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RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-23, 10:43 AM
So I was talking with a friend about Elemental style magic users, specificaly of the arcane variety.
I said that of the 4 elements, fire, cold, electricity, acid that Fire was the most powerfull do to having more feats and what not supporting it...
all the + fire CL feats and PRC's....
I could think of a few
Blood line of fire, There was another one from FR
fireyburst spell
I belive elemental Savant does.
Theres a meta magic feat that does too i think.

I can't realy think of any for the other elements mabye electricity with the storm mage but thats about it?

Any ways any more i can added to my list, or are there feats/prcs/races that could apply to the other elements....


Also what base class would be the best for a blaster... not talking about versitility but strait blaster assuming that 1 i want to be an arcane caster, 2 no warlock/dfa.

Coplantor
2008-12-23, 11:02 AM
Warmage would be the best. They get all the offensive spells and with a good selection of feats you could become an "elementalist"

Copacetic
2008-12-23, 11:04 AM
Warmage would be the best. They get all the offensive spells and with a good selection of feats you could become an "elementalist"

Yes, Warmage gets some goodies.

There is also Pyromancer and Cyromancer if you are intrested in Psionics.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-23, 11:06 AM
Ya i saw the psi ones but they don't add to spell caster level... though an elemental blaster psion would be good too..

Malacode
2008-12-23, 11:09 AM
Fire, strongest? I dunno. There are so many creatures with resistance/immunity to fire that it's not really worth it. Acid, while having fewer spells devoted to it is moer useful. Still overcome regen, but I have a harder time naming creatures with Acid Resistance/Immunity off the top of my head (Other than a good ol' honking great Black Dragon, of course)... Whats more, Acid affects stone, unlike any other energy type. Anything normally devoted to fire + energy substitution (acid) would be good in my book

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-23, 11:11 AM
Fire, strongest? I dunno. There are so many creatures with resistance/immunity to fire that it's not really worth it. Acid, while having fewer spells devoted to it is moer useful. Still overcome regen, but I have a harder time naming creatures with Acid Resistance/Immunity off the top of my head (Other than a good ol' honking great Black Dragon, of course)... Whats more, Acid affects stone, unlike any other energy type. Anything normally devoted to fire + energy substitution (acid) would be good in my book

I agree with you... we where debating the issue, assuming monster immunities didn't count.

Vortling
2008-12-23, 11:14 AM
I agree with you... we where debating the issue, assuming monster immunities didn't count.
That removes a large chunk of the equation from the elemental damage debate which significantly impacts play.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-23, 11:16 AM
That removes a large chunk of the equation from the elemental damage debate which significantly impacts play.

I know it does... I assume that Fire has more support because of the immunities thing.

I was wondering if people could add to the list of things that increase CL of elemental spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-23, 11:17 AM
Warlock, ironically enough, does this very well with Blast Invocations. You can pick up both Cold and Fire blast invocations, as well as acid. For some reason, no lightning based invocation, but I'm sure you could homebrew one quickly.

Heck, you can use Hellfire Warlock to bypass fire immunity, IIRC.

kalt
2008-12-23, 11:18 AM
well besides the fact that you are wrong about fire being the most powerful warmage is the way you will want to go. Artificer/psion will probably nuke the hardest if you can swing it, but a whole lot of stuff is going to be immune to fire as you climb through it so I wouldn't recommend making yourself a one trick pony. I'd tend to favor acid out of the one you listed due to many creatures not being immune to it.

Sorry didn't ready where you said immunities didn't count so ya fire, but how can immunities not count? I kinda figure that is why they made fire so strong in terms of damage output due to resistances and immunities being involved.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-23, 11:26 AM
well besides the fact that you are wrong about fire being the most powerful warmage is the way you will want to go. Artificer/psion will probably nuke the hardest if you can swing it, but a whole lot of stuff is going to be immune to fire as you climb through it so I wouldn't recommend making yourself a one trick pony. I'd tend to favor acid out of the one you listed due to many creatures not being immune to it.

Sorry didn't ready where you said immunities didn't count so ya fire, but how can immunities not count? I kinda figure that is why they made fire so strong in terms of damage output due to resistances and immunities being involved.

a few reasons why.
1. our gm doesn't play with alot of immune creatures... closest thing we had for a long time was a bunch of mages casting varous energy absorbtion spells... whcih our abjurer took care of for us...
2. Typicaly the people who GM in our group have a wierd version of arcane magic that is generaly elemental based with the exception of abjuration and divination magic which there always seems to be one or two floating around in the worlds.
3. most of the gms we play with (including me) perfer the strait forwardness of dmg in combat rather then having to worry about a ton of affects... though a majority of our combats are basicaly dps races the gm's do very well at making them interesting.

Coplantor
2008-12-23, 11:28 AM
You have the energy substitution feats. So instead of fireballs you can cast say... acid balls? And there's the elemental savant PrC. I dont have the books here, neither I remember well that class, but I believe that combining it with warmage should get you a quite strong elemental focused blaster.

Paul H
2008-12-23, 04:18 PM
I know it does... I assume that Fire has more support because of the immunities thing.

I was wondering if people could add to the list of things that increase CL of elemental spells.

Hi

The Reserve Feats from Complete Mage add to the CL for a specific element. Eg. Fiery Burst allows you to cast mini-fireballs at will as long as you have the right spell slot/spell available. Also increases your CL for Fire spells by one.

Don't forget that Acid spells normally don't allow SR either.........

Cheers
Paul H

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-23, 04:23 PM
Hi

The Reserve Feats from Complete Mage add to the CL for a specific element. Eg. Fiery Burst allows you to cast mini-fireballs at will as long as you have the right spell slot/spell available. Also increases your CL for Fire spells by one.

Don't forget that Acid spells normally don't allow SR either.........

Cheers
Paul H

Is that a property of acid descritor or just typicaly acid spells ignore sr?

Like would a fire ball thats been sub-ed to acid bypass SR?

Malacode
2008-12-23, 04:32 PM
No, it's just something a number of Acid spells do. For example, Vitriollic Blast (Warlock invocation, Greater I believe) does Acid damage and bypasses SR

Shpadoinkle
2008-12-23, 04:39 PM
I agree with you... we where debating the issue, assuming monster immunities didn't count.

That's like saying "I could beat the **** out of Mike Tyson, assuming he was hogtied and unconscious."

Curmudgeon
2008-12-23, 06:21 PM
If you're talking about elemental arcane casters, what about the Wu Jen? It's not a bad class; mechanically it's about the same as the Wizard. The problem is that the spell list hasn't been expanded the way other class lists have. Go through all the spells that came out after Complete Arcane and add any reasonable choices to the Wu Jen spell list and you'll be in good shape.

ericgrau
2008-12-23, 08:11 PM
Someone I know played a fire mage (evoker) who went into elemental savant and also archmage for shape spell and energy substitution.

Malacode
2008-12-23, 08:54 PM
Ahh, shape spell. The only reason the Paladin let me use Fireball in melee. Really very useful if you play a controller (Which all Elemental mages will dabble in)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-24, 12:24 AM
In a cold environment a Cold-focused caster is the absolute best, considering all the feats in Frostburn. There's (Greater) Cold Focus, which stacks with (Greater) Spell Focus so you'd get +4 DC and it works in any environment. There's Snowcasting, which gives any spell the cold descriptor or makes an already cold spell cast as though Heightened by one level. Add on Eschew Materials and as-written you don't even need to have snow on hand to use Snowcasting.

Frozen Magic gives you +1 or +2 caster level for any spell with the cold descriptor (every spell with Snowcasting) depending on how cold the environment is. Cold Spell Specialization gives +1 or +2 damage per die to cold spells depending on the temperature, so a Fireball with Snowcasting or Energy Substitution: Cold that's normally 10d6 damage would be 10d6+20 instead.

There's also the metamagic feat Piercing Cold that allows your cold damage spells to ignore cold resistance and still deal half damage to targets immune to cold, or double damage to creatures of the fire subtype instead of the normal +50%. The Frost Mage prestige class grants Piercing Cold for free and makes it also completely ignore immunity to cold granted by spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items.

There's also Beckon the Frozen which gives summoned creatures the cold subtype and +1d6 cold damage with natural weapons. Icy Calling causes summoned creatures native to cold environments and/or with the cold subtype to get +4 Str and Dex and possibly be summoned with max HP depending on how cold the environment is. The Conjure Ice Beast line of spells can summon anything from the Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally list of the same level, but gives it the Ice Beast template turning it into a construct of magical ice with additional cold-based special abilities and often much more difficult to kill. Only Clerics and Druids have access to the Conjure Ice Beast spells, but Frost Mage grants I-IV as spells known for free at levels 3-9 to arcane casters.

Get your opponents immersed in cold water somehow, and the DCs of any Fortitude saves to resist a cold-based effect is increased by 10 until they and their clothing becomes dry (Frostburn page 10). With Snowcasting that means any Fortitude-save spell gets +10 DC against them, so Flesh to Stone (or Flesh to Ice from Frostburn) is almost guaranteed to succeed, even if you use Chain Spell with it. A while back someone was asking for advice on a white dragon's lair, he needed a water-based encounter for when they were swimming through a flooded tunnel in its glacial home and some tactics for the dragon itself. I suggested a Cryohydra for the tunnel and Snowcasting + Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell + Fort save spells for the dragon due to the +10 DC cheese. He really liked the Hydra idea and that it uses Flesh to Ice and has a lot of ice statues of defeated adventurers. Sadly enough the Decanter of Endless Water trick to just get an opponent wet isn't enough to get the +10 DC, since they have to be immersed in cold water.

There are also specific cold-themed spells that are just unbelievably good. Snowsight (1st level) allows you to see through snowstorm conditions unhindered for 1 hr/level. Obscuring Snow (2nd level) creates a 30' radius of swirling snowflakes that travels with you for 1 hr/level, granting concealment within 5' and total concealment any further than 5', though Snowsight will see right through it. That's an unbeatable total concealment to anything that's not adjacent to you unless it can somehow see through a snowstorm. Then there's Shivering Touch which was badly misprinted to be completely broken. It has a duration of 1 round/level, no saving throw, and deals 3d6 Dex damage. Just like HP damage, ability damage doesn't go away at the end of the spell's duration, so that means 3d6 Dex damage until it's healed by rest or a spell that heals ability damage. Since the spell lasts 1 round/level and its effect is instantaneous, the spell itself can be delivered for the entire duration, so you can attack with a melee touch for 3d6 Dex damage per hit for 1 round/level. A Lesser Rod of Maximize makes it automatically deal 18 Dex damage. Anything reduced to Dex 0 is disabled and helpless, so most creatures will go down in just one hit from this including dragons. Only creatures with the cold subtype are immune, otherwise it's a one-hit-win. As-intended, the spell should probably discharge after one hit and the Dex damage should only last until the end of its duration. Plus the Chilblain in the monsters chapter has that as a spell-like ability with a save DC listed, so there should probably be a Fort half or negate instead of none for the save entry. Maximized Shivering Touch in a Spell Storing weapon FTW.

Paul H
2008-12-24, 07:15 AM
Hi

Yes - but wouldn't creatures based in a cold themed campaign have some sort of Cold Resistance, even Immunity? Makes the last thread a bit pointless.

Wu Jen is OK, even has some Elemental Mastery stuff, but I reckon it's always better to have a mix of elements. What's the point of being an Elemental Savant (Fire) facing off a Red Dragon? All your elemental spells are auto converted into fire, and fire resistance isn't going to help when you're ripped to shreds. At least a Warmage says fine - Coldshield up, fire away with Lssr Cold Orbs.

Still think Warmage is best Elementalist - lots of spells from all elements, free 'Sudden' feats, D6 HP, Lt Armour, Simple Wpns, etc etc. Nothing like casting Flame Arrow on the Scout's arrows for extra D6+Edge Fire damage, or casting Whirling Blade & Blades of Fire to attack everything in 60' line with a Flaming Wpn! :smallbiggrin:

Cheers
Paul H

Seffbasilisk
2008-12-24, 07:23 AM
I'd actually go Sorcerer, or Wu Jen.

Wu Jen can get the biggest boost to thier CL, but Sorcerers don't have to prepare, so can always be ready for fire (or cold, or acid, etc) immune creatures.

olentu
2008-12-24, 08:02 AM
Well there is the searing spell metamagic from sandstorm that allows fire spells to ignore resistance immune creatures still take half and deals double damage to creatures of the cold subtype.

This is basically piercing cold but with one major difference piercing cold says that "Creatures with the cold subtype can tell that a piercing cold spell is colder than normal, but they remain undamaged by the attack" while searing spell does not have similar wording.