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arguskos
2008-12-26, 09:58 AM
So, my DM has opened the possibility of me beginning play as a Saint (for +1 LA, if I desire it). I've been thinking about it, and am wondering if Saint is worth it, and if so, what's it best for?

I am currently thinking Human Saint Cleric 7, but that seems boring. Would Paladin fit better?

Of course: most any books allowed (sans ToB, ToM, MoI, XPH, and I think something else; newer DM, doesn't know the systems yet); starting level 8

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-26, 10:16 AM
Saint is one of the better templates out there, even given it's +2 LA. I'd personally almost feel bad about taking it for +1 LA, but, if the chance is given, I'd jump on it.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 10:22 AM
Saint is one of the better templates out there, even given it's +2 LA. I'd personally almost feel bad about taking it for +1 LA, but, if the chance is given, I'd jump on it.
What should I do with it? I personally LOVE spellcasters. I'm thinking I'll either go Cleric 7 or Wizard 5/something 2.

I can also see going a more martial route (certainly, the defenses the class grants are DAMN helpful), maybe Paladin 5/Pious Templar 2 (mettle=delicious) or somesuch.

Talya
2008-12-26, 10:26 AM
What should I do with it? I personally LOVE spellcasters. I'm thinking I'll either go Cleric 7 or Wizard 5/something 2.

I can also see going a more martial route (certainly, the defenses the class grants are DAMN helpful), maybe Paladin 5/Pious Templar 2 (mettle=delicious) or somesuch.

What setting are you in?

For basics, I might go cleric/prestige paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin), which, while not nearly as good as a pure cleric, has far more casting ability than a basic paladin.

Tengu_temp
2008-12-26, 10:26 AM
Going cleric is more martial than going paladin - your buffs make you the best core melee fighter, maybe apart from a druid shapeshifted into something cheesy.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 10:29 AM
What setting are you in?

For basics, I might go cleric/prestige paladin.
Homebrew, but Forgotten Realms material is accepted. We don't use the prestige paladin/ranger/bard though, so that's right out. We are using the Pathfinder classes though, so were I to play a paladin, I wouldn't cry at night. :smallwink:

Tengu, while that is true, the rest of my party isn't that far along (read: the party cleric mostly heals us and tosses out a few minor damage spells; the fighter is happy with 1d8+16 damage, and the rogue is pleased if he can get off a vanilla sneak attack once or twice a fight). I COULD become a minor CoDzilla, but it wouldn't be much fun. :smallwink:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-26, 10:31 AM
If you become a spellcaster, consider Favored Soul. The Wisdom and Charisma boosts will both be really helpful, and the class is actually incredibly powerful. If you've got a healer already, toss around some damage spells and buff spells and become a warrior angel or sorts.

Bonus points for a flaming sword. :smallbiggrin:

jcsw
2008-12-26, 10:31 AM
One: Saint is actually quite broken if you have something in mind which takes advantage of its abilities.

Two: What do you mean by interesting? Fluff-interesting or crunch-interesting?

Fluff: I'd say a paladin is probably the most cliche choice for the template. Cleric isn't much better because of the heavy association with religion. Personally I'd go for one of the peripheral choices.

Quote wiki:

John A. Coleman S.J., associate professor of religion and sociology at the Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, wrote in 1987 that saints across various cultures and religions have the following family resemblances 1. exemplary model 2. extraordinary teacher 3. wonder worker or source of benevolent power, 4. intercessor 5. possessor of a special and revelatory relation to the holy.[3]

In DnD, number 4 and 5 are rather irrelevant due the prominence of deities. Consider someone who believes inspiration to be a tool through which great acts can be achieved, and himself to be a conduit so that great things may be done for the good of all. (Bard)
Or someone who believes that all souls can be redeemed and be worked towards good, who sees the good in all, even those shunned by the gods. (Binder)

As for interesting crunch, the main features of this template is the +4 Cha and Cha to AC. Both a boon to a cha-centric class such as paladin, sorc, bard, binder, or marshal. An thing I like to do is to add Charisma to everything using various means. This is one of them.

They also get +2 DC on all spells and (su)s. Any class with spellcasting, invocations or similar benefits from this.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-26, 10:35 AM
Actually, that gives me an idea...

What about a redeemed Warlock? Cha bonus is nice, and, while the other bonuses don't synergize to nicely, they're always nice to have. Also it's not so good it will overpower your group (which apparently isn't optimization heavy), but they're an (eldritch) blast to play. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2008-12-26, 10:36 AM
If you become a spellcaster, consider Favored Soul. The Wisdom and Charisma boosts will both be really helpful, and the class is actually incredibly powerful.
Ah. See, that's what I was talking about! I totally forgot about Favored Soul! Thanks Djinn.


One: Saint is actually quite broken if you have something in mind which takes advantage of its abilities.

Two: What do you mean by interesting? Fluff-interesting or crunch-interesting?

Fluff: I'd say a paladin is probably the most cliche choice for the template. Cleric isn't much better because of the heavy association with religion. Personally I'd go for one of the peripheral choices.



John A. Coleman S.J., associate professor of religion and sociology at the Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, wrote in 1987 that saints across various cultures and religions have the following family resemblances 1. exemplary model 2. extraordinary teacher 3. wonder worker or source of benevolent power, 4. intercessor 5. possessor of a special and revelatory relation to the holy.
In DnD, number 4 and 5 are rather irrelevant due the prominence of deities. Consider someone who believes inspiration to be a tool through which great acts can be achieved, and himself to be a conduit so that great things may be done for the good of all. (Bard)
Or someone who believes that all souls can be redeemed and be worked towards good, who sees the good in all, even those shunned by the gods. (Binder)

As for interesting crunch, the main features of this template is the +4 Cha and Cha to AC. Both a boon to a cha-centric class such as paladin, sorc, bard, binder, or marshal. An thing I like to do is to add Charisma to everything using various means. This is one of them.

They also get +2 DC on all spells and (su)s. Any class with spellcasting, invocations or similar benefits from this.
I was thinking about fluff-wise, and so that Wiki quote is fascinating. Thanks!

I'm thinking I might give Favored Soul a shot. It seems like a solid choice (not overpoweringly powerful, still a caster, gets some neat powers, blends well with Saint). Human Saint Favored Soul 7 sounds about right. Are there any nice, Sainty PrC's I should be aware of?


Actually, that gives me an idea...

What about a redeemed Warlock? Cha bonus is nice, and, while the other bonuses don't synergize to nicely, they're always nice to have. Also it's not so good it will overpower your group (which apparently isn't optimization heavy), but they're an (eldritch) blast to play. :smallbiggrin:
That's... a pretty neat idea. Esp with C. Mage's Theurges for Warlock (I am a HUGE sucker for Theurge classes). Hmm.. that seems like a winner too!

Talya
2008-12-26, 10:37 AM
Homebrew, but Forgotten Realms material is accepted. We don't use the prestige paladin/ranger/bard though, so that's right out. We are using the Pathfinder classes though, so were I to play a paladin, I wouldn't cry at night. :smallwink:

Tengu, while that is true, the rest of my party isn't that far along (read: the party cleric mostly heals us and tosses out a few minor damage spells; the fighter is happy with 1d8+16 damage, and the rogue is pleased if he can get off a vanilla sneak attack once or twice a fight). I COULD become a minor CoDzilla, but it wouldn't be much fun. :smallwink:

Any particular religious flavor you're going for? I'll come up with some ideas...i love divine based characters, even without being a big fan of the cleric class.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 10:42 AM
Any particular religious flavor you're going for? I'll come up with some ideas...i love divine based characters, even without being a big fan of the cleric class.
I've been thinking about a character who was burned for being a spellcaster in a land where such things don't work out well. Rather than hate those who burned him, he turned to the gods in his moment of peril, and asked for their forgiveness. The gods in turn blessed him as a Saint (saving him from the fire), and charged him with enlightening the unenlightened, etc. It's rather cliche, but I haven't done a religious character in a LOOOOONG time.

Basically, this guy is merciful beyond words (trusses up defeated foes, tends their wounds, and tries to convert them to the Light if possible; disarms them and releases them if not). He definitely has an interest in converting people from evil to good, and believes that it can only be achieved if they want it, so he uses logic to convince others, and leads by example a lot.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 10:44 AM
WHOA. Had a neat idea for this, assuming your DM would let it fly. Sainted Hellbred Warlock FTW!:smallcool:

Edit: Oooh, a Saint Incarnate could be very neat, too!

Talya
2008-12-26, 10:53 AM
I've been thinking about a character who was burned for being a spellcaster in a land where such things don't work out well. Rather than hate those who burned him, he turned to the gods in his moment of peril, and asked for their forgiveness. The gods in turn blessed him as a Saint (saving him from the fire), and charged him with enlightening the unenlightened, etc. It's rather cliche, but I haven't done a religious character in a LOOOOONG time.

Basically, this guy is merciful beyond words (trusses up defeated foes, tends their wounds, and tries to convert them to the Light if possible; disarms them and releases them if not). He definitely has an interest in converting people from evil to good, and believes that it can only be achieved if they want it, so he uses logic to convince others, and leads by example a lot.


So many options...what type of God and racial background are you thinking of, flavorwise?

arguskos
2008-12-26, 10:54 AM
WHOA. Had a neat idea for this, assuming your DM would let it fly. Sainted Hellbred Warlock FTW!:smallcool:

Edit: Oooh, a Saint Incarnate could be very neat, too!
Oooooh, Saint Hellbred Warlock... oooooooo

Ok, so, the ideas so far:
-Human Saint Favored Soul 7
-Hellbred Saint Warlock 7 (replace Warlock 7 with Cleric (or Wizard) 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Disciple (or Theurge) 1)
-Elven (to be different) Saint Paladin 7

These all sound... so FUN!!! I may have to replace my Dvati Force Missile Mage with this guy! :smallsmile:


So many options...what type of God and racial background are you thinking of, flavorwise?
I'll PM you, there is some other info you may need. :smallwink:

UserClone
2008-12-26, 11:04 AM
Please, I'm begging you, try to get the Hellbred Warlock ok'd...I want to hear about that sodarnbad!:smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2008-12-26, 11:06 AM
Please, I'm begging you, try to get the Hellbred Warlock ok'd...I want to hear about that sodarnbad!:smallbiggrin:
Hahaha, I might just try him. I'm still up in the air about this guy. However, should I play a Hellbred Saint Anything, you'll know about it!

UserClone
2008-12-26, 11:09 AM
SWEET!:smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also, what he said, minus the Apostle bit.:smallyuk:
V

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-26, 11:13 AM
Gah! Warlock Eldritch Theurge with CLERIC?

Charisma synergy, man. Charisma synergy.

Favored Soul 4/Warlock 3, headed for Eldritch Theurge. A little less potent, but much cooler, in my opinion.

Also, with your ideas on his tactics, check out the Apostle of Peace.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 11:16 AM
Gah! Warlock Eldritch Theurge with CLERIC?

Charisma synergy, man. Charisma synergy.

Favored Soul 4/Warlock 3, headed for Eldritch Theurge. A little less potent, but much cooler, in my opinion.

Also, with your ideas on his tactics, check out the Apostle of Peace.
Hmm. True. Slower progression, but good point.

I do love the Apostle of Peace, but I wouldn't mind the ability to just immolate someone in divine fire if they are really truly evil heathen bastards (devils/demons come to mind). I may go that way ANYWAYS, just for kicks. Still mulling it over. :smallbiggrin:

woodenbandman
2008-12-26, 11:16 AM
Bard, just 'cuz. If you can get level adjustment buyoff, go for Sublime Chord.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 11:18 AM
Bard, just 'cuz. If you can get level adjustment buyoff, go for Sublime Chord.
Where can the LA buyoff rules be found, and can they be done w/o XP?

UserClone
2008-12-26, 11:22 AM
The SRD, and no, the buyoff MUST cost XP, but it is a LOT less XP in the long run than would be keeping the LA.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 11:23 AM
The SRD, and no, the buyoff MUST cost XP, but it is a LOT less XP in the long run than would be keeping the LA.
We don't use XP. This is an issue.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 11:43 AM
If your DM doesn't use XP, he can infer when to allow the buyoff to occur by using the formula for when XP would normally allow it, which is roughly halfway through the level after CL[NOT ECL]=(LAx3). So you had LA+1, you'd lose your LA at about halfway through level 10 (ECL 11 if you include the LA), assuming you picked up the template at 6th (IIRC, the earliest level at which it can be gained.)

Talya
2008-12-26, 11:46 AM
Favored Soul and Warlock make an interesting theurge, fluff-wise. It's quite flavorful. The split-casting ability between wisdom and charisma also isn't so bad, as saint gets abilities based on both wisdom and charisma as well. Of course, when you theurge, you aren't quite as good at either of them (and it's generally "a trap!"), which would be exacerbated by the LA of the saint template (even lowered to +1.)

If monk wasn't so bad mechanically, I'd also suggest Monk/Favored Soul/Sacred fist (CDiv -- sacred fist is far better than pure monk and solves many of the monk's problems, but its still far from optimal) if you wanted a more martial feel to go with your spellcasting.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 11:49 AM
Favored Soul and Warlock make an interesting theurge, fluff-wise. It's quite flavorful. The split-casting ability between wisdom and charisma also isn't so bad, as saint gets abilities based on both wisdom and charisma as well. Of course, when you theurge, you aren't quite as good at either of them (and it's generally "a trap!"), which would be exacerbated by the LA of the saint template (even lowered to +1.)

If monk wasn't so bad mechanically, I'd also suggest Monk/Favored Soul/Sacred fist (CDiv -- sacred fist is far better than pure monk and solves many of the monk's problems, but its still far from optimal) if you wanted a more martial feel to go with your spellcasting.
Yeah, I know that Theurges are massive traps, but considering my group, I think I can get away with it. The only thing I feel somewhat bad about is our lack of arcane casting (rogue, cleric, fighter, and me [this character is not an arcanist by any stretch of the imagination).

Monk/F. Soul/S. Fist would be nice... except that Monk is so bad I would just sob. If I can find a fix for Monk that keeps the feel I like, I might do that, actually. (Can a monk willingly, w/o penalty, deal non-lethal with their fists?)

UserClone
2008-12-26, 11:53 AM
Actually, Warlocks have some surprisingly potent Invocations, considering they can be cast, and in some cases last, all day long.

Also, Monks can deal nonlethal with no issue (read the description of Improved Unarmed Strike).

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-26, 11:57 AM
Actually, Warlocks have some surprisingly potent Invocations, considering they can be cast, and in some cases last, all day long.

Hell yeah! Shatter, Walk Unseen, Fell Flight, and Bestow Curse all day long is good enough for me. :smallbiggrin:

Talya
2008-12-26, 12:00 PM
If I can find a fix for Monk that keeps the feel I like, I might do that, actually. (Can a monk willingly, w/o penalty, deal non-lethal with their fists?)

Well, Sacred Fist does something that most fixes for monk also do -- it's a Full-BAB martial class.

Note that as the monk/sacred fist Wisdom-to-AC bonus is untyped, and the saint template Wisdom-to-AC bonus is insight, they would stack as well, meaning you'd get double your wisdom bonus to armor class.

Since you're already using book of exalted deeds, Insightful Strike (Wisdom to Attack) would be nice here as well. You wouldn't need to take monk very far, or at all, really. The qualification for it requires stunning fist, which any class can take, but monks get at level 1 as a bonus feat, and is likely worth the dip merely to add flurry and +2 to all saves and the extra level of unarmed damage progression. If your homebrewed divine pantheon can grant "improved unarmed strike" for the favored soul divine proficiency, there's nothing preventing you from skipping monk altogether in a favored soul/sacred fist build.

Miraqariftsky
2008-12-26, 12:01 PM
So, my DM has opened the possibility of me beginning play as a Saint (for +1 LA, if I desire it). I've been thinking about it, and am wondering if Saint is worth it, and if so, what's it best for?

I am currently thinking Human Saint Cleric 7, but that seems boring. Would Paladin fit better?

Of course: most any books allowed (sans ToB, ToM, MoI, XPH, and I think something else; newer DM, doesn't know the systems yet); starting level 8

Also, unless I am mistaken, ALL of a Saint's weapons are treated as holy.

--------

And why, hello, Djinn, old friend. How have ye been? Top of the season to ye!

Starscream
2008-12-26, 12:03 PM
I have a question:

What if you are playing a reformed fiend, an Erinyes lets say. According to the Monster Manual even the "Always something something" alignment monsters have occasional exceptions.

Typically your fiendish character, even though she is good, would still count as evil for the purpose of spells and DR and such because she still has the "evil" subtype.

Now imagine she attains sainthood, acquiring the "native outsider" trait. Does she still have the "evil" subtype as well? Would any of her weaknesses be affected? Would any of her powers?

Or is the "native" subtype just added to the list, making her capable of being raised?

imperialspectre
2008-12-26, 12:08 PM
I have a question:

What if you are playing a reformed fiend, an Erinyes lets say. According to the Monster Manual even the "Always something something" alignment monsters have occasional exceptions.

Typically your fiendish character, even though she is good, would still count as evil for the purpose of spells and DR and such because she still has the "evil" subtype.

Now imagine she attains sainthood, acquiring the "native outsider" trait. Does she still have the "evil" subtype as well? Would any of her weaknesses be affected? Would any of her powers?

Or is the "native" subtype just added to the list, making her capable of being raised?

Your Erinyes would have both the [Evil] and [Good] alignment subtypes, as well as the [Native] subtype. She would be affected by both Holy Word and Blasphemy. However, an item that affects a "good-aligned" creature would affect her in the same way that it would affect your typical LG Paladin, IIRC.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 12:12 PM
Well, Sacred Fist does something that most fixes for monk also do -- it's a Full-BAB martial class.

Note that as the monk/sacred fist Wisdom-to-AC bonus is untyped, and the saint template Wisdom-to-AC bonus is insight, they would stack as well, meaning you'd get double your wisdom bonus to armor class.

Since you're already using book of exalted deeds, Insightful Strike (Wisdom to Attack) would be nice here as well. You wouldn't need to take monk very far, or at all, really. The qualification for it requires stunning fist, which any class can take, but monks get at level 1 as a bonus feat, and is likely worth the dip merely to add flurry and +2 to all saves and the extra level of unarmed damage progression. If your homebrewed divine pantheon can grant "improved unarmed strike" for the favored soul divine proficiency, there's nothing preventing you from skipping monk altogether in a favored soul/sacred fist build.
Hmm. So I see. So, Monk 2/Favored Soul 4/Sacred Fist 1 would get me in (and I'd only have to burn one feat on the crap that is Combat Casting). I'd have Favored Soul 5 casting, Evasion (nice), etc. I might as well grab Insightful Strike and Touch of Golden Ice (decent Exalted feat).

I foresee not dealing much damage (non-lethal or otherwise) to anything though. Is there another way to up my damage, so I can actually take out evil stuff rapidly (so they don't harm others)?

Also, Talya, thanks much!

Talya
2008-12-26, 12:19 PM
I foresee not dealing much damage (non-lethal or otherwise) to anything though. Is there another way to up my damage, so I can actually take out evil stuff rapidly (so they don't harm others)?

Also, Talya, thanks much!

You could arrange a fair bit of that through your divine spell choices. Note that you would eventually have access to all the clerical buffs that can make a cleric so kickass in melee.

Also to consider (if you're allowed flaws this is easier)
Improved Natural Attack works on unarmed strike.
Monk's belt or superior unarmed strike (TOB feat, but it is unrelated to TOB's new mechanics, he may allow it.)
Circle Kick (Tome and Fist 3.0) and/or Snap Kick (TOB again).
Two levels of Kensei for Metalline quality on your unarmed strike.

As much maligned as it is, Vow of Poverty fits your fluff, adds a bunch of useful bonus exalted feats (including the aforementioned insightful strike and touch of golden ice), and in a game where nobody is optimizing can really help that unarmed damage as well. Just make sure your DM isn't pulling the "Hey, it doesn't say you can use a holy symbol!" crap some people have tried here.

It's not flawless, but it's playable and effective, lack of ability to fly notwithstanding.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 12:38 PM
So, let's see here... I am thinking about a Hellbred Monk 2/Favored Soul 4/Sacred Fist 1

Feats (using Pathfinder, so one every 2 levels):
1: Sacred Vow
Flaw 1: Vow of Poverty
3: Combat Casting
5: Superior Unarmed Strike
7: Improved Natural Attack
Monk Bonus Feats: Stunning Fist; Combat Reflexes; Improved Unarmed Strike
Vow of Poverty Bonus Feats: Touch of Golden Ice, Intuitive Attack (wis to atk), (something?)
Flaw: Shaky

So... does that look decent? I think it's pretty good.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-26, 12:40 PM
If you're up for a challenge: Make your last bonus feat Vow of Peace. Great feat, if you can pull it off.

Talya
2008-12-26, 12:41 PM
So, let's see here... I am thinking about a Hellbred Monk 2/Favored Soul 4/Sacred Fist 1

Feats (using Pathfinder, so one every 2 levels):
1: Sacred Vow
Flaw 1: Vow of Poverty
3: Combat Casting
5: Superior Unarmed Strike
7: Improved Natural Attack
Monk Bonus Feats: Stunning Fist; Combat Reflexes; Improved Unarmed Strike
Vow of Poverty Bonus Feats: Touch of Golden Ice, Intuitive Attack (wis to atk), (something?)
Flaw: Shaky

So... does that look decent? I think it's pretty good.

It sounds fun to play. Note you will have 2 more VOP bonus exalted feats (you get one at level 1 that isn't on the chart). You'll want the ones that boost the DC of stunning fist and the ones that add exalted damage to your attacks. Either that or Nymph's Kiss (for the extra 10 skill points it will net you at level 7 if taken at level 1).

arguskos
2008-12-26, 12:44 PM
It sounds fun to play. Note you will have 2 more VOP bonus exalted feats. You'll want the ones that boost the DC of stunning fist and the ones that add exalted damage to your attacks.
Not at level 7 I won't. I think I only get those three. I'm playing a Hellbred, so I get a bonus Exalted feat at level 2, 4, and 6 (the three I have accounted for). Did I miss some?

Talya
2008-12-26, 12:45 PM
If you're up for a challenge: Make your last bonus feat Vow of Peace. Great feat, if you can pull it off.

Stupidly, Touch of Golden Ice is incompatible with either peace of nonviolence (I forget which is which.)

Talya
2008-12-26, 12:47 PM
Not at level 7 I won't. I think I only get those three. I'm playing a Hellbred, so I get a bonus Exalted feat at level 2, 4, and 6 (the three I have accounted for). Did I miss some?

The VOP template gets bonus exalted feats at 1,2,4,6,8....

Like I said, it's not on the chart. But it is in the writeup of the template.


Bonus Exalted Feats: At 1st level, an ascetic gets a bonus
exalted feat, and another bonus feat at 2nd level and every 2
levels thereafter.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-26, 12:48 PM
Stupidly, Touch of Golden Ice is incompatible with either peace of nonviolence (I forget which is which.)

Well that's dumb. :smallbiggrin:

Vexxation
2008-12-26, 12:49 PM
Not at level 7 I won't. I think I only get those three. I'm playing a Hellbred, so I get a bonus Exalted feat at level 2, 4, and 6 (the three I have accounted for). Did I miss some?

You'll get one more at level one (When you take Vow of Poverty) I believe.
Don't know where the other one comes in.

But yeah, Nymph's Kiss is always a decent choice, since you have Feats out the Wazoo...

arguskos
2008-12-26, 12:51 PM
You'll get one more at level one (When you take Vow of Poverty) I believe.
Don't know where the other one comes in.

But yeah, Nymph's Kiss is always a decent choice, since you have Feats out the Wazoo...
Actually, that extra one is for Humans only (it made mention of that, though I'm not sure why...). It mentions that in the description, a bit down.

Also, I'm level 7, not 8, so I *should* only have those three exalted feats. Stupid table being stupidly written. :smallannoyed:

Also, yeah, I'm not taking that challenge Djinn. Maybe some other time.

Talya
2008-12-26, 12:52 PM
On VoP -- don't forget to take your share of the party treasure. Just being an aescetic doesn't mean "more for everybody else!" Donating what you acquire is a big part of the class feature. If you're making heavy use of the BoED...it also gives you major benefits, too. Donating to your church, for example, will generally get you temple services for free. (I pointed out in another thread how if you donated enough to a temple, they'd hire a wizard to come cast wish on you several times for an inherent bonus if you wanted.)

arguskos
2008-12-26, 12:55 PM
On VoP -- don't forget to take your share of the party treasure. Just being an aescetic doesn't mean "more for everybody else!" Donating what you acquire is a big part of the class feature. If you're making heavy use of the BoED...it also gives you major benefits, too. Donating to your church, for example, will generally get you temple services for free. (I pointed out in another thread how if you donated enough to a temple, they'd hire a wizard to come cast wish on you several times for an inherent bonus if you wanted.)
1. WOOHOO!!!! Gotta remember that one!

2. Here's the updated Feat tree, changed around a little to abuse the Devil-Touched Feats I get as a Hellbred :smallwink:
1: Sacred Vow
Flaw 1: Vow of Poverty
3: Combat Casting
5: Superior Unarmed Strike
7: Devil's Stamina
Monk Bonus Feats: Stunning Fist; Combat Reflexes; Improved Unarmed Strike
Vow of Poverty Bonus Feats: Touch of Golden Ice, Intuitive Attack (wis to atk), (something?)
Flaw: Shaky
Hellbred: Devil's Favor, Devil's Flesh

Now, I am a devil-skinned, devil killing badass from heaven who is here to kick ass with his bare hands in the name of the Lord. Man, this guy is gonna be AWESOME.

Talya
2008-12-26, 12:55 PM
Actually, that extra one is for Humans only (it made mention of that, though I'm not sure why...). It mentions that in the description, a bit down.


Ah, I see what you mean. You're misinterpreting that statement though. I'll show you.


Unlike the other benefits of a vow of poverty, a character does not gain these bonus feats retroactively when he takes the Vow of Poverty feat; he only gains those bonus feats that apply for the levels he gains after swearing his vow. Thus, the bonus feat gained at 1st level is available only to humans who take both Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at 1st level.

This is saying if you don't get VoP until second level, you don't get that bonus exalted feat from first level. In core, only humans can get the Vow of Poverty at 1st level because only they get the two feats needed to start there. As you're being allowed a flaw, you too get into VoP at first level and therefore get that first level exalted feat.

RTGoodman
2008-12-26, 12:56 PM
Hey, if you need another feat and are wanting to rain down holy fire, what about the metamagic Consecrate Spell (+1 spell level, spells gain the Good descriptor, half the damage is untype holy damage that can't be resisted)? Ooh, or maybe Purify Spell (+1 spell level; no damage to Good creature, half to neutral, full to Evil, and full PLUS increased die size for damage to Evil Outsiders)? That could be cool for your flame strikes or whatever.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 12:58 PM
Ah, I see what you mean. You're misinterpreting that statement though. I'll show you.



This is saying if you don't get VoP until second level, you don't get that bonus exalted feat from first level. In core, only humans can get the Vow of Poverty at 1st level because only they get the two feats needed to start there. As you're being allowed a flaw, you too get into VoP at first level and therefore get that first level exalted feat.
Now that doesn't seem fair! Anyways, I see your point. I'll have to nick something else! (Jeez, I have SOO MANY FEATS OMGBLARG)

Talya
2008-12-26, 01:08 PM
Now that doesn't seem fair! Anyways, I see your point. I'll have to nick something else! (Jeez, I have SOO MANY FEATS OMGBLARG)

Yes. Far more than will fit on any online character sheet by level 20, actually.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 01:13 PM
Yes. Far more than will fit on any online character sheet by level 20, actually.
Yeaaaaaaah, I'm down to 4 slots on my Myth-Weavers sheet. >_<

Anyways, this guy is shaping up to be a combat monster, and yet, quite quiet, reserved, and peaceable. Me likey!!

I'll post the sheet when I finish with it, for approval and double checking.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 01:29 PM
It would work well for a F.S. of...what was his name, Ilmater, I think? The Faerunian god of long-suffering.

Edit: This is RE: IUS being a valid use of the Favored Soul bonus feats.

Talya
2008-12-26, 01:31 PM
It would work well for a F.S. of...what was his name, Ilmater, I think? The Faerunian god of long-suffering.


That's sorta the flavor he's going for, from what he's told me. It's a custom pantheon, but his god has a bit of Ilmater in him.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 01:35 PM
This character has potential to be ABSURDLY cool. [/geekgasm]:smallsmile:

arguskos
2008-12-26, 01:45 PM
That's sorta the flavor he's going for, from what he's told me. It's a custom pantheon, but his god has a bit of Ilmater in him.
Yeah. Slortar isn't quite the god of suffering, but he is the god of being badass- I mean, the god of healing and kindness. :smallwink:

UserClone
2008-12-26, 01:47 PM
And of punching bad guys in the face. You forgot that part, too.:smalltongue:

arguskos
2008-12-26, 01:48 PM
Yeah, that too. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2008-12-26, 02:14 PM
Also, double post, but here he is: St. Alexander (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=99138)

Talya
2008-12-26, 02:20 PM
Also, double post, but here he is: St. Alexander (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=99138)

Swap Nymph's Kiss in as your level 1 VOP feat instead of 4. It gives you +1 skill point per level, but it's not retroactive. That'd be an additional 6 skill points (4 at level 1, an additional at 2 and 3.)

arguskos
2008-12-26, 02:21 PM
Ah. Good point. I'll do thatDone. Anything else (I skipped over the skills, since I don't feel like them right now)?

Talya
2008-12-26, 02:30 PM
I don't like the Mythweavers character profiler much for 3.5...it's missing a few goodies. You might try www.thetangledweb.net for their 3.5 sheet.

Your touch AC would be through the roof. I am counting a touch AC of at least 27 (10 + 7 monk-wis + 7 saint-wis + 1 sacred fist + dex). Good luck to any level 8 wizard or cleric hitting that...

I'd list your VOP armor bonus as "Armor," separate from that huge mess of "miscellaneous" you have.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 02:33 PM
I looked at the Tangled Web. Didn't like their sheets. I just like Myth-Weavers (silly I know, cause it's only a "meh" sheet).

As for the bonus stacking, yeah, I'll move that around. :smallbiggrin:

Touch AC is 28, since I think Natural still counts.

Talya
2008-12-26, 02:37 PM
Natural doesn't count against touch, but deflect does. So yes, 28.

I think your attack bonus unarmed is a point low.

You've got:
+5 (bab) + 7 (wis) + 1 (exalted strike) + 1 (weapon focus).

+14 at level 8 is pretty good. Your flurry won't hurt your hit chance much. (+12/+12 is not bad at all.)

UserClone
2008-12-26, 02:43 PM
Actually, I don't believe N.K. gives you 4 @ level 1, just 1 point at each level, IIRC. I'd read up on that, and adjust if needed, Arguskos.

Talya
2008-12-26, 02:46 PM
Actually, I don't believe N.K. gives you 4 @ level 1, just 1 point at each level, IIRC. I'd read up on that, and adjust if needed, Arguskos.

They'd need to specify that it does not. It says:


Starting with the level when you take this feat, you
gain 1 extra skill point per level.

As your skill points per level are multiplied by 4 at level 1, this would, without wording to the contrary, give you 4 extra skill points if taken at level 1.

arguskos
2008-12-26, 02:46 PM
DURR!!! Totally forgot the Weapon Focus. :smallsigh:

Sleepy argus is inattentive.

I'll also add in the flurry. :smallsmile:

I'll figure out the skill points when I'm up to it, but thanks for the heads-up about Nymph's Kiss, I'll count that out correctly.This seems like a "DM, what do you make of all this?" moment.

Talya
2008-12-26, 02:51 PM
DURR!!! Totally forgot the Weapon Focus. :smallsigh:

Sleepy argus is inattentive.

I'll also add in the flurry. :smallsmile:

I'll figure out the skill points when I'm up to it, but thanks for the heads-up about Nymph's Kiss, I'll count that out correctly.This seems like a "DM, what do you make of all this?" moment.

It's a difference of 3 skill points. Hardly character-breaking either way. But yeah, ask your DM.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 02:54 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree, Talya. The way I see it 1 skill point != 4 skill points, no matter the level. The Human special ability DOES specify that you multiply by 4 at first level, which leads me to infer that the Nymph's Kiss does NOT get multiplied, as there is no such specification. However, like you said, three skill points hardly matter in the end, no matter which of us turns out to be correct.:smallwink:

arguskos
2008-12-26, 02:56 PM
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

*ahem*

Anyways, since my DM is not online atm, I'll have to wait to ask. Personally, skills are my least favorite part of drawing up a character, so meh. *shrug*

UserClone
2008-12-26, 03:00 PM
Hey that means I win, since that's three less points you have to worry about doling out!:smalltongue:

Starscream
2008-12-26, 03:30 PM
I really love Touch of Golden Ice, but have never used it because the only time I played an exalted character it was a rather high level campaign, and the save DC of 14 seemed way too low for the sort of monsters we were facing.

Anyone know of a way to get that up higher? Maybe Ability Focus, seeing as affecting anyone you touch is presumably a supernatural ability?

UserClone
2008-12-26, 03:33 PM
It should specify in the feat, actually, but I believe that all such effects relating to [Exalted] feats are (Su) unless otherwise specified.

Talya
2008-12-26, 03:44 PM
I really love Touch of Golden Ice, but have never used it because the only time I played an exalted character it was a rather high level campaign, and the save DC of 14 seemed way too low for the sort of monsters we were facing.


If you played a monk far enough to max out flurry, and took the TWF chain, as well as snap kick and maybe circle kick, you could make an absurd number of attacks in a round without resorting to a certain four armed psionic race (+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5, all minus several penalties for twf and snap kick and such). Even if you only fail on a natural 1 (+13 or higher fortitude save), you've got about a 40% chance of failing on any given round when someone smacks you with 10 touch attacks.

That's just silliness, but it could still work reliably. The downside is, you just took a stupid number of levels in monk.

UserClone
2008-12-26, 03:50 PM
Which, don't forget, become easier to hit with as the target's Dex score goes down.:smallamused:

JaxGaret
2008-12-26, 05:39 PM
If you become a spellcaster, consider Favored Soul. The Wisdom and Charisma boosts will both be really helpful, and the class is actually incredibly powerful. If you've got a healer already, toss around some damage spells and buff spells and become a warrior angel or sorts.

I've got a VoP Favored Soul/Celestial Mystic with the Saint template in one of my campaigns. He's a dedicated healer type, pretty cool character.