also suggest a single level dip in battledancer for the CHA to AC.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Charm/Dominate is for combat. Suggestion is for out of combat. If you're already hostile, Suggestion automatically fails.

There's a lot of good feats. Complete Adventurer is full of handy ones, Complete Mage has a few as well.

CompAdv: Disguise Spell (cast spell during performance, deny opponents Spellcraft check), Green Ear (affect plants), Lingering Song (song effects last even after song stops), Mobile Spellcasting (cast while moving), Versitile Performer (gain number of Perform skills that you can use at your highest perform rank), Ironskin Song (bardic music gives DR 5/-), Lyric Spell (blow bardic music uses to cast spell instead of spending spell slot)

CompMage: Captivating Melody (blow Bard Music to increase DC of illusion or enchantment spells); Melodic Casting (be able to cast spells with Verbal/Somatic components while using Bardic Music and replace Concentration checks with Perform checks), Rapid Metamagic (if you want to use Quicken Spell), Somatic Weaponry (can cast spells with Somatic component while hands full)

Don't forget the feat in CompArc that lets you cast in Medium Armor (like Mithral Full Plate)

What in particular are you wanting to do with this Battle Bard? Charge in while buffing friends? Being a 'front-liner'? There's some very good PrC's depending on what you want to do.

"Buff-O-Matic" War Weaver! Bards get all the good 4th level and under buffs. Freedom of Movement being paramount among them. And for a move action, everyone gets all of them. So your first turn is: Drop 4 buffs as a move action, then drop Haste as my standard action. Rest of party turns you into jullean fries.

[Immutep]

If you want an arcane caster that's a reasonable front line trooper then bard is the way to go as the basis, getting better HD, BAB & Skills/lvl Than wizard/Sorceror. But where are you going with this? What function is the bard playing in the party? Generally the bards abilities mean he's a jack of all trades but if you want him to be optimized for Direct combat? Booster for rest of tanks?

Also what Prestige classes/sourcebooks are available? I think it would be kind of different to see a bard/dragon disciple (directly adding to your combat prowess and spells/day, but at a cost of bard abilities/day) but i don't know if this is the right route for you. Give us more info please.

[Keld Denar]

Screw straight bard. If you want to fully realize your bardic badassness, you would do well to multiclass into Warblade. A Bardblade using the Song of hte White Raven feat allows you to progress your IC ability while retaining 19/20 BAB and gaining a ton of useful melee abilities. Duel wielding with Dragonfire Inspiration AND Xing Mongoose boosts while initiating Poucing Charge and similar mobility maneuvers will allow you to scythe through your foes like so much grain. Bard4/Warblade16 is VERY strong.

[Hal]

There's other threads on the site with info on how to boost Inspire Courage through the roof, so search those out. They're very good for a combat bard. While Dragonfire Inspiration and Warblade are both good suggestions for a battle bard, not every DM will allow Dragon Magazine feats (whatever issue DI comes from) and not everybody has access to Warblade. Not knowing what the OP's situation is, some alternatives:

Bard/Paladin is a good multiclass mix. It most definitely requires Devoted Performer, a feat in PHB2 that lets the class levels stack for a few of the features (bardic music, smite, lay on hands). The charisma synergy is good, and the Paladin levels provide the combat expertise. You'll just have to decide if you want to focus on Bardic spellcasting or Paladin spellcasting (Bard4/Pal16 vs. Pal4/Bard16).

In a "core only" game, Bards work well with either tripping/disarm builds or as archers. Since they get proficiency with whips, slapping Improved Trip/Disarm on there can make them quite effective when stacked with Bardic Music, too. Archer bards get the same bonus; it's usually hard to boost archery damage, but Bardic Music allows for a nice improvement. This also lets you dish out damage without having to be in melee range (which can be scary with a d6 hit die).

[Keld Denar]

Dragonfire Inspiration is NOT in a Dragon Magazing, its in the book Dragon Magic, which is an actual published hard cover book, totally seperate from the Dragon Compendium (collection of Dragon Mag stuff) or any other Dragon Mag published material.

Just sayin...

Dragon Magic is also the same book that gave us Dragonfire Adepts, one of the most fun and powerful-without-being-game-breaking-like-a-wizard control classes of 3.5. Check em out, they are awesome.

EDIT:
Oh, and tripping with a Bard tends to be rather unreliable as well. Given the lack of focus on STR, and the fact that IC does abolutely NOTHING for trip attempts (it does for disarm though), bards don't do too well with that role. Well, at least not better than someone who actually focused on it.

[Hal]

Dragonfire Inspiration is NOT in a Dragon Magazing, its in the book Dragon Magic, which is an actual published hard cover book, totally seperate from the Dragon Compendium (collection of Dragon Mag stuff) or any other Dragon Mag published material.

Just sayin...


Sorry, I guess I got confused because people just tend to say it's a "Dragon feat" without truly specifying the source. I stand corrected.

[quiet1mi]

Ideally I was going to work out a bard into a gish... shut down what you cannot fight and fight what you cannot shut down...

Similar to the dusk-blade but more save or suck rather than save or take damage

Ideally the books allowed would be...
The complete series
Players handbook 1 & 2
monster manual (can you ability focus bardic music?)
Libris Mortis (don't bother)
book of nine swords (tome of battle)
hero's of battle & horror

also how do people feel about reckless offense (feat: +2 attack, -4 AC)

[Paul H]

Hi

Don't have the vast array of books that some posters have, but here's my idea of a 'Battle Bard'

Levels 1-6 Bard Incude Melodic Casting (CM) feat.
7) Lyric Theurmatage (CM) [Full Casting], Extra 1st & 2nd Lvl spell slots
8) LT. Captivating Melody Feat
9) LT. One 1st & One 2nd extra spell known from Sorc/Wiz list. Lyric Spell (CAd) Convert Bardic Music into extra spell slots.
10) LT. Extra 3rd & 4th lvl spell slots.
11) Sublime Chord [Full Bardic Music/Lore, but new spell progression 4th to 9th lvl. Also take spells from Sorc/Wiz & Bard lists] Gain 4th & 5th lvl spells
12) SC. Song Arcane Pwr. [Perform check to increase CL]

This way you'll gain 9th lvl spells at 19th level.
Yor spells/day at 20th lvl:
3/4/4/3/6/4/4/3/3/2

Yes, it's skill point specific, but I think the rewards totally outweigh the costs.

"..What you mean the 11th level Bard just cast Cloudkill....."? :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun
Paul H

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hi

Don't have the vast array of books that some posters have, but here's my idea of a 'Battle Bard'

Levels 1-6 Bard Incude Melodic Casting (CM) feat.
7) Lyric Theurmatage (CM) [Full Casting], Extra 1st & 2nd Lvl spell slots
8) LT. Captivating Melody Feat
9) LT. One 1st & One 2nd extra spell known from Sorc/Wiz list. Lyric Spell (CAd) Convert Bardic Music into extra spell slots.
10) LT. Extra 3rd & 4th lvl spell slots.
11) Sublime Chord [Full Bardic Music/Lore, but new spell progression 4th to 9th lvl. Also take spells from Sorc/Wiz & Bard lists] Gain 4th & 5th lvl spells
12) SC. Song Arcane Pwr. [Perform check to increase CL]

This way you'll gain 9th lvl spells at 19th level.
Yor spells/day at 20th lvl:
3/4/4/3/6/4/4/3/3/2

Yes, it's skill point specific, but I think the rewards totally outweigh the costs.

"..What you mean the 11th level Bard just cast Cloudkill....."? :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun
Paul H

Nah, that's a Caster Bard, not a Gish Bard.

My suggestion: Changling Bard/Warshaper. With Changling, you can just look like anything not you, since it's a polymorph effect, and get all benefits of Warshaper. This includes extra reach, immunity to crits/sneak attacks, and other fun toys.

Disguise Spell lets you cast spells during a performance and disallow a Spellcraft check, making them immune to counterspelling, which can be handy.

[Hal]

Ideally I was going to work out a bard into a gish... shut down what you cannot fight and fight what you cannot shut down...

Similar to the dusk-blade but more save or suck rather than save or take damage

Ideally the books allowed would be...
The complete series
Players handbook 1 & 2
monster manual (can you ability focus bardic music?)
Libris Mortis (don't bother)
book of nine swords (tome of battle)
hero's of battle & horror

also how do people feel about reckless offense (feat: +2 attack, -4 AC)

Okay, with access to those books, your best bet is a Bard/Warblade or Bard/Crusader multiclass. Next best would be Bard/Paladin. If you want to be like a Duskblade, you would probably want Arcane Strike, which is in one of the completes (Arcane? Adventurer? Mage? I don't remember).

[Paul H]

Hi

OK - The Bard/Lyric Theurmatage only gets Cleric BAB, and drops to Wiz BAB with Sublime Chord, but spell choice makes all the difference.

Whirling Blade to attack all within 60' line, using your Cha instead of Str.
Heart of Earth from CM to increase HP by 2/lvl for 1 hr/lvl. Also grants free Stoneskin but reduces spell to 1 rnd/lvl. (Better than False Life)?
Bite of ..... for extra Str, Nat Armour etc.

An Elf Bard6/LT 3 with Cha 18 & +1 Longsword casts Whirling Blade (sacrificing 3rd lvl spell for Arcane Strike [CW]) would be:
Attack +14. Dam D8+5 (Crit 19-20x2) +3D4 (Arc Strk).

All that in 60' line, and excludes Bard Music bonuses.

Cheers
Paul H

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, with access to those books, your best bet is a Bard/Warblade or Bard/Crusader multiclass. Next best would be Bard/Paladin. If you want to be like a Duskblade, you would probably want Arcane Strike, which is in one of the completes (Arcane? Adventurer? Mage? I don't remember).

I second Bard/Warblade. Awsome Int synergy, Song of the White Raven FTW. Since you're wanting to be a bard that debuffs and also is good in a fight, I suggest Bard16/Warblade4. You can get access to a couple of fun stances that way, and it won't detract too much from your bard-ness. Plus White Raven is all about group tactics anyways.

Arcane Strike isn't so good for a Bard unless you're wanting a lot of single target shut-downs. My suggestion is things like Slow, Glitterdust, Silence (area effect or targeted to shut down casters), and things of this nature. Heidous laughter also is a good shut-down. Bards don't have a lot of fort save or screwed spells, although Sound Burst is fort save or stunned for a round.

[ericgrau]

Except a barbarian with rage or a fighter with fighter tree feats or a palladin with pally abilities is even stronger. Really you'll be struggling to equal the warrior NPC class. And even then it consumes a precious standard action, which will make you *worse* than before whenever you have to do it during combat (vs. before). Buffs are a trap!

Charisma skills (or any narrow range of skills) in d&d are likewise a weak focus. Like any non-caster class, charisma. Should. Rarely. Be. A. Bard's. First. Stat. You're just asking for suckage to make any high cha. character unless it directly powers full spellcasting. And a rogue could do this better than a bard anyway. The bard could be the party face, but so could a paladin or sorceror or cleric (or aforementioned cha rogue); it's not an uber class feature to focus on.

I had some doubts about the bard before and got some good answers from others:
Stat Buffs: Should be cast *before* combat only or maybe at the beginning of very long combats. They aren't worth a round. This is another common source of bard suckage. This includes bardic music. Note: Non-stat "buffs" like haste and greater invisibility are awesome and can be cast in or out of combat. And I'm glad I got to edit this point before anyone got confused or complained about how great haste/etc. is.
Spells: Bards get all the good low level spells. The ones that wizards still cast even though they have higher spells. Cast them. But do be careful with buffs, heals and utility spells. Buffs I mentioned; heals and utility spells should be on wands and scrolls, not occupying space on your spell list. Even those that trigger saves trigger multiple saves or only sometimes trigger saves, so having a high DC is less critical.
Trip: Isn't really BAB dependant. A whip helps here. Disarm is BAB dependant, but it's easy to get massive plusses so it doesn't really matter. A whip also helps here. Bards get whips. A whip also has a 15 foot range, so even without the feats (or with them) you can give it a shot without much risk.
Skillmonkeying: You can match a rogue on almost everything except trapfinding. Take a 1 level dip in rogue and you can do that too. Also note that you're one of the few classes to get tumble, which helps mobility and being a flanking buddy.
Between battle healing: You can match a cleric with wands, etc. (see "spells" above)

And thats how you can do many things as well as other classes, and you can do more of them than any one class can. You can't use the signature ability of any class, but the things you do use are just as good. You're pretty darn handy and versatile. This is what "jack of all trades and master of none" really means. You're not weaker, you just can't do every part of each trade. Bards aren't diplomats, they're dramatic hero do-alls.

Bards shouldn't really try to do damage any more than a wizard should use his crossbow; though it might happen and he's a little better at it. It's a trap. But, as always, you can do almost anything with prestige classes and change practically everything i just said.

[quiet1mi]

soo... basically stick to being a spell-caster rather than a gish?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

soo... basically stick to being a spell-caster rather than a gish?

You can be a quite deadly Gish Bard with the right slant and options taken.

However, most of their shut-downs are Will based, so you have to watch which ones you grab.

But certainly, start up a bard song (pick up Melodic Casting so you can still cast while singing), drop a silence on the dude in the back row with the holy symbol, and charge into the fray as a Bard/Warblade with Song of the White Raven.

[Dixieboy]

st00pid question here, what about the Song seeker PrC? From what i can gather it is pretty useful, increases the overall effectiveness of everyone around you and you get to blast 10d6 (I think it was) for one bardic music

Aswell as completely stopping people from casting, or speaking

[Eldan]

If homebrew is allowed, I recommend the Disciple of Metal (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=852283) PrC. Makes bards quite useful in melee combat and gives some nice boosts to the inspire songs, like haste for all party members, or +4 Strenght.

[quiet1mi]

now how balanced is the Disciple of Metal mechanically... I already know of it as pure awesome...

[Bonecrusher Doc]

I'd also suggest a single level dip in battledancer for the CHA to AC.

Where can I find a description of this class? Is it in any books, or is it just online?

[BobVosh]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-45711.html

There was also the Battledancer base class from Dragon Compendium. It was originally in Dragon #159, but the Compendium ported it to 3.5 rules.

It's a full BAB class that can add CHA to defense. It gains a monk's unarmed damage and has a variety of class abilities and attacks that are based on Tumble checks.

Google is your goggles to search the interbutt

[imperialspectre]

Where can I find a description of this class? Is it in any books, or is it just online?

It's from Dragon Magazine. You can get it either from the Dragon Compendium or by typing "battledancer" into Google.

[Paul H]

You can be a quite deadly Gish Bard with the right slant and options taken.

However, most of their shut-downs are Will based, so you have to watch which ones you grab.

But certainly, start up a bard song (pick up Melodic Casting so you can still cast while singing), drop a silence on the dude in the back row with the holy symbol, and charge into the fray as a Bard/Warblade with Song of the White Raven.


Hi

Basically the save or suck mechanic described is a Beguiler.

Lots of Enchants spells such as Whelm can be mixed in with Unsettling Enchantment (-2 to AC/Attacks for one round). Also has good buffs like Blur, Mage Armour, Mirror Image, Invis, Gtr Invis, Haste etc etc......

You also have loads skill points - more because Beguiler's an Int based caster.

Why a Bard Gish? My Changeling Beguiler 6/Warlock1* (going Eldritch Theurge from CM) can buff/debuff/do non-lethal damage/blast with 3D6 Eldritch. Special goggles from MIC allow me to convert 3rd lvl spells into Fireballs.

Cheers
Paul H
* My GM allows Beguiler to be base class for Changelings.

[ericgrau]

soo... basically stick to being a spell-caster rather than a gish?

They're more skillmonkey/caster than fighter/caster. Going pure spellcaster with an extreme focus on cha will screw you too, since they aren't full casters. But you can trip/disarm too w/ a whip. So in some sense you can still handle the control aspects of a fighter, so really the bard is fighter/skillmonkey/caster, with all the power the pure versions have but only in certain areas. And worst case scenario at least you aren't as bad with a crossbow as a wizard. That d6 HD and low AC will screw you in melee though, and that's even after you bring your AB to a little below par.

I'd get "enough" cha with some dex for AC and skillmonkeying, con for HP like any char and pump strength plus blow a feat or two if you want to get some whip action going. You could also do a more pure skillmonkeying by pumping int instead, maybe combining that with knowledge. Then you probably couldn't pump strength. Or focus dex for scouting. And/or dip 1 level into rogue for trapfinding. Or (back to the strength route) dip into fighter for more trip build feats. There's a lot of options, really.

EDIT: And with wands & scrolls you handle the cleric's between battle healing & restoration too. Really the bard takes a little from every column, but never everything. Trying to do everything or the part you don't have from any column will make you mediocre; spellcasting included, fighting included. Skillmonkeying not so much... heck, you can fix that almost completely with a 1 level dip if you really wanted to. You'd just have a little less skill points that's all.

[Paul H]

While reading the joker and being reminded of cleric-zilla, I was wondering if there was a build floating around for a battle bard...I am wondering because when I play as a Bard I don't want this character to be reduced to "just the face" of the group.

the attributes are generated off of point buy (32 points) and the character starts at level 8... and 27,000 gp.

I was never any good when it came to optimizing point buy...:smallsigh:

I noticed that with a bard's Inspire courage, his attack bonus is equal to a Fighter's attack bonus (base).. this has inspired me to create a bard that can hold his own in combat...

Things I know that are necessary...

Save or Suck spells that target multiple saves (will,fort,and reflex).
Haste is a must as it allows you to attack multiple times...


Things I am unsure of...

Is charm monster and person necessary as you can use suggestion with you bardic music
The existence of quality bardic combat feats and prestige classes


Hi

There's far more SoS spells on the Beguilers spell list than the Bard's, as well as Haste.

Beguilers are masters of Emchantments as the name suggests, but their BAB is simply BAD. Depends on what you want to do - I've already explained the advantages of Bard/Sublime Chord as a spellcaster.

I trust more in concepts than classes. What exactly does the OP want to achieve? Combat or Spellcasting?

Thanks
Paul H

[Friv]

There's a trick known as the Bardbarian, which is pretty much what it sounds like.

IIRC, and I make no guarantees, using it from a bard's point of view involves dipping into Barbarian for rage ability and increased movement, then combining your Rage with your Inspire Courage to tear across the battlefield.

If you go Bard 4 / Barbarian 4, your Inspire Courage balances out your lost point of BAB while boosting your damage, your saves are all base +5, and you've got two Rages a day. You've also got Level 1 and 2 spells, which you can use for healing and buffing before you go nuclear on your opposition.

Dragon Magazine suggests Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack as your feat chain (they also suggest Combat Casting, though, and we all know how awesome that's not.)