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Dyllan
2008-12-24, 01:38 PM
I'm thinking of making an uber-specialized Magic Missile wizard. My goal is to create a viable character who uses magic missile almost exclusively - which is why I've given up 4 other schools of magic. Though if anyone has compelling arguments as to why I should give up different schools, I'll listen. Also, I'm up for any advice. I'm not sure if he'll be joining our current campaign at level 9+, or if he's being saved for the next one... that depends on whether my current Wizard who's becoming a bit too fond of Necromancy can work out his differences with the party Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor.

Human Wizard - Evoker Focused Specialist - giving up Necromancy, Divination and Illusion

1-5 Wizard - Fell Weaken, Fell Drain, Iron Will, Fell
Frighten
6 Incantrix - Give up Conjuration - Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile), Repeat Spell
7-9 Force Missile Mage - Heighten Spell
10-18 Incantrix - Twin Spell, Entangling Spell, Radiant Spell, Quicken Spell, Residual Magic
19-20 Force Missile Mage

I'm not taking advantage of most the Incantrix cheese - nothing to max out spellcraft to ludicrous levels. I mostly want it for the cheaper metamagic, 2/day free metamagic and bonus metamagic feats. I put off the last two levels of FMM until after Incantrix to lower the cost of Metamagic as quickly as possible, but not before getting the essential ability to break through shield and spell resistance.

Heighten spell is to increase the saves from your other metamagic effects, and to get past any kind of "immune to spells X level or lower" effects - as they seem to be the only way to stop your missiles.

By level 18, you can cast a Quickened (+4), Twinned (+2), Repeating (+1), Entangling (+0), Radiant (+0), Fell Drain (+0), Fell Frighten (+0), Fell weaken (+0) Magic Missile on 6 targets, using a level 8 slot. Then do it again, non-quickened, in a level 4 slot. So you hit 6 targets, four times each, for a total of 4d4+4 damage, 4 negative levels, -4 strength, shaken (unless those Fell Frightens stack, but I think they don't due to the multiple penalties from the same source rule), must make a fort save four times or be blinded for the round (or longer if you use heightened spells), and is entangled for the round. Should make it pretty easy for the rest of the party to wipe up.

Iku Rex
2008-12-24, 01:50 PM
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97421) ("Magic Missile Build") may contain some useful advice.

(My suggestions for "forcy" spells to supplement the magic missiles. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5364082&postcount=86))

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-24, 01:50 PM
Why not go warmage:? more dmg per missle... for about the same amount of missles your feats will be a little lower but warmage edge is nice to have.
1d4+5 missles

AmberVael
2008-12-24, 01:52 PM
Why not go warmage:? more dmg per missle... for about the same amount of missles your feats will be a little lower but warmage edge is nice to have.
1d4+5 missles

Warmage edge really doesn't add much to damage though. Int modifier to spell damage? Meeeeh...
If it applied to each missile, THEN it would be worth it.

Dyllan
2008-12-24, 01:56 PM
Why not go warmage:? more dmg per missle... for about the same amount of missles your feats will be a little lower but warmage edge is nice to have.
1d4+5 missles

This build really isn't about damage, it's about debuffing. Look at my feats - put all together, they can really mess my enemies up. Not worth giving any of those up for a bit more damage.

RMS Oceanic
2008-12-24, 02:03 PM
There's a feat mentioned in another thread called Forceful spell that raises the level by +1 (+0 with Arcane Thesis). The affected spell requires a fortitude save (Using the spell's normal DC, if any). Failure results in being knocked prone and stunned for one round.

I'd pick that up.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-24, 02:28 PM
AAAAAAAAAGH NO BANNY CONJURATION.

Seriously. Ban, like, Necromancy Enchantment or something.

UserClone
2008-12-24, 02:47 PM
Why has no one told the OP that you can't ban Divination?:smallconfused: that's an awful lot of lost schools...

mikej
2008-12-24, 03:21 PM
Don't give up Conjuration, don't go deep into this and focus a little on the rest of the party. Keep Conjuration & Transmutation to aid your party since a little buffs here and there greatly improve play. I would go just Specialist Wizard ( unless Domain Wizard is open ) drop Illusion, Enchantment, and Necromancy [ Incantatrix ]. Though I never look back and regret banning Enchantment, that school does have a lot of good spells with saves. Illusion is a tough one since you can't lose Divination and it has some usefull spells.

TempusCCK
2008-12-24, 03:22 PM
Why has no one told the OP that you can't ban Divination?:smallconfused: that's an awful lot of lost schools...

Maybe he plays with reasonable DM's who have reasonable houserules that override the stupid idea that divination is somehow less useful than any other school?

Dyllan
2008-12-24, 04:50 PM
Maybe he plays with reasonable DM's who have reasonable houserules that override the stupid idea that divination is somehow less useful than any other school?

Or maybe I should read the PHB more closely.

I usually go generalist wizard - this would be my first specialist wizard since my 3.0 days.

And yes, I know I'm giving up a lot of power by being so specialized - but I think it would be fun to play that way - overspecialized instead of doing a bit of everything like most wizards. So, if I am going to drop 4 schools, and I have to keep Evocation (obviously), Abjuration (can't have it prohibited per Incantrix requirements) and Divination... which other school should I keep?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-24, 04:52 PM
Conjuration or Transmutation. Both are amazing schools.

Dyllan
2008-12-24, 04:56 PM
There's a feat mentioned in another thread called Forceful spell that raises the level by +1 (+0 with Arcane Thesis). The affected spell requires a fortitude save (Using the spell's normal DC, if any). Failure results in being knocked prone and stunned for one round.

I'd pick that up.

Yes, and I do like that. But, you have to choose one target to be affected by it... all the feats I chose will affect everyone who gets hit by a magic missile. I do wish I could get more feats (I doubt my DM would allow flaws) and take it.

Dacia Brabant
2008-12-24, 05:46 PM
And yes, I know I'm giving up a lot of power by being so specialized - but I think it would be fun to play that way - overspecialized instead of doing a bit of everything like most wizards. So, if I am going to drop 4 schools, and I have to keep Evocation (obviously), Abjuration (can't have it prohibited per Incantrix requirements) and Divination... which other school should I keep?

Unless your party is going to be lacking in the buffs department, in which case you would want to keep Transmutation, then I would highly suggest keeping Illusion--great defenses, save-or-sucks/dies, the utility of the Image spells, and eventually gives you access to Conjuration.

But I do think there's a better option to banning four schools; since you're going for Force Missile Mage you should consider the Domain Wizard Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) and pick Evocation since its 1st level Domain spell is Magic Missile. You'd get the extra slot at each spell level, +1 caster level on your Domain spells, and you can metamagic up MM to use those higher-level slots instead of using the other Domain spells, but without having to drop any schools.

Dyllan
2008-12-24, 06:05 PM
But I do think there's a better option to banning four schools; since you're going for Force Missile Mage you should consider the Domain Wizard Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) and pick Evocation since its 1st level Domain spell is Magic Missile. You'd get the extra slot at each spell level, +1 caster level on your Domain spells, and you can metamagic up MM to use those higher-level slots instead of using the other Domain spells, but without having to drop any schools.

I can ask my DM how he feels about Domain Wizard. I haven't seen that before, so I have no clue what he'll think. I'm sure he won't mind based on power level, but he might not like it from a stylistic standpoint.

Leon
2008-12-25, 02:01 AM
Just drop Divination, if you cant see it fitting the idea you have go for it.
Our current game has a Evocation Wizard with Divination as his banned school, works fine for him

Aquillion
2008-12-25, 03:25 AM
Maybe he plays with reasonable DM's who have reasonable houserules that override the stupid idea that divination is somehow less useful than any other school?I think the reason why divination is unbannable has less to do with it being less useful, per se, and more to do with the fact that you really only need one person to have it covered. If I give up any other school, that's one less person who can spam its best effects, even if there's another caster in the group -- but with two casters, having one ban divination would almost always be a no-brainer, since divination's best effects don't benefit from having two people capable of casting them.

Teron
2008-12-25, 12:16 PM
Just drop Divination, if you cant see it fitting the idea you have go for it.
Our current game has a Evocation Wizard with Divination as his banned school, works fine for him
That would require his DM's permission, as it's against the rules.

Triaxx
2008-12-25, 01:22 PM
A DM who enforces such a retarded rule should not be allowed to DM.

Aquillion
2008-12-25, 02:49 PM
A DM who enforces such a retarded rule should not be allowed to DM.I just explained part of the reason why it makes sense for Divination to be unbannable, but if you want a better one:

The fact that we are all so eager to get a rule letting him ban it shows that it is, in fact, weaker than several other options. Yes, it might not be the weakest school normally, but here he's managed to arrange a situation where he has to choose between banning Divination, Conjuration, and Transmutation... it's obvious which is weaker there. The fact that the rules prevent Divination from being an option make perfect sense in that unique case, so it's the worst possible situation from which to try and convince your DM.

If they were just banning one school and there was nobody else with Divination in the party, I'd say fine. But when you're actually in a situation when you're asking to be allowed to ban Divination as a way of avoiding banning a more powerful school, that's the rule actually doing what it's supposed to do. Wizards are powerful enough already; being forced to choose between Conjuration and Transmutation is not crippling for them (at least, not compared to non-full-casters.)

Triaxx
2008-12-25, 06:36 PM
It's not like he looses much of anything by banning Conjuration. Shadow Conjuration anyone? Divination? Let's see. True Strike, Identify, Locate City, Arrow Mind, Clairvoyance, Assay Resistance, True Seeing, Moment of Prescience. Nope, nothing at all useful in Divination.

Aquillion
2008-12-25, 07:02 PM
It's not like he looses much of anything by banning Conjuration. Shadow Conjuration anyone? Divination? Let's see. True Strike, Identify, Locate City, Arrow Mind, Clairvoyance, Assay Resistance, True Seeing, Moment of Prescience. Nope, nothing at all useful in Divination.
He already gave up illusion, so no Shadow Conjuration. And while those spells are nice, they can't compete to the best conjurations or transmutations, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion -- there was no character or plot reason why he should ban divination, it's just that people want him to be able to do it because (despite its many powerful spells) it's still plainly less powerful than either of the other two options.

If he keeps illusion and drops conjuration, he's back where he started -- he still has to drop one more school out of the remaining two (transmutation and divination.) And as good as divination is, it can't compete with things like Disintegrate or the Polymorph line.

Leon
2008-12-25, 07:42 PM
That would require his DM's permission, as it's against the rules.

Then he can ask his DM, as its the DM's Game he can chose to ignore the silly little things that crop up in the Core Rules

I know RAW is the bandied about word here in Theoretical land but you can push past that concept and offer suggestion's for what may help even if it "breaks" RAW

Dyllan
2008-12-26, 08:43 AM
Then he can ask his DM, as its the DM's Game he can chose to ignore the silly little things that crop up in the Core Rules

I know RAW is the bandied about word here in Theoretical land but you can push past that concept and offer suggestion's for what may help even if it "breaks" RAW

The build is already requesting access to a number of metamagic feats from a variety of sources, and a PrC from Dragon. As the only school that's really core to this character concept is Evocation, I see no reason to ask the DM to bend the rules to let me drop Divination.

Yes, he might agree if I asked, but I believe house rules should either fix a serious flaw or be required to make something work in a unique circumstance. As this is neither, I am not inclined to ask for a house rule on it.

That being said, I don't necessarily agree with the "no banning divination rule" for specialist wizards. But if every player tried to change every rule they disagreed with, we would have no order at all. So, I like to pick my battles. :-)

I think I'm going to just go with Illusion as my allowed school. It might not be the most powerful, but it does seem to be the most versatile of the schools.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-12-26, 10:33 AM
giving up divination meens no read or detect magic... From what i understand mabye its changed but read magic is essential to any wizard... don't you need it for new spells or some thing??
I believe the whole reason they maybe divination unbannable is because of those spells.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 10:40 AM
Ok, first of all, no thank you for the unnecessarily hostile response to the pointing out that Div is not bannable by the normal rules. Granted, in most circumstances, that could be a reasonable house rule, but nonetheless, in mos people's game, the rule stands. In any case, unlike the (few) people (essentially) shouting "Gods! He's holding up RAW like it's some sort of untouchable golden idol!!" I was making my best effort not to make any assumptions. I was trying to help the guy make his decision, which apparently I did. While in many cases RAW is downright silly, in the vast majority of cases, it is the standard. (Apologies if any feelings were hurt by this, but I don't like feeling attacked.:smallannoyed:)

Triaxx
2008-12-26, 12:35 PM
So, divination was made unbannable specifically to force us to drop a school with easily and completely broken spells? I love RAW. :smallamused:

Vexxation
2008-12-26, 12:55 PM
giving up divination meens no read or detect magic... From what i understand mabye its changed but read magic is essential to any wizard... don't you need it for new spells or some thing??
I believe the whole reason they maybe divination unbannable is because of those spells.

Yeah, thanks to Read Magic's classification as Divination, it would be mechanically impossible for a wizard to ever transcribe a new spell to their spellbook and then cast it.

And I must say, a wizard who cannot cast from scrolls spells which he does not know is a wizard I don't want to adventure with...

UserClone
2008-12-26, 01:24 PM
Ever heard of the skills Decipher Script/Spellcraft?:smallwink: Look them up in your friendly PHB, chapter 4.:smalltongue: Granted, skill points can be hard to come by, but less so since Int is your casting stat, but these mean that it isn't necessary to use read magic, aside from the fact that, per RAW, ALL Wizards can cast it from memory. Read the Wizard description in the Classes chapter (3), under Spellbook. (read magic is a necessary exception, and since it is an exception, it trumps the banning of Divination (or should, at least), even if your DM allows such).

Aquillion
2008-12-26, 03:29 PM
giving up divination meens no read or detect magic... From what i understand mabye its changed but read magic is essential to any wizard... don't you need it for new spells or some thing??
I believe the whole reason they maybe divination unbannable is because of those spells.Hrm. I never thought of that. It makes a bit of sense, but if they were really worried about that, why not just make Read Magic universal?

Also, you only have to ban one school if you specialize in Divination, which does sort of indicate that WotC mistakenly thought it was underpowered.

Vexxation
2008-12-26, 04:02 PM
Ever heard of the skills Decipher Script/Spellcraft?:smallwink: Look them up in your friendly PHB, chapter 4.:smalltongue:

Decipher Script:
Deciphering a written spell, such as a scroll, is an Epic Skill check at a DC 50+(5 x Spell Level). Um... good luck...

Spellcraft:
To decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) is a DC 20+Spell level. Let's make it easy an assume it's a level one spell. DC 21. At level one, you have 4 ranks, +5 Int (Gray Elf), + 2 synergy (Knowledge: Arcana) for a grand total of 11. Oops, forgot masterwork tools. 13. Need an 8 or higher to succeed. Not too bad. But boy, it'd sure be too bad if you failed and couldn't attempt again until the next day...

So, yes, it is, I suppose, almost feasible to have a character without access to Read Magic.


aside from the fact that, per RAW, ALL Wizards can cast it from memory. Read the Wizard description in the Classes chapter (3), under Spellbook. (read magic is a necessary exception, and since it is an exception, it trumps the banning of Divination (or should, at least), even if your DM allows such).

I don't have a PHB in front of me, so the SRD will have to suffice. It says that, yes, all wizards can prepare Read Magic from memory. However, the rules also state that spells from a prohibited school are not available. In fact, it reads,
Specialization allows a wizard to cast extra spells from her chosen school, but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools.

It's all well and good to be capable of preparing a spell, but if you don't learn how to cast it...

Now, you ask "How can you not know how to cast it?!" The answer lies in the components: Verbal and Somatic (and Focus, but whatever). You never learned the verbal and/or somatic components because you never studied divination. How unfortunate.

Talya
2008-12-26, 04:06 PM
Banning divination would be silly, even if it were allowable, which it isn't.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 04:34 PM
What Talya said. *folds arms:smallcool:*

Triaxx
2008-12-26, 06:09 PM
I guess the whole point is moot because RAW has spoken! Just accept that it would be a house rule and move on. We house rule over stupid pointless things all the time. We ban TOB, we ban Spiked Chains, we ban Pun-pun. Hell, some even ban Paladins. Deal with it and move on.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 07:05 PM
*points out that he is not attempting to force RAW down the throat of Triaxx or anyone else, merely pointing out a flaw in the OP's plan, which, admittedly, he took care of a page ago (and that, if anything, is what makes banning Div a moot point):smalltongue:*

RMS Oceanic
2008-12-26, 07:26 PM
Speaking of flaws in OP's plan, I've spotted another one: You need Combat Casting to enter Force Missile Mage, but he doesn't have it in his feat choices anywhere.

Ricky S
2008-12-27, 02:36 AM
Could someone post up a full list of the stats and character sheet? I am making a Force Missile mage as well and it would be really helpful if I could see some of the stats,feats,equipment,etc. Thanks

Leon
2008-12-27, 06:00 AM
Banning divination would be silly, even if it were allowable, which it isn't.

Well im sure the Wizard that's in the current game will be delighted to hear that.

Im AFB atm so the rest of my Long Argument will have to wait (and possibly be forgotten if this doesn't keep going till then) as i'd like to check some facts

Paul H
2008-12-28, 11:27 PM
Hi

Someone asked for a build here's one:
Probably not optimised, but isn't over specialised either.

Half Elf
St 10 De 14 Co 10 In 16 Wi 10 Ch 16 (32 pt Buy)

1) Warlock (See the Unseen) Spell Focus: Evocation
2) Warmage
3) Warmage. Pract Spellcaster: Warlock
4) Warmage (Adv Learn; Tensers Disk) +1 Cha
5) Warmage
6) Warmage. Extra Edge
7) Warmage (Adv Learn; Leomunds Tiny Hut)
8) Warmage (Sudden Empower) +1 Cha
9) Eld Theurge. (Spiderwalk, DR 1/Cold Iron) Invisible Needle
10) ET. (Fiendish Resilience 1)
11) ET. (Spellblast, Devils Sight)
12) ET. (DR 2/Cold Iron) Improved Toughness +1 Cha
13) ET. (Eldritch Spellweave, Fell Flight)
14) Argent Savant. (Force Specialization)
15) ET. (Brimstone Blast). Spell Penetration
16) ET. (DR 3/Cold Iron) +1 Cha
17) ET. (Eldritch Chain)
18) ET. (Fiendish Reilience 3) Empower SLA:Eld Blast
19) ET. (DR 4/Cold Iron, Greatreach Blast, Vitriolic Blast)
20) Warmage. (Armoured Mage - Medium) +1 Cha

You only lose one level of Warmage spells, but have full CL for Force spells. You also lose 3 CL for Warlock's Eldritch Blasts.

Ok, only Magic Missile, Orb of Force & Invisible Needle, (each doing +1 dam/die), but I think the Eldritch Blast makes up for it.

Cheers
Paul H

wadledo
2008-12-28, 11:40 PM
:smallconfused:Huh?:smallconfused:

Half-elf?
What is, half-elf?:smallconfused:

Aquillion
2008-12-28, 11:49 PM
Aside from the odd choice of half-elf, I don't see the point of combining warlock and warmage, except for thematic purposes. And that build doesn't have any levels in Force Missile Mage, which was what was being requested...

Force Missile Mage is an actual prestige class. It's five levels long and its prerequisites are Concentration 9, Spellcraft 9, the Combat Casting feat, and of course the ability to cast Magic Missile. It gives up a level of spellcasting at first level, but advances spellcasting for each level after that. It grants a number of advantages, but by far the most important are an extra missile at first and fifth levels whenever they cast Magic Missile; this can exceed the spell's usual limits (so they can reach six missiles, and eventually seven.) They can also, eventually, cast Shield as a swift action a few times a day, change the energy type of magic missile, cast magic missile stilled for free, overcome SR and some other special defensises when casting Magic Missile, and a few other, less important things.

That's not quite the whole details of the class, but it should be enough for you to design general builds around it.

Paul H
2008-12-29, 12:01 AM
Hi

Ooops - my bad:smallredface:

And I spent an hour sorting that one out. (And another hour figuring out Ultimate Magus on the same theme....).

Any chance someone could post up the details, please?

Cheers
Paul H

Aquillion
2008-12-29, 12:02 AM
Those are pretty much all the important details, but if you google it you can find the exact stats pretty easily.

Paul H
2008-12-29, 12:31 AM
Hi

Found an unofficial source for the PrC. (From Dragon 328)

So........

Grey Elf (Int 20, Extra Edge) Warmage 8/FM5/Argent Savant1
Magic Missile 7D4+14+8 (Edge/Extra Edge).

That's 40 pts dam, (Avg), without Sudden Empowering it! Wonder how many spell slots a 13th lvl Warmage has....? :smallbiggrin:

Cheers
Paul H

arguskos
2008-12-29, 12:32 AM
Dude, Force Missile Mage is FROM Dragon Magazine. That's the official source I bet. :smallwink:

Innis Cabal
2008-12-29, 12:35 AM
You'd be guessing right. It would be the offical source.

arguskos
2008-12-29, 12:37 AM
You'd be guessing right. It would be the offical source.
Well, there's the newer printing in the Dragon Compendium, which technically supersedes that one, but I don't think anything changed, so it matters little.

Aquillion
2008-12-29, 12:50 AM
In general, the logical way to go in a Force Missile Mage build if you want to be a bit optimized is to take Arcane Thesis in (what else) Magic Missile, then use various metamagic on it, benefitting from the fact that a Force Missile Mage's Magic Missile is more powerful than your typical first-level damaging spell would be.

The best metamagic, as noted in the original post, is stuff that affects every person you hit with your missiles, so you can divide it many ways, such as Entangling, Radiant, Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, and Fell weaken. And of course Quicken, Twin Spell, and so on are all obvious.

Arcane Thesis is a bit cheesy when abused, but this is an underpowered way to use it -- and without it and a lot of metamagic, you simply aren't going to be able to do much with Magic Missile at higher levels. This will let you keep throwing Magic Missiles of one sort or another for your entire career.

Paul H
2008-12-29, 09:29 PM
You'd be guessing right. It would be the offical source.

Hi

Yes - the 'unofficial source' paraphrased Dragon Magazine. (The 'official source').

Cheers
Paul H

Leon
2008-12-30, 02:21 AM
How would Argent Savant Go with its Force based focus?