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The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-12-23, 05:03 PM
Hello all,

I'm currently playing a NG male half-elf druid 4, and I'm looking ahead to what prestige class I'd like to take when the time comes. I'd like something that lets me keep both spellcasting and wildshape, but if I have to give up one it's going to be the latter. Something that advances my heavy horse animal companion would be nice too, since he's the best fighter in the party right now (better, in fact that our actual fighter.) I'm currently serving as a controller/healer. I've taken Spontaneous Healer (CDiv?) so that I don't have to dedicate any of my spells to the varios cures, but still have them available if I need them. I know all about Natural Spell and how much it rocks, so that's slated for my L6 feat.

So, do any of you fine folks have any suggestions for a good PrC? Do I even need a PrC? Secondarily, is Augment Summoning a worthwhil feat to pick up?

Blue

Malacode
2008-12-23, 05:11 PM
Well... You could try Fist of the Forest (Checks pre-reqs). Yeah, druids can get into that without too much fuss (Unless you're worried about wasting a feat on Great Fortitude or Improved Unarmed Strike, not typical druid feats). It basically would make you a better fighter than you already are. Not so great on the healer/controller front though, but you do get a nice AC bonus and a rage-like ability which I'm sure you could use while Wildshaped (moves your unarmed/natural weapon damage up one step, say from 1d10 to 2d6). It's a three level PrC, so you neednt worry about losing too many Druid features. Honestly, it's really only worth it if you want to play as a front line fighter. If you wanna stick to what you've got going already, then do just that. Stick with Druid

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-23, 05:37 PM
Hello all,

I'm currently playing a NG male half-elf druid 4, and I'm looking ahead to what prestige class I'd like to take when the time comes. I'd like something that lets me keep both spellcasting and wildshape, but if I have to give up one it's going to be the latter. Something that advances my heavy horse animal companion would be nice too, since he's the best fighter in the party right now (better, in fact that our actual fighter.) I'm currently serving as a controller/healer. I've taken Spontaneous Healer (CDiv?) so that I don't have to dedicate any of my spells to the varios cures, but still have them available if I need them. I know all about Natural Spell and how much it rocks, so that's slated for my L6 feat.

So, do any of you fine folks have any suggestions for a good PrC? Do I even need a PrC? Secondarily, is Augment Summoning a worthwhil feat to pick up?

Blue
The best PrC for Druid is... Druid (unless you want to get into Planar Shepherd abuse, which I don't suggest).

No, Augment Summoning is not a good feat. 1) worthless prerequsite feat, 2) not really all that significant a bonus, and 3) Doesn't sound like you're summoning things all that frequently.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2008-12-23, 05:54 PM
The best PrC for Druid is... Druid (unless you want to get into Planar Shepherd abuse, which I don't suggest).

No, Augment Summoning is not a good feat. 1) worthless prerequsite feat, 2) not really all that significant a bonus, and 3) Doesn't sound like you're summoning things all that frequently.

I'd like to be summoning, but currently I'm using a lot of my spells to keep my fellow PCs upright. :smallyuk: Sounds like Augment Summoning isn't any good anyway, so I'll avoid it. Thanks.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-12-23, 05:58 PM
Really? I've always found Augment Summoning quite good (that's the +4 to STR and CON, right?).
Anyways, if I ever have questions on druids play-wise, I personally like to come here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=733400)

Innis Cabal
2008-12-23, 06:01 PM
Planer Shepard is...disgusting. But if you don't try to outright cheese it its a fun PrC

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-23, 06:05 PM
I'd like to be summoning, but currently I'm using a lot of my spells to keep my fellow PCs upright. :smallyuk: Sounds like Augment Summoning isn't any good anyway, so I'll avoid it. Thanks.

Yea, +4 to Con and Str really isn't worth it for critters that are just going to be around for 1rd/lv. Net effect is +2 damage and +2 HP/HD. Likely, they're either 1) speedbumps, so extra hps isn't going to do them any good, 2) flanking pets for rogues to sneak attack with, so extra hps isn't going to be doing them any good, or 3) you're really wanting super pets, so you drop down something like Enlarge Animal or Greater Magic Fang on them.

At the price of two feats, not worth it.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-23, 06:08 PM
Yea, +4 to Con and Str really isn't worth it for critters that are just going to be around for 1rd/lv. Net effect is +2 damage and +2 HP/HD. Likely, they're either 1) speedbumps, so extra hps isn't going to do them any good, 2) flanking pets for rogues to sneak attack with, so extra hps isn't going to be doing them any good, or 3) you're really wanting super pets, so you drop down something like Enlarge Animal or Greater Magic Fang on them.

At the price of two feats, not worth it.

It starts becoming worth it if you, say, manage to pick up the Summoner domain (free Extend on summon spells), and then also grab the Imbue Summoning feat (cast a touch-range spell on a creature you're summoning as part of the summon action).

But at that point, you're more of a zookeeper than anything.

monty
2008-12-23, 06:13 PM
To be honest, I never found very many useful feats for druids unless you're picking up prerequisites for a prestige class. You may as well get Augment Summoning if you can't come up with anything better.

Bayar
2008-12-23, 06:25 PM
Go with Planar Shepherd and pretend you dont know what you are doing. I found that this tactic is one way to nerf the druid (the other is banning the PrC).

Temp.
2008-12-23, 06:43 PM
If you don't have anything you specifically want to get out of a PrC and you don't have anything you'd want to lose from the Druid class, you should probably just stick with straight Druid. If you want to break the mold, your best bet (beside the Shepherd) is probably going to be tweaking the class with alternate class features.

Druid class features (cut-and-pasted from Dead Weasel's list (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14607522)):
Aquatic Druid: (SW, p 50): Choose an aquatic animal companion.

City-Shape (CS, web): Smaller wild shapes, but gain the ability to change into vermin.

City-Soul (CS, web): Lose the ability to wild shape into an elemental, turn into animated objects instead.

Crowd-Walker (CS, web): Exchange woodland stride for the ability to move in crowds more easily.

Deadly Hunter (UA, p 58): Gain bonus to AC when unarmored and fast movement (as monk). Gain favored enemy, track, and swift tracker as a ranger. Lose armor and shield proficiency and wild shape.

Aspect of the Dragon (DrM, p 11): You don't gain wildshape. Instead take on various aspects of dragons.

Drow Druid (DU, p58): Wildshape into a monstrous spider instead of animals.

Druidic Avenger (UA, p 51): no animal companion or spontaneous casting, penalty to wild empathy. Gain fast movement and rage.

Elemental Companion (CM, p 33): Gain an Elemental as a companion instead of an animal.

Go to Ground (CS, web): Lose trackless step, gain the ability to hide from Urban Tracking.

Halfling Druid Substitution Levels (RW, p 157) add climb, jump, move silently, and hide to skill list (6 skills points per level)
1st level: Spontaneous Casting (Special list of spontaneous spells), Enhanced Link (bonus to ride animal companion)
5th level: Undersized Wildshape (wildshape limited to smaller forms, usable more times per day)
13th level: Camouflage ability, lose thousand faces

Half-Orc Druid Substitution Level (RD, 159): d10 hitdice, add intimidation as class skill.
1st level: Tough Animal Companion (companion gains toughness)
4th level: Bully Animal (use Str instead of Cha for wild empathy), lose resist nature's lure
6th level: Augmented Nature's Allies (+4 Str/Con on SNA's), lose one wildshape/day

Heat Endurance (SSt, p 47): Gain Heat Endurance, lose resist nature's lure.

Iron Constitution (CS, web): Lose resist nature's lure. Gain the strong stomach feat, and +2 bonus to saves against disease.

Fangshields Druid Substitution Levels (CV, p 40): must be nonhumanoid
4th level: Spontaneous Curing, replaces resist nature's lure
5th level: Wild Shape Hands (form hands while wildshaping)
7th level: Wild Shape (Humanoid), lose 1 use of wild shape

Goliath Druid Substitution Levels (RS, p 151)
1st level: Elemental Bond (better earth summons, can't summon other elements)
6th level: Earth Companion (animal companion gains earth-type and some stat changes
12th level: Earth Wild Shape (change into an earth elemental instead of plant)

Phynxkin Companion (DrM, p 13): Gain a phynxkin instead of your normal animal companion.

Planar Druid (PlH, p 31): gain knowledge: the planes as class skill
4th level: Resist Planar Might (+2 bonus to saves to resist spell-like abilities of outsiders), lose resist nature's lure
9th level: Planar Tolerance (become attuned to planes), lose venom immunity
13th level: Counter Summoning (counter summon monster spells), lose thousand faces

Root Walker (DS, p 9): Lose woodland stride, resist nature's lure, and wild empathy. Gain wild empathy towards vermin, move over earth, stone, and rock debris and +4 bonus on saving throws against spell like abilities of abberations.

Sandskimmer (SSt, p 47): Gain Sandskimmer, lose woodland stride.

Shapeshifter (PHB 2, p 39): Lose animal companion and wildshape. Gain the ability to change into several forms, with set bonuses, at will.

Shifter Druid Substitution Levels (RE, p 126): add balance, climb, and jump to class skills
1st level: Beast Spirit (grants powers and abilities as level increase), replaces animal companion
4th level: Reckless Nature (+2 initiative checks and reflex saves, -2 to will saves), replaces resist nature's lure
5th level: Wild Shifting (can use racial shifting an extra time per day, and add wisdom bonus to duration. At 8th level claws are treated as one size larger, at 15th level they are treated as two sizes larger. Gain additional uses each time you would gain more uses of wildshape.), replaces normal wildshape ability. At 16th level, gain the ability to change into an elemental as normal.

Spontaneous Affliction (EoE, p 21): lose ability to spontaneous SNA, gain ability to sicken humanoids.

Spontaneous Rejuvenation (PHB 2, p 39): Lose spontaneous SNA spells. Gain the ability to sacrifice spells to give allies fast healing.

Urban Companion (CS, web): Instead of a normal animal companion, instead gain something similar to a familiar.

Urban Sense (CS, web): Lose nature's sense, gain a +2 bonus to sense motive and knowledge: local checks.

Voice of the City (CS, web): Lose wild empathy to gain the ability to communicate with people who speak languages you do not know.

Waste Vermin Wildshape (SSt, p 47): Wildshape into a wasteland vermin, lose 1 wildshape/day.



And, to respond to your request (Druid classes that advance everything Druid-y), here are some other classes:
Abolisher from Lords of Magic advances 8/10 spellcasting, 10/10 Companion and gives 3 extra Wild Shape uses. The class is focused on Aberration-killing.
Nature's Warrior in Complete Warrior advances 2/5 spellcasting and full Companion/Wild shape, iirc. It's a full BAB melee combat class, if that interests you at all.
Wavekeeper in Stormwrack advances 9/10 casting, 10/10 companion and gives some Wild Shape-like abilities that allow you to transform into a Water Elemental.

There might be a Vermin-related one in BoVD too, but I don't know what happened to that file.

...And Legacy Champion, Uncanny Trickster and Bloodlines, but those can be used for any class.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-23, 06:44 PM
You really want the Greenbound Summoning feat (Lost Empires of Faerūn page 8). That really amps up anything you summon with Summon Nature's Ally.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-23, 06:59 PM
You really want the Greenbound Summoning feat (Lost Empires of Faerūn page 8). That really amps up anything you summon with Summon Nature's Ally.

Until around level 12, when Elementals start out-pacing animals, even with the Greenbound template. Still very nasty at low levels, but at higher levels, not as useful, and since you've already got all of your feats until 9th level already taken, probably not worth it.

olentu
2008-12-23, 07:07 PM
Until around level 12, when Elementals start out-pacing animals, even with the Greenbound template. Still very nasty at low levels, but at higher levels, not as useful, and since you've already got all of your feats until 9th level already taken, probably not worth it.

That would be when one would want to see if they could get Rashemi Elemental Summoning.

Epinephrine
2008-12-23, 08:23 PM
Back to the OP - there aren't many druid PrCs that advance your wildshape/AC. Depends really what you are looking for.


The Arcane Hierophant (RotW) is an interesting class, blending arcane magic and druidic magic, and it can progress both the animal companion and wildshape.

My druid is becoming a Wintergaunt of Iborighu (Frostburn), for example - though it's slightly rewritten, since he's part of the winter faerie court, so the last 2 levels are a little different, developing the Fey type rather than the elemental type. Doesn't advance wildshape or animal companion though, but really suits him.

PrCs aren't needed though, druids have pretty much everything they could want.

Darrin
2008-12-24, 12:19 AM
At the price of two feats, not worth it.

You can pick up Augment Summoning for only one feat by taking Planar Touchstone (need 8 ranks of Knowledge: the Planes, so try the planar druid variant) and linking to the Catalogues of Enlightenment. Take the Cult of the Dragon Below domain power, which grants you Augment Summoning without having to blow a feat on Spell Focus: Conjuration.

And it may be worth it if you are summoning creatures with special attack DCs based on Strength or Constitution.

As far as PrCs... it's hard to find anything more effective than just straight druid, but if you want to enhance wildshape... Warshaper or Master of Many Forms. This dings up your animal companion progression, but I think a dip into Beastmaster or use the Natural Bond feat (CompAdv) to add +3 to your druid levels for buffing your animal companion abilities.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-24, 01:06 AM
If you're dead-set on taking a prestige class, I like Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Heirophant, though it takes racial weapon proficiencies to get into SA that you don't have. Seeker of the Misty Isle from Complete Divine is good for just one level to get the Travel domain and weapon proficiencies. Simply put, most Druid X/ PrC Y builds out there are inferior to going Druid 20, so most advice on what prestige class to pick is not going to be good advice.

For feats, the only open feats for a Druid are at 1st level and 9th+. Every Druid should have Natural Spell at level 6. Every Druid should get Natural Bond at 3rd and get a Level -3 animal companion at 4th, since Natural Bond will negate the penalty so you'd still count your entire Druid level. You could instead move Natural Bond to 1st to pick a 3rd level feat that can't be taken at 1st, such as Magic of the Land (RotW). The standard 1st level feats are Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning for a Human, or Companion Spellbond otherwise. Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple are also good to pick up at 1st level (as a Human) since many Wild Shape forms have Improved Grab. Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative are good choices that stay useful through the higher levels if you don't want Companion Spellbond. There are also some feat-based tricks like getting Aberration Blood and Aberration Wild Shape from Lords of Madness, and either Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species or Metamorphic Transfer from XPH (using a racial psi-like ability to qualify), which can then Wild Shape into a Beholder and use the eye rays at will. By the time a Druid hits 9th level he's one of the most powerful characters in the game, so you can spend the rest of your feats on Toughness and Skill Focus and still be amazing. Decent choices include Quicken Spell, Power Attack/Leap Attack, item creation feats, Spontaneous Healer, Magic of the Land, etc.

Devils_Advocate
2008-12-24, 03:50 AM
Do I even need a PrC?
No. No, you do not.

Straight Druid is plenty strong and does a lot. Most casters need to grab PrCs to get full spellcasting plus overpowered class features, but the Druid has both all by itself. It's... really pretty astounding.

You can specialize a druid in a given direction with a PrC, should you so desire, but you don't need to.

Leon
2008-12-24, 04:40 AM
Do I even need a PrC?

Only if it suits what you think of needing for your idea of what the Character is going to be like.

Don't let the Optimal Bug bite and bleed out the Character potential.



For feats, the only open feats for a Druid are at 1st level and 9th+. Every Druid should have Natural Spell at level 6. Every Druid should get Natural Bond at 3rd and get a Level -3 animal companion at 4th,

For Every Character all feats should be open feats, its the Common Template for the Nature Bond/Natural Spell but given the number of feats in the varied array of Books anything is possible.

Every Druid I've played or thought about playing hasn't Had Natural Spell, quite a few of them have Wildshape removed for something else.

same with the QQ over losing a spell level or two. if it suits your Concept for what you think the Character would be like dont be held back my such things.

My Archivist has just gained 2 levels of barbarian. I could have chosen 2 levels of Archivist but given what that PC has just been through the barbarian lvls are reminder of the Primal creature that had been in his Body & Soul for the pas few levels and was forcibly separated from leaving distinct marks of its former occupation, 2 levels of Archivist would be boring.
That and i took the running joke about my PC to the next level from it (Conan the Librarian)

kalt
2008-12-24, 09:08 AM
Druid 20 is incredibly potent all by itself and will be playable from 1-20 without a pristiege class. In terms of augment summoning if you have the prereq sf:conj then yes summoning stuff tends to be good for a druid and that feat helps a bunch. What books are available to pick your prestige class from is probably the biggest question?

ohh as a side note the feats fel drain and fel weaken are incredibly nasty.

serok42
2009-02-20, 07:18 AM
Hello all,

I'm currently playing a NG male half-elf druid 4, and I'm looking ahead to what prestige class I'd like to take when the time comes. I'd like something that lets me keep both spellcasting and wildshape, but if I have to give up one it's going to be the latter. Something that advances my heavy horse animal companion would be nice too, since he's the best fighter in the party right now (better, in fact that our actual fighter.) I'm currently serving as a controller/healer. I've taken Spontaneous Healer (CDiv?) so that I don't have to dedicate any of my spells to the varios cures, but still have them available if I need them. I know all about Natural Spell and how much it rocks, so that's slated for my L6 feat.

So, do any of you fine folks have any suggestions for a good PrC? Do I even need a PrC? Secondarily, is Augment Summoning a worthwhil feat to pick up?

Blue

There really are not any good Druid Prestige classes for druids that want to focus on spell casting (shape shifting druids are another story all together :smallbiggrin:)

Unless you want to go Exalted then the Book of Exalted deeds have a few good druid PrCs that I can't think of the name of off the top of my head. Lion of Talasid perhaps? It has been awhile since I have cracked open that book.

Saph
2009-02-20, 07:27 AM
Augment Summoning is definitely worth it, but only if you cast a lot of summon spells. That said, I'd recommend giving it a try - Druids are possibly the best summoners in the game, and the level 2/3/4 Summon Nature's Ally spells have some nice stuff.

- Saph

Aquillion
2009-02-20, 07:44 AM
So, do any of you fine folks have any suggestions for a good PrC? Do I even need a PrC?You definitely don't. Druids are one of the few classes (possibly the only one) who don't necessarily benefit from PRCs -- in fact, I can't think of a single PRC that simply makes a druid all-around better. If you want to focus on one aspect of the druid, go ahead and enter a PRC that helps with that (since druids are so powerful, it's all right if you lose a bit by entering a PRC.) But you definitely don't have to feel "OMG I gotta enter a PRC at 5th level or I'm unoptimal!" like it often is with fighters, wizards, etc.

Mostly, the reason is because druids have so many class features. It's easy enough for the wizard or cleric to find a PRC that grants full casting, for the fighter to find a PRC that grants full BAB, or for the rogue to find a PRC that continues Sneak Attack + skills, but nobody is going to make a PRC that continues all of Wild Shape, Companion, and Casting, so you'll usually have to give up some or all continuation of one (or even all) to enter a PRC. From an optimization standpoint very few PRCs are worth it.

This is particularly true for Druids, as the only really good summoner PRC that comes to mind (Malconvolker) doesn't work for them, since they summon neutral creatures and Malconvolker requires evil creatures. Actually, I'm a bit surprised there's no proper, specific PRC for druids that want to focus heavily on SNA...

Leon
2009-02-20, 08:31 AM
Only Instance I've found where Augment Summoning is utterly useless is for a Master of the Shroud, it may be useful before you enter the PrC but once your in it the focus of the class doesn't use Str or Con

monty
2009-02-20, 01:19 PM
Unless you're going for Planar Shepherd, which is likely to get you smacked by the DM, straight druid is probably your best bet in terms of power.

Starscream
2009-02-20, 03:40 PM
I've always liked Augment Summoning. Not only are the bonuses decent, but it's a prereq for pretty much every other good summoning feat. The only downer is needing the useless "Spell Focus: Conjuration". But druids don't need that many feats, so it's worth the price if you want to be a good summoner.

Keld Denar
2009-02-20, 04:19 PM
Actually, if you are using Spell Compendium, there are some pretty nice blasty spells in Conjouration that benefit from SF: Conjouration. Arc of Lightning and Blast of Flame are both on the Druid list, IIRC. Granted, blasting isn't the most economical use of resources, but at least its there.

wadledo
2009-02-20, 04:25 PM
The only "good" PrC's I've seen for Druids seem to be the Skypleged and the Moon Speaker, both race inclusive PrCs.
And the Skypleged is nearly always a cleric, anyway.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-20, 04:32 PM
Short of taking Planar Shepherd, you won't get anything more potent than simply Druid 20. If you're going to be healing, remember for the later levels that you have friends (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) that do the job a lot better than anything you can whip up until Heal comes around.

nightwyrm
2009-02-20, 04:48 PM
I agree with many other posters that the best class to take after druid is more druid. Druid20 is perfectly respectable and likely to be more powerful than many class/PrC combinations.

As for augmented summoning, I find that it's quite useful, especially if you're restricted to core. In any case, it's not like druids need a bunch of specific feats to be good. After natural spell, everything else is just gravy.

Bosh
2009-02-20, 05:01 PM
Also if you're spending much time at all in combat healing people somebody's doing something wrong, what you should do is:

A. Heal everyone up to full during downtime, preferably with cure light wound wands.
B. Scout out where the enemy is so you can get a drop on him.
C. Summon a few summoned critters before the fight starts and swarm the enemy, even the weakest summoned critters are useful for gumming up the battlefield and doing aid other (having a swarm of monkeys doing aid other on a power attacking fighter can be great fun).
D. Kill the enemy fast with any means necessary so you don't have to bother with healing.
E. Remember that any heal that doesn't keep a PC from going unconscious is a wasted action that did nothing useful.