My [4e] Experience DM-ing KotS

[skywalker]

So, as I've posted before, I'm doing a lot of DM-ing with 4e. A lot of people seem to want to play it at least once to try it out, and I've found that once someone plays it, they don't want to play anything else. Here's an example. A group of high school friends got together last night while everyone's back from college. One of my friends brought his Savage Worlds stuff, I brought 4e. He said "I've got Savage Worlds stuff." I said "yeah guys, he has Savage Worlds stuff!" The response: "So, about those 4e characters we were making..."

Anyway, why I'm really posting this is not a quasi-interesting story about 4e's popularity, but to compare the approach of my to groups to KotS. There are some very minor spoilers for anyone planning on playing KotS who hasn't gotten into the keep yet.

Both groups have had personnel shuffles, altho the class makeup of the party has not changed in group A. Group A has a cleric, a wizard, a paladin, a fighter, and a ranger. Group A has been having a lot of trouble with the module, they needed a Deus to escape from the Irontooth encounter, and since they got into the keep, they've been experiencing the "10 minute workday" just like in 3.5.

Group B is slightly different. They had a wizard up until Irontooth, but no longer. Since they started into the Keep, they've had a paladin, a warlord, a fighter, a ranger, and a warlock. Now, I've never thought a party could survive the Keep without a cleric or a wizard. Apparently, I was wrong. A little more background. Group B made it through all the encounters outside the Keep with only 4 characters, which meant they made level 2 easily. When another player showed up, I let him come in at level 2 for fun, altho I didn't give him the level 2 gold or magic items. So essentially, Group B walked into the Keep with 5 level 2 characters.

They didn't sleep for 8(!) encounters. The entire goblin/undead menace on the first floor of KotS is no more. Most characters didn't use more than one healing surge in 8(!) encounters, and I'm sure I played the monsters tougher than Wizards intended them to be played. These characters aren't even terribly optimized. They also found every magic item in the place, perhaps somewhat due to the ranger having a passive perception check of 21.

What do you make of this GITP?

[Jera]

KotS isnt very difficult early on, it was designed to ease players into 4e.

By the time Irontooth comes out you should have had a few fairly difficult battles, and depending on how good your players are Irontooth can do a TPK.

[Saph]

So, as I've posted before, I'm doing a lot of DM-ing with 4e. A lot of people seem to want to play it at least once to try it out, and I've found that once someone plays it, they don't want to play anything else.

Seriously? That's weird. There's been a definite split in our group and most others I know - some prefer 4e to 3.5, but some don't, and getting them to play it just solidified the opinions of both.


They didn't sleep for 8(!) encounters. The entire goblin/undead menace on the first floor of KotS is no more. Most characters didn't use more than one healing surge in 8(!) encounters, and I'm sure I played the monsters tougher than Wizards intended them to be played. These characters aren't even terribly optimized. They also found every magic item in the place, perhaps somewhat due to the ranger having a passive perception check of 21.

What do you make of this GITP?

Either they're using absolutely brilliant tactics, they're incredibly lucky, they're cheating, your monsters are wimps, or a combination of all four. :P

Seriously, that strains belief. One healing surge each in EIGHT encounters? 4e is not 3.5 - there's no way to build a character who can reliably avoid getting hit. Monsters should be hitting every other attack, and a few hits is enough to take a PC down. Something weird is going on, although we'd have to learn more to know exactly what.

- Saph

[pirateshow]

I'm a little ways into KotS myself at the moment, and I've had the sort of group that's hard to get more than 3 at the table simultaneously. They seem to be enjoying it, though I've had to re-build some encounters on the fly so they wouldn't get overrun. Irontooth did give them a serious run for their money, though- he puts out a fair load of damage, and he's an absolute SACK of hit points for level 1/2 characters to stack up against.

I am enjoying one thing, though: the PCs found a letter from Ninaran, signed merely 'N' (who they keep refusing to meet) and another signed by Kalarel. They found out a bit about Sir Keegan, asked for a last name (I coughed up 'Naerumar' off the top of my brain), and are now convinced that Keegan Naerumar and "Kalarel N." are one and the same person. I'm letting them run with the mistake, as it'll make the Sir Keegan encounter much more interesting...

[Glyphic]

Hm. Isn't 'Keegan' Sir Keegan's last name? I forget how Knight's naming works.

[Gralamin]

So, as I've posted before, I'm doing a lot of DM-ing with 4e. A lot of people seem to want to play it at least once to try it out, and I've found that once someone plays it, they don't want to play anything else. Here's an example. A group of high school friends got together last night while everyone's back from college. One of my friends brought his Savage Worlds stuff, I brought 4e. He said "I've got Savage Worlds stuff." I said "yeah guys, he has Savage Worlds stuff!" The response: "So, about those 4e characters we were making..."
I haven't noticed this, but it is still quite fun. I've DMed through KotS, am in Thunderspire, and run another campaign. So I know my 4e.


Anyway, why I'm really posting this is not a quasi-interesting story about 4e's popularity, but to compare the approach of my to groups to KotS. There are some very minor spoilers for anyone planning on playing KotS who hasn't gotten into the keep yet.

Both groups have had personnel shuffles, altho the class makeup of the party has not changed in group A. Group A has a cleric, a wizard, a paladin, a fighter, and a ranger. Group A has been having a lot of trouble with the module, they needed a Deus to escape from the Irontooth encounter, and since they got into the keep, they've been experiencing the "10 minute workday" just like in 3.5.
I've seen a Warlord, Paladin, Paladin, Ranger, Wizard group go through 6 encounters, almost killing some of them in the process. The battles seem to go on for longer over all though, and the 10 minute workday is a side effect of player style (Spending more dailies especially when unwarranted, taking to much damage, etc.)
In addition, Irontooth is EL+5. It is probably is going to be a TPK.


Group B is slightly different. They had a wizard up until Irontooth, but no longer. Since they started into the Keep, they've had a paladin, a warlord, a fighter, a ranger, and a warlock. Now, I've never thought a party could survive the Keep without a cleric or a wizard. Apparently, I was wrong. A little more background. Group B made it through all the encounters outside the Keep with only 4 characters, which meant they made level 2 easily. When another player showed up, I let him come in at level 2 for fun, altho I didn't give him the level 2 gold or magic items. So essentially, Group B walked into the Keep with 5 level 2 characters.
Thats about average for the keep.


They didn't sleep for 8(!) encounters. The entire goblin/undead menace on the first floor of KotS is no more. Most characters didn't use more than one healing surge in 8(!) encounters, and I'm sure I played the monsters tougher than Wizards intended them to be played. These characters aren't even terribly optimized. They also found every magic item in the place, perhaps somewhat due to the ranger having a passive perception check of 21.
Somethings up. Unless you rolled horribly, this shouldn't of happened.


What do you make of this GITP?
Cheating.

[skywalker]

Well, I don't think they're cheating. The whole group isn't, in any case. I know the ranger isn't cheating, she's a DMPC :smallbiggrin: I don't ask to see rolls, I trust them not to cheat, and it's not like I'm upset. I just wanted to tell everybody about my (seemingly extraordinary) experience.

I don't find I'm rolling too poorly, I think outstanding tactics are keeping the 21 AC tank of a paladin between the baddies and the squishies, and the lack of any real squishies also helps. But I don't have to roll too horribly to miss the paladin.

The warlord is of the tactical variety, and his commander's strikes never miss (that's not hard, he's got a +3 INT). He's using a longspear to stand behind the mordenkrad wielding fighter and grant him attacks. I think the fact that they equal 3 strikers (with the warlock, ranger, and two-hander fighter) makes them a bit atypical, and more of a "nova" party than you should be allowed to have at this level. The mordenkrad really helps, several times the fighter re-rolled a 1 into a 6. The ranger always declaring a quarry and the warlock always declaring a curse meant lots of extra damage dice being rolled.

I think the net effect of all that is that about half of the monsters in a given encounter go down in the first 1-2 rounds. Which basically turns the encounter into a mop-up. They also knifed Balgron in his sleep, making that one a laugher. I'm wondering how they'll do against the meatier encounters on level 2 of the keep, where there are fewer monsters with more HP.

EDIT: @V Yes, that's what I mean, people never miss when he grants them a basic, since they really don't need an extra +3 to start with most of the time.

[Vortling]

The warlord is of the tactical variety, and his commander's strikes never miss (that's not hard, he's got a +3 INT). He's using a longspear to stand behind the mordenkrad wielding fighter and grant him attacks.


Based off what I've read, I'm going to call shenanigans. I'd like to zoom in on this specifically. Do you mean that people never miss when he grants them their free basic attack with commander's strike? Because commander's strike doesn't require an attack roll. The warlord adds his int to the damage, not their attack roll.

I don't mean to be accusative, but part of the endurance of your players may be due to powers innocently being used incorrectly. How tactically are you challenging them? If they're all focused on the tactical positioning and you're not keeping the tactical pressure up that may also contribute to the situation.

[Gralamin]

Well, I don't think they're cheating. The whole group isn't, in any case. I know the ranger isn't cheating, she's a DMPC :smallbiggrin: I don't ask to see rolls, I trust them not to cheat, and it's not like I'm upset. I just wanted to tell everybody about my (seemingly extraordinary) experience.
You might not be upset, but you might want to look at the sheets and make sure they have everything right. In could cause problems later.


I don't find I'm rolling too poorly, I think outstanding tactics are keeping the 21 AC tank of a paladin between the baddies and the squishies, and the lack of any real squishies also helps. But I don't have to roll too horribly to miss the paladin.
I know how thats like, a lot of the monsters have to roll a 15 or above to hit my groups paladins. Then again, that doesn't seem to be all that effective at stopping me (The Dicebot in that IRC game loves DMs and hates Players.)


The warlord is of the tactical variety, and his commander's strikes never miss (that's not hard, he's got a +3 INT). He's using a longspear to stand behind the mordenkrad wielding fighter and grant him attacks. I think the fact that they equal 3 strikers (with the warlock, ranger, and two-hander fighter) makes them a bit atypical, and more of a "nova" party than you should be allowed to have at this level. The mordenkrad really helps, several times the fighter re-rolled a 1 into a 6. The ranger always declaring a quarry and the warlock always declaring a curse meant lots of extra damage dice being rolled.
EDIT: @V Yes, that's what I mean, people never miss when he grants them a basic, since they really don't need an extra +3 to start with most of the time.
Connecting these two together because they are related:
Miss chances should be pretty high actually. Monsters tend to have an AC of ~14+Level (on average). Most enemies here are about 2~3 giving expected ACs of about 16~17 (Looking through most monsters seem to be a bit lower because of the amount of brutes, but a substantial number are at that or higher.) Their fort over all should be about ~1 below that (Or in the case of Brutes, usually a bit higher), Reflex should be about 1 - 2 lower, and will should be 2 to 3 lower (varying upon will). Other then a few odd spots where these are incorrect (Usually because of elite / Solo bonuses) the First level falls in line with this.

Characters on the other hand can be expected to have +11 as an upper bound attack vs AC at this level (20 attack stat + 3 Proficiency + 1 from levels + 1 from Weapon talent + 1 from magic items). If they all have attack bonuses in this range (Or +8 for non-AC attackers), they should still miss between 20 and 30 percent of the time.

Also remember that Warlocks and Rangers must Target the nearest enemy with their extra damage features. Giving them the ability to pick off whoever they want vastly increases the bonus. Also remember that Prime Shot requires the character to be closer then any other character to the creature. A group like this would actually be expected to rest more, since their sheer damage output will kill off a lot of creatures quickly, but leave them open to counter attacks or surprise attacks.


I think the net effect of all that is that about half of the monsters in a given encounter go down in the first 1-2 rounds. Which basically turns the encounter into a mop-up. They also knifed Balgron in his sleep, making that one a laugher. I'm wondering how they'll do against the meatier encounters on level 2 of the keep, where there are fewer monsters with more HP.


Knifing Balgron in his sleep does help, but the lack of control in this group indicates that something is up, since unless powers were chosen directly to make up for the lack of a controller, the minions should take a while to pick off, and are a very real threat.

Basically: Make sure everyone's doing everything right, or further encounters are going to seem bland.

Also a word of advice for the final fight...
Don't have Kalarel heal as much as he should, his insane attack bonus and defenses, in addition to the 5 to 10 hp he'd gain a round really drags out the fight.

[Kurald Galain]

So, as I've posted before, I'm doing a lot of DM-ing with 4e. A lot of people seem to want to play it at least once to try it out, and I've found that once someone plays it, they don't want to play anything else.
I must echo Saph's sentiments here. Most people around here want to try it out (although several people don't). Of those who do try it out, absolutely nobody "don't want to play anything else", but about half of them prefer it to earlier editions, and the other half doesn't.

Regarding your "lucky" party, this is probably the result of some rule somebody's overlooked.

Incidentally, I feel the need to point out the irony that "KotS" translates as "vomit" in at least one language I know :smalltongue: Not that it's that bad, but I feel WOTC should have done better for an intro adventure.

[Saph]

Well, I don't think they're cheating. The whole group isn't, in any case. I know the ranger isn't cheating, she's a DMPC :smallbiggrin: I don't ask to see rolls, I trust them not to cheat, and it's not like I'm upset. I just wanted to tell everybody about my (seemingly extraordinary) experience.

. . .

The warlord is of the tactical variety, and his commander's strikes never miss (that's not hard, he's got a +3 INT).

Here would be issue number one. Commander's Strike doesn't add your Int to your to-hit. It adds to your damage - much weaker.

Beyond that, there's not much I can say, except that I strongly suspect there are a few more PC-favouring misreadings going on. If you crunch the numbers, monsters just should not be going down that easily, and they should be able to hit the PCs a good deal more often, too. Either way, something is definitely up.

- Saph

[pirateshow]

Hm. Isn't 'Keegan' Sir Keegan's last name? I forget how Knight's naming works.

Nope, it's Sir Firstname, at least by real-world convention. It's Sir Paul and Sir Elton, not Sir McCartney and Sir John.

[esorscher]

Nope, it's Sir Firstname, at least by real-world convention. It's Sir Paul and Sir Elton, not Sir McCartney and Sir John.

Or Sir Kay, if we're going medieval all over this grass.

[JaxGaret]

When another player showed up, I let him come in at level 2 for fun, altho I didn't give him the level 2 gold or magic items.


I use a DMPC in a party with at least 3 PCs

...

Nah, I won't even respond to that.

[skywalker]

You might not be upset, but you might want to look at the sheets and make sure they have everything right. In could cause problems later. Well, now that my stupidity involving Commander's Strike has been revealed, I'm definitely going to.


I know how thats like, a lot of the monsters have to roll a 15 or above to hit my groups paladins. Then again, that doesn't seem to be all that effective at stopping me (The Dicebot in that IRC game loves DMs and hates Players.) I think my misses are karma: the session before, I rolled 4 straight natural 18s against the paladin, and 4 straight natural 4s against the wizard.


Connecting these two together because they are related:
Miss chances should be pretty high actually. Monsters tend to have an AC of ~14+Level (on average). Most enemies here are about 2~3 giving expected ACs of about 16~17 (Looking through most monsters seem to be a bit lower because of the amount of brutes, but a substantial number are at that or higher.) Their fort over all should be about ~1 below that (Or in the case of Brutes, usually a bit higher), Reflex should be about 1 - 2 lower, and will should be 2 to 3 lower (varying upon will). Other then a few odd spots where these are incorrect (Usually because of elite / Solo bonuses) the First level falls in line with this.

Characters on the other hand can be expected to have +11 as an upper bound attack vs AC at this level (20 attack stat + 3 Proficiency + 1 from levels + 1 from Weapon talent + 1 from magic items). If they all have attack bonuses in this range (Or +8 for non-AC attackers), they should still miss between 20 and 30 percent of the time.

Also remember that Warlocks and Rangers must Target the nearest enemy with their extra damage features. Giving them the ability to pick off whoever they want vastly increases the bonus. Also remember that Prime Shot requires the character to be closer then any other character to the creature. A group like this would actually be expected to rest more, since their sheer damage output will kill off a lot of creatures quickly, but leave them open to counter attacks or surprise attacks. I really don't think the math is the question. I know that's not a very good "argument" but perhaps it was just luck. The Warlock gets some very intense coaching about wear he should move and who he should curse from the Warlord. Which I consider to be rather flavorful, actually. It's hard for them to be open to counterattack when nothing is left alive to do so, or warn others for a surprise. I've actually had the goblins flee with the intent of warning others when every encounter reached half-strength. Not a single goblin has escaped.


Knifing Balgron in his sleep does help, but the lack of control in this group indicates that something is up, since unless powers were chosen directly to make up for the lack of a controller, the minions should take a while to pick off, and are a very real threat.

Basically: Make sure everyone's doing everything right, or further encounters are going to seem bland.

Also a word of advice for the final fight...
Don't have Kalarel heal as much as he should, his insane attack bonus and defenses, in addition to the 5 to 10 hp he'd gain a round really drags out the fight.

I'll see about Kalarel, honestly he might need that to keep up. The lack of controller... The fighter has Cleave and the Paladin enlarged his Dragon Breath. A 5x5 square is huge, especially when the fighter says "yeah, sure, flame me, I've got HP."


Here would be issue number one. Commander's Strike doesn't add your Int to your to-hit. It adds to your damage - much weaker. You. Are. Joking...

...

Except you're not. Holy crap. That would, in fact, be issue number one. Wow. I can't believe 4 people mis-read that power.


Beyond that, there's not much I can say, except that I strongly suspect there are a few more PC-favouring misreadings going on. If you crunch the numbers, monsters just should not be going down that easily, and they should be able to hit the PCs a good deal more often, too. Either way, something is definitely up.

- Saph


...

Nah, I won't even respond to that.

Is there something wrong there?

[Yakk]

I've actually had the goblins flee with the intent of warning others when every encounter reached half-strength.
Fleeing goblins do less damage than attacking goblins. And it is hard to flee.

The correct "tactical" method of warning others is to send for help immediately with 1 runner, and then everyone else harries and slows down the attackers, falling back if needed to better positions.

If someone chases after the runner, they either have to run through the goblins -- or they split up. Split up parties are much weaker.

But yes, if you had their enemies break and run, you'd expect the players to take less damage. In fact, the Intimidate skill can be used to make opponents surrender or run when bloodied!

[Mercenary Pen]

Hopefully, with the Commander's Strike issue fixed, you should start to achieve a better balance between your party and the goblins, etc. If things still don't seem to challenge the players, then you probably want to beef up the encounters with either more monsters or tougher monsters...

Maybe even use the class templates in the DMG to give you some quick and dirty elites (for example, I turned a Kobold skirmisher in KotSf into a Kobold Two-Blade ranger)...

However, you want to wait until one of the tougher encounters to decide whether fixing the Commander's Strike problem was enough, for example:
Check how they do against the Kruthik, Blue Slime or the Deathjump Spider encounters (Areas 10, 11 and 12 respectively) before deciding to toughen things up... if you've gone past those, use any other above party-level encounter as a means of gauging your party's ability to cope.

Then, considering the sheer number of strikers/defenders and the lack of a controller, not only swarm the meat-shield(s), but with the defender(s) occupied by moderately weak monsters, punch through with slightly stronger monsters and hit the warlord HARD.

IMO, once a PC is down for the count, they don't have any free actions to use advising their comrades on tactics (either in or out of character)...

Maybe this'll be of use, or maybe it won't...

[skywalker]

Well, I ran another 3 encounters last night, the 3 in the "natural cave" portion of the Keep. Minor spoilers here for that portion of the Keep.

They absolutely murdered the blue slime, but there was luck involved there with critical hits and generous use of dailies. The kruthik encounter nearly put the ranger down, but again they got lucky, and the warlord had the idea of putting the dragonborn in the back. He whined about that, right up until the point that 6 minions tried to loop around the back of the party and he had a hallway full of enemies to dragonbreath.

Fixing Commander's Strike did help, and I think the party is continuing to get lucky. We'll have to see how they do with the first couple of hobgoblin encounters before I make a final decision.

I think, right now, what my group is mainly doing is making a big selling point for Brutal weapons. Changing a 2d6 roll of 1/1 to 6/6 is marvelous for the fighter.

[Yakk]

I think, right now, what my group is mainly doing is making a big selling point for Brutal weapons. Changing a 2d6 roll of 1/1 to 6/6 is marvelous for the fighter.
Barring size-cheese, 2d6 brutal 1 is 2+2d5, mathematically. :-) It just sometimes takes extra rolls.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Seriously? That's weird. There's been a definite split in our group and most others I know - some prefer 4e to 3.5, but some don't, and getting them to play it just solidified the opinions of both.

Off topic I know, but I just have to agree with this, and it really sucks. About half of my group is enjoying 4e, while the other half wants to go back to 3.5. Not good...