PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] What Would You Do With Him? (Help Me) (Optimization Challenge?)



LordZarth
2008-12-24, 01:25 PM
EDIT: Starting to rebuild. New help welcomed but not needed.

EDIT: 2nd Page, new question--Dragonfire Inspiration and Inspire Courage

Alright, so I have a character that I consider very fun to play.
He's good. But he also kind of sucks in some ways.


Heian 'Badger' Daergel, Half-Gnome (Homebrew) Level 4 Bard

STR 5 (the problem), DEX 13, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 11, CHA 18

Half-Gnome (Elf/Gnome) traits:
* EDIT: Small Size
* Half-Gnomes treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons (as Gnomes)
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. (as Gnomes)
* Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells (as Gnomes)
* +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (as Gnomes)
* +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (as Gnomes)
* +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. (as Gnomes, as Elves)
* +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. (as Gnomes)
* Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals, dancing lights, ghost sound, OR prestidigitation. (modified Gnomes)
* Favored Class: Bard. (as Gnomes)
* Immunity to sleep spells, +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells (as Elves)
* +1 racial bonus Search and Spot checks. (as Half-Elves)
* +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks (as Half-Elves)
* Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf. (as Half-Elves)

WWYD? Obviously, 18 CHA is an asset, and this little guy is the unacknowledged, unofficial, yet de facto party leader, as well as party spokesman. He makes most of the plans and such, and is pretty cool.

But--fights? I mean, I can help the party with music, but I think that I should have some form of attack. With 5 STR, melee seems to be right out (to me. I'm not very experienced) but ranged also takes a penalty (I think).

What should I do, combatwise? Should I multiclass? Should I buy items? Should I [fill in]?

I'm really not very experienced at D&D at all. So-advise ANYTHING. Even if I just ruled it out.

Thanks.

EDIT: VIRTUALLY ANY SOURCE

kamikasei
2008-12-24, 01:32 PM
I assume you've been playing the guy already, so there are limits on what you can change. How much rebuilding can you do, and what exactly have you currently got in the way of feats, skills, gear etc.?

What sources are available to you?

There's a feat in Frostburn that lets you add your charisma bonus to damage rolls, but that -3 strength penalty is going to hurt your to-hit. You could just go with staying invisible through a fight, using illusions and music to buff your allies and shape the combat.

AmberVael
2008-12-24, 01:32 PM
Well, while bows and thrown weapons would suffer from lower strength, a crossbow does not, and uses your dexterity bonus to attack. Will you be amazing? No, but it IS a weapon you can use.

You attack bonus would be +5 [+3 (bab) +1 (dex) +1 (size)]
Depending on whether you used a light or heavy crossbow, you'd either deal 1d8 or 1d10 damage each shot. Nothing spectacular, but hey, it works.

The other thing you've overlooked is spells. You're not going to be as great as the wizard or cleric, but a well placed illusion, charm, or other handy Bard spell will definitely contribute to combat.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 01:36 PM
I assume you've been playing the guy already, so there are limits on what you can change. How much rebuilding can you do, and what exactly have you currently got in the way of feats, skills, gear etc.?

Mmm. Well, suggest anything--long-term is good too--as this game is fairly casual. As for skills, off the top of my head I've maxed Diplomacy and Perform. I have both synergies to Diplomacy. Rebuilding will probably work. Especially, level 4 can be ENTIRELY rebuilt, as we're leveling between sessions.



What sources are available to you?

There's a feat in Frostburn that lets you add your charisma bonus to damage rolls, but that -3 strength penalty is going to hurt your to-hit. You could just go with staying invisible through a fight, using illusions and music to buff your allies and shape the combat.

Basically any source.

Frostburn? I'll take a look, thanks. What's it called?

Invisible, illusions, buffing? Ok. Should I multiclass to another caster class?

Prometheus
2008-12-24, 01:37 PM
Using either ranged attacks or magic are ways to "attack" without actually using Str. Since you are a level 4 bard, you'll get spells along the way and if you need to attack, use a wand or a bow.

You may have discovered a problem with carrying all that you wish to carry. Invest in a bag of holding/handy haversack as soon as you have the opportunity to do so. In the meantime, maybe you can have a Wizard friend cast Tensor's Floating Disk to carry the stuff around when needed.

These boards can tell you how to optimize any class to make it the most powerful it can be. I'm not sure how much of that kind of thing you are really interested in, but if you are, than the thread will need to know what books your character is allowed to draw from for feats/spells/prestige classes. I'm not really good at that kind of stuff, so I'll rely on someone else to take it from here.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 01:38 PM
Well, while bows and thrown weapons would suffer from lower strength, a crossbow does not, and uses your dexterity bonus to attack. Will you be amazing? No, but it IS a weapon you can use.
I'll take a look.



You attack bonus would be +5 [+3 (bab) +1 (dex) +1 (size)]
Depending on whether you used a light or heavy crossbow, you'd either deal 1d8 or 1d10 damage each shot. Nothing spectacular, but hey, it works.


I am small, yes. Forgot to mention.


The other thing you've overlooked is spells. You're not going to be as great as the wizard or cleric, but a well placed illusion, charm, or other handy Bard spell will definitely contribute to combat.

Any suggestions? Sources immaterial.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 01:41 PM
Using either ranged attacks or magic are ways to "attack" without actually using Str. Since you are a level 4 bard, you'll get spells along the way and if you need to attack, use a wand or a bow.
I'm fairly certain that most bows do take a STR penalty. Crossbows were mentioned, though. What spells do you recommend?



You may have discovered a problem with carrying all that you wish to carry. Invest in a bag of holding/handy haversack as soon as you have the opportunity to do so. In the meantime, maybe you can have a Wizard friend cast Tensor's Floating Disk to carry the stuff around when needed.

God, yes. 12lb as a light load. Thank you so much! I never thought of a bag of holding/handy haversack! I've been using my dwarf friend to carry some stuff, but it's very annoying, and doesn't work in battle.



These boards can tell you how to optimize any class to make it the most powerful it can be. I'm not sure how much of that kind of thing you are really interested in, but if you are, than the thread will need to know what books your character is allowed to draw from for feats/spells/prestige classes. I'm not really good at that kind of stuff, so I'll rely on someone else to take it from here.
I would be interested in that. I might not use it all, but it would be probably very useful. Again, sources immaterial.

AmberVael
2008-12-24, 01:42 PM
Well, Sleep is a great spell. If you're the type who can think the right way, Silent Image is really good (though this also depends on the DM. I saw someone who got away with blindfolding entire parties with a single Silent Image spell, and I found that horribly questionable). Grease can be used to control the battlefield, but it has to be used in the right situations.
Glitterdust is very useful.

Eldariel
2008-12-24, 01:48 PM
Well, with those stats, I'd go with Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings] and Haunting Melody [Eberron Campaign Settings] to get the most out of your songs. Out of singing, your spells are indeed solid, and a Bow of some variety would allow you to do something with your excess actions when not singing or casting.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-24, 01:52 PM
Honestly, this is not a bad character build, although the not-stellar Dex prevents it from being truly awsome.

My suggestion: Why bother with attacking? Here's what I'd do:

1: Start picking up spells that are buffs

2) Look up War Weaver from Heroes of Battle

3) When you qualify, take all 5 levels of War Weaver, and buff your friends enormously.

Seriously, when you can drop down Freedom of Movement, Heroism, Greater Invisibility, and Cat's Grace as a MOVE action, then drop down Haste as your standard action at the beginning of combat... suddenly the party gets much nastier.

Even better, if you go grab Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine, which gives you access to a domain, pick up the Repose domain, and pick up Death Ward to slap in the Weave instead of Cat's Grace.

Your party is now immune to most of the shut-down and auto-kill spells in the game.

Also, check out the Marshall class from the Miniatures Handbook. It's got Cha to Stuff all over the place.

Enjoy.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 01:52 PM
Well, Sleep is a great spell. If you're the type who can think the right way, Silent Image is really good (though this also depends on the DM. I saw someone who got away with blindfolding entire parties with a single Silent Image spell, and I found that horribly questionable). Grease can be used to control the battlefield, but it has to be used in the right situations.
Glitterdust is very useful.

What exactly could I do with Silent Image? Assume idiocy/inexperience here.

Sleep! I will use that. Glitterdust--looks useful.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-24, 01:54 PM
It's fairly easy to boost up your Inspire Courage so much that your allies do obscene amounts of extra damage. Get the feats Dragontouched and Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic, Song of the Heart from ECS, Words of Creation from BoED, some Badges of Valor from MIC Regalia of the Hero item set, cast Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium... A level 3 Bard with two flaws will be granting his allies +7d4 fire damage on every attack they make.

If you count as both a Gnome and a Half-Elf, get the Half Elf Bard racial substitution levels 1 and 8 from Races of Destiny, and the Gnome Bard racial substitution level at 6 from Races of Stone.

Check out this guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952766) for other useful tips on making a decent bard. You could even go into Crusader or Warblade with the Song of the White Raven feat and Weapon Finesse and be a superb melee combatant.

Edit: Polymorph can make you a decent melee combatant. Max out UMD and get a Wand.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-24, 01:56 PM
What exactly could I do with Silent Image? Assume idiocy/inexperience here.

Sleep! I will use that. Glitterdust--looks useful.

What can't you do with Silent Image?

1) Create the illusion of a solid floor over a pit for oponents to fall through

2) Dress like a wizard. Cast spell, being very blatant and obvious about your incantations. Silent Image an appropriately sized dragon. Say something like "Now, my summoned minion... KILL THEM ALL".

3) An illusion of a door where there is no door is always good for laughs

4) Create an illusion of a Sphere of Ahniliation. Move it over by them, then curse loudly and say "Don't know... how much longer... I can contain this..."

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 01:57 PM
Honestly, this is not a bad character build, although the not-stellar Dex prevents it from being truly awsome.

My suggestion: Why bother with attacking? Here's what I'd do:

1: Start picking up spells that are buffs

2) Look up War Weaver from Heroes of Battle

3) When you qualify, take all 5 levels of War Weaver, and buff your friends enormously.

Seriously, when you can drop down Freedom of Movement, Heroism, Greater Invisibility, and Cat's Grace as a MOVE action, then drop down Haste as your standard action at the beginning of combat... suddenly the party gets much nastier.

Even better, if you go grab Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine, which gives you access to a domain, pick up the Repose domain, and pick up Death Ward to slap in the Weave instead of Cat's Grace.

Your party is now immune to most of the shut-down and auto-kill spells in the game.

Also, check out the Marshall class from the Miniatures Handbook. It's got Cha to Stuff all over the place.

Enjoy.

Thanks! Will take a look.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 01:59 PM
Also, check out the Marshall class from the Miniatures Handbook. It's got Cha to Stuff all over the place.

Found Marshall, couldn't find Cha to Stuff. What exactly do you mean?

Eldariel
2008-12-24, 02:00 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot - you've got Use Magic Device maxed, right? You can just get any Wands you'd be interested in and go to town when out of other stuff to do. Wand of Seeking Ray is a fine way to spend your actions, for example, if a bit expensive on those levels. Wand of Grease too.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:01 PM
<snip> A level 3 Bard with two flaws will be granting his allies +7d4 fire damage on every attack they make.<snip>


*jaw drops*

Thanks!

AmberVael
2008-12-24, 02:02 PM
Silent image is pretty much just trickery. Anything you can do with making one thing appear as something else? Silent Image. Sometimes it can be difficult though.

Illusions and other magical trickery can be really fun. I still remember when I convinced a lower level group of enemies that my Dancing Lights were will'o'wisps.
"Kill them!"
Took out three enemies with a cantrip. Priceless.

Telonius
2008-12-24, 02:02 PM
There are some suggestions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100400) for what to do with a low physical stat character. Not all of it will apply, but Snowflake Wardance (from Frostburn) was mentioned. Playswithfire in particular has a build that incorporates Bard levels with other classes and PrC's from several different sources. My own build there is charisma-focused, but based around the Oriental Adventures Samurai class rather than Bard. (And the Lawful requirement unfortunately prevents you from using it regardless).

Also, what feats do you already have?

Without getting into crazy multiclassing, there's really nothing stopping you from taking Weapon Finesse. Bards are proficient with the Rapier, which is finesse-able. Your DM might allow you to retrain to get it; if not, take it at level 6.

Feat suggestions:
Bard 1 - Whatever you have.
Bard 3 - Weapon Finesse
Bard 6 - Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn)
Bard 9 - Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)

If you can get your INT up to 15, the Words of Creation feat from Book of Exalted Deeds is very nice.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-24, 02:02 PM
Sleep is worthless, look at the casting time. Color Spray is much better.

An illusion of a floor, an illusion of a pit, an illusion of a wall or fence or spiked barricade... A Bard can make a decent Shadowcraft Mage (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556), though it's not as good as Beguiler or any other class that gets higher level spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-24, 02:03 PM
Found Marshall, couldn't find Cha to Stuff. What exactly do you mean?

All of the lesser auras are ' add your charisma to x' for the entire party.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:04 PM
/am fail.

Didn't realise UMD was class skill! Will profit.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:06 PM
Thanks so much so far!

Did not fully appreciate the awesomeness of this board. The only problem is by the time you're all done (thanks again) I'll have about 50 different bard builds!

Thank you. Keep going if you like ;)

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-24, 02:12 PM
Well, my suggestion was based on the fact that your character's physical stats aren't all that good, and you want to help the party.

Warblade... nah, if anything Swordsage. That lets you pick up a Shadow Hand stance (there's a very handy 1st level one that gives concealment whenever you move more than 10'), so you can grab Shadow Blade, which lets you use your Dex mod to damage rather than your Str mod. Then just pick up Weapon Finesse, and you're set!

Unfortunately, the stats aren't forgiving for a Warblade/Song of the White Raven build, because he still has to deal with the 5 str stat.

Telonius
2008-12-24, 02:13 PM
Sleep is worthless, look at the casting time. Color Spray is much better.

Unfortunately Color Spray is not a Bard spell. Though it really should be... :smallfrown:

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:14 PM
Abbreviation: CM. What book is this?

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:17 PM
Well, my suggestion was based on the fact that your character's physical stats aren't all that good, and you want to help the party.

Warblade... nah, if anything Swordsage. That lets you pick up a Shadow Hand stance (there's a very handy 1st level one that gives concealment whenever you move more than 10'), so you can grab Shadow Blade, which lets you use your Dex mod to damage rather than your Str mod. Then just pick up Weapon Finesse, and you're set!

Unfortunately, the stats aren't forgiving for a Warblade/Song of the White Raven build, because he still has to deal with the 5 str stat.

Thanks, I see what you mean.

Eldariel
2008-12-24, 02:19 PM
Complete Mage.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-24, 02:20 PM
Unfortunately, the stats aren't forgiving for a Warblade/Song of the White Raven build, because he still has to deal with the 5 str stat.

Weapon Finesse works just as well for a Warblade as it does for a Swordsage. So what if he gets -3 damage from Str if he's getting +7d4 fire damage from Dragonfire Inspiration. All that really matters at that point is if he can hit. A two-level dip into Unarmed Swordsage would still be amazing with Ascetic Mage, to get his Cha bonus to AC in light armor.


Abbreviation: CM. What book is this?

Complete Mage

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:24 PM
I do not have access to CM! Can anyone give me the stats for the Melodic Casting feat? (Is that illegal? I think it's OK, right?)

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:28 PM
Question: Are Ioun Stones a good, effective, efficient way to boost a couple stats?

Telonius
2008-12-24, 02:29 PM
Mostly legal, since Wizards put it up themselves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=2).

Melodic Casting.
Prerequisites: Perform 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, bardic music class feature
Benefits: Use Perform in place of Concentration, cast spells while using bardic music

Telonius
2008-12-24, 02:34 PM
Question: Are Ioun Stones a good, effective, efficient way to boost a couple stats?

... yes and no, depending. They're more expensive than the standard stat-enhancing items. But, if you need to use something else in the slot that the item occupies, they can be situationally useful. For example, you might need to use Gloves of Dexterity +4 instead of Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2. To maintain that +2 to Strength, you pick up an ioun stone. Note that the bonus Iouns give is an Enhancement bonus. It doesn't stack with the other (item)s of (ability), since they also give enhancement bonuses.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:39 PM
... yes and no, depending. They're more expensive than the standard stat-enhancing items. But, if you need to use something else in the slot that the item occupies, they can be situationally useful. For example, you might need to use Gloves of Dexterity +4 instead of Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2. To maintain that +2 to Strength, you pick up an ioun stone. Note that the bonus Iouns give is an Enhancement bonus. It doesn't stack with the other (item)s of (ability), since they also give enhancement bonuses.

For each ability, do you have a suggestion of a cheap-ish, efficient magic items to boost?

Telonius
2008-12-24, 02:47 PM
Gloves of Dexterity +2
Headband of Intellect +2
Periapt of Wisdom +2
Cloak of Charisma +2
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 (Strength)
Amulet of Health +2 (Constitution)

4,000gp each, all wondrous items. They grant +2 to their various stat. Ioun stones cost 8,000gp since they don't have a body slot.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 02:57 PM
Gloves of Dexterity +2
Headband of Intellect +2
Periapt of Wisdom +2
Cloak of Charisma +2
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 (Strength)
Amulet of Health +2 (Constitution)

4,000gp each, all wondrous items. They grant +2 to their various stat. Ioun stones cost 8,000gp since they don't have a body slot.

Thanks!

Unrelated Question: How does weapon size work? Damage lists a small and a medium. Is this the size of the weapon and your size? What is the weapon's size in relation to yours?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-24, 03:15 PM
Characters use the same size weapons as they are, so a small-size Gnome would use small-size weapons. Using a weapon too big is counted as a category heavier, i.e. light becomes one-handed, one-handed becomes two-handed, two-handed is too heavy. Wielding a weapon too small counts as one category lighter, and using an inappropriately sized weapon always imposes a -2 penalty to hit.

Melodic Casting allows you to substitute a Perform check for a Concentration check when used in casting a spell or using a spell-like ability. You can also cast spells and activate command word and spell completion magic items without interrupting an ongoing Bardic Music. Note that this doesn't work with wands or staves as they're spell trigger items.

You could get a Belt of Magnificense from the Miniatures Handbook. It adds a +2, +4, or +6 Enhancement bonus to all stats for 25K, 100K, or 200K gold respectively. Buying six separate +2 items costs 24K, buying six +4 items costs 96K, and buying six separate +6 items is 216K, so it's only cheaper to get the +6 version but that's an item that every high-level character should consider. Note that you could get a Belt that grants +2 Str instead of Gauntlets for the same price, check the sidebar on DMG page 288. I wouldn't worry about boosting this character's Strength unless you have trouble carrying your gear.

only1doug
2008-12-24, 03:52 PM
Alright, so I have a character that I consider very fun to play.
He's good. But he also kind of sucks in some ways.


Heian 'Badger' Daergel, Half-Gnome (Homebrew) Level 4 Bard

STR 5 (the problem), DEX 13, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 11, CHA 18

Half-Gnome (Elf/Gnome) traits:
* EDIT: Small Size
* Half-Gnomes treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons (as Gnomes)
* +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. (as Gnomes)
* Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells (as Gnomes)
* +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (as Gnomes)
* +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (as Gnomes)
* +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. (as Gnomes, as Elves)
* +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. (as Gnomes)
* Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals, dancing lights, ghost sound, OR prestidigitation. (modified Gnomes)
* Favored Class: Bard. (as Gnomes)
* Immunity to sleep spells, +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells (as Elves)
* +1 racial bonus Search and Spot checks. (as Half-Elves)
* +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks (as Half-Elves)
* Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf. (as Half-Elves)

WWYD? Obviously, 18 CHA is an asset, and this little guy is the unacknowledged, unofficial, yet de facto party leader, as well as party spokesman. He makes most of the plans and such, and is pretty cool.

But--fights? I mean, I can help the party with music, but I think that I should have some form of attack. With 5 STR, melee seems to be right out (to me. I'm not very experienced) but ranged also takes a penalty (I think).

What should I do, combatwise? Should I multiclass? Should I buy items? Should I [fill in]?

I'm really not very experienced at D&D at all. So-advise ANYTHING. Even if I just ruled it out.

Thanks.

EDIT: VIRTUALLY ANY SOURCE

you have access to complete mage? add reserve feats to give you a constant damage source.

Clap of thunder (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Clap_Of_Thunder,CM) reserve feat gives you a touch attack which deals 1d8 sonic damage / level of spell held in reserve (minimum 2nd level spell). sonic spells are fairly common for bards.
this would need weapon finesse to become truly useful but would still work before then (touch AC being much lower than normal AC).

the acidic splatter (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Acidic_Splatter,CM) reserve feat gives a ranged touch attack (dex based) but bards don't get anywhere near as many acid based spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-24, 04:48 PM
Mostly legal, since Wizards put it up themselves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=2).

Melodic Casting.
Prerequisites: Perform 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, bardic music class feature
Benefits: Use Perform in place of Concentration, cast spells while using bardic music

Melodic Casting also lets you cast spells with a Verbal component while maintaining Bardic Music.

I do not suggest Reserve feats. You have better things to do than throw around piddling amount of damage

ericgrau
2008-12-24, 07:21 PM
Well, for spells...
Control / General Purpose: Get lots of these
0: Detect Magic, Prestidigitation
1: Feather Fall, Grease
2: Calm Emotions, Glitterdust, Invisibility
3: Confusion, Deep Slumber, Dispel Magic, Haste, Slow

Illusions: Only get if you have *specific* plans; even then you may only need 1 or 2
1: Disguise Self, Silent Image, Ventriloquism
2: Alter Self, Minor Image
3: Glibness, Major Image

Stat Buffs: Unless you take War Weaver or otherwise boost your buffs, these aren't worth the combat round nor spell slot. Use only with extra spell slots and outside of combat. Ditto for bardic music. Note that heroism is easier to cast outside of combat, since you can just use it at the beginning of a dungeon/etc.
2: Cat's Grace, Heroism, Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendor

Healing Spells: Get a wand of Cure Light Wounds if anything. Do not put these on your spell list. You'll usually have better things to do in combat, aren't a good enough healer to save someone's life during combat, and between combat you can use the wand.

Utility Spells (Most spells that I didn't list.): If you think you might use these at some point, get them on scrolls. No sense wasting one of the few spells you have on something you barely use. But with some cheap low level scrolls you can be ready for more miscellaneous situations than you could ever fit on your spell list.

For spells from outside books, similar principles apply.

Other miscellaneous Options:
You should make an okay scout, albeit a fragile one. But if you bump into something rational, maybe you can reason with it and avoid a fight. You could take a 1 level dip into rogue to become the party's all-purpose skillmonkey. Read the skill rules on any skills you plan on using; even experienced players tend to be fuzzy with these.

You can use a crossbow. Which sucks hard but it's better than nothing and it keeps you out of trouble.

Gear: I'd put the amulet of health at the top of your list for the extra HP. Besides that you can get some cheap +1's for AC; but since you'll probably be staying in back don't spend too much gold on that. Be sure to have a masterwork weapon and masterwork tools or kits for any skill that allows them. Cha, dex and int help too, but aren't a high priority. Even your spells that allow a save usually trigger multiple saves, so having a high DC isn't critical.

FWIW, next time don't focus everything on a mental stat unless you play a full caster.

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 08:33 PM
It's fairly easy to boost up your Inspire Courage so much that your allies do obscene amounts of extra damage. Get the feats Dragontouched and Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic, Song of the Heart from ECS, Words of Creation from BoED, some Badges of Valor from MIC Regalia of the Hero item set, cast Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium... A level 3 Bard with two flaws will be granting his allies +7d4 fire damage on every attack they make.

OK--I did some serious research on this, but I can't exactly get the +7d4 you have.

Normal Inspire Courage: +1. Song of the Heart: +1. Badge of Valor: +1. Inspirational Boost: +1.

This +4 doubled by Words of Creation is +8. Dragonfire Inspiration gives Xd6 damage, where X is the Inspire Courage Boost. Is this not 8d6?

Or--am I wrong in the rules, and the multiplier comes first...

Normal doubled by WoC: +2. SotH + BoV + IB = +3.

This is 5d6.

So, am I wrong in some place, and if not do I use method 1 or 2?

Inyssius Tor
2008-12-24, 08:40 PM
You could get a Belt of Magnificense from the Miniatures Handbook. It adds a +2, +4, or +6 Enhancement bonus to all stats for 25K, 100K, or 200K gold respectively. Buying six separate +2 items costs 24K, buying six +4 items costs 96K, and buying six separate +6 items is 216K, so it's only cheaper to get the +6 version but that's an item that every high-level character should consider. Wouldn't it just be an item that every high-level monk should consider? No high-level character who hasn't been intentionally crippled could possibly need bonuses like that to all of their stats, right?

LordZarth
2008-12-24, 11:31 PM
BUMPing this because I really need an answer to my question two posts ago! Thanks :)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-25, 03:09 AM
OK--I did some serious research on this, but I can't exactly get the +7d4 you have.

Normal Inspire Courage: +1. Song of the Heart: +1. Badge of Valor: +1. Inspirational Boost: +1.

This +4 doubled by Words of Creation is +8. Dragonfire Inspiration gives Xd6 damage, where X is the Inspire Courage Boost. Is this not 8d6?

Or--am I wrong in the rules, and the multiplier comes first...

Normal doubled by WoC: +2. SotH + BoV + IB = +3.

This is 5d6.

So, am I wrong in some place, and if not do I use method 1 or 2?

Inspire Courage is +1 normally. Song of the Heart gives another +1, as does Badge of Valor. Words of Creation doubles it, from +3 to +6. Inspirational Boost increases it by another +1 after you've already started using it, so that doesn't get doubled. That makes it +7, though many will argue that it's still +8. Note that there is only one doubling, everything else is just a bonus, and you can apply your own effects in whatever order is most beneficial. You get to add as many bonuses as you can before it's doubled, but those are all counted before you start inspiring whereas IB cannot be counted before WoC since it occurs after you've started inspiring.

I was going from memory on Dragonfire Inspiration, it is Xd6 instead of Xd4. It's also a good idea to take Draconic Heritage for something Sonic-related, so it switches the fire damage to sonic damage, which far fewer opponents are resistant/immune to. You'll qualify due to Dragontouched, and can even take additional Draconic feats if desired.

If you've already been playing the character, either hire a Psion to use a Psychic Reformation on you, or use the retraining rules in PH2. Seriously consider picking up Warblade or Crusader with Song of the White Raven, even dipping one level and getting Bolstering Voice would be worth it to take only a Swift Action to begin using Inspire Courage. Another idea would be to dip one level of Pyrokineticist or one of the variants (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) to get the Fire Lash, which makes a Dex-based ranged touch attack that doesn't suffer a Str penalty to damage. Since your Inspire Courage effect would apply to a standard whip, it should apply to your energy lash as well.

LordZarth
2008-12-25, 02:05 PM
Awesome, thanks. However, some people on gleemax seemed to think that WoC doubled the base... I looked and the reading seemed ambiguous... are you sure it doubles some other stuff?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-12-25, 03:04 PM
"Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws
against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and
weapon damage rolls (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th
level, +8 at 20th level)."

It doesn't specify the base bonus, but it does give an example of what the doubled bonuses would be if you were only working with the base bonuses. Every book is printed under the assumption that you're only using that book and the core 3, and since there are no effects to increase the morale bonus of inspire courage in the core 3, it assumes that you only have the base bonuses as a starting point. WotC has said that you can apply your own effects in whatever order you choose, and if you're using more than just the core 3 and BoED then there's no reason you couldn't apply some other bonuses to your Inspire Courage before applying the benefit of Words of Creation.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-25, 04:10 PM
You can only carry 12 lbs. before weight slows you down with STR 5 and small size. Get a Heward's Handy Haversack (5 lbs.) and put most everything else in there. Definitely do not get a Bag of Holding; the weight of the lightest one is 15 lbs., 3 lbs. over your limit.

jcsw
2008-12-25, 06:39 PM
"Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws
against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and
weapon damage rolls (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th
level, +8 at 20th level)."

It doesn't specify the base bonus, but it does give an example of what the doubled bonuses would be if you were only working with the base bonuses. Every book is printed under the assumption that you're only using that book and the core 3, and since there are no effects to increase the morale bonus of inspire courage in the core 3, it assumes that you only have the base bonuses as a starting point. WotC has said that you can apply your own effects in whatever order you choose, and if you're using more than just the core 3 and BoED then there's no reason you couldn't apply some other bonuses to your Inspire Courage before applying the benefit of Words of Creation.

To clarify, anything that improves your Inspire Courage before or as you begin to use bardic music will double, because Words of Creation are applied when you begin to sing. So the order to do these things is...

(Song from the Heart - Passive)
(Using masterwork drums - Passive)(Generally only used for increasing dragonfire inspiration)
Swift - Inspirational Boost

Standard - Inspire Courage (Words of Creation)

Immediate - Activate badge of valor

You can thus activate them all in the same turn. but you lose your immediate action for the next round. Badge of Valor can only be activated after you begin so it's added on after the Words of Creation multiplier.


On a different note: Aww, half gnomes are half elf? If they were half human you could do the shadowcraft-gnome using sublime chord and then take the Talifarran (sp?) song from Races of Faerun to use your bardic music to heighten your spells.