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Eloel
2008-12-22, 02:50 PM
I've been thinking, (one of LotR films made me think on this, I admit)
Why are Elves always seen as the "good guys" ? There are dark elves, night elves, and some other subraces, that actually ARE evil. Thinking further in, to find a real "good" (non-celestial, mind it, Aasimars and stuff like that don't count) race.
Humans? Nope, we have quite enough examples
Elves? There are enough examples to stop "they are all good" stereotype.
Dwarves? Uhh, this is where I got stuck. It seems I can't find an example of evil dwarves. Anyone can find any for me, if there is any?
If we can't find any, does that mean Dwarves are gooder (yes, not better, gooder) than Elves?

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-22, 02:53 PM
Duergar and Derro are both evil subterranean subraces of dwarf. Derro are bat**** insane, but duergar are just generally less friendly than your normal dwarf.

Krrth
2008-12-22, 02:54 PM
I've been thinking, (one of LotR films made me think on this, I admit)
Why are Elves always seen as the "good guys" ? There are dark elves, night elves, and some other subraces, that actually ARE evil. Thinking further in, to find a real "good" (non-celestial, mind it, Aasimars and stuff like that don't count) race.
Humans? Nope, we have quite enough examples
Elves? There are enough examples to stop "they are all good" stereotype.
Dwarves? Uhh, this is where I got stuck. It seems I can't find an example of evil dwarves. Anyone can find any for me, if there is any?
If we can't find any, does that mean Dwarves are gooder (yes, not better, gooder) than Elves?

Take at the Norse version of Dwarves. Not exactly the poster child for good. Also, duergar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)#Other_Subraces).


edit: gets trampled by Ninjas.


Da'Shain: Take a look at Dark Sun. They may not be Evil, but they sure make a case for it...

Da'Shain
2008-12-22, 02:54 PM
Aren't duergar evil dwarves? Or are they just "dark" underground dwarves? I forget.

Anyway, evil halflings seem to be right out. I certainly can't think of any settings with an evil halfling race.

Eloel
2008-12-22, 02:55 PM
Aren't duergar evil dwarves? Or are they just "dark" underground dwarves? I forget.

Anyway, evil halflings seem to be right out. I certainly can't think of any settings with an evil halfling race.
I can give an example to evil halflings. Err, Belkar?

The thing I'm saying is, is there an evil Dwarf someone has seen in any book/film/series/comics/whatever? A subrace exists, as I've just noticed, but I've not seen it used, ever, yet.

esorscher
2008-12-22, 02:56 PM
Duergar, as stated.

Gnomes and Halflings seem pretty good to me. Maybe a little mischievous. But you can't really define any race as "good" or "bad," there are exceptions to everything. It's all about freewill.

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-22, 02:58 PM
I can give an example to evil halflings. Err, Belkar?

The thing I'm saying is, is there an evil Dwarf someone has seen in any book/film/series/comics/whatever? A subrace exists, as I've just noticed, but I've not seen it used, ever, yet.

...all the duergar in H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth ?

EDIT: Dungeon Crawl Classics #44: Dreaming Caverns of the Duergar?

EDIT EDIT: The slaver thug Zark ("The Dwarf"), from the new Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide?

EDIT EDIT EDIT: "Black Dragon" Maglurien (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080611a), leader of the villainous Ebon Riders and up-and-coming acolyte of Orcus?

EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT: And that's just off the top of my head and the first three search results for "Duergar". I'm pretty sure there are more.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-22, 03:23 PM
Da'Shain: Take a look at Dark Sun. They may not be Evil, but they sure make a case for it...

They eat intelligent creatures, like humans and other halfling-descended races. Definitely cannibals, and definitely evil.

So, yeah. Athas has evil halflings. Evil jungle pygmy cannibal halflings.

Krrth
2008-12-22, 03:26 PM
They eat intelligent creatures, like humans and other halfling-descended races. Definitely cannibals, and definitely evil.

So, yeah. Athas has evil halflings. Evil jungle pygmy cannibal halflings.
Well, most of them do. As I understand it, some of the Halflings there are actually civilized.

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-22, 03:38 PM
Well, sure, and some demons are quite civilized. Paladins (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a), even. Doesn't mean demons aren't evil.

EDIT: And while we're talking about evil halflings, have none of you read the Book of Vile Darkness?
JERREN
... actually, wow, that's a lot of text, I probably shouldn't post it here. Let's just say that the Jerren are vicious halfling bastards, and uniformly evil as a race.

Da'Shain
2008-12-22, 03:41 PM
I withdraw my suggestion of halflings, then. (On the Belkar example, though, I thought we were talking about races that were consistently evil in other races' eyes; half the point of Belkar is to point out that even halflings have their psychopaths.)

Gnomes? Or are the deep gnomes evil?

But yeah, I guess dwarves are usually portrayed as good guys. Sure, there's almost always some evil dwarves kicking around, but are there any settings in which most of them are evil? *Waits to be informed of his ignorance again*

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-22, 03:44 PM
Well, most of them do. As I understand it, some of the Halflings there are actually civilized.

Not in the present day of Athas, that I know. There's two types, pretty much: the jungle-dwelling cannibal pygmy halflings, and the desert-dwelling cannibal pygmy halflings who were displaced from the jungle.

There might be civilized remnants (my geography beyond the Tyr region is really poor), just like there exist soft and civilized remnants of the other races. The halfling mind-lords and body-benders used to rule Athas, and created almost all other intelligent life, but that was millenia ago (when the sun was still blue and green).

Marshall
2008-12-22, 03:45 PM
Going solely on literature sources...

Evil Humans: I can get enough out of Tolkien to write a book, but let's just say Nazgul and the Dark Numenoreans.

Evil Elves: Eol, arguably, going to Tolkien. However, you also have the Melniboneans from the Elric stories and the Druchii (Warhammer Dark Elves).

Evil Dwarves: In Tolkien, the Petty Dwarves. See also: every Dwarf in Norse Mythos.

Evil Halflings: The sackville-Bagginses could be considered evil. Also, you may have heard of this one guy, Smeagol?

If you go to Tolkien for your source, every race has examples of evil. Going back farther than Tolkien, pretty much *every* fantastic race is evil in someone's version of things. Post-Tolkein, I'm sure you can find some hackjob author who's made just about every possible manipulation of race/morality.

Jayngfet
2008-12-22, 03:47 PM
If you don't look at the evil subrace there's still a mountain of evidence that the supposed good guys are worse than the villans.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-22, 03:47 PM
I wouldn't say the petty dwarves were particularly evil. I mean, Turin killed the dude's son before he was betrayed, and they generally treated the petty dwarves atrociously.

However, the regular dwarves got plenty evil when the Silmaril was placed in the Nauglamir. Murder, theft, and lying about it? Oh yeah.

Also, for more evil elves in Tolkien: almost all of Feanor's sons, Feanor himself, and the elves who followed him and participated in the kin-slaying at the havens in Aman...

All of that is single examples, though.

Krrth
2008-12-22, 03:49 PM
Not in the present day of Athas, that I know. There's two types, pretty much: the jungle-dwelling cannibal pygmy halflings, and the desert-dwelling cannibal pygmy halflings who were displaced from the jungle.

There might be civilized remnants (my geography beyond the Tyr region is really poor), just like there exist soft and civilized remnants of the other races. The halfling mind-lords and body-benders used to rule Athas, and created almost all other intelligent life, but that was millenia ago (when the sun was still blue and green).

Could very well be. Wiki mentions some of them living in the "Pristine Tower", but it also indicates that's it's a"handful".

imperialspectre
2008-12-22, 03:50 PM
Gnomes? Or are the deep gnomes evil?

They're listed as "usually neutral."

And halflings are plenty evil. Anybody else remember the kender? Those things are pure evil.

Neithan
2008-12-22, 04:14 PM
The elves of Faerūn are anything, but definately not good. They have a very messy and ugly history and I don't know about any surface elf who ever did something really good, and definately whole societies of elves doing something good.
They are usually a bunch of arrogant people who live in isolation of the world and don't give a damn about anyone.

Telonius
2008-12-22, 04:15 PM
The elves are "the good race" because they have the best propagandists. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2008-12-22, 04:20 PM
They are usually a bunch of arrogant people who live in isolation of the world and don't give a damn about anyone.

Doesn't that pretty much apply to every race in Faerun? Heck, it's pretty justified as there are maybe 20 persons in the world who truly matter and the rest are just mortal sheeps whose souls might make decent trade material, but are otherwise just waste of flesh. So everyone who considers himself relevant by and large considers everyone else irrelevant, 'cause...well, it's true.

valadil
2008-12-22, 04:29 PM
Dwarves? Uhh, this is where I got stuck. It seems I can't find an example of evil dwarves. Anyone can find any for me, if there is any?
If we can't find any, does that mean Dwarves are gooder (yes, not better, gooder) than Elves?

Dwarves are also usually greedy. I think this precludes them from being Good with a capital G.

I blame Tolkien for Good Elves. His elves are slightly divine. They're supposed to be that way.

Neithan
2008-12-22, 04:31 PM
But they are not without flaw either.

Maybe Galadriel is CG, but the rest is mostly lacking good qualities.

Narmoth
2008-12-22, 04:40 PM
I can give an example to evil halflings. Err, Belkar?

The thing I'm saying is, is there an evil Dwarf someone has seen in any book/film/series/comics/whatever? A subrace exists, as I've just noticed, but I've not seen it used, ever, yet.

Rheingold. The Wagner (?) opera based on german medieval legends mixed with german pre-christian myths.
Usually, in medieval knightly tales, a dwarf or gnome would be the evil antagonists minion, although he also could be a good knights special squire, usually with some mentor-relationship in addition to the squire/assistant thing.


But they are not without flaw either.

Maybe Galadriel is CG, but the rest is mostly lacking good qualities.

What about Fingolfin, high king of the Noldor challenging Morgoth to single hand combat to stall the advance of troops from Agnband and let the elves and men escape from the lost battle?

Or Beleg the longbow, who followed and protected Turin, despite disagreeing with him, and in the end got killed by Turin?

Or Finrod Felagund lord of Nargothrond, who after his people refused to help Beren to get the Silmarils went with him himself and died for Beren.

Or even Fingon, who heroically saved Maedhros from imprisonment by Morgoth on Thangorodrim?

Dixieboy
2008-12-22, 04:47 PM
Evil Dwarves: In Tolkien, the Petty Dwarves. See also: every Dwarf in Norse Mythos.
Name one evil Dwarf in norse mythos.

CarpeGuitarrem
2008-12-22, 05:10 PM
I blame Tolkien for Good Elves. His elves are slightly divine. They're supposed to be that way.
Not exactly. That's what we see of elves in LOTR, but if you look at his full mythos, including the Silmarillion, you find a much better picture of Elves. Ever heard of this dude named Feanor? Or Eol.

In fact, elves can be very emo when they get down to it. They're very weighed down by the weight of the sorrows of the world. And some of them can become very cold and desperate. In fact, in some ways, elves are the amplification of humans.

Siegel
2008-12-22, 05:14 PM
Name one evil Dwarf in norse mythos.

Alberich from the Nibelungen

Marshall
2008-12-22, 05:20 PM
Name one evil Dwarf in norse mythos.

Andvari, who cursed his gold to kill those who took it?

Dvalinn and Durinn, who in response to being kept from disappearing, offered to create a magic sword, and then made a sword that killed the wielder and spread evil?

The unnamed dwarf that permanently imprisons Sveigder?

Fjalar and Galar, who went about murdering people and bribing others with the gift of poetry?

Kish
2008-12-22, 05:26 PM
They're listed as "usually neutral."

And halflings are plenty evil. Anybody else remember the kender? Those things are pure evil.
On a serious note, while I find the entire concept of "X Morality Races" profoundly distasteful and the further away from it D&D gets the happier I am (making it clear that no racial alignment is meant to be absolute is one of the few things I like about 4ed), kender are actually the only D&D race I've ever read about that fits what the OP seems to be looking for. Some good, some extremely good, some neutral, none evil.

Starscream
2008-12-22, 05:42 PM
All these responses and not a single mention of Discworld elves? Elves don't come much eviler than that. "They'd shatter the world if they thought it'd make a pretty sound."

Most DW dwarves (though they are always called "dwarfs") are portrayed as good as well as lawful, but a few ultra-conservative ones have been the villains in a couple of recent Watch books. They'd probably be classified as lawful evil, or at least a very negative portrayal of lawful neutral.

Edit:
Some Discworld gnomes might qualify as well, although most of the ones we've met (particularly the Nac Mac Feegles) might be better described as "extremely chaotic neutral".

Kris Strife
2008-12-22, 05:48 PM
All these responses and not a single mention of Discworld elves? Elves don't come much eviler than that. "They'd shatter the world if they thought it'd make a pretty sound."

Edit:
Some Discworld gnomes might qualify as well, although most of the ones we've met (particularly the Nac Mac Feegles) might be better described as "extremely chaotic neutral".

Dont forget, trolls and dwarves hate eachother because dwarves try to mine sleeping trolls for their diamond teeth.

Tengu_temp
2008-12-22, 05:53 PM
All these responses and not a single mention of Discworld elves? Elves don't come much eviler than that. "They'd shatter the world if they thought it'd make a pretty sound."


Discworld elves are based on fae from mythology. Fae are divided into two courts - those of the Seelie court are mischevious and consider humans their playthings. And Seelie is the light court - fae of the dark court, Unseelie, are worse.


If you don't look at the evil subrace there's still a mountain of evidence that the supposed good guys are worse than the villans.

Examples, please.

Starscream
2008-12-22, 05:56 PM
Dont forget, trolls and dwarves hate eachother because dwarves try to mine sleeping trolls for their diamond teeth.

Trolls are temperamental and dimwitted, but most seem good natured enough.

In fact, other than the elves (something of a subverted trope, seeing as most fictional worlds portray them as good) there doesn't seem to be any races on the Disc that are particularly good or evil by default.

Even the undead mostly just try to keep their heads down and not cause trouble. Vampires can be trouble due to their dietary needs, but even they are perfectly capable of getting their food from the kosher butchers and forming support groups to help each other cope with their addictions. Some, such as Maladicta from Monstrous Regiment and Sally from Thud are even downright heroic at times.

Kris Strife
2008-12-22, 06:07 PM
Trolls are temperamental and dimwitted, but most seem good natured enough.

They're smarter and nicer when they're cold.


In fact, other than the elves (something of a subverted trope, seeing as most fictional worlds portray them as good) there doesn't seem to be any races on the Disc that are particularly good or evil by default.

Death and his grand daughter would disagree with that. The Auditors.

Starscream
2008-12-22, 06:29 PM
Death and his grand daughter would disagree with that. The Auditors.

Ah, but they are not people. They are the opposite of people. They are neither alive or dead, and have no personalities at all. They are just the personifications of a function (as is Death, but he has a personality).

If they ever took the effort to become people and acquire personalities (such as happened with Lady LeJean) they would become much more decent.

Kris Strife
2008-12-22, 06:39 PM
Ah, but they are not people. They are the opposite of people. They are neither alive or dead, and have no personalities at all. They are just the personifications of a function (as is Death, but he has a personality).

If they ever took the effort to become people and acquire personalities (such as happened with Lady LeJean) they would become much more decent.

She was unique. The rest of them became worse people than the worst people on the Disc.

Starscream
2008-12-22, 06:52 PM
She was unique. The rest of them became worse people than the worst people on the Disc.

Yes, but she started out the same way they did. Through time, interactions with other humans, and experimenting with things like eating food she acquired a sort of humanity.

The others took human form only after all the other people had been frozen in time. They did not try to experience life, only to quantify it. With time and exposure to actual life as a human (as happened to Myria) who knows what they might have developed into?

kopout
2008-12-22, 06:54 PM
Aren't duergar evil dwarves? Or are they just "dark" underground dwarves? I forget.

Anyway, evil halflings seem to be right out. I certainly can't think of any settings with an evil halfling race.

I can I reed a book where the halflings, although "good" where actually just as evil as orcs

Dixieboy
2008-12-22, 06:57 PM
Andvari, who cursed his gold to kill those who took it?
In a mythos were people place people in eternal punishment for insulting them that's hardly evil, take a look at how many people the aesir kill at an almost daily basis, the einhejers kills each other every morning. That's hardly evil.
Besides that's not how i remember it :/, i remember it as loki needing to pay a ransom because he killed someone, he then demands all Andvari's gold, which he is given, except for one ring, because it's cursed, Loki steals it anyway and hands it over as part of the ransom



Dvalinn and Durinn, who in response to being kept from disappearing, offered to create a magic sword, and then made a sword that killed the wielder and spread evil?
Dvalin is the dwarf who discovered runes right? He also made that piece of jewelry for freya,
Hmmm, i seem to recall Tyrfing being made because some guy cornered the dwarfs and forced them to make it, they took revenge, which by northern mythos standards, is in no way evil. Besides, i remember it as that each time it was drawn somebody had to die, and it would make three great acts of evil (Which by the time could also mean tragedies... which it did)


The unnamed dwarf that permanently imprisons Sveigder? all that is said is that no one ever saw him again


Fjalar and Galar, who went about murdering people and bribing others with the gift of poetry?They killed giants and made mead from the blood, sure they killed Kvasir, but Kvasir set loki for eternal punishment,
And they killed Gilling and his wife, who were Jotun
Which by your logic makes Thor like the evilest guy in the world :/
Though i agree, they were evil

SurlySeraph
2008-12-22, 07:28 PM
On a serious note, while I find the entire concept of "X Morality Races" profoundly distasteful and the further away from it D&D gets the happier I am (making it clear that no racial alignment is meant to be absolute is one of the few things I like about 4ed), kender are actually the only D&D race I've ever read about that fits what the OP seems to be looking for. Some good, some extremely good, some neutral, none evil.

Compulsive theft is a Good act? I mean, I can't say I've heard of any evil kender, but there HAVE to be some.

tribble
2008-12-22, 07:38 PM
Compulsive theft is a Good act? I mean, I can't say I've heard of any evil kender, but there HAVE to be some.

there was that one unnamed cleric of morgion from dragons of summer flame. as I recall, everybody else panicked at the idea of a kender with the ability to cause diseases and killed him or something.

Doomsy
2008-12-22, 07:40 PM
I've been thinking, (one of LotR films made me think on this, I admit)
Why are Elves always seen as the "good guys" ? There are dark elves, night elves, and some other subraces, that actually ARE evil. Thinking further in, to find a real "good" (non-celestial, mind it, Aasimars and stuff like that don't count) race.
Humans? Nope, we have quite enough examples
Elves? There are enough examples to stop "they are all good" stereotype.
Dwarves? Uhh, this is where I got stuck. It seems I can't find an example of evil dwarves. Anyone can find any for me, if there is any?
If we can't find any, does that mean Dwarves are gooder (yes, not better, gooder) than Elves?

Tolkien really wanted elves to be the perfect race. They are basically a race of Mary Sues of Tolkien.
Everybody takes after Tolkien. Call this lack of imagination, not wanting to alienate the fan base, or an acknowledgment of the people who really, really, really like elves, but it is just how things tend to go.
Hence: A strong counterswing towards wanting to punch them in their pointy-eared superior faces before setting their forests on fire.

Halna LeGavilk
2008-12-22, 07:40 PM
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned, but in the Giant's setting, the gnomes are described as being a malicious, if not downright evil, race.

Dixieboy
2008-12-22, 07:41 PM
Compulsive theft is a Good act? I mean, I can't say I've heard of any evil kender, but there HAVE to be some.remember, they don't think of it as stealing, they're just borrowing :smallbiggrin:

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-22, 09:55 PM
I don't think that there are any evil races of gnomes. I'm sure there are evil individual gnomes, but I don't know of any group of evil gnomes.


I mean, I can't say I've heard of any evil kender, but there HAVE to be some.
From what I know about kender personality, they seem to be as incapable of hatred as they are of fear. (Maybe Yoda was on to something...)

It's not like they need to kill anyone to take their stuff. They just skip the killing step entirely, which is way more efficient.

It's hard to imagine what could turn a kender evil. Maybe they could be driven to vengeance if someone did something bad enough to a friend... I'm still having a hard time imagining a scenario where one of them repeatedly commits evil deeds.

Blue Ghost
2008-12-23, 12:04 AM
The dwarves in the Chronicles of Narnia seemed generally evil. Well, more neutral, but in that setting, "not good" is pretty much equivalent to evil.

Neithan
2008-12-23, 01:06 AM
Tolkien really wanted elves to be the perfect race. They are basically a race of Mary Sues of Tolkien.
Everybody takes after Tolkien. Call this lack of imagination, not wanting to alienate the fan base, or an acknowledgment of the people who really, really, really like elves, but it is just how things tend to go.
Hence: A strong counterswing towards wanting to punch them in their pointy-eared superior faces before setting their forests on fire.

I strongly disagree here. Maybe he wanted them to be perfect, but by todays general oppinion, they clearly are not and have lots of faults.
And there are manny settings were elves are equally imperfect. In the Forgotten Realms they are genocidal maniacs, in Eberron you have these crazy horse warriors and the dead cultists, and in Dark Sun everything is different.
And the Elves in Warcraft also are really not anything like perfect. The generci elves may be, but I know of no really popular setting where this might be the case.

Ascension
2008-12-23, 01:33 AM
(making it clear that no racial alignment is meant to be absolute is one of the few things I like about 4ed)

For what it's worth, 3.5 also makes that clear, people just have a tendency to overlook it. And while I can't say either way about 2E Core without checking, something I could do but I'm not going to bother with, Planescape certainly does allow for all manner of alignments, and 2E also gave rise to Dark Sun, where, as it has been said, everything is different.


I don't think that there are any evil races of gnomes. I'm sure there are evil individual gnomes, but I don't know of any group of evil gnomes.

Can't say about canonical sources anywhere, but I have a tendency to characterize gnomes as evil in my campaign settings. CN at best.

chiasaur11
2008-12-23, 02:18 AM
The dwarves in the Chronicles of Narnia seemed generally evil. Well, more neutral, but in that setting, "not good" is pretty much equivalent to evil.

Depends on the dwarf.

I mean, sure, a lot of them were evil, but Trumpkin was a brick.

I mean, the majority of the named ones weren't good, but there were a fair deal of decent ones mentioned.

Kris Strife
2008-12-23, 02:25 AM
Can I confess to being dissapointed that this thread wasnt an arms race discussion on good aligned adventurers?

Sholos
2008-12-23, 02:49 AM
Compulsive theft is a Good act? I mean, I can't say I've heard of any evil kender, but there HAVE to be some.

Remember, they honestly don't mean to steal anything. They pick stuff up to look at it and get distracted by something else. Think of it as the ultimate case of ADHD.

SurlySeraph
2008-12-23, 03:00 AM
remember, they don't think of it as stealing, they're just borrowing :smallbiggrin:

It's all fun and games until they start borrowing souls.


Remember, they honestly don't mean to steal anything. They pick stuff up to look at it and get distracted by something else. Think of it as the ultimate case of ADHD.

That's just what they want you to think. :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2008-12-23, 07:05 AM
Diabloi from Mystara (and Dragon compendium) while having the Chaotic subtype rather than the Good subtype, are strongly biased toward good, despite being feared by (and afraid of) humans.

Athaniar
2008-12-23, 01:34 PM
...all the duergar in H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth ?

EDIT: Dungeon Crawl Classics #44: Dreaming Caverns of the Duergar?

EDIT EDIT: The slaver thug Zark ("The Dwarf"), from the new Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide?

EDIT EDIT EDIT: "Black Dragon" Maglurien (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080611a), leader of the villainous Ebon Riders and up-and-coming acolyte of Orcus?

EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT: And that's just off the top of my head and the first three search results for "Duergar". I'm pretty sure there are more.

Also, the Dark Iron dwarves from Warcraft, basically the setting's duergar. They traded their freedom for the worship of Ragnaros, evil Elemental Lord of Fire. Plus, they invade the Brewfest each year and try to steal the beer! Ultimate evil there.

Stormageddon
2008-12-23, 01:53 PM
There is evil Dwarves used in Dragon Lance. They sort of brush over Them in the original books but they are there. I think they have a character who is a dark dwarf in another book but I forget which book it is.

Kish
2008-12-23, 05:08 PM
Compulsive theft is a Good act? I mean, I can't say I've heard of any evil kender, but there HAVE to be some.
Insanity is unaligned by definition. I don't remember a cleric of Morgion in Dragons of Summer Flame, although I read it a long time ago. However, in Test of the Twins, Tasslehoff attempts to convince a blue dragon to back off from finishing off an injured gold (? I think? Metallic, anyway) dragon by claiming to be evil--it falls flat because the dragon knows there's no such thing as an evil kender. As they're presented in the books, they lack the capacity for malice.

Upon further reflection, Dragonlance also shows the only example of an "evil race" I haven't found completely trite, in a short story about the draconians, not by showing them as unable to change, but by showing one of them becoming good...and promptly dying horribly, as his body tears itself apart trying to reshape itself into the dragon he was meant to be.

hamishspence
2008-12-23, 05:13 PM
depends on the book. Heroes of Horrror says one can make a case that Insanity = Neutral, but, thats not the same as an absolute statement.

The more detailed Champions of Ruin covers "Mad, I tell You" as an evil trope- "driven to acts that would horrify a demon" In other words, if the madness involves committing exceptionally evil acts- evil. Cyric is both Mad and Chaotic Evil in Prince of Lies and The Trial of Cyric the Mad

Asheram
2008-12-23, 05:52 PM
Remember, they honestly don't mean to steal anything. They pick stuff up to look at it and get distracted by something else. Think of it as the ultimate case of ADHD.

"There have never been so much evil in the world as in the eyes of an innocent child that's in a playful mood"

Narmoth
2008-12-24, 08:52 AM
In fact, in some ways, elves are the amplification of humans.

Well, the point with all demihuman / humanoid races is to amplify some aspect of being human


And while I can't say either way about 2E Core without checking...

It's stated that the alignments are the general alignment of the race, not that all members of it is of that alignment, just like a kingdom or a city would have a prevailing alignment, which is the alignment that is most common in the city / kingdom

Deth Muncher
2008-12-24, 12:48 PM
Uhm...

Flumphs?

LibraryOgre
2008-12-28, 10:36 PM
Re: Dark Sun Halflings
In the Tyr Region, and the first boxed set, halflings were largely a race of cannibalistic xenophiles. In the second boxed set, and specifically the supplement "Halflings of the Jagged Cliffs", we learn of the civilized halflings of the Far West, who are not cannibals and instead create and enslave living creatures as tools.

For a good race, in general, I think you're looking at gnomes. There's no core setting I know anything about where gnomes have an evil subrace... silly or neutral subraces, yes, but not evil.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-28, 11:45 PM
I think that Kish was saying that insanity doesn't dictate or preclude any alignment. You can be crazy and Chaotic Evil, but you can also be crazy and Lawful Good. (See: Miko, at least before she fell.)


Can't say about canonical sources anywhere, but I have a tendency to characterize gnomes as evil in my campaign settings. CN at best.
Well, playing pranks is one of their iconic behaviors, and pranks can easily be mean. So if you played that up, you could make them quite cruel, sinister, and fey.

I'd rather play up other aspects of their racial personality, but that's me.

Gnomes are curious creatures. They tend to share familiarity with roughly the same body of otherwise obscure lore, to which they will sometimes make oblique passing reference. A gnome might make an offhand remark about the violence inherent in some social system, and then laugh as though this is a very funny joke.

Gnomes are infamously intellectual. They are also highly social, though they tend to be so only or primarily with other gnomes. It should come as no great surprise, then, that they have developed a variety of rather complicated games. The most complex of these are intricate affairs, combining complex strategic and tactical resource management unmatched in all other sorts of games, gripping storytelling rivaling that of an epic ballad, and more bookkeeping than major accountancy. These games are the highest possible form of entertainment, according to the gnomes.

Winter_Wolf
2008-12-29, 12:24 AM
Spoilers if you haven't read the books:


Dark Sun halflings generally have few if any redeeming qualities. If you follow the Prism Pentad novels at all, you also find out that the shadow people were halflings that got trapped in the plane of shadow (or something similar, been a while) and their shadow giant form is just that, enlarged shadows of their halfling selves. (You also find out that the original race of Athas was halflings and that all other life forms are aberrations caused by the Pristine Tower [though I could be wrong]).

While I don't know that the cannibal halflings are technically evil, since pretty much everyone on Athas had serious issues, but I sure wouldn't want to meet them. Athasian elves are pretty mean bastards too, even by the standards of Athas.

Underdark gnomes are kind of oddball, maybe the only race I can think of where the Underdark equivalent of a race isn't pure evil leaking from every pore.

LibraryOgre
2008-12-29, 01:53 AM
Dark Sun halflings generally have few if any redeeming qualities. If you follow the Prism Pentad novels at all, you also find out that the shadow people were halflings that got trapped in the plane of shadow (or something similar, been a while) and their shadow giant form is just that, enlarged shadows of their halfling selves. (You also find out that the original race of Athas was halflings and that all other life forms are aberrations caused by the Pristine Tower [though I could be wrong]).

Actually, Thri-kreen were also native to Athas. Everyone else, however, was a mutant halfling.

Zen Master
2008-12-29, 05:36 AM
Actually, Thri-kreen were also native to Athas. Everyone else, however, was a mutant halfling.

Really? Hm, it makes sense - a halfling wouldn't easily mutate into an insect. I guess I just never thought of it before. Heh.

Anyways - I'm not sure anyone has ever created a truly good race in fiction. The elves are a good example - they are supposedly good, but basically for the most part they cannot be bothered one way or another for anyone who isn't an elf. After a giant fuss they agree to send 300 archers to aid against something like a billion orcs from Orthanc.

In my opinion, a race that was truly good would be communist. Or, well, communal. Not that I'm communist - I'm just as neutral as all men, and happy to profit from the efforts of others. But a truly good race would likely share everything, work for the common good, and be happy with their lot, even in adversity. Spineless bastards, really - but good.

The one race I can think of that approaches this ideal is ... the formians. Tho of course the fluff states that they are neutral and work themselves to death for no good reason. Still - very communal :)