If you could re-write any book/movie/show ending?

[Jayngfet]

I was wondering, if you could re write any book or movie or show's ending, what would you pick and what would you do?


I'd pick war of the spider queen. Since jeggred's naked and poorly armed in his fight against a much more skilled and better armed warrior. Hallistra doesn't whine and forget everything she learned about Lolth in five seconds. Ryld actually does become a werewolf. One of the other two good drow are the chosen one, since you'd logically choose the one you know how to trust.

And quenthel stays dead this time. No, she dies and Lolth kills her, killing her forever.

[Tirian]

I just can't believe that I watch Casablanca every few years and every time it ends the same damned way!

And, in the spirit of the season, this (http://www.hulu.com/watch/4267/saturday-night-live-its-a-wonderful-life-lost-ending) is another definite contender.

[Dhavaer]

Can I pick a game? I'd like to not die at the end of Fallout 3.

[Da'Shain]

I'd rewrite IT so that the big special reforming of the kids' friendship bond does not include gangbanging the one female kid. When they're all 12/13.

[Tormsskull]

Do I only get to pick 1? First thing that jumps to mind is Forest Gump. Instead of having Jenny die, I'd have her go through some kind of traumatic experience that makes her learn her lesson, stop being such a hbag, gain self-esteem and self-worth, stop taking other people for granted, and she and Forest raise their son together.

[Athaniar]

Diamonds Are Forever (Film)

Kill Blofeld at the end, instead of what actually happened with him.

[matuty74]

Code Geass R2. R1 had a rather good ending, to the point where I became border-line obsessive with the series. R2 just fell apart and killed my interest. When I mean ending, I'm talking maybe rewriting the last ten or eleven episodes. Episodes 14+ are nothing but a rushed train wreck.

[Fin]

I would rewrite the ending to the game 'Fable: Call of the King' so it... Y'know... Ended. At all.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Diamonds Are Forever (Film)

Kill Blofeld at the end, instead of what actually happened with him.
Well, that's the fault of James Bond being a long-running franchise. And I liked You Only Live Twice, or parts of it, so I could put up with the bullcrap.

Martian Successor Nadesico needs something to replace its sequel movie. Badly.

[Satyr]

I would rewrite every heroic story so that the characters are actually heroic, and die in the end. I have not yet read a satisfying heroic tale where the designated hero survive his purpose in the narratrive. At first Frodo. He doesn't need tro survive to climb Mt. Doom. Or anyone of the other members of the fellowship, but the two sidekick hobbits who raise into the role of the chroniclers of all that happened. The rest dies the death of heroes and purify the epic into a truly heroic tale.
And no, I don't think that should spoiler anything about the Lord of the Rings anymore.

[Da'Shain]

Er ... people are only truly heroic if they die on their quest? What?

Am I to understand that competence isn't a heroic trait?

[Tengu_temp]

Tengen Toppa Gurren Laga *gets shot*

That was a humorous joke. I'd rewrite the ending to the Hussite trilogy by Andrzej Sapkowski. This guy in general sucks at endings.

Reynevan spends several years in prison right before the dramatic finale, where he doesn't even do anything? WTF?

[chiasaur11]

Er ... people are only truly heroic if they die on their quest? What?

Am I to understand that competence isn't a heroic trait?

I agree.

I mean, heck, even Beawolf, one of the poster boys for "Hero dies at the end" lived through his big jobs. He died in a last hurrah, not after his biggest, most important job.

[tribble]

dying is a requisite for being a Greek Hero, though. jsut saying.

[Innis Cabal]

The endings of most anime. So you know. They actually end. Some ones high on the list

Last Exile

Inu Yasha- Because someone had to do it

Full Metal Alch(The Anime)-Because a movie never solves the problem

Eva-GOOD JOB SHINJI is not an ending.

Chrono Crusad- I'd change the last two bloody disks so the story didn't go from good to garbage in under 20 minutes

[FoE]

Spider-Man 3. Because the trilogy needed to end on a good note, and I'm sure it would be an excellent movie if it hadn't been so overstuffed with characters and there were some adjustments to the plot.

[SurlySeraph]

I'd rewrite IT so that the big special reforming of the kids' friendship bond does not include gangbanging the one female kid. When they're all 12/13.

Yeah. That honestly creeped me out more than anything else in the entire book. And it didn't creep me out in a good way.


Eva-GOOD JOB SHINJI is not an ending.

HEROES FAIL AND EVERYONE TURNS INTO TANG is also not an ending.

[Gamiress]

HEROES FAIL AND EVERYONE TURNS INTO TANG is also not an ending.

That was kinda the point. End of Evangelion was really just Anno giving the finger to everyone bugging him about the ending.

[Artemician]

Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha StrikerS

#1: Scrap adult-Vivio.
#2: Have Lutecia die.
#3: But not before drawing the parallels/differences between her and Fate a bit more.
#4: Don't have Uno be defeated by Verossa.
#5: Related to 4, give Hayate something to do in the ending. In fact, let *her* defeat Uno.
#6: Explain why Zest had to die properly.
#7: Have Signum do something T.T
#8: Make the countdown at the end of the episode actually mean something. Like, have the cast race to get out of the Cradle before Chrono flips the trigger or something. Makes for some nice tension too.
#9: There's no need to defeat all the big bads in the second-last ep. Leave some alive to get incinerated by Orbital Bombardment! Keeps up the tension much better as well.
#10: Regius *really* needs more screentime, given his role in driving the plot. Properly explain his motivations, not just give a brief flashback.

[Rutskarn]

I'd rewrite The Odyssey so that Odysseus dies a horrible, slow, painful, deliciously karmic death.

[Dacia Brabant]

I'd rewrite IT so that the big special reforming of the kids' friendship bond does not include gangbanging the one female kid. When they're all 12/13.

This. I tried to rationalize that in my head for a few seconds, that it was intended to be an extreme subversion of Beating the Bad Guy Through the Power Of Love, but no, just no. Do not want.

As for Eva's ending,

I'd have The Children all dead by the end of the first episode, introduce Kaji immediately and turn it into a Superspy series with giant-mecha-and-monsters as window dressing. The best parts of the show all focused on the adults anyway, may as well just go with what works.

[Innis Cabal]

That was kinda the point. End of Evangelion was really just Anno giving the finger to everyone bugging him about the ending.

For starters. Thats just crappy writing. Ticking off your fans is not acceptable. Sorry.

As for that ending. As i've said several places. Eva just needs to be buired and everyone move on. The TANG ending just....its like taking a hammer and driving that point into your temple then pouring salt into it. Neither fun, productive, or all that efficent.

[SurlySeraph]

I'd rewrite The Odyssey so that Odysseus dies a horrible, slow, painful, deliciously karmic death.

Have you read Dante's Inferno? Because Dante agreed with you.

[UltraDude]

Inu Yasha- Because someone had to do it


Well, the manga did end. No clue why they just... stopped making such a popular anime. Really have no good explanation for that.

[KKL]

In the last book of Harry Potter, I would demand Rowling to write as if Harry really had died and Voldemort ruled all of the world as it's Dark King. And then the cycle would continue with heroes rising to fight the Dark King, but failing.

And if I can't do that, I demand a less egregiously crappy fanfiction end.

[Alex Knight]

The Postman

So, y'know, it actually ends in a battle to defeat the anarchists, instead of a fistfight.

[Satyr]

Am I to understand that competence isn't a heroic trait?
When a hero has fulfilled his or her purpose in a story -most often the defeat of the opposing force - there is just no need to keep him afterwards. The hero has proven his worth and competence through beating the opposing force, and therefore has fulfilled his fate. He isn't necessary anymore.
Besides, a true hero desveres to go out with a bang, die while still be glorious and heroic, instead of growing old and feeble, losing his teeth and need help to not defecate himself.


I'd rewrite The Odyssey so that Odysseus dies a horrible, slow, painful, deliciously karmic death.

He does. I have read classical comments to the odyssey where it was mentioned that the slaughtering of the suiters - who are guests in his own house - is a sign of insanity. Besides, Odysseus is a broken, old man when he arrives in Ithaca, haggard and old. He is one of the few greek heroes who does not die an Euthanatos.

[bosssmiley]

I just can't believe that I watch Casablanca every few years and every time it ends the same damned way!

And, in the spirit of the season, this (http://www.hulu.com/watch/4267/saturday-night-live-its-a-wonderful-life-lost-ending) is another definite contender.

Link related (http://www.howitshouldhaveended.com/). :smallamused:

For me it would have to be "Kingdom of Heaven". Orlando Bloom getting crushed by a catapult stone and King Baldwin emerging from the gates of Jerusalem in his crusadepunk mech-armour in the last reel would make that film for me. :smallcool:

Baldwin (amplified): "HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW???"

@v: re: Ivanhoe and those Star Wars films we don't talk about. You are filled with sagacity, taste and delicious win.

[Avilan the Grey]

When a hero has fulfilled his or her purpose in a story -most often the defeat of the opposing force - there is just no need to keep him afterwards. The hero has proven his worth and competence through beating the opposing force, and therefore has fulfilled his fate. He isn't necessary anymore.
Besides, a true hero desveres to go out with a bang, die while still be glorious and heroic, instead of growing old and feeble, losing his teeth and need help to not defecate himself.

I don't agree at all. Maybe that's why I have always preferred anti-heroes, dark heroes etc. Because they are not incompetent idiots that die all the time.
(Of course I wish Superman could have stayed dead, but that's a different story).

I would love to re-work Fallout 3's ending, as said before.

I would rewrite the Ivanhoe movie from 1982 so that he picks the right girl. Of course they would have to run away somewhere (she being Jewish and all) but at least she is not an Irrelevant Blonde.

When I was a kid I would have re-written King Kong so that he survived. Of course I would also have written in much more um... Ann Darrow native scenes. (So sue me).

I would have picked the already filmed but not used alternative ending for Swordfish.

And... I would like to re-write all of Episode I-III (EXCEPT the end result) of Star Wars.

[SmartAlec]

When a hero has fulfilled his or her purpose in a story -most often the defeat of the opposing force - there is just no need to keep him afterwards. The hero has proven his worth and competence through beating the opposing force, and therefore has fulfilled his fate. He isn't necessary anymore.

Well, some heroes' purpose isn't just to beat the big bad guy, but to help shepherd the Happy Ending afterward - Aragorn's needed to bring about the reunited Kingdom, and Sam (the real hero of the tale, natch) brings renewal back to the Shire.

[Maxymiuk]

I'd have to say, Mass Effect.


Mind you, I've come to expect "not really dead" endings. But because of how the game pulls it off, I actually believed Shepard died when Sovereign's debris hit the Council Chambers.

But no, they had to go and keep him/her alive. It felt... cheap and tacked on.

[Wraithy]

As for that ending. As i've said several places. Eva just needs to be buired and everyone move on. The TANG ending just....its like taking a hammer and driving that point into your temple then pouring salt into it. Neither fun, productive, or all that efficient.

I actually sort of liked the en-RAAARGH *collapses from multiple bullet wounds*

[Oslecamo]

When a hero has fulfilled his or her purpose in a story -most often the defeat of the opposing force - there is just no need to keep him afterwards. The hero has proven his worth and competence through beating the opposing force, and therefore has fulfilled his fate. He isn't necessary anymore.
Besides, a true hero desveres to go out with a bang, die while still be glorious and heroic, instead of growing old and feeble, losing his teeth and need help to not defecate himself.


Eerrr, isn't that somewhat depressing? Can't they just go find a nice girl, marry, have kids and enjoy the peace and prosperity they helped create?

By your reasoning, every sucessfull businessman/scientist/writer/war hero/pop idol7whatever should throw themselves in a volcano as soon as they start falling in popularity, because they probably will never be able to experience the top of their glory again.

Plus, someone has to teach the new hero generation right? What would be of new heros if there wasn't old feeble incontinent but very experienced ancient guys to ask advice from?

[pendell]

I'd rewrite both Wing Commander : Prophecy and Jerry Pournelle's War World anthology so both stories would, you know, actually have an ending.

Both stories were intended to be multi-part trilogies that got cut in the middle because they weren't selling. Pournelle's story ended in a particularly bad place,


space nazis nuking the heroic resistance and set up for another few hundred years of turning the planet Haven into another twisted copy of their homeworld.


That was a TERRIBLE place to run out of money. I wish he hadn't left us hanging like that.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tengu_temp]

On Eva:

You do realize that people can rise from Tang if they have the will to live, and Shinji and Asuka just were the first to do so? Possibly including Kaji, seeing that he was in the Instrumentality in episodes 25-26, and surely including people who died shortly before it like Misato?

By the standards of Grimdark Super Robot Deconstructions that Eva started, this is a happy ending.

Let's see how will the new Eva movies end. Something tells me they're how Anno wanted everything to look from the beginning.

[Aotrs Commander]

I agree with the much aforementioned EVA. So, y'know, it wasn't the worst ending of any thing I've more or less ever been unfortunate enough to witness.

I'd re-write Return of the Jedi such that (Zaarin not having betrayed the Emporer) Thrawn was at Endor with TIE Defenders and Missile Boats. And the rebel scum were all annhilated in much, much longer starship battles. And after Palpatine and Vader die, Thrawn blows Luke up when he exits the Death Star (making the dangerous assumption, of course, that the rebels could win on the ground with Thrawn mainly concentrating on the rebel fleet). And then Thrawn becomes Emporer. Much Awesomeness follows.

Not that I'm an Imperial loyalist or anything...

End of NWN 2. Yes, I know they sort of epilogued with the expansions, but Rock Falls, Everybody Diesis not an ending.

Also and especially KotR 2, so the last end of the game is not a moribund dungeon crawl without much in the way of closure at the end.

C&C 3/Wrath of Kane's Nod endings. So, y'know, there was one, not just a wait-till-the-next-expansion/next-game...

Spellforce 1. 'Cos the ending to the original campaign was so short and insipid. My response was "that's it?!"

Emipire Earth III. Actually, I'd also change the middle. And the start. And the plot. And the mechanics. And pretty much everything else. So it didn't completely suck.




When a hero has fulfilled his or her purpose in a story -most often the defeat of the opposing force - there is just no need to keep him afterwards. The hero has proven his worth and competence through beating the opposing force, and therefore has fulfilled his fate. He isn't necessary anymore.
Besides, a true hero desveres to go out with a bang, die while still be glorious and heroic, instead of growing old and feeble, losing his teeth and need help to not defecate himself.

Personally, I hate it when characters are needlessly killed off just because it's the end. I'd much rather imagine they went on to better and greater adventures (or at the very least lived happily ever after.) Mind you I've always thought heroic sacrifice was the height of stupidity at the best of times; or at any rate, the fact that the big bad can only be defeated by same.

'Course, that is a Lich's perspective...

[Solaris]

The War of the Worlds remake. Robbie would not survive.

[Tormsskull]

I'm kinda floored by how often the phrase "you know" or y'know has been used in this thread.

[Da'Shain]

When a hero has fulfilled his or her purpose in a story -most often the defeat of the opposing force - there is just no need to keep him afterwards. The hero has proven his worth and competence through beating the opposing force, and therefore has fulfilled his fate. He isn't necessary anymore.So, after a hero wins, there's no incentive to keep them around at all? What if they're needed to save the world again? What if they're needed to help rebuild after the fact? What if they have a family waiting for them at home? Only truly heroic characters desert the world after "fulfilling their fate," it seems.


Besides, a true hero desveres to go out with a bang, die while still be glorious and heroic, instead of growing old and feeble, losing his teeth and need help to not defecate himself. I would be willing to bet that most "true heroes" would violently disagree with you. In their eyes, they deserve a fulfilling life after whatever event caused them to become a hero. Precious few actually aspire to die when they're acting all heroic-like.

[Athaniar]

X-Men 3

The Phoenix fully emerges, and lots of CGI goodness follows. Also, I'd rewrite the beginning, so Cyclops doesn't get a bridge dropped on him.


Star Wars: Episode III

Grievous's death needs more epic. Actually, Grievous himself needs more epic. Seriously, why did they reduce him to a coughing comic relief character instead of letting him be an awesome Jedi-slaying machine? Actually, let Grievous survive and help with the Jedi purge, then give him some high position within the Empire, alongside Darth Vader.


Star Wars: The Last Command (and further books)

Thrawn somehow survives, and takes the guise of the con artist Flim, who pretends to be Thrawn in an intricate scheme, manipulating the events as he sees fit.

[Da'Shain]

Star Wars: Episode III
While a single rewrite to the end can't save this garbage, by far the part that needs it most is "I have the high ground!" This duel would be cut roughly in half (seriously, a single duel does not need ten minutes, especially with so little talking going on), and would end with Obi-wan, falling back continuously, causing an explosion in either one of the shielding units or on one of the hover-thingies that maims Anakin and sends him falling down the lava river's banks. This way, Obi-wan still wins through smarts and experience, but we don't have that ridiculously stupid move by Anakin of leaping directly over someone's head with plenty of warning and expecting to not get sliced and diced.

Batman Begins
The one, major flaw in this movie is Ducard's seeming brain shutdown regarding the microwave emitter. If his plan is to bring it to the main water pumps under Wayne Tower, then WHY would he turn it on in the Narrows and try to carry it to his destination by train instead of simply bringing it directly to Wayne Tower in his truck? Instead, the Scarecrow should get loose on his own and set it off in the Narrows, ignorant of Ducard's original plan, forcing Batman to come have a final showdown with Crane which Ducard and his men interrupt in order to take back the microwave emitter. This also explains why Ducard didn't stay to make sure Bruce died; he was called by his men when they discover Crane's hijacking of their plans. From there, movie continues as normal, except Scarecrow gets taken down by either Batman or the League of Shadows and not by being tasered by Rachel.

Heroes: Season 1
Hiro's stabbing of Sylar was ridiculously anticlimactic. (And retarded; Hiro's genre savvy enough to know that stabbing someone once almost never actually kills anyone in comics.) Instead, have Peter be getting his ass kicked by Sylar, barely holding him off from killing all the other heroes; after all, while Peter has more powers, Sylar actually knows how to use all of his well. Suddenly, Hiro appears when Sylar is about to finish Peter off, and instead of screaming and running at Syalr, he appears right in front of Sylar as the bad guy's in mid-lunge. Sylar impales himself on the sword. As Sylar slumps to the ground, Hiro is flung away by telekinesis, and Sylar seemingly dies. (I'd argue that Sylar should ACTUALLY die, but that would rewrite not just the end of season 1 but the entire story arc of the show, so I'll leave that one be.)

[Nerd-o-rama]

When a hero has fulfilled his or her purpose in a story -most often the defeat of the opposing force - there is just no need to keep him afterwards. The hero has proven his worth and competence through beating the opposing force, and therefore has fulfilled his fate. He isn't necessary anymore.
Besides, a true hero desveres to go out with a bang, die while still be glorious and heroic, instead of growing old and feeble, losing his teeth and need help to not defecate himself. That's a rather...specific take on the Hero's Journey. It also ignores every hero that accomplishes anything besides physical fighting.

[Rutskarn]

Have you read Dante's Inferno? Because Dante agreed with you.




He does. I have read classical comments to the odyssey where it was mentioned that the slaughtering of the suiters - who are guests in his own house - is a sign of insanity. Besides, Odysseus is a broken, old man when he arrives in Ithaca, haggard and old. He is one of the few greek heroes who does not die an Euthanatos.

Well, gosh, who needs Christmas? I've got all the gifts I need, and all I needed to do was unwrap them!

(sniff) I promised myself I wouldn't cry...

[SurlySeraph]

@^: Oh, and I just remembered that the Inferno isn't copyright-protected, what with how old it is. Enjoy. (http://www.english.upenn.edu/Projects/knarf/EtAlia/inf26.html)

[Rutskarn]

Oh, I will.

Ah, Odysseus in eternal torment. What more could one want from life?

[Aotrs Commander]

Star Wars: The Last Command (and further books)

Thrawn somehow survives, and takes the guise of the con artist Flim, who pretends to be Thrawn in an intricate scheme, manipulating the events as he sees fit.


It's a cacking awesome idea. That's just crazy enough to work. He could certainly pull it off without batting an eyelid. Nice.

[TheBST]

Ah, Odysseus in eternal torment. What more could one want from life?

So, why?

Might be only speaking for myself but in The Illiad he was the only character I was rooting for.

[Rutskarn]

By all the gods, I was HOPING somebody would ask that.

Behold the fury of my...

ODYSSEY RAGE!

The Odyssey, by Homer, is a fascinating tale of hypocrisy, hubris, murder and manipulation, all of which more or less completely escape consequence. Our protagonist, Odysseus, is less of a sympathetic wanderer and more of a biblical plague.

Let's break it down, shall we?

Odysseus was warned by the people of the island not to go into the cave, because there's a Cyclops there.

Odysseus: Lol wut

Odysseus proceeds to lead all his men into the cave, resulting in the deaths of several innocent soldiers.

Odysseus manages to get everybody out.

Odysseus: Oh MAN that was awesome, right? I got several of my men killed on a whim, but I got them back out! Now let me totally rub it in that guy's face!

Soldier: Uh, isn't that a really bad idea?

Odysseus: HEY CYCLOPS! TELL YOUR MOM ODYSSEUS SAID HI!

Poseidon: What! That insipid mortal wounded the Cyclops! As punishment for his actions, all of his men will die!

Soldiers (together): Wait, what?

Odysseus then washes up on Circe's shore. After she states that she loves him, Odysseus decides to spend one year partying at her pad.

Soldier: Wait, wasn't this whole thing about coming home to your wife? Your chaste wife? The one who was remaining pure all this time?

Odysseus: I'M SORRY, I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF ALL THE FORNICATION I'M HAVING.

Soldier: (dies in freak accident)

Other Soldier: Worst. Pickup crew. Ever.

Odysseus gets back on a boat and, after manipulating a few other women along the way, gets home.

He then proceeds to brutally murder not only all the suitors, who had had the temerity to court his wife despite her husband being gone for over a decade, but also the maids who had slept with any of the suitors at any time. Also, one goatherder guy had mocked Odysseus when he was in disguise, so he got his entrails ripped out.

Translations vary as to whether or not he killed the pets of the suitors, or people who had looked at the suitors, or people who had shaken hands with people who had met the pets of the suitors, or people who had ever said the words Odysseus and smelly in the same sentence.

Our hero.

Understandably, the families of all the a.) innocent crew members and b.) innocent suitors who died as a direct result of the actions of brave Odysseus were a little ticked off.

Families: What? That guy's a monster! His selfish actions have caused the deaths of people across the globe, while fighting for a cause (the sanctity of their marriage) which he himself has repeatedly betrayed!

Athena: But he's so shiny.

Families: Meh, that's true. (drop torches and pitchforks)

...you know, the Greek definition of a hero wasn't really somebody who was noble, or honorable. It was really just somebody who did impressive stuff.

Jack the Ripper: Great hero, or great-est hero?

[Tengu_temp]

...you know, the Greek definition of a hero wasn't really somebody who was noble, or honorable. It was really just somebody who did impressive stuff.

Jack the Ripper: Great hero, or great-est hero?

Were there any Greek heroes who didn't do anything that'd qualify them as total d*cks?

[Rutskarn]

Were there any Greek heroes who didn't do anything that'd qualify them as total d*cks?

No.

No, there were not.

[Tengu_temp]

Orpheus? Granted, I don't know his myth very well.

[Rutskarn]

In fairness, looking back at his girlfriend wasn't so much a jerk move as really bloody stupid.

Like, really, really bloody stupid.

[GolemsVoice]

The ending of System Shock 2 While there's nthing wrong with the ending per se, System Shock has never before shown any signs of humor. It was creepy, dark, claustrophobic, you name it. Now, our hero has finally faced Shodan, and kicked her circuits good. It was a hard fight, and he had fought bravely despite all the insanity going on around him. He has seen things that would turn lesser men into mindless, screaming husks. Now, finally, he has the one responsible at gunpoint. She begs him, tries to lure him in her electronic arms. But the stalwart hero simply draws his pistol and finishes her. No. Wait, rewind. He actually says something. Does our silent hero give her a mean one-liner? Does he laugh at her, or mock her in her weakness? No. He says "Nay". Nay! When I first watched the film, I thought it was the german localization doing a bad job, but noooo. Somebody was mad enough to end this epic game with such a ridiculous "Nay". Now I realize it was probably ment as a comic relief, the ultimative laugh after all that horror, or the total subversion of the atmosphere the game had built up earlier, and, well, maybe. But if I could rewrite it, he simply would have put a bullet through her screen-skull. Without words.

[Innis Cabal]

I think "No" is a good way to end someone who'se done all the things she did.

[Agrippa]

Were there any Greek heroes who didn't do anything that'd qualify them as total d*cks?

I'm not quite sure if I can think of anyone else. Of course any Greek hero who wasn't a complete jackass would probably have been considered an antihero back then. To the ancient Greeks any hero who was timid (or even cautious), passive and indecisive was automatically an antihero.

[chiasaur11]

To be fair to Odysseus, the suitors were harassing his wife when she clearly wanted no part of it, abusing his son, and they killed his dog.

They were pretty much asking for it.

[Rutskarn]

To be fair to Odysseus, the suitors were harassing his wife when she clearly wanted no part of it, abusing his son, and they killed his dog.

They were pretty much asking for it.

Correction.

SOME SUITORS harassed his wife, SOME SUITORS abused his son, and A FEW SUITORS killed his dog.

I believe several of them were actually referred to as being nice guys.

Stringing up the maids, however, was inexcusable.

[Ravens_cry]

Enterprise.
Well for starters, no Holodecking with Troi and Riker. Also, I wouldn't have killed off Trip.

[WalkingTarget]

The Odysseus hate I see occasionally always strikes me as odd.

Warning: long Odyssey rant follows.

Lotus Eaters: He could have left the men behind to their fate, he tries to bring them home anyway. This screws up xenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenia_(Greek)), the guest/host relationship, by coercing the guests into staying indefinitely.

Polyphemus: They violated xenia by assuming that they could expect hospitality, but Odysseus managed to get all of his men out in a clever way. Sure he blabbed about his name after they were out, but his pride was his tragic flaw.

Aeolus: Odysseus trusted his men for a few hours and they totally screwed everything up. If they hadn't disobeyed orders they would have been home right then.

Laestrygonians: They got ambushed while scouting around. Only one boat made it away, but it's not really anybody's fault.

Circe: Subjugates guests, emasculating them and holding them against their will. Odysseus manages to avoid this fate and frees his men. Getting the girl is a perk (and yes, there is a double-standard in the classical world in that men can sleep around but women can't; deal with it). She even advises them to visit Hades because they'll never make it back otherwise.

Hades: He gets advice from Tiresias, it's unpleasant. For example.

Sirens: Nobody gets hurt and he's clever enough to get to hear them anyway.

Scylla/Charybdis: The choice here was either brave this pair or take his chances with the wandering rocks (which only the Argo had passed, and that with divine aid) which could very easily kill them all. He chose the monsters. After making that choice, it's either Charybdis which is a crapshoot of everyone ok or everyone dies or certain death for 6 men (possibly himself). He chose the path that ensured that at least some of the men would get through. The other choices had no certainties.

Cattle of Helios: The men disobeyed orders again and they all died.

Calypso: Again the double-standard with women. At this point he doesn't have the means for leaving on his own anyway. In the end he still chooses home rather than immortality with a goddess as consort.

Phaeacians: And here's one of the important points. Odysseus tells his story as a guest and almost every problem he's faced has been related to people/entities abusing xenia. The first 4 books are about Telemachus and show both how this relationship is supposed to look (when he goes to Sparta) and how screwed up the situation at Ithaca is. Odysseus could be making the whole thing up (or at least spinning the story) in an attempt to make the Phaeacians well-disposed towards him.

Ithaca: He arrives home to find that these men have been trampling all over xenia. They have been eating his food and drinking his wine for years now with no plans on stopping despite Penelope's indifference to their advances. Telemachus tries to be a good host (as shown in the first few books), but the suitors even go so far as to set an ambush to kill him which he only avoids due to Athena. Odysseus receives an appropriate welcome as a guest despite all of this going on around him. Mopping up after the suitors are dead might be going a bit far, but the goatherd at least was actively treacherous. Xenia is almost the whole point of the story and the suitor's fate is important. The families of his crew and the suitors even come for vengeance when Athena shows up and stops the fighting (so it's a Deus Ex Machina situation that gets him out of it, fine). He is set a penance he must undergo at the least.

tl;dr - Within the context of the story, Odysseus isn't a bad guy. The Greeks really respected craftiness (metis), Odysseus' primary trait. The Romans didn't appreciate it nearly as much and thought this trait made him sneaky and underhanded and gave him a bad reputation for centuries.

[Ecalsneerg]

Batman Begins
The one, major flaw in this movie is Ducard's seeming brain shutdown regarding the microwave emitter. If his plan is to bring it to the main water pumps under Wayne Tower, then WHY would he turn it on in the Narrows and try to carry it to his destination by train instead of simply bringing it directly to Wayne Tower in his truck? Instead, the Scarecrow should get loose on his own and set it off in the Narrows, ignorant of Ducard's original plan, forcing Batman to come have a final showdown with Crane which Ducard and his men interrupt in order to take back the microwave emitter. This also explains why Ducard didn't stay to make sure Bruce died; he was called by his men when they discover Crane's hijacking of their plans. From there, movie continues as normal, except Scarecrow gets taken down by either Batman or the League of Shadows and not by being tasered by Rachel.
The one major flaw in the film is Batman kills, I'd have to disagree with your one because I didn't think too much on it. He engineers the train falling, and he leaves Ra's on said train. That's not 'not saving him', that's killing him. I'd change it so he saves Ra's, but he either kills himself (or makes it look like it) because he's failed. Y'know, the whole honourable thing :smallwink:

[Oslecamo]

Correction.

SOME SUITORS harassed his wife, SOME SUITORS abused his son, and A FEW SUITORS killed his dog.

I believe several of them were actually referred to as being nice guys.

Stringing up the maids, however, was inexcusable.

Kill one person and you're a murderer.

Kill ten and you're a monster.

Kill a hundred and you're a hero.

Kill a thousand and you're a conqueror.

Kill a hundred thousand and you're a liberator.

History is full of guys who were considered heros for slaughtering entire populations. Both in myth and reality. Odysseus is actually a very nice guy, compared with some other people, like WAR FOR THE WAR GOD spartans, whose notion of diplomacy is killing the messenger, the guys who were next the messenger and anyone who agrees with the messengers.

[Rutskarn]

I'm sorry, a lot of Odysseus' actions were morally reprehensible, even if some of them had (minor) mitigating circumstances.

The Odysseus of Homer is arrogant, spiteful, adulterous, possessive and bloodthirsty. The fact that he was less of any of those things than 90% of the other Greek heroes doesn't really change that fact that he was, at least by my standards, a distinctly unsympathetic character.

[Jorkens]

Harry Potter:

In the last book of Harry Potter, I would demand Rowling to write as if Harry really had died and Voldemort ruled all of the world as it's Dark King. And then the cycle would continue with heroes rising to fight the Dark King, but failing.

And if I can't do that, I demand a less egregiously crappy fanfiction end.

Yeah. I like the idea of a happy ending and didn't want some sort of everyone dies ending, but I found the finale in the book really unsatisfying. It's just so limited in its scope and so prosaic. I wanted to see people riding off into the sunset with a sense that they've come through all the suffering and bad times and now they've all got the possibility to do whatever they want, not people on a horse half way through the sunset saying "hey, this is a nice horse isn't it? And what a pretty sunset. Hurrah!" and the information that a few of the main characters have managed to survive a couple of decades and start families.

Also it seems really weird to have to suddenly visualize them as adults having got used to them being about 18.

[Rutskarn]

Also Re: Harry Potter.


In the last book of Harry Potter, I would demand Rowling to write as if Harry really had died and Voldemort ruled all of the world as it's Dark King. And then the cycle would continue with heroes rising to fight the Dark King, but failing.

And if I can't do that, I demand a less egregiously crappy fanfiction end.

Crappy fanfiction aside, that would have been a terrible ending.
Harry Potter is based off of the idea that villains build their own undoing; having Voldemort win would not only have been an extremely unsatisfying ending, it would have gone against everything the novels had set up.

[Oslecamo]

I'm sorry, a lot of Odysseus' actions were morally reprehensible, even if some of them had (minor) mitigating circumstances.

The Odysseus of Homer is arrogant, spiteful, adulterous, possessive and bloodthirsty. The fact that he was less of any of those things than 90% of the other Greek heroes doesn't really change that fact that he was, at least by my standards, a distinctly unsympathetic character.

It was other times. Where a men's life really wasn't worth much and wifes being treated as objects was considered the right thing to do.

If you don't remember, Odysseus didn't want to go to war in the first place, so the other heros threatened to kill his kid if Odysseu's didn't go with them!

He spent ten freaking years in a war he didn't want to be in the first place in wich everybody around him is more or less mad, then the gods themselves conspire to stop him from returning home. He would need to be some cold bastard to don't be affected by all that.

[Rutskarn]

I didn't say his actions were culturally unacceptable, or that he had never had tragedy in his life.

That doesn't make me like him.

[WalkingTarget]

I'm sorry, a lot of Odysseus' actions were morally reprehensible, even if some of them had (minor) mitigating circumstances.

The Odysseus of Homer is arrogant, spiteful, adulterous, possessive and bloodthirsty. The fact that he was less of any of those things than 90% of the other Greek heroes doesn't really change that fact that he was, at least by my standards, a distinctly unsympathetic character.

And there we have it. You're welcome to your standards, just try not to feel persecuted if we disagree with you. :smallsmile:

[Rutskarn]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I hardly feel as if my sensibilities are under assault.

I just hates me my Odysseus, is all.

Passionately.

[Jayngfet]

Come to think of it, were any of the actual greek gods likable? Or just about any character from that era?

[WalkingTarget]

By modern, western standards? Not really.

[Rutskarn]

I dunno. Hephaestus, probably.

I really don't mind a lot of Greek gods/heroes. I can put them in the right context, and enjoy them.

Odysseus? Not so much.

[Jorkens]

Come to think of it, were any of the actual greek gods likable?
To steal a line from Neal Stephenson:
“...the typical Greek myth goes something like this: innocent shepherd boy is minding his own business, an overflying god spies him and gets a hard-on, swoops down and rapes him silly; while the victim is still staggering around in a daze, that god’s wife or lover, in a jealous rage, turns him – the helpless, innocent victim, that is – into let’s say an immortal turtle and e.g. power-staples him to a sheet of plywood with a dish of turtle food just out of his reach and leaves him out in the sun forever to be repeatedly disemboweled by army ants and stung by hornets or something."

[Rutskarn]

Alright, we should probably get back on topic.

Whether or not there should be a Hate On/Defend Greek mythology thread is debatable.

[Jayngfet]

I dunno. Hephaestus, probably.

Hehe, Haphaestus. Except for that bit with the magic chains(which was awesome enough and justified to forget about), I don't think I've ever heard him do that much.


Leave it to the guy they name weapons and evil dragons after to be the only fairly nice guy in mythology.

[WalkingTarget]

Well, he did try to rape Athena. That didn't work out so well.

[Jayngfet]

So then, every greek figure is a A-Hole.

[WalkingTarget]

Well, I can't think of anything bad that Hestia did at all, then again, I can't think of anything she did at all, so that might not mean much. Hearth Goddesses probably didn't have much trouble to get up to.

If you get outside of the Gods then there are some blameless people. Eurydice didn't do anything bad, she's just the victim and Orpheus really only screwed up that one time. Likewise Atalanta and Meleager were ok.

Edit: anyway, back to the actual topic I suppose...

[chiasaur11]

So then, every greek figure is a A-Hole.

Well, Hestia might not be.

She just kinda sat there doing nothing most of the time.

[Oslecamo]

Well, Hestia might not be.

She just kinda sat there doing nothing most of the time.

She did her best to repel the pretendents whitout hurting them.

"My husband is avery jealous man, and when he comes back he's gonna make you all in mince meat, so you better not be here when he returns ok?"

It was their fault for not listening.

[Rutskarn]

Ooh, yeah, the whole Athena thing.

Although I think there's a couple different versions of that.

[Jayngfet]

She did her best to repel the pretendents whitout hurting them.

"My husband is avery jealous man, and when he comes back he's gonna make you all in mince meat, so you better not be here when he returns ok?"

It was their fault for not listening.

He'd been gone for a decade.

[Jayngfet]

I'm wondering, what about norse mythology? Yeah, thor enslaved those kids(who we never saw again after that little adventure), and Odin's generally a petty ****, Loki's been flanderised from a prankster into the root of all evil...

[endoperez]

I'm wondering, what about norse mythology? Yeah, thor enslaved those kids(who we never saw again after that little adventure), and Odin's generally a petty ****, Loki's been flanderised from a prankster into the root of all evil...

http://www.tvwiki.tv/wiki/Tjalvi

Greek gods would have done worse than enslaved the kid. At least broken his legs, probably worse. As is, Thor just took him and his sister with him to Valhalla. Not that harsh of a punishment, really.

I'm not sure what you mean by flanderization of Loki, but I hope you do know that he was basically the bad guy in the old Norse stories? Causing armageddon, killing the blind god Balder, fathering several monsters (Fenrir who will eat Odin and Jormungard who will poison Thor) and all the other nasty stuff? Yeah, a harmless prankster...

[Jayngfet]

Actually he was a prankster at first from what I heard, when christian influence spread in he was used as a satan analogue.

[Satyr]

You really try to criticise the morals of a more than 2000 year old tale and wonder that the morality of the people and the audience has significantly changed? If you want to discuss the behavior of a literature figure as Oddysseus is completely meaningless and shallow; it doesn't make more sense than debating The Dark Knight Returns from the perspective of Homer. It is even more obscure to come to a moral sentence about these characters based on completely different standards.

That's said, Walking Target's explanation's to this topic were very informative and interesting.

[adibobo]

http://www.tvwiki.tv/wiki/Tjalvi

I'm not sure what you mean by flanderization of Loki, but I hope you do know that he was basically the bad guy in the old Norse stories? Causing armageddon, killing the blind god Balder, fathering several monsters (Fenrir who will eat Odin and Jormungard who will poison Thor) and all the other nasty stuff? Yeah, a harmless prankster...

Actually he was a prankster at the begining and actualy helped the other guys a few times( of course those were times that all the gods were big jerks), but then Loki sudently decided that he hates the other gods and wants to kill them.

[Rutskarn]

You really try to criticise the morals of a more than 2000 year old tale and wonder that the morality of the people and the audience has significantly changed? If you want to discuss the behavior of a literature figure as Oddysseus is completely meaningless and shallow; it doesn't make more sense than debating The Dark Knight Returns from the perspective of Homer. It is even more obscure to come to a moral sentence about these characters based on completely different standards.

That's said, Walking Target's explanation's to this topic were very informative and interesting.

As I stated earlier, it's not that I don't know moral standards have changed, although I'm willing to be indiscriminate slaughter and getting people killed for no good reason was always a bit of a faux pas in domestic affairs. We expect different things from our heroes, that's all.

All I'm saying is that Odysseus, in particular, gets under my skin, especially when analyzing him in a modern context, as I have been called upon to do occasionally.

[Zocelot]

I'd rewrite the final Harry Potter book so that in the epilogue, Harry gets run over and killed by the Hogwarts Express, in front of his friends and family. That would really surprise everyone to have the main character killed off in the epilogue.

Alternatively, he'd stay dead. The school would still win though, because they'd be impossible to kill thanks to Harry dying for them.

[Rutskarn]

I'd rewrite the final Harry Potter book so that in the epilogue, Harry gets run over and killed by the Hogwarts Express, in front of his friends and family. That would really surprise everyone to have the main character killed off in the epilogue.

Alternatively, he'd stay dead. The school would still win though, because they'd be impossible to kill thanks to Harry dying for them.

I think I sense a little hostility towards the franchise.

I could be wrong.

[Da'Shain]

The one major flaw in the film is Batman kills, I'd have to disagree with your one because I didn't think too much on it. He engineers the train falling, and he leaves Ra's on said train. That's not 'not saving him', that's killing him. I'd change it so he saves Ra's, but he either kills himself (or makes it look like it) because he's failed. Y'know, the whole honourable thing :smallwink: Re: Batman BeginsIf Ra's hadn't deliberately made the train unstoppable, he would've been fine. If Ra's hadn't been fighting Batman so hard he couldn't get a word in edgewise, he would've been fine. If Ra's hadn't had an evil plan that resulted in the destruction of a city in the first place, he would've been fine.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't mind the hero leaving the villain to a karmic death in the slightest.

And Ducard doesn't at all strike me as the type to kill himself for failing. He's not a samurai, he's an extremist who believes in doing what's necessary to achieve his ends; if what was necessary meant sucking it up and coming up with a new plan, he'd do it.

The flaw I chose, though, bugs the crap out of me in retrospect. The first time I saw the movie I didn't even think about it, but the second time, noticing it almost spoiled the entire thing for me. I can handle Batman being not quite as gung ho about "no killing" as he is in the comics (he's still far less willing to kill than the Tim Burton Batman), but logical mistakes just make me crazy.

[Dacia Brabant]

Actually he was a prankster at the begining and actualy helped the other guys a few times( of course those were times that all the gods were big jerks), but then Loki sudently decided that he hates the other gods and wants to kill them.

Every time he helped them it was only after causing one of them trouble in the first place, but then he went too far and got Baldr killed and wouldn't cooperate with what needed to be done to resurrect him, so the others ganged up, bound him with his kid's entrails and tortured him. Big surprise he wanted to get revenge after breaking free, hence confirming the prophesy of Ragnarok.

What amuses me is, when people say he was originally regarded as a trickster god who got Christianized into an analogue to Satan by later scribes, they neglect to mention that he was depicted as both prankster and nemesis in the same texts. The oldest extant source we have for the myths of the Aesir is the Voluspa (leaving out the Gestae Danorum since it purports to be historical, not mythological), and it says Loki was responsible for killing Baldr, which leads to Ragnarok. Yeah, later writers like Snorri Sturluson do build on that and emphasize his deceitfulness and all the Gotterdammerung stuff, but for all we know Loki was always a bad guy, even if a complicated one.

And it's not like there aren't other similarities between various Indo-European cultures' myths and beliefs.

[Zocelot]

I think I sense a little hostility towards the franchise.

I could be wrong.

Sorry if my post was a bit hostile. I really liked the series, but I feel that Harry's survival was forced and awkward. Killing him off in the epilogue would also be awkward but my second idea, for him to stay dead, is reasonable.

[Rutskarn]

Actually, the word I was originally going to use was, "bitterness".

So, yeah, that fits.

I agree that his death/life wasn't handled as well as it could have been, and I personally would have bet a minute sum that Harry was going to hang before I read the book.

I think it could work either way: the series required neither his death nor his life.

[SurlySeraph]

So then, every greek figure is a A-Hole.

Troy's royal family was decent, with the exception of Paris. Hector is the closest thing to a paladin in Greek mythology. But pretty much every mythological figure has their moments of being a horrible person.

[Jayngfet]

You really try to criticise the morals of a more than 2000 year old tale and wonder that the morality of the people and the audience has significantly changed? If you want to discuss the behavior of a literature figure as Oddysseus is completely meaningless and shallow; it doesn't make more sense than debating The Dark Knight Returns from the perspective of Homer. It is even more obscure to come to a moral sentence about these characters based on completely different standards.

That's said, Walking Target's explanation's to this topic were very informative and interesting.

'Scuse me for wanting a hero who stood up to the ideals he holds everyone else to. Or, y'know, does something that isn't stupid. And isn't saved by a godess for no reason.

[Innis Cabal]

Cao Cao for instance.

Though based on a real person. Still a mythical person in somew respects.

[MeklorIlavator]

'Scuse me for wanting a hero who stood up to the ideals he holds everyone else to. Or, y'know, does something that isn't stupid. And isn't saved by a godess for no reason.

Since when does he do that? From what I remember, he doesn't hold others to higher standards, and he does pretty well on his own, only needing a goddesses help when things get really bad, and having gods/goddesses help mortals is a pretty ingrained into the culture of the time(Deus Ex Machina, anyone?).

[Jayngfet]

Since when does he do that? From what I remember, he doesn't hold others to higher standards, and he does pretty well on his own, only needing a goddesses help when things get really bad, and having gods/goddesses help mortals is a pretty ingrained into the culture of the time(Deus Ex Machina, anyone?).

He sleeps around with a few women and his wife is supposed to be chaste a decade after he leaves, and he did decide to go into the cyclops's house and start eating his livestock, among other things.

[Satyr]

'Scuse me for wanting a hero who stood up to the ideals he holds everyone else to. Or, y'know, does something that isn't stupid. And isn't saved by a godess for no reason.

And yes, on the level of the classical greek tale I wouldn't say a word against it. I think it is a neat form of the narrative - always trouble with the old hospitalitity, and in the end, he can't attune to the rules anymore as well. Clever storytelling.
And Odysseus does rarely stuff that is clearly stupid. Yes, he trusts his crew a bit too much in one of the confrontations, it was probably not the wisest idea to wipe out the half noble offspring of Ithaca and its neighbourhood, but he is still the archetypical character who solves many of his problems through outsmarting the opposing force instead of the standardised application of violence. Odysseus is the role model of the smart hero.
And he isn't saved by Athene for no reason. He is beloved of her, while Poseidon wants to punish him. He has earned her support through a) making sure that Troy was burned and plundered, to linder the pain of her hurt ego and b) because he is a smart guy who thinks before he acts and is definitely the astute one of the Archaians. That seem to impress a goddess of intellect and warfare.



He sleeps around with a few women and his wife is supposed to be chaste a decade after he leaves, and he did decide to go into the cyclops's house and start eating his livestock, among other things.

Yo know, we are talking about a culture where women where so completely not emancipated that most men believed that true love can only be found among men because women are not able to feel passionate love. In old Greece, a woman was mostly the property and brood mare of her husband. Obviously, the conventions have changed (and I would even say to the better), but that is exactly why it is so absurd to discuss the morals of a tale outside of its cultural context. Yes, based on current conventions, this is an extreme double standard. Based on the cultural background of the tale, the very passionate love of Odysseus for his wife and his willingness to forgo immortality for it are actually romantic traits.
Besides, I think that I have read that the depiction of Penelope was outstanding for its time and cultural environment, as she is shown as a smart and resolute woman who obviously can rule her island kingdom on her own for quite some time. The Odyssey is full of "power women" figures, which is not really a very common trait of classical narratives.
And about the Polyphem tale I couldn't say anything that Walking Target hasn't already explained better than I could.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also, Odysseus did plenty of things that weren't stupid in the Iliad. The Odyssey is basically one vicious cycle of him being rash, the gods screwing him over for being rash, and him having to be rash again to get out of it. He still thinks his way through problems more than, say, Hercules.

[Athaniar]

If you all want to discuss the moralities of mythological heroes and deities, then perhaps you should create a separate thread for that, hm?

[Rutskarn]

Alright, we should probably get back on topic.

Whether or not there should be a Hate On/Defend Greek mythology thread is debatable.

I'm going to go ahead and agree with LX. We're probably hijacking this thread...and it's a decent one, so let's not.

[Jayngfet]

Well then, what should be the opening of that thread, cuz I have no idea on how to phrase it's premise.

[Shosuro Ishii]

Firefly:

runs for 6 years and recieves a satisfying, proper conclusion

Come on...it's the internet...somebody had to say it.

[chiasaur11]

Firefly:

runs for 6 years and recieves a satisfying, proper conclusion

Come on...it's the internet...somebody had to say it.

And every year is better than the last.

[Hida Reju]

Well where to start

The movie Next with Nick Cage....ok his powers are not in sync with the listed limitations and start to power burst for no reason near the end. Needs to have the story writen not to be a f*cked up dream sequence.

The anime Ergo Proxy.....wtf you go from a cool story to nothing at the end in like 2 episodes, its like they lost funding at the end for no reason and rushed missing some key episodes.

The anime Gungrave....you go from wanting to kill someone the whole anime to not killing him on a whim?

The video game Kingdom Hearts 2....to give the nobodies some freaking love, geez every Disney character in the series and Sora needed to get over themselves and treat obviously living beings as real.

[Ganurath]

Gurren Lagann: The same effect that restores Lord Genome's body revives the casualties of the attack on the Anti-Spirals because they died recently and nearby, as well as Kamina by his spiral energy coming back when everyone breaks away from the Lotus Eater Machine. Then, in an act of mercy, when the Anti-Spiral King is dying it uses the last of its energy to allow those temporarily restored to remain alive, although Lord Genome is still dead because that continuation would be rather awkward, especially with Kamina. Final scene has Kamina looking over the shoulders of Simon and Nia, the latter of which holds their baby.

[LurkerInPlayground]

On Eva:

You do realize that people can rise from Tang if they have the will to live, and Shinji and Asuka just were the first to do so? Possibly including Kaji, seeing that he was in the Instrumentality in episodes 25-26, and surely including people who died shortly before it like Misato?

By the standards of Grimdark Super Robot Deconstructions that Eva started, this is a happy ending.

Let's see how will the new Eva movies end. Something tells me they're how Anno wanted everything to look from the beginning.
Yes, it would have been actually *nice* if Hideaki Anno actually made that explicit within the ending instead of babbling incoherently for over an hour.

[LurkerInPlayground]

The ending of System Shock 2 While there's nthing wrong with the ending per se, System Shock has never before shown any signs of humor. It was creepy, dark, claustrophobic, you name it. Now, our hero has finally faced Shodan, and kicked her circuits good. It was a hard fight, and he had fought bravely despite all the insanity going on around him. He has seen things that would turn lesser men into mindless, screaming husks. Now, finally, he has the one responsible at gunpoint. She begs him, tries to lure him in her electronic arms. But the stalwart hero simply draws his pistol and finishes her. No. Wait, rewind. He actually says something. Does our silent hero give her a mean one-liner? Does he laugh at her, or mock her in her weakness? No. He says "Nay". Nay! When I first watched the film, I thought it was the german localization doing a bad job, but noooo. Somebody was mad enough to end this epic game with such a ridiculous "Nay". Now I realize it was probably ment as a comic relief, the ultimative laugh after all that horror, or the total subversion of the atmosphere the game had built up earlier, and, well, maybe. But if I could rewrite it, he simply would have put a bullet through her screen-skull. Without words.
No, he said "Nah." As in, he gives it a second's thought and casually dismisses her offer as the deceit that it is.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes, it would have been actually *nice* if Hideaki Anno actually made that explicit within the ending instead of babbling incoherently for over an hour.Well, be fair, he did take fifteen seconds to make it explicit...and over an hour to be incoherent. Hey, at least we got a neat song out of it.

On the Gurren-Lagann thing...I hesitate to undo any deaths that were as important and vital to the show's message (or rather, to peoples' understanding of the show's message) as that last one was. Even
Faded-into-obscurity-Simon
is totally vital to the overall theme.

Spoilered ranting

The show is not just about willpower and determination overcoming everything. It is also about knowing when it's time to leave things in the hands of others. The antagonists of the show, from the village elder on up through the Anti-Spiral, all have one overriding motivation: abusing their power to keep themselves on top and others static. The ending of Gurren-Lagann is excellent as it is for showing that the heroes have learned from their enemies, and know when to move on so that evolution can continue. Plus, you know, actually taking the Anti-Spiral's perfectly legitimate worries to heart and avoiding Spiral Nemesis all on their own.

[Raiser Blade]

Hole-E Crap this thread got derailed. o_o

I would re-write Full Metal Alchemist's ending even though as a whole I liked the series.

After all the crap the brothers go through during the series I don't think having them end up together on their native plane of existence is too much of a stretch.

[late for dinner]

Matrix Revolutions: Keanu Reeves wakes up and he is in a completly 80's out bedroom and he looks over at another guy with blonde curly hair sleeping on the floor and say's, "Dude, Bill, I just had the most exelent dream!" and then the credits roll

[H. Zee]

I would re-write the ending of the Prisoner of Azkaban movie so that, right at the end, Lupin actually explains that, at school, he was 'Moony,' and he, Harry's father, Sirius and Wormtail were the ones who created the Marauder's Map.

Seriously. It would've taken all of thirty seconds, and the plot makes no sense without it, but they left it out. I can't watch the film any more because it fills me with NERDRAGE every single time.

I also wish I could re-write the end of Twilight, both the book and the film, so that rocks fall and everyone dies. And not in a tragi-romantic way, either. In a messy, hilarious way.

[Oslecamo]

Spoilered ranting

The show is not just about willpower and determination overcoming everything. It is also about knowing when it's time to leave things in the hands of others. The antagonists of the show, from the village elder on up through the Anti-Spiral, all have one overriding motivation: abusing their power to keep themselves on top and others static. The ending of Gurren-Lagann is excellent as it is for showing that the heroes have learned from their enemies, and know when to move on so that evolution can continue. Plus, you know, actually taking the Anti-Spiral's perfectly legitimate worries to heart and avoiding Spiral Nemesis all on their own.

Or perhaps it's Simon realizing that his rash actions caused the obliteration of most of the people he cared about, thus proving that violence, giant robots and girls with skimpy clothes can give you power, but nothing more. He conquered the universe, but his hands are as covered in his loved's ones blood as much they can be, and he asks himself if it was really worth it. He concludes that no, and delivers the drill of despair and doom to another guy, praying he's wise enough to use it in a better way than mindlessly slaughtering everybody around you.

[Zordrath]

I would have rewritten the ending of the Hitchhiker's series so that books 4 to 6 would be non-existant.

[Innis Cabal]

So Long and Thanks for all the Fish wasn't bad. We have no idea how the new one is going to be either. 1-3 arn't bad and Mostly Harmless was just....a bad move all around.

[Zordrath]

6 might not turn out bad, but I don't like the general idea of handing this series over to another author. If not even Adams himself could replicate the awesomeness of 1-3...

4 was an alright book, but never felt like a true Hitchhiker's to me. 5 was... well, you named it.

[Innis Cabal]

The radio drama didn't end that way thankfully, so we can have the pleasure of knowing that no one really died.

As for the next book....its been accepted by the late Mr. Adam's widow fully supports the pick for who'se to write it, and Colfer isn't a bad writer. Not an Adam's mind you, but anything he procuces will -have- to be better then Mostly Harmless

[Artemician]

Or perhaps it's Simon realizing that his rash actions caused the obliteration of most of the people he cared about, thus proving that violence, giant robots and girls with skimpy clothes can give you power, but nothing more. He conquered the universe, but his hands are as covered in his loved's ones blood as much they can be, and he asks himself if it was really worth it. He concludes that no, and delivers the drill of despair and doom to another guy, praying he's wise enough to use it in a better way than mindlessly slaughtering everybody around you.

That's... quite a bit of a stretch, considering that

1) Simon never conquered the Universe.
2) Simon never blames himself for Nia's death
3) Simon does not lapse into despair over his loser friends dieing.

There isn't the impression that Simon regrets killing the anti-spiral at all.

[Lord of Rapture]

Code Geass R2 needs to be forgotten entirely and have a new season made. Preferably with the original plans, which starts right after the end of the first season, like a second later.

Good news for Fallout 3 fans! The developers are going to change the ending in their new patch! So you don't have to get the complete Wall Banger of the ending! (I haven't finished the game yet, but from what I've read, the ending really sucks and shouldn't have to be that way.)

[UltraDude]

Code Geass R2 needs to be forgotten entirely and have a new season made. Preferably with the original plans, which starts right after the end of the first season, like a second later.


Does Taniguchi do manga? Maybe we'll get it there in the future, though this is nothing but wild speculation. I'd like to see how R2 was supposed to play out, since it almost has to be better than what we got.

[warty goblin]

Or perhaps it's Simon realizing that his rash actions caused the obliteration of most of the people he cared about, thus proving that violence, giant robots and girls with skimpy clothes can give you power, but nothing more. He conquered the universe, but his hands are as covered in his loved's ones blood as much they can be, and he asks himself if it was really worth it. He concludes that no, and delivers the drill of despair and doom to another guy, praying he's wise enough to use it in a better way than mindlessly slaughtering everybody around you.

Well, I can think of a few other things you can get from girls with skimpy clothing*...

Hmm, the only ending I really objected to among the books I've read recently was Kushiel's Dart. One should not have to suffer through six hundred odd pages to find out that the villain's only motivation was "I was bored." Authors, if that's all you've got, you really need to come up with something better.

*Particularly in the Star Wars Saga Edition game I play in. The GM invented a sapient venereal disease, and has been itching for a chance to use it. Celibacy is strongly advised.

[Lord of Rapture]

Does Taniguchi do manga? Maybe we'll get it there in the future, though this is nothing but wild speculation. I'd like to see how R2 was supposed to play out, since it almost has to be better than what we got.

Well, there is a manga of the series (several, in fact), but it doesn't follow the original storyline exactly. And there are no Knightmares. And that's the one that follows the anime most closely. So... probably not.

I heard it would focus more on Marianne and the Geass in general, which would be great, since we still don't have a flipping clue what it is.

[darkblade]

I'm gonna risk a firing squad and say that I'd rewrite the ending to Neon Genesis Evangelion to make it as mind screwy as the Internet seems to think of it. I was terribly disappointed by the last two episodes. I expected a great epic mind screw that rivaled The Prisoner but all I got was basic Freudian analysis of Shinji and some minor exsitsental philosophy.

[WhiteHarness]

I'd re-write the End of Return of the Jedi so that the Rebels lose devastatingly and are all killed off. Vader rules the galaxy in awesomeness and Imperial grandeur forever.

Also, I despise the ending of Final Fantasy VII. It was the single most disappointing video game ending I've ever seen. I'm not sure how I'd re-write it, but since I hate nearly every character involved, I'd do so in a way that would kill the popularity that horrid game enjoys among fans even today--somehow, I'd want to make Cloud, Sephiroth and company so thoroughly unlikable that they'd have no legions of fanbois/girls nowadays.

[Lord Seth]

The question is a little ambiguous. Does it mean "you" as in you, and only you, do the rewriting? Or can "you" just say "remove the Executive Meddling on the end and let the writers finish it the way they wanted"? And exactly how much do we mean by "ending"? I see people saying "Code Geass R2", but that's HALF OF THE SEASON. I don't think that really counts as an "ending", unless you mean only rewriting the last one or two episodes.

InuYasha shouldn't even be in the running. Just read the manga if you want to see how it ends.

Evangelion is also a poor choice, because if you hated the TV series' ending, there's still End of Evangelion, and you should at least hold off judgment until you see what you think of Rebuild of Evangelion's ending.

Now, if we can say the "you" as in "you just give it over to the writers", I'd say fix the ending of Big O, no question. Yes, a lot of shows had problems with their endings, but AT LEAST THEY HAD ENDINGS. (even InuYasha had an ending in its manga) Big O's last episode was written on the expectation that they'd have another season or two to continue the series.

If I had to do the rewriting? Either Harry Potter or Avatar, probably the latter. All I'd change in Harry Potter is cut out the epilogue and expand the last chapter a little to hint as to where the characters would end up going.

But, I'd have to say Avatar. While I thought the finale had some good points, there were some major problems with it, such as:
1) Aang's angst on "I can't kill Ozai!" Okay, Aang, first off, you didn't seem to have much of a problem sinking Fire Nation ships in "Siege of the North", and we didn't see you making absolutely sure that every soldier survived, so you can stop this "I refuse to kill" stuff. But even if we accept that Aang is a hypocrite on this (hey, What Measure Is A Mook?), there's a bigger problem. This should have been brought up already. What did they think they were going to do in "Day of Black Sun"? The possibility of killing Ozai should have at least been brought up then. Instead, Aang's refusal is tossed at us at the last minute when it should have been mentioned earlier. Unless, of course, Aang only developed this opposition to killing in the finale for no reason other than to add drama. Which is pretty much what happened.
2) Spiritbending. As if the setup for the "can't kill Ozai" wasn't contrived enough, spiritbending was one of the dumbest deus ex machinas ever made. Why bother with all of the ansgt about killing Ozai if you come up with something OUT OF ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE that doesn't make you have to choose? I mean, don't get me wrong, taking a third option can be cool, but don't make such a big deal about the debate, then pull out something that again WAS NEVER FORESHADOWED IN THE LEAST to avoid the whole thing.
3) The reawakening of the Avatar State. While not as bad a deus ex machina as the above, it still comes out of nowhere. Aang's wound gets bumped and...this awakens it. For no apparent reason. I didn't like the Avatar State in Siege of the North, it was a deus ex machina then also, but darn it, it takes TALENT in bad writing to actually make something a deus ex machina twice!
4) Unresolved questions. Why throw in that scene of Zuko asking Ozai about his mother if we were never going to get an answer? I'm not saying we had to learn what happened to her, but why put in a scene REMINDING of us a dangling plot thread if you don't follow through on it?

Those are the main ones, anyway. There were some other less large problems but those are the ones I would fix. What would be best would to be go back and fix the season; we could've gotten rid of some of the filler episodes and used them to foreshadow some of the things that occurred in the finale. However, again, we're rewriting the END. We are not rewriting the last 50% or the last 33%. So we have to stick to the finale.

So, in summary, if the rewrite means I could give it to the writers, I would pick Big O. If I had to do the rewriting myself, I'd do Avatar.

[valadil]

Took me too long to come up with these: Arrested Development and Farscape.

Both were prematurely cancelled. Arrested Development had a whole season to finish up several seasons of plot. Farscape just got 4 hours of miniseries for a whole season. It worked, but you could tell it was rushed. Both were quality shows that deserved better.

[nothingclever]

I'd rewrite one Gundam series and have a real villain that actually wins decisively and is truly evil and not just misunderstood or something. Sure I get "point" of the Gundam series I just want to see one where it's different.

[darkblade]

Evangelion is also a poor choice, because if you hated the TV series' ending, there's still End of Evangelion, and you should at least hold off judgment until you see what you think of Rebuild of Evangelion's ending.

Neither ending was half as mind screwy as I was lead to believe. I thought they both worked quite nicely but where not as epic as what I was told. I am willing to reserve judgment on Rebuild until the last two movies are finished.

[keilyn]

Dean Koontz's "The Good Guy." He puts us in the head of a killer, makes us feel there's something more to him, some supernatural quality, and then NO. He's just crazy! Just an adept killer who happens to have a God complex. The title character then suddenly has all of these connections from out of nowhere, calls in a bunch of 'favors' that really could have been used a lot earlier (and shortened the book, and therefore, my umbrage), killer goes out like a punk, then it's over. It's like he just got bored and wrote the first (and most sucky) thing that came to mind. I haven't picked up one of his books since.

In fact, after about the first 4 Koontz books I read, I started to realize they're all mostly the same half-dozen characters with new names in different situations. Except for one, which reminds me-

Odd Thomas. I wouldn't rewrite it, but I think every sequel thereafter is a greater and greater travesty to the Odd name and should be ignored.

[Telonius]

The ending of IT actually didn't freak me out all that much.

Of course I'm the weirdo who realized what Holden was about to suggest near the end of Chasing Amy, right before he said it.

Endings I would change:

Lost Horizon, book by James Hilton. Beautiful little book, but the ending was just so unsatisfying. I wish I could figure out how to fix it.

The Black Cauldron, movie by Disney. It's the only known instance of a depressive suicide by a cute cuddly Disney critter. (Unfortunately resuscitated shortly afterwards). Should have stuck with the book's original plotline, which also involved a somewhat more redemptive sacrifice.

The Neverending Story, movie. Really, we do not need a narrator to suddenly do a voiceover for the first time in the final 20 seconds of the movie.

[Lord Seth]

Neither ending was half as mind screwy as I was lead to believe. I thought they both worked quite nicely but where not as epic as what I was told. I am willing to reserve judgment on Rebuild until the last two movies are finished.Honestly, I didn't think the last two episodes of Neon Genesis Evangelion was that horribly screwy...until the final scene. Now, I actually liked the final scene by itself, but it's given in no context. Are the people in that even real? Is this completely in Shinji's mind? I actually thought I sort of understood the final episodes up until that final scene, at which point I had no clue what happened.

End of Evangelion wasn't as much of a mind screw; you know what HAPPENED at the end (you don't know what happened afterwards, but you know what happened); but a lot of parts of it, especially in the second half, were immensely confusing and I had no idea what was going on.

[Lord of Rapture]

The question is a little ambiguous. Does it mean "you" as in you, and only you, do the rewriting? Or can "you" just say "remove the Executive Meddling on the end and let the writers finish it the way they wanted"? And exactly how much do we mean by "ending"? I see people saying "Code Geass R2", but that's HALF OF THE SEASON. I don't think that really counts as an "ending", unless you mean only rewriting the last one or two episodes.

I mean that Sunrise executives are a bunch of idiots who shouldn't have tossed out the writers' plans at the last minute and forced them to rewrite the script from scratch. That way, the entire season would be so much better, and the Geass would be more explained, like they planned to.

[Krytha]

Hmph well there's tons of endings that I want to change mostly because I hate unhappy endings, so think of lots of books/movies/shows that ended poorly for main characters and make it happy. (Ex: Moulin Rouge ->she dies! My Moulin Rouge -> she doesn't die!)

Aaand the only one I will elaborate a bit more on was my ending of Harry Potter because honestly the end was crap. To sum things up - Ginny and Harry fine whatever for a few years until Ginny contracts a terminal illness and passes away. Ron, stricken with grief becomes an alcoholic and suffers from an inferiority complex next to his accomplished wife, and ends up abusing his kids. Hermione tries to defend them, but Ron flies into a rage and accidentally kills some of his kids after a blast of dark magic grows beyond his control. Hermione takes the remaining child and runs to her best friend's house for protection, while Ron flees from those trying to apprehend him. Finally, he shows up at Harry's place, claims that Hermione was cheating on him all along and tries to kill them both but is defeated and becomes a dark wizard fugitive. Hermione and Harry end up creating a patch work family and all this because I hate Ron.

Yeah, that might take a book to develop... whatever..

[endoperez]

But, I'd have to say Avatar. While I thought the finale had some good points, there were some major problems with it, such as:
1) Aang's angst on "I can't kill Ozai!" Okay, Aang, first off, you didn't seem to have much of a problem sinking Fire Nation ships in "Siege of the North", and we didn't see you making absolutely sure that every soldier survived, so you can stop this "I refuse to kill" stuff. But even if we accept that Aang is a hypocrite on this (hey, What Measure Is A Mook?), there's a bigger problem. This should have been brought up already. What did they think they were going to do in "Day of Black Sun"? The possibility of killing Ozai should have at least been brought up then. Instead, Aang's refusal is tossed at us at the last minute when it should have been mentioned earlier. Unless, of course, Aang only developed this opposition to killing in the finale for no reason other than to add drama. Which is pretty much what happened.
2) Spiritbending. As if the setup for the "can't kill Ozai" wasn't contrived enough, spiritbending was one of the dumbest deus ex machinas ever made. Why bother with all of the ansgt about killing Ozai if you come up with something OUT OF ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE that doesn't make you have to choose? I mean, don't get me wrong, taking a third option can be cool, but don't make such a big deal about the debate, then pull out something that again WAS NEVER FORESHADOWED IN THE LEAST to avoid the whole thing.
3) The reawakening of the Avatar State. While not as bad a deus ex machina as the above, it still comes out of nowhere. Aang's wound gets bumped and...this awakens it. For no apparent reason. I didn't like the Avatar State in Siege of the North, it was a deus ex machina then also, but darn it, it takes TALENT in bad writing to actually make something a deus ex machina twice!
4) Unresolved questions. Why throw in that scene of Zuko asking Ozai about his mother if we were never going to get an answer? I'm not saying we had to learn what happened to her, but why put in a scene REMINDING of us a dangling plot thread if you don't follow through on it?


Good choice. I like the series, and while I don't think the ending was bad, it didn't live up to the expectations I had.


1. During Day of the Black Sun, they could have imprisoned/immobilized Ozai. Once you're in the capital of a hostile nation and they're armed again, they'd probably have liked to have a hostage. The supreme ruler of the nation would have worked rather well, don't you think? With the comet around to empower him, that's not an option.
Also, you can't kill people in a kids' cartoon. They tried to turn this into a plot point instead of ignoring it altogether, and even though it didn't work out perfectly, I think it was a good try.

2. I agree here. Where's the foreshadowing? Even the fan community only found few mentions of lion-turtles (a scroll here, a mention about someone having a big heart there), nothing at all about spirit-bending.

3. Avatar State WAS Deus Ex Machina. That's why they got rid of it for a while.

4. Unresolved questions: I don't mind this as much. In my opinion, it shows that the creators left themselves a way to continue to story some way if they get a chance. Some extra info might come out from alternate Nickelodeon sources, like magazines or their website, or even flash games. Sneaky move, but as I said, at least it isn't any of the important stuff.

Here's a small change I'd like to see acted out:

Combine the lion-turtle, spirit-bending and the return of the Avatar State into one scene. The green glow makes Aang's tattoos glow, implying that he can access the Avatar State again.
Unfortunately, that would have left out whole half of the Aang - Ozai battle, before Aang powered up, and I wouldn't want to remove that. I can only presume that the creators had similar problems, and then run out of time and had to do with what they had.

The only thing I can think of would be "your chakra is blocked because you don't want to kill Ozai", but that'd mean even more lion-turtle, and that's not good. Hmm. Perhaps if the Guru was somewhere close, but that'd be deus ex machina again.

[Boo]

All Disney movies based on Grimm tales. I'd like to see animated versions of the REAL stories. Not these kiddy versions that still managed to capture our hearts to some extent.

[DomaDoma]

Dude - Pathik and that swamp hermit are totally spirit-benders. Why does nobody pick that up??

[endoperez]

Dude - Pathik and that swamp hermit are totally spirit-benders. Why does nobody pick that up??

Because they never forcibly changed anyone any way?

They were spiritual people (but the Avatar world is spiritual) and they had few similar lines (all living things are connected). One taught Aang to find Appa, other helped Appa find Aang. Now that you mention it I do see that some of the things they did could be similar to spiritbending, but I didn't go all "so THAT'S what Pathik did" when I saw the finale. So whatever they are, they aren't proper foreshadowing.

[Arioch]

Dude - Pathik and that swamp hermit are totally spirit-benders. Why does nobody pick that up??

What swamp hermit? I can't remember any swamp hermit. Well, unless you mean the guy who controls plants, and he's a waterbender. It explicitly says so.

[Zweee]

I'd rewrite Titanic but not for the reason most of you might think.

Most people might want to make it so that Jack didn't die but I actually thought that was good thing for the movie. The part I hate is when the old lady drops the diamond in the ocean. What a waste!!!! I know she did it for closure and all that but it seems a bit extreme.

[Berserk Monk]

The Good Son

It's this film starring Macaulay Culkin and Elijah Wood when they were both child stars. Basically, the plot of the film is that they're cousins, and Macaulay Culkin's character is an evil child that kills animals and murder his brother (I think; I wasn't really paying attention to the plot and I may have inferred something different). Basically, I'd change the ending:

The film ends with Macaulay and Elijah's character's on the edge of a cliff, the former's mother holding on to the two. She only has enough strength to pull one up. She lets Macaulay fall to his death, but Elijah lives. I kind of want to see what would have happened if the evil child lived.

[SurlySeraph]

In fact, after about the first 4 Koontz books I read, I started to realize they're all mostly the same half-dozen characters with new names in different situations. Except for one, which reminds me-

Odd Thomas. I wouldn't rewrite it, but I think every sequel thereafter is a greater and greater travesty to the Odd name and should be ignored.

This is why I started to hate Dean Koontz. If it´s going to be another yarn about a former Special Forces guy, an artistic girl who had a bad upbringing, a hyperintelligent golden retriever, and a spider-loving/cannibalistic/sex-hating evil authority figure, can´t he just put a disclaimer on the cover to tell me that before I spend 50 pages figuring it out?

[WinterSolstice]

In regard to the Avatar posts...

The Lion-Turtle's apperance was Deus-Ex-Machina in and of itself. For a series rampant with forshadowing and evidence of an overarching preplanned plotline, 1 episode before the finale seems a little late to reveal "oh yeah, by the way... this anguish you've been going through over killing Ozai.... yeah, you can totally just neuter his bending abilities" lame to the max.

Avatar should have ended with Ozai's death, but it should not have been Aang that caused it directly. Say, they fight each other to a standstill in the rock pillars, Ozai emanates a huge field of fire, with Aang barely shielding himself. The stone pillars all collapse, with Aang attempting to help Ozai, but finding that Ozai still attempts to attack him, even as the stones engulf him. Bad guy's dead. His flames of conquest and rage consumed their source.

[comicshorse]

The ending to 'Gone, Baby, Gone'. Great film but what in the hell was the hero thinking returning the little girl to her mother. Absolutely the worst decision, destroying the lives of 3 ( more-or-less) innocent people and pretty much destroying the girls future.

[Nerd-o-rama]

All Disney movies based on Grimm tales. I'd like to see animated versions of the REAL stories. Not these kiddy versions that still managed to capture our hearts to some extent.Technically, the Brothers Grimm versions of those fairy tales were...well, grimmer and darker than the oral folktales they were based on, which were somewhere between them and the sugarcoatedness of Disney (depending on the tale and the teller in each case, of course.)

As for the Avatar stuff...I think it was good plot points that were rushed, almost as if they didn't think of them until they were writing the finale mini-arc itself - highly unusual for the series, which is why they were so jarring. The way the series finale was released, i.e. all at once, didn't help either.

And the villain getting himself killed while the hero's trying to save him is way too cliché, and already done with Zhao anyway. Next you'll want them to die from falling off a cliff (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisneyVillainDeath).

[WinterSolstice]

Zhao set in motion events that would lead to his death, I'd want Ozai to directly cause his own demise. shoot, it isn't even really imperative that Aang tries to save him.
Soooo many aspects of the show were cliche/archetypical, but they were cliches with a fresh and exciting coat of paint amid a rich and interesting backdrop..... for the most part (Sokka, I'm lookin' at you :smallannoyed:). Archetypes can't really be avoided, and in my opinion, taking archetypical elements and finding ways to make them your own is what separates good writing from poor writing.:smalltongue:

[Fredthefighter]

If I could re-write The Avatar, I would make Aang more edgy and have him actually kill Ozai at the end, then he'd disappear in a gust of wind, never to be seen again.

[hamishspence]

I thought main difference was bowdlerisation and the tales themselves were, in certain ways, even darker than the Grimm ones. Sleeping Beauty being a case in point.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Disney villain deaths aren't an archetype. They're another way of writing around the fact that you can't have kids' show heroes killing people, even when they deserve death.

EDIT: Oh, derr, we were talking about something else. Still, an avowed pacifist finding another way (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeAThirdOption) around killing someone isn't that bad in my eyes. I just kinda wish it had come up in any previous violent context.

[scsimodem]

I can't believe nobody's mentioned Huckleberry Finn. When I first read it, each chapter was better than the one before until my brain was practically having an orgasm over how utterly awesome the book was. Then, it was like a different author wrote the rest of the book. It turns into a cheesy sequel where Tom Sawyer shows up and undoes all of the growing up that Huck Finn did in the rest of the book. It was stupid and every plot point was ground to a screeching halt with the mother of all Deus Ex Machinas ever dreamed of. From what I read, Mark Twain wanted to stop writing the book, but other people demanded he finish it, so he finished it as fast as humanly possible, and the ending of it is like having the emergency brake cord yanked on a bullet train. It's the ultimate 'could have been' book, especially since it's a masterpiece in spite of the last few chapters.

[Boo]

Technically, the Brothers Grimm versions of those fairy tales were...well, grimmer and darker than the oral folktales they were based on, which were somewhere between them and the sugarcoatedness of Disney (depending on the tale and the teller in each case, of course.)

Really? Huh... Well in either case, Disney should remake each story specific to the original material (Grimm). Disney itself isn't all that bad. It's just the people who run it, and their theme park(s).

[EllysW]

Serenity:
Just saw the last bits of it on TV and it's still wrong that Wash dies. I know, I know, Joss'll kill anybody, but it wasn't right with Wash. He's a leaf on the wind, for crying out loud. It did nothing for the movie, for me at least, that he was randomly impaled.

[Phaedra]

I'd rewrite the ending of Jane Eyre. She hears Rochester calling her name in her mind? Really? There had to be a better way of getting her back to him than that...

[Egiam]

I would have made Hancock a graphic novel, and expanded the whole "lost angel" theme.

[JerryMcJerrison]

The Dark Knight:
I would have liked it if it turned out that the two ferries were actually rigged to blow themselves up instead of each other. I like to think that that's what happened, but there wasn't a good way to get it in without derailing the ending too much. It's like a miniature fanfic.

[Staven]

Gurren Lagann (or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann):
I would have let Nia live. The alternate ending I created goes something like this: The Anti-Spiral is defeated and all is well on earth. During the wedding, Nia begins to fade, but instead of letting it happen, Simon pulls out the Core Drill, thrusts it into Nia's chest and turns. The decomposition fades and she is restored. Spiral Power erupts from the drill and creates fireworks in the sky. They waive the epilogue. I would have preferred a cheesy, hollywood ending. It really would have gone along with the theme of the show.

[Eldrys]

@:EllysW Ther was a reason to kill wash 1. They killed him to say " okay we swear we are never ever going to do another Firefly episode/movie/spinoff 2. T set the tone for the rest of the episode 3. to make it so that everyone could say the lin " No, there's already been to much death" but i still love wash he played with dinosaurs

[Bluelantern]

Serenity:
Just saw the last bits of it on TV and it's still wrong that Wash dies. I know, I know, Joss'll kill anybody, but it wasn't right with Wash. He's a leaf on the wind, for crying out loud. It did nothing for the movie, for me at least, that he was randomly impaled.

This and...

Just to note, the film is great, but the death was just... odd. Joss usually knows how to kill a character, I guess my problem is not him dieing, but the way it was done. The Priest death was actually better.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

The Redemption movie:
I'd alter it so that the girl grows up and tells the story of how she jumped she jumped the gun and ruined two lives because she jumped to a conclusion before thinking about the situation rationally. You know, have a moral of the story moment for her fans. I got into a HUGE screaming bout with my brother over this. He said the movie as is was beautiful, I said that the story told wasn't about redemption at all. Just a character trying to make her senile hide feel like she wasn't a total screw up.

Twilight:
I am already writing my own version of Midnight Sun so that the base premise of the plot remains, but it's executed WELL. No more abusive boyfriend being glorified as perfect. No more pedophilia. No more two dimensional characters eating space. No more glitter fairies posing as vamps!

I'll send a link to the finished product, whenever the hades it finally is completed, to anyone who oms me an interest.