I think I found a way to houserule Mr Scruffy's grapple

[King of Nowhere]

Clearly, under the books, a cat couldn't disrupt a spellcaster by grappling him, since he has a -8 size penalty to grapple, plus a strength penalty. Also, a DC 20 concentration is not difficult for a spellcaster of Tsukiko's level. So it clearly is a form of houseruling. I think I found a decent way to rule it:

Premise: cat's agility (natural feat for cats)
A cat can apply his dex modifier, instead of the str modifier, to every climb and grapple check.

Cat grappling
This is a modified form of grappling that a cat can use on a creature bigger than him. The cat jumps on the creature, biting and scratching it, but avoiding that creature's attempt to take him.
It works like a grapple attempt, but no size modifiers are involved, both from the cat and the creature's part. The cat can deal damage without making checks, and he can also get free from the fight automatically if he wants (tecnically the cat is grappling but is not grappled). The grappled creature cannot use escape artist to get free from the fight (the cat is on its body, running away isn't doing any good). The grappled creature can still move at half its speed, and it can even fight with some penalty (I'm not about to decide what they should be). The cat is particularly distracting, so casting spells in that case is harder than casting in a normal grapple attempt (concentration DC 20+2*damage taken in the last round+spell level), but on the upper hand a spellcaster can try to cast spells with a somatic component (a cat is not enough to prevent you from moving, but the extra difficulty adds 5 to the DC).
The grappled creature can make grappling checks against the cat (always using no size modifier) to take a grip on him. A success means that the creature have a grip on the cat. From now on, the cat looses his advantages and the fight becomes a normal grappling (WITH size modifiers).

This explain how Mr Scruffy could defeat Tsukiko (he probably has a higher dex than the normal cat, and he has a BAB as an animal companion (or cat with levels, if you prefer), while Tsukiko has low grappling. Also, the DC for concentration is high enough even for a 13th level caster). This also explain why a cat can grapple a normal person and cutting him severely for a while before said person can grab him, at that point the cat is pretty much screwed.

Any toughts?

[Querzis]

Any toughts?

Just that hes not grappling them. A grapple is seizing someone in a grip:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grapple

A grapple imply that someone is incapaciting you by holding your arms and feet and that you are struggling to push him back. What is important in a grapple is strength and seize.

Cats arent trying to grapple you, they are just clinging to your face! Every spellcaster mister Scruffy attacked could have still used spell...but just if they put lots of point in concentration because a cat to the face hurt a lot. A cat can cling to you BECAUSE hes small (the claws help too). Just imagine a human who use his swords to climb the back of a dragon. How can the dragon get rid of him without hurting or exposing himself? Its that same thing with Mister Scruffy. Whats important when you try to cling to a creature is dexterity and size except that this time the smaller you are, the better it is.

So the problem here is that there is no rule in D&D about clinging to a creature which is stupid since its the only realistic way to kill a very big creature with a melee attacker (you wont make me believe I killed that titans by attacking his ankle. If I used my sword to climb and get to his neck though thats another story.)

Beside, OOTS is a comic based on D&D but Rich usually get rid of anything that doesnt make any sense. And if you ever saw a cat attack a human then you know that being big really dont help against a cat in real life.

[King of Nowhere]

In fact, that's exactly what I had in mind. I just tryed a way to rule that concept.

[kpenguin]

So the problem here is that there is no rule in D&D about clinging to a creature which is stupid since its the only realistic way to kill a very big creature with a melee attacker (you wont make me believe I killed that titans by attacking his ankle. If I used my sword to climb and get to his neck though thats another story.)

You know, there are areas around your ankle that cause tremendous amounts of bleeding if cut...

[vbushido]

By D&D rules, what Mr. Scruffy did to Tsukiko wasn't a grapple anyway. It was a thrown at her. Cats normally get 2 claws & a bite attack each round. The Giant just cinematically portrayed Mr. Scruffy doing this in midair. As an animal companion, he'd get +4 hit dice, +4 to AC, +2 to STR & DEX, and Devotion. And I've seen plenty of stupid spellcasters that didn't sink ranks in Concentration, so they'd sweat a paper cut. And it's DC 10+damage+level of spell cast to make a concentration check, if interrupted by an attack.

I suppose a generous GM could houserule a cat-sized pounce attack, in which case you could add a rake onto everything else.

And anyone who has ever stepped on tacks or a bunch of d4s can tell you how a lot of damage can be taken below the ankle.

[T-O-E]

The Rule of Funny trumps the Rules of DnD.

[ericgrau]

Hmm, DC 12ish concentration checks, even with the str bonus from being an animal companion. Maybe scruffy used his bonus HD to get some better anti-caster feats. With his super low damage, at least 12 AB (7 BAB + dex), and the low AC of casters, power attack would be well worth it. I just checked the feat description and it says you can PA with a light weapon if it's a natural weapon.

You could also rule that it's a DC 15 check for violent motion, on account of having a friggin' cat on your face.

[Devils_Advocate]

Complete Warrior. Giantbane tactical feat. Climb Aboard. Lets you climb onto creatures at least two size categories larger than you.

You really shouldn't need a special feat to climb onto a larger creature. Without the feat, it should be a high climb DC, though, unless the larger creature is immobilized or willing.

Anyway, throwing Mr. Scruffy onto someone (ranged touch attack?) presumably should give him the benefits of using this (you move with the creature, it takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls against you, it needs to make a grapple check opposed by your Climb check to get you off).

He probably has the feat anyway.

[tigerhawkvok]

Inspired by this thread, I came up with a set of "cling" rules.



Ability: Cling

Cling is a new ability that functions similarly to a grapple check. You can only use cling if you are at least two size categories smaller than your opponent.

To initiate cling, make a cling vs. repel check. A cling check is 1d20+(dex modifier)+(base attack bonus)+(size modifier), with a +5 circumstance bonus for each light slashing or piercing weapon used. The size modifier used is +4 for each size category smaller than your opponent. This opposed by a repel check. A repel check is 1d20+(AC modifier). For example, a (tiny) cat vs. a colossal gold dragon would have a cling modifier of (2+0+7x4+2x5 = +40) vs. a repel modifier of +32 for the dragon.

Every round, the larger opponent may spend a move action making a new repel check, at which time the clinging party makes another cling check at a +2 bonus. While something is clinging to you, you may act normally. However, all concentration checks you make take a -5 penalty, and you provoke attacks of opportunity from a clinging opponent as if they were adjacent to you. If the opponent has attacked you since the end of your last turn while clinging to you, and you make a concentration check, you take an additional -10 penalty.

While clinging, you may move at ¼ speed after making a DC 15 balance check, increasing the balance check by 5 for each ¼ speed increment you wish to move faster. Moving this way takes a standard action, unless the balance check is completed at a -5 penalty, in which case this is a move action. This penalty, and your movement speed, must be announced before making your balance check. Failure by 4 or less means you do not move, and failure by 5 or more grants your opponent a free repel check.

While clinging, you do not count as threatening an adjacent square for the purposes of flanking. While clinging, attacks can be made with light weapons against the opponent, treating them as flatfooted. For attacks made with a non-light or ranged weapon, make a DC 20 balance check. On a success, you may attack as normal. On a failure, you cannot make an attack and your opponent gets a free repel check. Spellcasting requires a DC20 concentration check, with a failure “fizzling” the spell.

Dismounting requires a DC15 +2 per size category of the opponent jump or tumble check (player discretion). Faliure indicates falling damage from the height of the larger opponent. Success enables you to rebound appropriately against the larger opponent's body to negate falling damage.


I think that's pretty balanced, and makes sense .... you shouldn't need a feat to do this! What do you guys think? I'm not actually suggesting that this is what Giant used, but I think it has play value ...

[edit: minor fixes; edit2: duh, AC has dex built in.]

[awibs]

I really like the idea of a set of rules for clinging.

The whole point of the grapple rules is based around trying to quantify a wrestling-type action. Size penalty makes sense to a point... that point being where one is no longer trying to redirect the limbs or general body mass of your opponent. When grappling with another humanoid-shaped creature IRL, you might be, for example, trying to pushing back one of their arms which they are trying to choke/punch/stab you with. So size penalty matters when translating to rules. In the case of a cat clinging to your face, the problem is not that you aren't strong enough, with your size advantage, to peel back one of the cats limbs. Of COURSE your arm is umpteenth times stronger than the cat's forepaw. The problem is the thing's claws are sunk into you and causes damage coming back out, and gets such a "pain and distraction bonus," as it were, you can't think straight enough to locate and get ahold of it's limbs, and has four gripping limbs and a biting mouth where you only have two hands which can't herd all the pointy bits at once, and has such ridiculous agility it just keeps on rearranging where it's claws and teeth are.

I totally agree with your setup. Repelling should be all dexterity. Anything small enough to cling to you is de facto nowhere near a match in brute strength, therefore, it's merely a matter of getting ahold of the bastard.

Ooh! What about a bonus to clinging if the clinger had claws and/or penalty for lack therof?

A thief not equipped with grappling hooks should not be able to cling as well as a cat with claws, and neither for that matter, should a cat without claws. That's not saying they can't cling at all. Experience has shown me that a sufficiently motivated declawed cat, (say, one frightened by a dog) can still climb straight up a standing person and ensconce themselves firmly on the top of said person's head.

[tigerhawkvok]

Ooh! What about a bonus to clinging if the clinger had claws and/or penalty for lack therof?

A thief not equipped with grappling hooks should not be able to cling as well as a cat with claws, and neither for that matter, should a cat without claws. That's not saying they can't cling at all. Experience has shown me that a sufficiently motivated declawed cat, (say, one frightened by a dog) can still climb straight up a standing person and ensconce themselves firmly on the top of said person's head.

That's what my bit about +5 bonus per light weapon is. Claws, small daggers, hooks, etc. all are light slashing/piercing weapons for the purpose of combat, and you can use them as climby tools. So, two claws = +10 bonus, one dagger = +5 bonus, etc.

Hmm, looks like I said "light or piercing" rather than "light slashing or piercing". Lemme fix that.

Glad you like the rules!

[Decahedral Tofu]

For consideration of tools, consider the equivalent tools used in climbing. A rope with a grappling hook is going to help you more than a small knife, but a pair of claw blades will be even more useful.

[King of Nowhere]

Ability: Cling

Cling is a new ability that functions similarly to a grapple check. You can only use cling if you are at least two size categories smaller than your opponent.

To initiate cling, make a cling vs. repel check. A cling check is 1d20+(dex modifier)+(base attack bonus)+(size modifier), with a +5 circumstance bonus for each light slashing or piercing weapon used. The size modifier used is +4 for each size category smaller than your opponent. This opposed by a repel check. A repel check is 1d20+(AC modifier)+(dex modifier). For example, a (tiny) cat vs. a colossal gold dragon would have a cling modifier of (2+0+7x4+2x5 = +40) vs. a repel modifier of (32+0=32) for the dragon.

Every round, the larger opponent may spend a move action making a new repel check, at which time the clinging party makes another cling check at a +2 bonus. While something is clinging to you, you may act normally. However, all concentration checks you make take a -5 penalty, and you provoke attacks of opportunity from a clinging opponent as if they were adjacent to you. If the opponent has attacked you since the end of your last turn while clinging to you, and you make a concentration check, you take an additional -10 penalty.

While clinging, you may move at ¼ speed after making a DC 15 balance check, increasing the balance check by 5 for each ¼ speed increment you wish to move faster. Moving this way takes a standard action, unless the balance check is completed at a -5 penalty, in which case this is a move action. This penalty, and your movement speed, must be announced before making your balance check. Failure by 4 or less means you do not move, and failure by 5 or more grants your opponent a free repel check.

While clinging, you do not count as threatening an adjacent square for the purposes of flanking. While clinging, attacks can be made with light weapons against the opponent, treating them as flatfooted. For attacks made with a non-light or ranged weapon, make a DC 20 balance check. On a success, you may attack as normal. On a failure, you cannot make an attack and your opponent gets a free repel check. Spellcasting requires a DC20 concentration check, with a failure “fizzling” the spell.

Dismounting requires a DC15 +2 per size category of the opponent jump or tumble check (player discretion). Faliure indicates falling damage from the height of the larger opponent. Success enables you to rebound appropriately against the larger opponent's body to negate falling damage.

This is phrased much better than my rule, and have some significant enhancements, but I think is imbalancend: with that, the clinging creature has too much advantage: size bonuses and bonuses for weapons, while the clinged creature has nothing. An ant should have an absurdly high cling check, while a human can repel an ant without problems.
So on that aspect I prefer my formulation: no size bonuses at all, just dex and bab. That way a normal cat can stay clinged to a normal person for a few rounds (normal person has +0, normal cat has +2), before the person get a lucky roll and repel the invader (which is what happens in reality: a person attacked by a cat can get free of him sooner or later, while with your set of rules the cat should have a +8 size bonus, +2 dex and +5 for claws (or even +10, since he have 4 of them), making it a +15, almost impossible to beat). Also, a person won't have many troubles repelling an ant. The ant is much harder to grip, but is also much slower due to his size, so the two things compensate.
That way, a cat animal companion can cling a wizard, but is unlikely to defeat a fighter.

Also, I'd add "if the biggest creature succeeds the repel check, he can automatically initiate a grapple with the smallest creature".

[tigerhawkvok]

the clinging creature has too much advantage: size bonuses and bonuses for weapons, while the clinged creature has nothing. An ant should have an absurdly high cling check, while a human can repel an ant without problems.

Well, I'd argue this is a *good* thing. The ant *should* have an absurdly high climb check -- it should never, ever fail to succeed on "I'm climbing against you!" Perhaps it should be easier to remove the ant (though have you actually tried? Its obnoxious), perhaps by taking a full round action to add your BAB to the repel check (ie, if you take the time to pick up and fling an ant off, you can do it, but otherwise its going to just keep going). I suppose that's slightly more realistic, but really, when you try to remove an ant off you it just clings to your bloody fingers ...

Repelling is more like "keep it from getting onto you", rather than "get it off" (though the two are intertwined to some extent, its a passive "get it off" unless you make the effort). You're right about the removal, though, so I added that BAB bit to the rules block.



Also, I'd add "if the biggest creature succeeds the repel check, he can automatically initiate a grapple with the smallest creature".

I kind of like that. That's "I didn't just swipe you off, I picked you up in my hand. What are you going to do about it?"

[Linkavitch]

I think you think a lot.

[dokein]

And if you ever saw a cat attack a human then you know that being big really dont help against a cat in real life.

House cat < Human < Tiger

Actually I think being big does help against a cat in real life.