[3.5e] Sovereign Speaker

[Fax Celestis]

...from Faiths of Eberron, there's a PrC called the Sovereign Speaker. It gets a new domain (from a short list: Air, Animal, Artifice, Celerity, Chaos, Charm, Commerce, Community, Competition, Creation, Earth, Family, Feast, Fire, Force, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Liberation, Life, Luck, Magic, Metal, Mind, Oracle, Pact, Plant, Pride, Protection, Retribution, Spell, Strength, Sun, Trade, Travel, War, Warforged, Wealth, Weather) at each level, and some bonus domain slots scattered throughout.

This, in itself, doesn't alarm me. But coupling this PrC with the Spontaneous Domains variant from the PHB-II strikes me as...terrifying. Anyone else considered this?

[RTGoodman]

This, in itself, doesn't alarm me. But coupling this PrC with the Spontaneous Domains variant from the PHB-II strikes me as...terrifying. Anyone else considered this?

I do believe someone mentioned it on here before, but I'll have to look it up. [EDIT: Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74759), though it's not that much info.]

As far as I can tell, though, yeah it is pretty terrifying, especially if you can get as many domains as possible - maybe go Cloistered Cleric (3), Sovereign Speaker (9), and Contemplative for another one or two, for a total or 13 or 14 domains, all of which you can use for spontaneously casting. (Including Magic which, I believe, has anyspell and greater anyspell as a domain spells).

EDIT: Of course, the problem is that you can't have more than two domains from any one god, so that could be pretty limiting. (That's assuming whoever mentioned it in the other thread is right - I don't have any Eberron books.)

[Fax Celestis]

Of course, the problem is that you can't have more than two domains from any one god, so that could be pretty limiting. (That's assuming whoever mentioned it in the other thread is right - I don't have any Eberron books.)

That is indeed the case. However, a lot of the domains have crossover--especially the alignment ones--between a couple of the deities. Still, it just seems like...well, it seems like a cleric-sorceror hybrid, except it has domain powers and turn undead instead of a familiar. Which, for the cost of 2 CL, isn't too overpowering.

[Starsinger]

This sounds loverly.

[The_Snark]

Looking at the PHBII, the variant allows you to select one of your domains to cast spontaneously, not all of them...

You might be thinking of the spontaneous divine caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant, which is indeed considerably improved by the Sovereign Speaker; however, the variant is weaker than the standard cleric already, so I don't think it would be too unbalancing in any case.

[Fax Celestis]

Looking at the PHBII, the variant allows you to select one of your domains to cast spontaneously, not all of them...

You might be thinking of the spontaneous divine caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant, which is indeed considerably improved by the Sovereign Speaker; however, the variant is weaker than the standard cleric already, so I don't think it would be too unbalancing in any case.

Why so it does. That's much better, then. I suppose I'll be spending feats on Domain Spontaneity (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Domain_Spontaneity,all) too.

[Person_Man]

Actually, it makes the Healer (who has the best progression but worst spell list in the game) quite playable.

[UserClone]

Er, how does the Healer qualify without any domains to begin with?

[RTGoodman]

Er, how does the Healer qualify without any domains to begin with?

Well, you could grab a level of Divine Oracle (CDiv), which gives you the Oracle domain at 1st level at the cost of 8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), Skill Focus in the same, and the ability to cast 2 divination spells (which I think Healer should meet by 5th level).

Is that enough to meet the qualifications? (I don't have FoE.) If not, there's also Contemplative (CDiv), which gives a bonus domain at 1st level, but it requires 13 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), so you can't get in until 11th level.

[Eikre]

"Playable?" You know, the Monk is playable, too, if you multiclass and take nineteen levels of Cleric. Somehow, though, everyone keeps telling me that it's a bad idea because I'd be missing out on a caster level...

Same thing here. You just have a more heavily restricted choices in spells (remember, you can only prepare one instance of any one domain spell a day), and you still can't wear armor, for one extra spell of your highest level a day until level 19. It's a pithy trade and I think the Cleric is still the winner.

[JaxGaret]

"Playable?" You know, the Monk is playable, too, if you multiclass and take nineteen levels of Cleric. Somehow, though, everyone keeps telling me that it's a bad idea because I'd be missing out on a caster level...

Same thing here. You just have a more heavily restricted choices in spells (remember, you can only prepare one instance of any one domain spell a day), and you still can't wear armor, for one extra spell of your highest level a day until level 19. It's a pithy trade and I think the Cleric is still the winner.

Comparing almost any build to Clericzilla will result in that build being the loser.

A Healer/Sovereign Speaker is middle of the pack. Probably at least comparable to a Shugenja, if not outright more powerful. I'd call that plenty "playable".

[Person_Man]

Sovereign Speaker requires:

Knowledge Religion 8 ranks
Worldly Focus feat
Ability to cast divine spells
Must worship Sovereign Host without favoring one god over the other
Access to one cleric domain

You can get access to a domain via Church Inquisitor, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, and various PrC found in Dragon Magazine.

It's also worth mentioning that the much maligned Healer is playable by itself, as long as you're playing at or above level 8, when you get your Unicorn Companion (Circle of Protection against Evil, Immunity to Poison/Charm/Compulsion, Improved Evasion, Shared Saves, Shared Spells, improves with levels and can be replaced by much better Magical Beasts at higher level). You basically just ride your companion and heal every round. Although you won't have any uber combo, the only way you'll die is if an enemy can kill you in one round.

[Eikre]

Comparing almost any build to Clericzilla will result in that build being the loser.

A Healer/Sovereign Speaker is middle of the pack. Probably at least comparable to a Shugenja, if not outright more powerful. I'd call that plenty "playable".

Alright, if it was Totemist vs. Cleric, I'd say, sure, go for it: He's playable, and he has an interesting power-allocating method that the Cleric does not.

If you said Psion vs. Cleric, I'd say, sure, go for it: He's playable, and has action-management challenges that the cleric never poses.

If had mentioned Cavalier vs. Cleric, I'd say, sure, go for it: He's playable, and has feat synergy that the cleric would never be able to afford.

The Healer has none of these compelling reasons to ever be used as the basis for a character. It's not even a matter of matching the Cleric vs. the Fighter, whereby they both achieve the same goals using different mechanics -- the Cleric is everything that the Healer is, and if you want to see one that has arbitrary limitations, then let me tell you: The capacity for players to cripple themselves is already limitless.

My point is that Sovereign Speaker doesn't make the Healer a playable class. The Sovereign Speaker makes the Sovereign Speaker a playable class, and, hey- you dipped into healer, why the hell did you do that?

[Person_Man]

The Healer has none of these compelling reasons to ever be used as the basis for a character. It's not even a matter of matching the Cleric vs. the Fighter, whereby they both achieve the same goals using different mechanics -- the Cleric is everything that the Healer is, and if you want to see one that has arbitrary limitations, then let me tell you: The capacity for players to cripple themselves is already limitless.

My point is that Sovereign Speaker doesn't make the Healer a playable class. The Sovereign Speaker makes the Sovereign Speaker a playable class, and, hey- you dipped into healer, why the hell did you do that?

As I said before, the Healer gets the best spell progression in the game. You get 4 0th level spells and 3 first level spells at first level, plus your bonus spells from high Wisdom. At third level you have 5 0th level, 4 1st level, and 3 2nd level spells, plus bonus spells from high Wisdom. So at every level you get 1-3 more spells compared to a similar caster. In addition, Healers need only meditate for 1 hour to regain their spells (instead of the usual 8 hours of rest). You can use feats and a wide variety of PrC to add spells to your spell list, and there are a few reserve feats that you can use to great effect. And if you're willing to stick it out until 8th level, you get a great companion.

So yes, the Healer sucks big time below ECL 6ish. But once you get into a PrC like Sovereign Speaker, its quite a good choice. Although you suffer in the short term from your lousy spell list, in the long run you get the most spells per day and you can replenish them relatively quickly.

[NEO|Phyte]

In addition, Healers need only meditate for 1 hour to regain their spells (instead of the usual 8 hours of rest).

Does the 8-hour rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineRecentCastingLimit) still apply?

[Eikre]

Yeah, Healers have a few extra spells. I'd maintain that the Cleric's capacity to spontaneously heal, though, makes up for that by turning the healing spells that the Healer would normally be preparing a bunch of into useful combat spells and flexibly switching those out during the day, which the Healer can only do WIS number of times per day if she takes a special feat. The Cleric also has Turn/Rebuke undead, which he can use to gain Domain Spontaneity.

And, yeah, Healers can gain new spells without eight hours of rest, but you know what?


Each healer must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a healer can prepare spells. A healer may prepare and cast any spell on the healer spell list (see below), provided she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.


Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

On the Unicorn thing, you've got me. On that point I concede. Everyone who wants to be riding a virginity-stealing metaphor with a phallic symbol on its forehead should definitely take eight levels of Healer... Or leadership, but then it won't be quite as badass, or compatible with being male. At least you can have it two levels earlier.

Anyway, I did realize something last night which strengthens your position... Namely, that Clerics have special domain slots that they're intended to prepare domain spells in. Intended to be the only place a cleric can prepare domain spells in.

The Healer, on the other hand, has to prepare the domain spells in her generic slots, which permits her to walk around all day with every slot filled with a different spell from her assorted domains. No spell could be prepared more than once, though.

So, that's weird. I still think that anyone wanting to play a character like this would find that a cleric is mechanically the same, except with more stuff, but the Healer does certainly get things out of the sovereign speaker that the cleric cannot, unless he's a Spontainous Cleric (who has less spellslots and is only permitted full access to his spare domains through shaky interpretation) or takes Domain Spontaneity (which means he's down a few feats from the Healer... Although I can't imagine what the hell the Healer is going to spend her feats on. Spontaneous Healer, maybe?)