Archmage high arcana dilemma

[Zaragosa]

Hello, all! I'm fairly new at this site. I don't play D&D very often, so I'm fairly inexperienced, but I have been in two games before.
Anyway, I'm playing a wizard for the first time in a high level campaign (starting at level 18). We'll be going to the Abyss and will probably be fighting a lot of demons :D
So, here's my build (too late to change): Wizard 5, Archmage 3, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3, Mage of the Arcane Order 7.

Anyway, I'm having trouble deciding between Mastery of Elements and the Spell like Ability (Timestop SLA!!!!!!). I've read a few threads that have declared Mastery of Elements to be a waste, but I'm wondering how much of a waste it would be in the Abyss where a lot of monsters have various resistances.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!:smallcool:

[JackMage666]

I'm of the school that thinks Mastery of Elements can be immensely awesome, particularly if you're more playing for fun and not optimization. Always helpful to change energy types on the fly, especially if resistance/immunity is common.

[ericgrau]

In core or even core with a couple books, mastery of the elements is immensely useful. If you have extra spells from other books to fill in the missing damage types, it's less useful but still handy to select your damage type on the fly. It's invaluable for evokers, whom a lot of people on the interwebz don't like, which might be why others claimed it to be useless.

SLA, OTOH is useless compared to just playing a sorceror at your level, whereas the same people I mentioned might think it's immensely useful b/c they wouldn't dare play a sorceror, yet they always re-use the same spells anyway and could really use the extra spell slot from either playing a sorc or getting SLA (the lesser choice but the only one that won't get them ridiculed). I'm certainly not saying the sorc is always better, but for this it is.

Since your build is already set in stone, it could go either way. If you want to blast everything then get mastery of the elements. And also pick up any damage boosting metamagic you can get your hands on. Spell slots may be limited, so quicken spell might not be your best damage choice, especially if you can get other metamagic from splatbooks. If you don't want a blaster and want to keep using trickier spells like time stop, then ya grab the SLA. Or maybe you want a mix of both. Then build according to the side you'll use more often.

[Fax Celestis]

...how are you getting into Archmage at 6th level?

[Greg]

I take it you've already taken Mastery of Shaping and Arcane Reach?

@Fax, I would assume he's not listing them in order.

[UserClone]

Fax, I'm sure that that is not the order in which those classes were taken:smalltongue:, at least...I hope not!:smalleek:


GAH! Edit-ninja'd!

[dextercorvia]

Wizard 5, Archmage 3, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3, Mage of the Arcane Order 7.


Any reason not to replace most of that MotAO with more IotSV?

Something like Wiz5/MotAO4/IotSV6-7/Archmage3-2

I forget exactly what Mage of the Arcane order gets after the bonus feat at the second level, but I seem to recall it's an extra spell and more spellpool. That seems like a poor trade for the extra Veils and being able to throw them down as an Immediate action.

[Eldariel]

Spell-Like is better; more spell slots is always great for a Wizard, and the fact that those spell slots happen to be level 9 doesn't hurt at all. Spells I'd consider: Shapechange, Time Stop, Maw of Chaos. You're happy casting any of those any number of times per day. Mastery of Elements is generally a waste since you shouldn't need to attack resistant opponents with elemental damage in the first place; there's simply no reason to structure your spell selection thusly. Some very specific builds like those maximizing Scorching Ray (the spell with the highest potential damage; no save is a bonus) that want Mastery of Elements or a similar effect, but those builds are generally one-trick ponies which is everything a real Wizard is not; the primary reason Wizards are superior to Sorcerers is the fact that you can effectively prepare a different spell in each slot on each level and switch those slots according to dayafter what your divinations told you. Better plan than to make your Scorching Ray deal different type of damage is to simply cast a spell that is unaffected by that particular resistance.

[Jack_Simth]

Any reason not to replace most of that MotAO with more IotSV?
Mage of the Arcane Order-7 just happens to be the point of Spellpool III - 9th level spell access. Leave one high, and two mid-level spell slots unprepared, and he's very, very flexible.

[Glimbur]

doesn't hurt at all. Spells I'd consider: Shapechange, Time Stop, Maw of Chaos.

If the adventure takes place in the Abyss, as stated in the OP, isn't Maw of Chaos pretty useless, since it doesn't work on critters with the chaotic subtype?

[Eldariel]

There's a surprising number of areas dominated by things other than chaotic outsiders in the Abyss (most notably, there's plenty of undead there, for whatever reason; also, humanoids and monstrous humanoids are there in numbers). That said, it would definitely make the Maw of Chaos Spell-Like not worthwhile.

[shadowdemon_lord]

It depends on how you wish to build your character. If you want to play a blaster caster more power to you. Many on this board will berate you for not playing Batman (a wizard that answers the fireball or lightning bolt question with haste and stinking cloud), and many will assume you have access to all the spells in every splat book ever and tell you to take all force and sonic based spells by using this combo of fifteen books. Okay so I exaggerated that last one a bit. That said, assuming you don't want to be casting purely buffs and battle field control, and that you don't feel like finding spells that use all force and sonic damage I would take mastery of elements. Time stop as an SLA is pretty cool, but being unable to blast with your blaster because all the bad guys are immune to your elements just sucks. Make sure you have high knowledge checks for planes, religion, dungeoneering (however you spell that)., and arcana at the very least.

[Greg]

It depends on how you wish to build your character. If you want to play a blaster caster more power to you. Many on this board will berate you for not playing Batman (a wizard that answers the fireball or lightning bolt question with haste and stinking cloud), and many will assume you have access to all the spells in every splat book ever and tell you to take all force and sonic based spells by using this combo of fifteen books. Okay so I exaggerated that last one a bit. That said, assuming you don't want to be casting purely buffs and battle field control, and that you don't feel like finding spells that use all force and sonic damage I would take mastery of elements. Time stop as an SLA is pretty cool, but being unable to blast with your blaster because all the bad guys are immune to your elements just sucks. Make sure you have high knowledge checks for planes, religion, dungeoneering (however you spell that)., and arcana at the very least.
Which is why Divination is so useful.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, you've got 3 High Arcanas available, so here's my suggestions:

1) Arcane Reach. If you haven't gotten this, then get it. Seriously, you're effectively able to spontaneously apply a +2 SL Metamagic Feat (Reach Spell) for FREE. This lets you do things like Chain Reach <buff whole party with a spell that is only Touch range>. It also lets you give someone the Finger (of Death) and Touch of Idiocy at range.

2) SLA is good... IF the spell you're getting as an SLA is > 5th level. If you get, to use your example, 2 Time Stops as SLA, that's good. You're spending a 5th and a 9th level slot to get 2 9th level slots. Good job. But don't bother using it to get a whole boatload number of lower level stuff, unless you're wanting to do something like Dimension Door x 4.

3) Mastery of Elements is good... if you like blasting. If you like walking up to a pile of enemies and raining down elemental death and destruction on them, then absolutely get Mastery of Elements. That way, you are never out of the 'correct' flavor. Running up against trolls, but you already used your last Delayed Blast Fireball? Change the flavor on a Chain Lightning to Fire and go to town! It's like every single Energy Substitution feats for free!
If you actually want to be useful, however, avoid Mastery of Elements, because blasting is about the worst option you have
Keep in mind, these are only my opinions, YMMV.

[Zaragosa]

Thanks for all the replies, people.

First of all, I forgot to mention that the party (so far!) consists me (the wizard), a rogue/ranger/planar champion/occult slayer, and an NPC (described as some sort of demon slayer) who seems to be more of a fighter/rogue-ish type. And yes, I'm definitely taking Shaping and Arcane Reach - they're just too good!

So, I'll probably be filling a number of roles as the wizard. Because of that, perhaps spell-like ability might be more useful. I mean, I have so many slots open (as well as the spellpool) and after a while I might know what spells to prepare. I just haven't seen how my companions fare in battle thus far.

And yeah, I didn't list my classes in the order they were taken. :P

[TheOOB]

Spell-like abilities don't have components if I am not mistaken, taking SLA for say, greater teleport can let you escape silently and without moving, even if you are bound. Just choose not to take the bindings with you.

[monty]

Spell-like abilities don't have components if I am not mistaken, taking SLA for say, greater teleport can let you escape silently and without moving, even if you are bound. Just choose not to take the bindings with you.

It's important to remember they can still have an XP component, though. No free wishes for you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's important to remember they can still have an XP component, though. No free wishes for you.

And anything with a costly material requirement costs 10 TIMES it's cost in xp per use.