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BelorinMoonclaw
2008-12-22, 10:14 PM
My group is planning on starting up a second campaign relatively soon, and since I am a bit rusty with 3.5 (as our first campaign was for 4e), I am in need of a build.

I've heard that rogue/warlock (or warlock/rogue) works relatively well, so I thought i'd give that a try. Any responses and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-23, 12:34 AM
Warlock and Rogue actually don't synergize as well as you might think. Warlock is a great dip class for a rogue looking for some of their extremely useful least invocations and Use Magic Device abilities. Warlocks usually don't dip rogue because they're more interested in advancing their invocation levels and gaining Eldritch Blast damage.

If you want a warlock primary build that plays like a rogue, try adding Uncanny Trickster to a base Warlock. It's especially good if you wait till just after you've taken Hellfire Warlock (from Fiendish Codex II), because the Hellfire damage stacks as a class level, but you can use with any Warlock advancing class. And skill tricks can be a lot of fun in general.

I sound like a broken record, but if what you're after is a stealthy warlock consider a Pixie for your warlock's race. In addition to awesome warlock ability bonuses, they have Greater invisibility as a spell like ability but as a free action. In addition, they have native flight, so it's tough to design traps a pixie would set off, so they make great scouts. Don't rule them out of melee combat, either. Pixies are classed as a small race, so aside from their Strength penalty, they're just as adept as a halfling or gnome would be. Their racial SLA selection is nothing to sneeze at either, with Permanent illusion and polymorph topping the list. The downside is that they have +4 LA, but it might be the only race/class combo that makes it worth being 4 levels behind.

If what you're after is a rogue with Warlock powers, just dip and grab something good. Shatter at will is hilarious, and at low levels Summon Swarm is a real killer. Just your basic Eldritch blast makes a good base to use to make Sneak attacks since it's a touch attack, and can be done from 30 feet away to give sneak attack damage. It doesn't need to have more than 1d6 base damage if all you'll be doing is using it for sneak attacks.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-23, 01:21 AM
One trick is to play a Rogue with Eldritch Blast and a few Invocations. Don't take anything with a saving throw and you won't need to worry about Cha, just get buffs and damage. A decent build goes Rogue 4/ Warlock 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, applying AT spellcasting to your Warlock abilities. You'll need either the feat Spell Hand from Complete Arcane or the race Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone to meet the Mage Hand prerequisite of AT, I'd go with Whisper Gnome. You'll end up with 10d6 sneak attack and 11th level Warlock invocations and eldritch blast, though most of it will be a bit late. You'll want Practiced Spellcaster and Point Blank and Precise Shot. Play the character as a ranged attacker, and with Eldritch Chain you can Sneak Attack several opponents in one shot.

Another idea would be to use Beguiler instead of Rogue and take Eldritch Theurge from Complete Mage. With the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon you'll be able to cast 2nd level spells as a 1st level Beguiler, so you can go something like Beguiler 1/ Warlock 4/ Eldritch Theurge 10. You could even qualify with Beguiler 1/ Warlock 3/ Mindbender 1, if you go Illumian with the Krau sigil and get either the Fey Power or Fiendish Power feat from Complete Mage, though you'll need to use flaws. That way you can take the feat Mindsight from Lords of Madness (page 126) at level 6. Illumians can take the feat Able Learner so you wouldn't be spending twice as many points on cross-class ranks to keep your Beguiler skills up, which would take a second flaw to gain. For this one I'd max Int and Cha with a decent Dex and play him as a brilliant manipulator.

Darrin
2008-12-23, 10:37 AM
I've heard that rogue/warlock (or warlock/rogue) works relatively well, so I thought i'd give that a try. Any responses and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I've always been partial to using Unseen Seer to advance Edritch Blast and Sneak Attack. However, it can be difficult to qualify for... although I understand Beguiler 1/Warlock X is the best, a Rogue/Assassin (or Avenger) dip could also work:

Rogue 1/Warlock 4/Assassin 1/Unseen Seer 3/Hellfire Warlock 3/Unseen Seer +7/Warlock +1

That's +6d6 sneak attack damage and +6d6 hellfire damage on top of a 8d6 Eldritch Blast.

Paul H
2008-12-23, 04:25 PM
Hi

Not sure about Rogue/Warlock, but what about Beguiler/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge?

Sneaky stuff. Spells. Disarm Traps. Eldritch Blast for ranged attacks, Eldritch Essences for everything else. Hope it works because that's my Eberron character. (Changeling Beguiler6/Warlock1). Search+19 (21 is max).

Otherwise just dip into the Warlock for the Least Essences.

Cheers
Paul H

Malacode
2008-12-23, 04:49 PM
@ Biffoniacus_Furiou: I think there's a Least Invocation in Dragon Magic that gets you Mage Hand, I might be wrong (Or I could be thinking of the one that lets you detach your own hand....)

@ OP: Sneaky+Warlock sounds better than it is. I play Warlocks and Sorc's all the time, yet my Sneaky Warlock builds generally suck. Maybe it's because I suck at CharOp, or maybe it's because the two most important abilities of a rogue and a warlock are incompatible. No sneak attack on your EB (Unless you go Hideous Blow... In which case, well). I'm not sure if you can sneak attack Glaive, as it takes a full attack. All of the other Warlock abilites work wonders for rogue, so a one level dip + many copies of the Codex Advocares (One extra Least Invocation per book! Buy three, you've now got a +6 untyped to NINE SKILLS, all of which Rogues love, as a 24hr buff) is a pretty good idea. But if you want to go sneaky caster, stick with Arcane Trickster or the like

Tokiko Mima
2008-12-23, 05:43 PM
@ OP: Sneaky+Warlock sounds better than it is. I play Warlocks and Sorc's all the time, yet my Sneaky Warlock builds generally suck. Maybe it's because I suck at CharOp, or maybe it's because the two most important abilities of a rogue and a warlock are incompatible. No sneak attack on your EB (Unless you go Hideous Blow... In which case, well). I'm not sure if you can sneak attack Glaive, as it takes a full attack. All of the other Warlock abilites work wonders for rogue, so a one level dip + many copies of the Codex Advocares (One extra Least Invocation per book! Buy three, you've now got a +6 untyped to NINE SKILLS, all of which Rogues love, as a 24hr buff) is a pretty good idea. But if you want to go sneaky caster, stick with Arcane Trickster or the like

Huh? :smallconfused:

Sneak Attack and Eldritch Blast work fine together, as long as you stay within Sneak Attacks 30 foot limit for ranged Sneak Attacks. You can sneak attack with spells too, as long as they are Weaponlike Spells, per the rules in Complete Arcane (i.e. the spell deal damages of some kind and requires an attack roll.)

The chief problem with using eldritch Blast as a sneak attack is that you can get disrupted, suffer AoO's, and/or fail a Concentration check if you try to use it while flanking. In addition it makes it difficult to threaten squares if your hands are empty to cast spells.

Also, I'm not sure that multiple Codex Advocare's stack, since they are multiple sources each providing the exact same benefit.

Thurbane
2008-12-23, 06:48 PM
Catfolk are a decent race for a stealthy Warlock (+4 DEX, +2 CHA, 40 foot base speed, +2 to Listen and Move Silently, +1 natural AC). LA +1, however...

Malacode
2008-12-23, 07:06 PM
Hmm... I was under the impression that you can only do Sneak Attack damage with an actual physical weapon... Guess I was wrong

Asheram
2008-12-23, 07:34 PM
Not much for a sneak-attack warlock, but all for a Sneaky warlock.

Changeling Rogue (Changeling racial substitution) 1. Warlock X. Chameleon2

Starting off with 10+int*4 skillpoints and the beloved little classability "social intuition" which gives you take 10 on bluff, diplomacy, gather information, intimidate and sense motive!

Changeling racial +10 disguise (with ranks, mods and bonuses, I had over 20 on level 3.)

I do love my Sneaky ******* Warlocks :smallbiggrin:

And ofcourse, the damage they do once they've grown up a little.

People wonder why I play sneaky characters, I say that it's the only way to survive until higher levels as a spellcaster.
First the friendly talk, then eldritch blast in the back.

Rei_Jin
2008-12-23, 08:16 PM
It really depends on the level you'll be playing at.

IF you can pull it off, a nice combo is

Race: Human
Classes: Ninja2/Monk4/Warlock4/Enlightened Fist10
Feats: Able Learner/Combat Casting/Point Blank Shot/Ascetic Stalker/Precise Shot/Sun School/Quicken SLA: Flee the Scene/Zen Archery

You'll be able to move around like Nightcrawler and blast people, whilst still being a full rogue type class for skills.

Malacode
2008-12-23, 08:37 PM
Why Quicken Flee the Scene? Isn't it just a standard action? No need to quicken it.. Still, I could understand (Escaping from grapple/manacles/similar), but Quicken? Please, do enlighten me

Edit: Oh, right, so you can still blast while hopping around. I getcha

Fostire
2008-12-23, 09:18 PM
I sound like a broken record, but if what you're after is a stealthy warlock consider a Pixie for your warlock's race. In addition to awesome warlock ability bonuses, they have Greater invisibility as a spell like ability but as a free action. In addition, they have native flight, so it's tough to design traps a pixie would set off, so they make great scouts. Don't rule them out of melee combat, either. Pixies are classed as a small race, so aside from their Strength penalty, they're just as adept as a halfling or gnome would be. Their racial SLA selection is nothing to sneeze at either, with Permanent illusion and polymorph topping the list. The downside is that they have +4 LA, but it might be the only race/class combo that makes it worth being 4 levels behind.
Actually, the pixies polymorph ability was errata'd out. But they are still awesome, they have greater invisibility at will which combined with EB and a huge dex bonus means you'll never miss an eldritch blast.
DR, SR, small size, +8 dex, +1 natural armor, and greater invisibility means you have a really good defense too.
Other awesome SLAs are dispel magic, entangle, and permanent illusion.
With DM permission you can also get the pixie special arrows that are really cool since the DC depends on charisma which you can get pretty high.



The chief problem with using eldritch Blast as a sneak attack is that you can get disrupted, suffer AoO's, and/or fail a Concentration check if you try to use it while flanking. In addition it makes it difficult to threaten squares if your hands are empty to cast spells.
That's what eldritch glaive is for :smallwink:

Rei_Jin
2008-12-23, 09:32 PM
Why Quicken Flee the Scene? Isn't it just a standard action? No need to quicken it.. Still, I could understand (Escaping from grapple/manacles/similar), but Quicken? Please, do enlighten me

Edit: Oh, right, so you can still blast while hopping around. I getcha

Well, it's a little more complicated than that. Y'see, with the Sun School feat, you can make a single attack at the end of a Dimension Door or similar ability. If you can Quicken said Dimension Door, then you can make a single attack, and then a full round attack, meaning that you could Stun someone and then pound the everliving snot out of them.

You COULD also use a normal Flee the Scene and hit someone, then use a Quickened one and hit someone else.

It greatly increases your battle maneuverability, as well as your damage output.