The oracle never predicted Belkar's Death!

[Lkctgo]

Everyone, calm down about Belkar dying. Honestly, read through the comic. The oracle has never predicted Belkar's Death. He has merely made a passing remark to Roy several times about Belkar's Death.

Firstly, we know that the oracle is an ass, he most probably said that just for the amusement of seeing Roy's reaction to his words.

Secondly, the oracle has been known to be careless about seeing into the future. How would we know that the oracle has not overlooked something in his scrying.

For example, though he screwed Belkar over with his "LickMyOrangeBallsHalfing" village, he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Belkar would not receive a cure.

Another example would be that he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Roy forgot what he had saw after banishing Roy back to the upper planes.

Thirdly, the oracle has been known to give very obscure prophecies, his only true reference to Belkar's Death was that Belkar would draw his last breath by the end of the Year. For all we know, this could literally mean that Belkar gives up drawing breathes(I wonder how you actually draw breathes).

And Lastly, Belkar is a GOD. God's just don't die. (Yes, I know he isn't)

Sound Absurd yet Plausible, What does everyone else think?

[The Minx]

I think people have tried this way of getting around the prophecy before now. :smallsmile:

Happy holidays, incidentally. :smallwink:

[Lkctgo]

Well, we will all see in the end won't we! Belkar: As stubborn as he is Stone Cold Sexy.

Incidentally, Merry Christmas to you too Minx!

[Bayar]

Belkar is the shoeless GOD of war. Ergo, doesnt need to breathe.

'nuff said.

[T-O-E]

And Lastly, Belkar is a GOD. God's just don't die.

But they can be unmade.:smallamused:

[OOTS_Supporter]

:belkar:: I hope you have a Mery Christmas! (and by Merry Christams I mean sleep tight while I jump down the chimney to take your presents and stab you in your sleep)

I hope that is true, though.

OR, it could be Belkar's cousin, Belkar!

[Anonymous Man]

...No. just... No. Belkar doesn't have a cousin named belkar. but i am pretty sure that he will dye and become an intelligent undead monster due to the intervention of Tsutsiko, or whatever her name is. the thing is., belkar will then kill her 'cause he wanted to be a mummy, not a vampire.

[chionophile]

Everyone, calm down about Belkar dying. Honestly, read through the comic. The oracle has never predicted Belkar's Death. He has merely made a passing remark to Roy several times about Belkar's Death.


Did you miss this one? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) The fact that he's speaking in green means that he's doing a reading.

As for the "drawing his last breath" thing, I'm going to call an Occam's Razor on that one. We have to assume that the Oracle is referring to the popular phrase where "drawing a breath" means the same thing as "taking a breath" or "breathing". Of course, that doesn't mean that Belkar has to die. He could get himself turned into an undead or an elemental or a fish...

[MickJay]

Everyone, calm down about Belkar dying. Honestly, read through the comic. The oracle has never predicted Belkar's Death. He has merely made a passing remark to Roy several times about Belkar's Death.

Firstly, we know that the oracle is an ass, he most probably said that just for the amusement of seeing Roy's reaction to his words.

Secondly, the oracle has been known to be careless about seeing into the future. How would we know that the oracle has not overlooked something in his scrying.

For example, though he screwed Belkar over with his "LickMyOrangeBallsHalfing" village, he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Belkar would not receive a cure.

Another example would be that he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Roy forgot what he had saw after banishing Roy back to the upper planes.

Thirdly, the oracle has been known to give very obscure prophecies, his only true reference to Belkar's Death was that Belkar would draw his last breath by the end of the Year. For all we know, this could literally mean that Belkar gives up drawing breathes(I wonder how you actually draw breathes).

And Lastly, Belkar is a GOD. God's just don't die.

Sound Absurd yet Plausible, What does everyone else think?

Oracle might have been saying stuff to Roy for fun, but that kind of misleading would be at odds with both OOTS style in general, and with Oracle's previous behaviour as well (he might bend the truth, but he does not seem to lie).

We do not know if Oracle didn't see Belkar's Mark of Justice removed - even if he knew about it, it would be futile to fight against it; besides, the Oracle dies on a regular basis (it's not something overly dramatic for him), and Belkar's suffering prior to removal of MoJ was quite real - perhaps a sufficient revenge. Roy going away with the "extra" knowledge - this could have been either intentional, or irrelevant.

Whole pantheon of gods already died in the stickverse; plus, declaring that one is a god does not necessarily make that person a god.

The prophecy itself could be interpreted in a number of ways, but unless Belkar becomes undead, it seems he's pretty much done for.

edit: the statement by Oracle about Belkar "not being long for this world" seems to rule out the undead option - after all, undead ARE in "this" ("stick") world - all the zombies, skeletons (or Xykon for that matter) are part of the First Material Plane, or whatever it's called.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

In my noobly minded opinion, the oracle is known for smart ass answers (in his throne room, lol), so why would he all of a sudden be completely honest with this prediction?

Merry christmas, everybody.

[Istari]

so he becomes an outsider obbviously

[Porthos]

What does everyone else think?

I think that Belkar will be killed. And so do, I suspect, 95%+ of the posters on this forum.

As for the the Oracle being a smart-ass, I simply want to point out this little piece of "non-official" prophesy....

The Oracle predicted the whole Nale/Julia subplot even though he wasn't in a trance at the time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)

Belkar's going to die. Period. And all other arguments to the contrary are simply proving that Da Nile Ain't Just A River In Egypt. :smallamused:

[Kish]

Everyone, calm down about Belkar dying.
I promise, I'm perfectly calm about it.

And Belkar is going to die and not come back. Mark my words.

[Mollusk]

The oracle has never predicted Belkar's Death. He has merely made a passing remark to Roy several times about Belkar's Death.

yeah. the oracle just said that in passing to illustrate the reason for the memory charm, as if it were a hypothetical example.

but i'm with MickJay when he said:

Oracle might have been saying stuff to Roy for fun, but that kind of misleading would be at odds with both OOTS style in general, and with Oracle's previous behaviour as well (he might bend the truth, but he does not seem to lie).

and the way the oracle said it... seemed like authorial intrusion there.

Belkar really isn't going to make it back. :smalleek:

heck, he might be unwilling to.

[ericgrau]

He's not evil either, you know.

[NikkTheTrick]

He's not evil either, you know.
*SMACK*

Don't start that again :smallmad:

[Ulti]

Belkar isn't a god, if you're seriously suggesting it :smallwink:.

[Zeful]

Everyone, calm down about Belkar dying. Honestly, read through the comic. The oracle has never predicted Belkar's Death.Yes he did, several times.
He has merely made a passing remark to Roy several times about Belkar's Death.In a valley that erases all memory of what occurs in said valley, except for the prophecy you paid for.
Firstly, we know that the oracle is an ass, he most probably said that just for the amusement of seeing Roy's reaction to his words. There is also a no-save memory charm on the entire valley that erases all memory but the prophecy they paid for because the oracle rambles. He can chose to see the future at any time.
Secondly, the oracle has been known to be careless about seeing into the future. How would we know that the oracle has not overlooked something in his scrying.[quote]For example, though he screwed Belkar over with his "LickMyOrangeBallsHalfing" village, he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Belkar would not receive a cure.More like he didn't care that Belkar got cured he not just got the satisfication of triggering the GMoJ, he also removed any satisfication Belkar may have had for his revenge. Oracle: 2 Belkar:0
Another example would be that he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Roy forgot what he had saw after banishing Roy back to the upper planes.Again, he likely doesn't care. But I'm going to point out that the Oracle told Roy to leave before the Banishment, which could imply that Banishment is an unforseen and unknown bypass for the memory charm. If the Oracle assumes/knows it works on extraplanar beings leaving the Valley on their own, why would he think Roy's Banishment would be different?
Thirdly, the oracle has been known to give very obscure prophecies, his only true reference to Belkar's Death was that Belkar would draw his last breath by the end of the Year. For all we know, this could literally mean that Belkar gives up drawing breathes(I wonder how you actually draw breathes). Obsure, yes. Literal, NO.
And Lastly, Belkar is a GOD. God's just don't die.Belkar is at best a self-proclaimed God, which means nothing at all. Calling one's self a god and being a God or two very different things.
Sound Absurd yet Plausible, What does everyone else think?I think you may want to remove that "yet Plausible" part. Your evidence is weak at best and makes a lot of unprovable, and sometimes just plain wrong, assumptions. By the best evidence availble; Belkar will die, and he will stay dead.

[David Argall]

Everyone, calm down about Belkar dying. Honestly, read through the comic. The oracle has never predicted Belkar's Death. He has merely made a passing remark to Roy several times about Belkar's Death.
The Oracle's passing remarks have proved highly accurate to date.


Firstly, we know that the oracle is an ass, he most probably said that just for the amusement of seeing Roy's reaction to his words.
Maybe, but that does not mean he is in the least incorrect.


Secondly, the oracle has been known to be careless about seeing into the future. How would we know that the oracle has not overlooked something in his scrying.

For example, though he screwed Belkar over with his "LickMyOrangeBallsHalfing" village, he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Belkar would not receive a cure.
Another example would be that he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Roy forgot what he had saw after banishing Roy back to the upper planes.
As noted, he may have looked and not cared.

However, there is a difference between not looking and not knowing something will happen and looking and saying something will happen. The Oracle can forget to see if Roy actually forgets. But if he says Belkar is going to die, he has looked, and Belkar is doomed.



Thirdly, the oracle has been known to give very obscure prophecies,
Obscure, possibly. Deceptive, no. We get predictions like "He is called Xykon" and "in his throne room". Worthless maybe but clearly right. Nothing like "You will destroy a great empire if you go to war." So when he makes predictions about Belkar's death, he is not being cute. He is telling the truth. Belkar will die, maybe not how we are thinking, but he is not long for this world, and will be gone from the party soon.



his only true reference to Belkar's Death was that Belkar would draw his last breath by the end of the Year.
The very fact you talk about "true" reference shows you are suppressing most of the evidence. And we have plenty of evidence the unofficial references are valid.

We have additional evidence in W&XP Our writer explains the purpose of the Oracle in the story, which requires he be truthful and accurate. To have him be tricky is to challenge his very purpose in the story.


What does everyone else think?
That we have heard the same idea many times before, and rejected them as wishful thinking.

[Gmmaster42]

Well as we all know, gods don't need to breathe. So logically, as the sexy shoeless God of war, Belkar has no need to breathe. :smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness though, I think that he is more likely to become an outsider or an undead than be gone forever. Perhaps he will ascend to his godly throne in Archeron and rule the battlefield in his glory as the sexy shoeless God of war.

[MickJay]

Why is it that people don't read previous posts? Same arguments get repeated 3 times, if slightly re-worded...

[SoC175]

For example, though he screwed Belkar over with his "LickMyOrangeBallsHalfing" village, he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Belkar would not receive a cure.
Why should he have done so?

Another example would be that he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Roy forgot what he had saw after banishing Roy back to the upper planes.
Again, why should he have done so?

[Shpadoinkle]

Why is it that people don't read previous posts? Same arguments get repeated 3 times, if slightly re-worded...

It's a law of the internet.

If we could somehow harness the power of people getting frustrated, angry, tired, or exasperated by internet discussions that have been hashed and rehased and rerehashed and rererehashed, I do beleive it would be possible to provide everyone on Earth with as much energy as a nuclear power plant could produce while working at full capacity for 50 years, 24/7.

[Lkctgo]

Belkar isn't a god, if you're seriously suggesting it :smallwink:.

To Everyone who does not understand Fan Writing! It's obvious that Belkar is not a God! That is just a joke brought about by Belkar referring to himself as the "sexy shoeless God Of War"!!!

But thanks for asking anyway Ulti! Merry Christmas!

[Lkctgo]

Did you miss this one? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) The fact that he's speaking in green means that he's doing a reading.

As for the "drawing his last breath" thing, I'm going to call an Occam's Razor on that one. We have to assume that the Oracle is referring to the popular phrase where "drawing a breath" means the same thing as "taking a breath" or "breathing". Of course, that doesn't mean that Belkar has to die. He could get himself turned into an undead or an elemental or a fish...

Chionophile, I did not miss that reading, it seems obvious that he only did that for the Grandeur and Effect. He did not petition his Goddess Tiamat to allow him to see the future. Thus, that was no oracle reading, but more of an oracle shoots his mouth off with cool effects.

But Merry Christmas to You anyway!

[Kish]

Chionophile, I did not miss that reading, it seems obvious that he only did that for the Grandeur and Effect.
Slight amendment.

"It seems obvious to one who is looking for a way to deny that Belkar is going to die and not come back."

[Lkctgo]

Slight amendment.

"It seems obvious to one who is looking for a way to deny that Belkar is going to die and not come back."

Sorry, maybe I should have made myself clearer, I do not disparage whether or not it is a real prophecy! I merely meant to say that at that point in time, anything the oracle did was merely to add to the Grandeur and Effect of his statement! Whether or not it is a real prophecy is debatable.

And Kish, your attempt at sarcasm and scorn goes unnoticed with the Christmas cheer! Merry Christmas!

[Kish]

Sorry, maybe I should have made myself clearer, I do not disparage whether or not it is a real prophecy! I merely meant to say that at that point in time, anything the oracle did was merely to add to the Grandeur and Effect of his statement!

So the Oracle was lying when he said it was on the record so that Roy would remember it despite the memory charm?

That's an assertion you can't support either, y'know.


And Kish, your Putrid attempt at sarcasm and scorn goes unnoticed on Christmas only!

Dear me, I wonder what you would have said if you had noticed it. :smallwink:

I guess I'll find out when you read this thread tomorrow.

[Niley]

So the Oracle was lying when he said it was on the record so that Roy would remember it despite the memory charm?

Roy was not affected by the memory charm. He was banished to the Celestial Realm by the Oracle, but did not *walk* through the borders of the Sunken Valley, so the charm did not hit him.

[Zevox]

Previous posters (David Argall, Zeful, and Kish especially) seem to have said most of what I wanted to say, so I'll just give a couple comments.


Another example would be that he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Roy forgot what he had saw after banishing Roy back to the upper planes.
That's not the Oracle being careless in his future scrying, though, that's him making an assumption and not bothering to check to make sure he was correct. (Or alternatively, maybe he knew what would happen, and wanted Roy to remember everything for some reason - we really don't know.)

Also note two important facts:

- The whole reason the Oracle has the memory charm in place in the first place is to prevent people from remembering his offhand comments. This strongly implies they are just as accurate as his "official" predictions, making his remarks about Belkar being "not long for this world," that he "shouldn't bother to fund his IRA," and the like just as strong an indication of his death as the "official" prediction.
- We know for a fact that the Oracle does not need to enter his trance to peer into the future, since he did not need to do so to read the future translations of Haley's garbled speech during their first visit.This further reinforces the previous point about his offhand remarks being as accurate as his "official" prophecies.

Long story short, I find this attempt to reinterpret the Oracle's words to make it seem as though Belkar will not actually die no more convincing than any other. As far as I'm concerned, he will die, it's just a question of when. I wish this weren't the case, as he's my favorite character, but the evidence says he will, so I'm stuck with it.

Zevox

[littlequietguy]

Another example would be that he did not bother to scry into the future to ensure Roy forgot what he had saw after banishing Roy back to the upper planes.



He did that on purpose actually. I have no proof but it just seems normal trope-wise for a demi-god to pretend that the heroes actually know something he doesn't

[Lkctgo]

So the Oracle was lying when he said it was on the record so that Roy would remember it despite the memory charm?

That's an assertion you can't support either, y'know.




And as for this point Kish, are you joking? Or did you actually believe what you said? Roy only remembered the event "despite the memory charm" because he was banished back to the upper realms, not because the "mighty" oracle put it on record.

Ooh Look, Assertion Supported!


Dear me, I wonder what you would have said if you had noticed it. :smallwink:

I guess I'll find out when you read this thread tomorrow.

Now Kish, stop behaving like a little kid who wants to pick a fight. If you wish to pick an argument for the sake of it, why not head down to arguments.com. They provide argument partners at a reasonable price! Again I reply, Merry Christmas Kish(alias Ebenzer Scrooge)!

[Lkctgo]

Previous posters (David Argall, Zeful, and Kish especially) seem to have said most of what I wanted to say, so I'll just give a couple comments.


That's not the Oracle being careless in his future scrying, though, that's him making an assumption and not bothering to check to make sure he was correct. (Or alternatively, maybe he knew what would happen, and wanted Roy to remember everything for some reason - we really don't know.)

Also note two important facts:

- The whole reason the Oracle has the memory charm in place in the first place is to prevent people from remembering his offhand comments. This strongly implies they are just as accurate as his "official" predictions, making his remarks about Belkar being "not long for this world," that he "shouldn't bother to fund his IRA," and the like just as strong an indication of his death as the "official" prediction.
- We know for a fact that the Oracle does not need to enter his trance to peer into the future, since he did not need to do so to read the future translations of Haley's garbled speech during their first visit.This further reinforces the previous point about his offhand remarks being as accurate as his "official" prophecies.

Long story short, I find this attempt to reinterpret the Oracle's words to make it seem as though Belkar will not actually die no more convincing than any other. As far as I'm concerned, he will die, it's just a question of when. I wish this weren't the case, as he's my favorite character, but the evidence says he will, so I'm stuck with it.

Zevox

I completely agree with you!
Let me tell you a secret Zevox, I believe he is going to die as well, but i am merely pointing out the ways in which the oracle's words could be circumvented, nothing else!

Merry Christmas to you!

[jamroar]

And as for this point Kish, are you joking? Or did you actually believe what you said? Roy only remembered the event "despite the memory charm" because he was banished back to the upper realms, not because the "mighty" oracle put it on record.

Ooh Look, Assertion Supported!

No, he gave Roy a free official prophecy about Belkar to confirm its validity and to make sure Roy remembers it after he leaves (he even says so explicitly). This is because the memory charm specifically does not block memories of official Oracle prophecies given during a visit.

Roy remembers some extra potentially useful things that happened in the tower as a result of being dismissed, (why Belkar's MOJ was set off, among a few other things), but they have nothing to do with the prophecy (which he would have remembered anyway), and it's unknown if this was the Oracle's intent, oversight, or something he deemed of no consequence.

[Kish]

No, he gave Roy a free official prophecy about Belkar to confirm its validity and to make sure Roy remembers it after he leaves (he even says so explicitly). This is because the memory charm specifically does not block memories of official Oracle prophecies given during a visit.
Indeed. Both Niley and Lkctgo seem to have confused "the Oracle stated he made the prophecy of Belkar's death on the record so Roy would remember it" with "the only reason Roy remembers the prophecy is because it was on the record." One is a statement about Roy's memory, the other about the Oracle's intent. (As it turned out, Roy would remember the prophecy even if the Oracle hadn't done it on the record, but that's incidental to the reason the Oracle floated and used the lights.)

[Lkctgo]

No, he gave Roy a free official prophecy about Belkar to confirm its validity and to make sure Roy remembers it after he leaves (he even says so explicitly). This is because the memory charm specifically does not block memories of official Oracle prophecies given during a visit.


Indeed. Both Niley and Lkctgo seem to have confused "the Oracle stated he made the prophecy of Belkar's death on the record so Roy would remember it" with "the only reason Roy remembers the prophecy is because it was on the record." One is a statement about Roy's memory, the other about the Oracle's intent. (As it turned out, Roy would remember the prophecy even if the Oracle hadn't done it on the record, but that's incidental to the reason the Oracle floated and used the lights.)

Well then, it seems that Roy had two reasons for remembering the prophecy.
1. He was given a free Prophecy, allowing him to remember the words on Belkar's death!
2. He was banished to the Upper Planes, thereby negating the oracle's effect anyway!
Thanks for clearing that up Noble Jamroar, and thanks to to you Kish for clearing up what you meant to say!

Merry Christmas to both of you!

[SoC175]

Being a ghost the memory charm would have failed to affect Roy anyway. The oracle would know that

[Ramien]

No, he gave Roy a free official prophecy about Belkar to confirm its validity and to make sure Roy remembers it after he leaves (he even says so explicitly). This is because the memory charm specifically does not block memories of official Oracle prophecies given during a visit.

Roy remembers some extra potentially useful things that happened in the tower as a result of being dismissed, (why Belkar's MOJ was set off, among a few other things), but they have nothing to do with the prophecy (which he would have remembered anyway), and it's unknown if this was the Oracle's intent, oversight, or something he deemed of no consequence.

It has to be something he at least knows about. Otherwise his lizardfolk allies would never remember when it's time to come and resurrect him again.

[vbushido]

Offhand remark that turned out to be entirely true: "I haven't got all day and the two of you are running late for a pair of family reunions." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html) :smallamused:

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Has anyone ever wondered if this world might just not be fatalistic and that since Roy now knows that Belkar will die he can stop it?

If there exist free will and we are able to make our own choices then all predictions of the future are based upon plausibility not facts.

So Belkar might die, but remember. Predictions are like weather reports, often wrong :smallwink:

Edit: Even if The Oracle has never been wrong before. The argument still holds.

[Zeful]

Has anyone ever wondered if this world might just not be fatalistic and that since Roy now knows that Belkar will die he can stop it?

If there exist free will and we are able to make our own choices then all predictions of the future are based upon plausibility not facts.

So Belkar might die, but remember. Predictions are like weather reports, often wrong :smallwink:

Edit: Even if The Oracle has never been wrong before. The argument still holds.

But will one's actions in attempting to subvert the prophecy fulfill it?

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Could be, I'm in no way saying that Belkar will live because of this posibility.
But it's a valid way of having Belkar live. The prophecy was in the end wrong, not a lie, but wrong.

In all literature that concerns prophecies this is a factor that must be counted on. The free will can mess up any prediction no matter how powerful a being that made it.

[Zeful]

In all literature that concerns prophecies this is a factor that must be counted on. The free will can mess up any prediction no matter how powerful a being that made it.

That's not as accurate as you make it seem. Often times predictions in literature are very carefully worded to give the illusion of free will, so that the effected may try to "fight fate" as it were. The fact that they failed isn't so much a lack of free will, but the act of a deceptive Seer. The Oracle could be setting up Roy to insure Belkar's death by including wording to make it seem like the prophecy isn't set in stone.

A nebulous future is more dangerous in the hands of a smart Seer, because they can see the effect of their words before they say anything, and thus can choose the future that happens.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

One name: Asimov.

But you are right the oracle could be setting things up to have Roy kill Belkar by telling hem he's going to die or because of something else. But what if The Orcle predicted that and Roy who is now a bit wiser about how the oracle works( since he can rememer him) does in fact not tell Belkar or do the thing the Oracle thought he would do. And then Belkar lives.

Or the Oracle knew that Roy would rememeber and gave him the info because he wants Belkar to live( might be that Belkar is needed to beat the snarl).

[Sequinox]

...

I'm not a master debater, unlike David Argall or Zeful, so I may not have the strongest points ever, but...

1. Didn't the Oracle predict it? (Spoke in green and stuff) (It was something like, "Okay, fine, I'll say it officially. Belkar will draw his last breath - EVER - within a year." While I do like the new Belkar, I have a feeling that it's true and there are no strings attached. Or he could mean that, metaphorically, Belkar will change enough to be no longer considered himself. This could happen (and if this is the case, I think we've seen it happen already), but I doubt this is that and that is this.

2. My theory: Rich is going to kill Belkar off and he hinted at it constantly, so that we the readers constantly wonder and cause all of this discussion. Then Belkar's going to die and we're all going to go, "OH NOEZ! HE'Z TEH DEAD!"

My one cent on the matter. (Not enough to be two cents :smallbiggrin:)

[OOTS_Supporter]

Anyway, I have a question for everyone:

We all know that Belkar may or may not die(probably the latter), but who would replace him? You can't have a five member OOTS!

I'm betting on another evil guy like Belkar, or Celia.

[Zevox]

You can't have a five member OOTS!
...and why on earth not?

I'm fully expecting Belkar will die, not be resurrected, and the Order will simply go on without him. I see no reason for him to be replaced.

Zevox

[runekiri]

I think Belkar will be replaced with a tracker who can actually track.

(Even though i hope The Giant has some plan on how to keep Belkar alive, or turn him into some kind of undead or whatever).

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

...and why on earth not?

I'm fully expecting Belkar will die, not be resurrected, and the Order will simply go on without him. I see no reason for him to be replaced.

Zevox


And why on earth would he not be replaced?

I think that either he will live( probably but I would not be suprised if he died) and everything will be back to the way it began( sort of, but not at all).

Or he dies and then he will eventually be replaced. Probably not by Celia since one relationship is enough in the group.

[Zevox]

And why on earth would he not be replaced?
It's quite late in the story to introduce an all-new PC, especially in the place of a beloved character like Belkar, and there are no readily-available NPCs who could replace him. With Miko dead, the most well-developed NPCs allied with Order are Hinjo and arguably Celia, and neither of them would join. Hinjo has his responsibilities to his Kingdom which would prevent it, and Celia being a pacifist would not want to travel with an adventuring group.

And there's simply no reason they'd have to. There is no hard-and-fast rule setting the Order's size at 6, and let's be honest, Belkar's role as a melee warrior is pretty well covered by Roy and Durkon anyway (and to a lesser extent now Elan, since he has been becoming halfway competent lately). It's not like he actually contributes something to the group no one else does, considering his Ranger skills are all but nonexistent, so he really wouldn't need to be replaced anyway.

Zevox

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

That's a good argument.
I'm not sure I belive it to be like that, but a good argument non the less :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

As many have said before, "Last breath - ever" doesn't necessarily mean removal from the comic. It also doesn't mean he'll die before resolving this Xykon/Snarl business.

And bypassing the memory charm served another useful purpose - he's the only member of the Order that actually knows the Oracle is a kobold now.

[Green-Shirt Q]

War and XPs Spoilers
Not only did the Oracle predict it, but Rich said Belkar would die. He said it in bonus commentary of the book.

Get over it. He's a goner eventually.

[Kish]

I think Belkar will die (permanently) so late in the story that replacing him never even comes up, unless Rich wants to make a joke about it.

[Rotipher]

- The whole reason the Oracle has the memory charm in place in the first place is to prevent people from remembering his offhand comments. This strongly implies they are just as accurate as his "official" predictions, making his remarks about Belkar being "not long for this world," that he "shouldn't bother to fund his IRA," and the like just as strong an indication of his death as the "official" prediction.

Isn't it also possible that he meant it to conceal his offhand comments about other people's predictions? We know that the Oracle only permits one question to a customer, yet he repeatedly talks about his other client's requests (e.g. the guy who died of a predicted heart attack) in the course of his grousing. If he allowed visitors to remember sideline comments like that, he'd be giving away information they hadn't paid for.

[Selene]

With Miko dead, the most well-developed NPCs allied with Order are Hinjo and arguably Celia, and neither of them would join.

O'Chul?

And yeah, Belkar is totally going to die. The alternative being a non-breathing, non-birthday-cake-eating creature who is not in this world, and does not need his IRA.

[YezVeeKahn]

First of all, Belkar isn't going to die, This isn't that kind of comic.

Instead, this is going to be a literary device that will create a climactic amount of hilarity in its resolution and will also save the party. If I had to guess and put myself in Rich's head, I woulld create a scenario where belkar does indeed die - for instance, let's say he is sucked into the rift, but that somehow, in doing so, becomes an actual God or similarly powerful non-corporeal being. Then, he is the same Belkar we all know and love (and in some cases practically worship -- he should have a spin-off comic immediately)... He would still be Belkar, but also be an all powerful deity or what have you. Then he would save the party and you can just imagine the sort of ludicrous hilarity that Belkar, with superpowers would commit in this plot line.

If I had to think of something ridiculously clever, it would be this, it fulfills the prophecy, since he wouldn't have to breathe and also, he would no longer be in this world. If I nailed this Rich, do I get a cookie?

[factotum]

If you were the first person to think of it, maybe, but the suggestion that Belkar fulfils the prediction by becoming an ACTUAL Sexy Shoeless God of War has been made before, many times.

[Psiwave]

Is it not possable that belkar has already 'drawn his last breath' in a metaphorical sense? and that what we are witnessing is the rebirth of a new belkar, albeit one that is possably slightly more evil and scary than the old.
I'm not a fan of belkar as such, but I do think he needs to stay. The strip needs someone who is not to locked up in their own personal story to provide some humor and occasionally take a wreaking ball to the fourth wall.

[OOTS_Supporter]

First of all, Belkar isn't going to die, This isn't that kind of comic.

Instead, this is going to be a literary device that will create a climactic amount of hilarity in its resolution and will also save the party. If I had to guess and put myself in Rich's head, I woulld create a scenario where belkar does indeed die - for instance, let's say he is sucked into the rift, but that somehow, in doing so, becomes an actual God or similarly powerful non-corporeal being. Then, he is the same Belkar we all know and love (and in some cases practically worship -- he should have a spin-off comic immediately)... He would still be Belkar, but also be an all powerful deity or what have you. Then he would save the party and you can just imagine the sort of ludicrous hilarity that Belkar, with superpowers would commit in this plot line.

If I had to think of something ridiculously clever, it would be this, it fulfills the prophecy, since he wouldn't have to breathe and also, he would no longer be in this world. If I nailed this Rich, do I get a cookie?

So are you telling me Miko and Therkla did not pernamenlty (mostly) die? What do you mean by "not this type of comic"? SoD was dark, and there are sad moments in this comic.

Rich said that he will die in one of his books, and he is not going to answer your question.

[YezVeeKahn]

meh...

not impressed.

so you're basically saying that a main character is going to die and this story is going to get super dark all the sudden... Miko and Therkla were story line fodder, Belkar is like the trickster God of this comic, without a murderous clown, this comic would be somewhat inane.

Listen, If Rich *Really* does kill Belkar, no twists or angles, and his death is not ridiculously funny and he doesn't come back in a major way, I will get on youtube and eat my shorts.

It would be a complete waste of potential for what is otherwise the best web comic of all time.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Could be that he dies and we get to see him sitting in some afterlife having a blast.
That would keep him in the comic.
But he would not breathe or be in this world?
He might be eating cake tough.

[OOTS_Supporter]

meh...

not impressed.

so you're basically saying that a main character is going to die and this story is going to get super dark all the sudden... Miko and Therkla were story line fodder, Belkar is like the trickster God of this comic, without a murderous clown, this comic would be somewhat inane.

Listen, If Rich *Really* does kill Belkar, no twists or angles, and his death is not ridiculously funny and he doesn't come back in a major way, I will get on youtube and eat my shorts.

It would be a complete waste of potential for what is otherwise the best web comic of all time.

1. If a character dies, it is not Super Dark. See: Final Fantasy

2. IT was not exactly fluffy clouds and rainbows. THere are a few dark moments and sad omoments

3. Story LIne Fodder? Miko played a MAJOR role in the story, not as much as the OOTS, but a major role. She, as well as THerkla, fleshed out characters and were important to the plot, as half of the Island Arc would not exist without Therkla, and they would not even known about the gates or anything without Miko.

4. He will die in a funny way. His ghost might come down and be Belkar without the killing but the funny remarks.

5. One of the reasosn this Webcomic is great is because it can be funny while still having an epic, somewhat dark, sad, and cool storyline. Belkar would take away a lot, but for no reason would it ruin the comic.

[Keris]

Instead, this is going to be a literary device that will create a climactic amount of hilarity in its resolution and will also save the party. If I had to guess and put myself in Rich's head, I woulld create a scenario where belkar does indeed die - for instance, let's say he is sucked into the rift, but that somehow, in doing so, becomes an actual God or similarly powerful non-corporeal being. Then, he is the same Belkar we all know and love (and in some cases practically worship -- he should have a spin-off comic immediately)... He would still be Belkar, but also be an all powerful deity or what have you. Then he would save the party and you can just imagine the sort of ludicrous hilarity that Belkar, with superpowers would commit in this plot line.


Without a murderous clown, this comic would be somewhat inane.

Technically, having Belkar run amok for the remainder of the comic would make the comic inane. [/nitpick]

But it seems exceedingly likely that Belkar will die. His recent character "growth" can be seen as the Pride before a Fall, he becomes more secure in his position as a major character, then gets killed. The oracles prophesies have all been accurate so far, and his random comments have a similar track record.

Regarding you "This isn't that kind of comic" comment, it is. The comic has become a lot darker as it progressed, and character deaths are a lot more likely. I mean, if you said around comic 442 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) that Roy would survive, it would seem a lot more likely than Belkar's survival now.

[Selene]

so you're basically saying that a main character is going to die

Yep.


and this story is going to get super dark all the sudden...

Death drives the entire plot (and the subplots, and most of the side quests). We are on a mission to fulfill Eugene's blood oath of vengeance, sworn because the undead monstrosity murdered his mentor. The undead monstrosity and his evil sidekick are trying to unleash a "god-killing abomination" in order to remake the world to his liking (or to Xykon's, depending whom you ask). Meanwhile, we've been entangled in a regicide, a war, and the whole Kubota mess. This is not dark to you? Funny and Dark are not mutually exclusive (see dark humor).


Listen, If Rich *Really* does kill Belkar, no twists or angles, and his death is not ridiculously funny and he doesn't come back in a major way, I will get on youtube and eat my shorts.

Just quoting this so I can find it in the future.

[Hailfire]

Just a thought; what if there was a kind of 'replay' of the original sealing of the gates (thingy), since there are only 2 gates left. Belkar IS part barbarian...

[Tredrick]

The OP is technically correct. The best kind of correct! The oracle never states that Belkar will die. He merely makes a bunch of euphemisms about it.

Didn't we just have a comic about that a few months ago?

Regarding the Speed With Which One Removes Band-Aids (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html)

Could Rich be having Belkar himself mock the people misreading/ignoring the euphemisms? Nah! That would simply be awesome beyond words.

The only acceptable dodge on Belkar dying would be for him to be declared legally dead. That could technically fulfill all the predictions and would be funny as heck.

[fangthane]

Bureaucrat Tredrick, you are hereby demoted to rank 29. Legal death declarations have nothing to do with breathing, eating birthday cake nor participation in the world. Though, granted, they'd probably reduce his ability to cash an IRA so it'd resolve that comment at least. You're right that the OP is technically correct in saying the oracle's never explicitly said "Belkar will die within an in-comic year and never come back" in so many words; therein lies the wiggle room for Rich to work his magic.

I tend to think Belkar's going to die but that it'll be something unexpected; the trouble is that we've got a bright bunch here who've scoped out most of the rational possibilities, a somewhat less bright bunch who've cherrypicked which predictions and comments should be taken literally and which figuratively and may Hell have mercy on any who disagree, and a bunch who just want to enjoy the comic. To the first group, I'll say I hope we're all disappointed in our predictions' accuracy as we're delighted by Rich's innovation. To the second, I'll say that you should consider the possibility that not everyone agrees with your assessment. To the third, I'll say that I hope the Giant makes some time to get a new one done up because I'm jonesing big-time. :smallbiggrin:

[Nerdanel]

The only way Belkar can avoid dying is if he is transformed (without technically dying in the process) into a suitable non-living form (such as a construct) before the end of the in-comic year AND if he also gets planeshifted somewhere.

I think Belkar will simply die and never be brought back as a mortal halfling. He might come back as something else, but we'll see...

[Lord Zentei]

so you're basically saying that a main character is going to die and this story is going to get super dark all the sudden... Miko and Therkla were story line fodder, Belkar is like the trickster God of this comic, without a murderous clown, this comic would be somewhat inane.

Without a murderous clown, the comic would be perfectly fine, since Rich seems quite capable of making jokes that revolve around other characters. This comic includes Belkar as a major character, it is not about Belkar, at least not more than any of the five other major characters and thus far arguably less than at least three of them (these being Roy, Haley and Elan).

As an aside, I'm not sure what you mean by Therka and Miko being "story line fodder". Just there to advance the plot? Not a minor role then, going by the level of influence caused by Miko certainly; or do you mean something else? :smallconfused:


Listen, If Rich *Really* does kill Belkar, no twists or angles, and his death is not ridiculously funny and he doesn't come back in a major way, I will get on youtube and eat my shorts.

I'll hold you to that. :smallamused:


It would be a complete waste of potential for what is otherwise the best web comic of all time.

Pretty heavy statements there. :smallwink:

[Tredrick]

Bureaucrat Tredrick, you are hereby demoted to rank 29. Legal death declarations have nothing to do with breathing, eating birthday cake nor participation in the world. Though, granted, they'd probably reduce his ability to cash an IRA so it'd resolve that comment at least. You're right that the OP is technically correct in saying the oracle's never explicitly said "Belkar will die within an in-comic year and never come back" in so many words; therein lies the wiggle room for Rich to work his magic.


If Belkar is legally dead then Belkar cannot eat birthday cake or breathe. He is dead. Go ahead and check what dead people can legally do. Dead people do not have birthdays, thus they do not eat cake. Should a person declared legally dead eat cake on the day they were born on, well, that cannot happen. I mean, they are dead in the eyes of the law. No more birthdays.

Dead people breathe? Certainly not in the eyes of the law.

Any good bureaucrat knows that dead people cannot do any of those things. Even if it is just a technicality. The law is the law is the law and the law is dead people are dead in the eyes of the law.

My biggest worry is that all the speculation and theorizing leads Rich to go Hideki Anno on us and change everything about the ending just because he is upset we are picking is work apart.

I can see Belkar surviving on a ridiculous technicality like mine, Haley and Elan dying but getting to spend eternity together (Elan's happy ending) and Vaarsuvius obtaining ultimate arcane power and ruling the world and ordering defined genders erased.

Roy would, of course, be killed in finally fulfilling the blood oath and spend a happy afterlife with his brother. Durkon is killed, brought back to life and then set about rebuilding the dwarven lands which he helped destroy as an undead minion of Xykon.