Dual wielding hand crossbows

[SurlySeraph]

Yes, I know that dual-wielding is usually suboptimal, and that dual-wielding hand crossbows is not only VERY suboptimal, but also completely ridiculous. And yet... the idea strikes me as so awesome that I just have to try it.

So the question is, how do I do it? I know there's an enchantment somewhere that lets you reload a crossbow as a free action; I'd need that on both crossbows. But beyond that, how would I make the closest thing to a John Woo hero in DnD?

[BRC]

Unless you are sporting a third arm, it's not doable. Rapid Reload would let you reload as a free action, but you need a spare hand to do that.

[Flickerdart]

Thri-keen have 4 hands. Go wild.

This gives me a better idea. Can you have Dancing crossbows?

[BRC]

Thri-keen have 4 hands. Go wild.

This gives me a better idea. Can you have Dancing crossbows?

In that case, you Duel Wield Repeating Heavy Crossbows.

[Doomsy]

I think there is a Warforged thingamajig that lets you fire magical (read: energy, about same damage as regular crossbow bolts) bolts from a device that replaces or mounts on either the forearm or hand. I believe it was infinite ammo. Forgive the vagueness but I really cannot find my Eberron books at all. It was in..Secrets of XendriK? Maybe? I'm sure someone here knows it.

[Inhuman Bot]

The item was in the campaign setting for ebberon.
It could fire 50 bolts, IIRC, a day, or more, but those cost 2 hp a bolt.

[BobVosh]

Insectile is a template that gives u 6 hands...

Why dualweild 2 heavies, when you can have 3?

[Winged One]

There's a +1 weapon special ability in the MIC that lets you stick 50 bolts in a crossbow and load or switch between them(for magical or special material bolts) as a free action. I think it's called quick-loading, but if it's not then just skim through that section of the book until you find it.

[Poison_Fish]

How I got away with it? I carried 10 loaded hand crossbows on me. Fired them and dropped them just to pull out another.

Unfortunately, not to effective in D&D, since crossbows don't do anywhere near the amount of damage they should do (or weapons in general). But with any system, just carry a bunch of loaded xbows on you. Just make sure they don't accidentally go off on you.

[Curmudgeon]

Quick loading alone will not do the trick. The bolts come out automatically, but you still need a free action (and a free hand) to pull back the string. However, quick loading plus self-loading (Arms and Equipment Guide) will work. Self-loading pulls back the string for you. Quick loading is a +1 cost enhancement. Self-loading is a fixed price enhancement: +10,000 gp.

[Winged One]

Quick loading alone will not do the trick. The bolts come out automatically, but you still need a free action (and a free hand) to pull back the string. However, quick loading plus self-loading (Arms and Equipment Guide) will work. Self-loading pulls back the string for you. Quick loading is a +1 cost enhancement. Self-loading is a fixed price enhancement: +10,000 gp.

The MIC just says it's a free(manipulation) action. It doesn't say you can't use the hand you're holding the crossbow with to make it. Unless I remembered it wrong, I suppose.

[Curmudgeon]

The MIC just says it's a free(manipulation) action. It doesn't say you can't use the hand you're holding the crossbow with to make it. Yes, it does say that exactly, on page 220:
[Action Type] (manipulation): Activating this type of item requires some physical manipulation of it, such as moving an immovable rod or pulling a patch from a robe of useful items. This movement is similar to the somatic component of a spell, in that you need a free hand to perform the action.

[holywhippet]

You can do it with repeating crossbows to some extent - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#crossbowRepeating

The character Nordom from Planescape: Torment was dual crossbow wielder. His crossbows were actually gear spirits who would reload themselves by making new crossbow bolts.

[Curmudgeon]

You can do it with repeating crossbows to some extent - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#crossbowRepeating You apparently skipped over this part:
As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). A repeating crossbow still needs a free hand to pull the lever.

[Winged One]

Yes, it does say that exactly, on page 220:

So it does. I think there's a belt that can act as a third hand that's intended for artificers somewhere in the wonderous items section of the MIC. I don't remember the exact cost, but I think it was below the cost of adding self-loading to a crossbow.

[holywhippet]

You apparently skipped over this part: A repeating crossbow still needs a free hand to pull the lever.

That's why I said to some extent. You'd probably need to fire both weapons, then use an action on the next turn to reload them.

Hmm, actually, you could manage it with gloves of storing. Fire both crossbows in one round. Next round, store one crossbow and reload the other. Then store the other one, recall the first one and reload it. Finally, recall the second. Since everything you have done is a free action you can still fire.

[Tonkarz]

Couldn't a 2 handed character use some kind of telekinesis to reload his dual crossbows? Like the 5th level mage spell telekinesis?

[playswithfire]

Spare Hand from the MIC might be helpful. 12,000 gp; waist slot; does just what it sounds like; gives you an extra hand that can carry stuff, like, say a crossbow bolt, or it can pull back the string for you. Combine with a source of infinite or large amount of bolts and have fun

[Grynning]

Are you definitely planning on doing this in a 3.5 game? Because 4th edition supports a John Woo crossbow build quite well with a couple of feats from the FRPG and Martial Power. Drow Rogue or Ranger could both be built to utilize the style and actually be decently optimized (silly as it may be).

[SurlySeraph]

Are you definitely planning on doing this in a 3.5 game? Because 4th edition supports a John Woo crossbow build quite well with a couple of feats from the FRPG and Martial Power. Drow Rogue or Ranger could both be built to utilize the style and actually be decently optimized (silly as it may be).

I was planning on 3.5, but I'd love to know how to do it in 4E. I haven't played 4E yet, but I'm trying to get a sense of the rules.

[Grynning]

Well, in 4th, anything that allows you to attack more than once in a single turn is power based, not feat based, and ranged weapon powers from ranger and rogue often let you make multiple attacks regardless of the weapon(s) used. So, you can dual or single wield hand crossbows and it's equally effective. So, you say, why bother?

Well...

There is a Rogue feat in Martial Power called Two-Fisted Shooter that makes hand crossbows count as an "off-hand" weapon, lets you reload them as a free action, and, whenever you score a critical hit with a hand crossbow in your off hand, you get a free basic attack with it. Pretty neat. And, since 4th ed. works off the Rule of Cool and doesn't worry about how you reload, you can fluff it however you want, it just works. No bullocks about not having a free hand and such.
CORRECTION: I just re-read the rule, it does say you need a free hand to load. However, I'm pretty sure that you could get away with this if you had the Quick Draw feat (Stow one crossbow while you load the other).
FURTHER CORRECTION (wow I fail tonight): Nevermind, Two-Fisted Shooter, the feat I mentioned earlier, fixes that problem. Specifically, it says "you can reload it one-handed as a free action."

There's also a Drow feat in the Forgotten Realms book that ups the damage of the hand crossbow to 1d8 and gives them the High Crit property (deals an extra d6 on a critical, which do not double damage now, just max the normal dice you would roll).

So, a Drow Rogue or Ranger/Rogue Multi-class who selected ranged weapon based powers would fit this concept perfectly. Obviously I've thought about it a bit, I kinda want to use this in a game sometime.

[Curmudgeon]

Spare Hand from the MIC might be helpful. 12,000 gp; waist slot; does just what it sounds like; gives you an extra hand that can carry stuff, like, say a crossbow bolt, or it can pull back the string for you. I don't think that's correct. You can transfer the crossbow to the Spare Hand (free action), pull back the string (whatever type of action that is for you), and transfer the crossbow back to your hand (another free action). If you can pull back the string as a free action, you're good. But the Spare Hand can't pull back a crossbow string.
Without further augmentation from an infusion (see below), a spare hand cannot do anything other than hold an item—it cannot wield a weapon, retrieve a stored item, or perform any other task. Reloading (as opposed to wielding) a weapon isn't on the list of what the item can accomplish with infusions, either.

[KKL]

deals an extra d6 on a critical

Deals an extra weapon dice of damage per tier, so the Drow Crossbow feat would deal 1d8/2d8/3d8 extra damage on a crit at Heroic/Paragon/Epic respectively.

[newbDM]

Another fun option could be to get two fancy crafted crossbows made with ornamental arms, and then have them animated with the Animate Object spell. So now they load themselves, and also function as pets. :smallbiggrin:

[Grynning]

You are correct. The High Crit property is actually 1[w] extra damage per tier as KKL points out.

[playswithfire]

I don't think that's correct. You can transfer the crossbow to the Spare Hand (free action), pull back the string (whatever type of action that is for you), and transfer the crossbow back to your hand (another free action). If you can pull back the string as a free action, you're good. But the Spare Hand can't pull back a crossbow string. Reloading (as opposed to wielding) a weapon isn't on the list of what the item can accomplish with infusions, either.

My bad. I guess I assumed it could/that most DMs would let it given the cost. But with Rapid Reload or any other method of making reloading a hand crossbow a free action, which this build would probably have, it still works, as you said, by transferring the crossbow to the spare hand, reloading and transferring back.

Cooler visual image to have the spare hand pull the string, though.

[Ascension]

it still works, as you said, by transferring the crossbow to the spare hand, reloading and transferring back.

Cooler visual image to have the spare hand pull the string, though.

I dunno, I think juggling two crossbows back and forth between a hand coming out of your belt at lightning-fast speed would be more impressive than just having the third hand do the reloading for you.

[Person_Man]

Be a full BAB build, or as close to it as you can.

Use a light crossbow in each hand. Follow the Two Weapon Fighting feat tree. Enchant one of the crossbows with Speed (and whatever else you can afford). At 11th level you'll get 7 attacks.

Enchant your crossbows with Quick Loading (Magic Item Compendium). Now reloading is a free action.

Enchant your crossbow bolts with the Splitting Enhancement (Champions of Ruin). Now whenever you fire an bolt, it splits into two attacks. So at 11th level, you'll get 14 attacks.

Have a friend cast Greater Magic Weapon on your crossbows, to improve their enhancement bonus.

Have an Unseen Servant reload your crossbows (a simple task that only requires a free action). You can have a friend cast it for you, or there are a few magic items out there somewhere that will give you one. Girrilion's Blessing spell from the Spell Compendium gives you 2 extra arms, which will definitely do it. Or you can be a Thri Kreen, have 4 arms, and use Multi-Weapon Fighting. Or you can buy a Third Hand (Magic Item Compendium). Or you can take levels of Fang of Lolth (3.0 material), which eventually gives 2 extra arms. Or you can take Quick Draw, buy several repeating crossbows (you can keep any number strapped to your body, up to your carrying capacity), fire them until they're empty, and then drop them and draw two more. Very cinematic, though you'll suffer from the fact that you can't enchant the crossbows (unless you're very rich).

Not a great build, but fun to think of.

[Eloel]

The question now would be, can a Thri-Khreen with the spare arm be able to use 4 crossbows, as all reloading is free?

[Choco]

Beg the DM nicely to let you have repeating hand crossbows (Berserk style!)

[Fax Celestis]

Would a Hand of the Mage work here?

[Person_Man]

The question now would be, can a Thri-Khreen with the spare arm be able to use 4 crossbows, as all reloading is free?

Yes, as long as they have the Multiweapon Fighting feat(s). But they'd need a Third Hand or Invisible Servant or whatnot. Otherwise, they could only use 3 crossbows, using the forth hand to reload.

But like optimizing a charge build, its a Pyrrhic victory. The more damage you can deal per round, the more enemies your DM needs to throw at you. You're better off just doing good damage, and then investing in different tactics.

[Coplantor]

This idea intrigued me for a while, I was thinking that maybe you can have your first level as rogue and spend your feat on a CArc feat that gaved you unseen servant as a spell like abilty, You shoot with your two crossbows and the unseen servant reloads them. After that, put levels on fighter for the extra feats and maybe on the whirlwind frenzy barbarian variant to gain extra attacks. This was something I thought of while trying to recreate dante from DMC for D&D.

[ericgrau]

1. quick draw and lots of spare crossbows. But you'll have to give up when time comes to enchant your weapons and higher levels. Not to mention how silly a belt of crossbows will look.

2. Play d20 modern.