What O-Chul may or may not know (spoilers for the Giant)

[Kaytara]

Something that occurred to me. In the courtroom during the battle at Azure City, O-Chul was standing paralyzed not too far away while Xykon was facing Soon's spirit.
We know from a bonus Dungeon Crawlin' Fools comic (where V is paralyzed) that in OotS-land paralyzed characters are still fully aware of their surroundings.
What, then, are the chances of O-Chul having heard Soon's line about Xykon's phylactery and more specifically, exactly what it is?
Up till now O-Chul has been an awesome but not very important character (unless you count the way he's influenced the MitD). This, however, would actually give him a purpose, as it would make him the only good guy alive to know how to destroy Xykon.

Thoughts?

EDIT a long time later: Validated by history! :P

[Assassin89]

O-chul will become a messenger, only for Xykon to create a plot that might result the discovery of another gate.

[Draz74]

What, then, are the chances of O-Chul having heard Soon's line about Xykon's phylactery and more specifically, exactly what it is?
Some multiple of 5%, between 0% and 100%. We can't know for certain without knowing O-Chul's Listen check modifier, which would require knowing his Wisdom modifier. :smallwink:


Thoughts?

It's a good theory. I hadn't thought of it, but it completely makes sense and would be a good role for O-Chul to play later.

[David Argall]

Roy, Haley, and likely most of the rest of the order, know of the phylactery and likely know what it is too [or can find out if they need to]. So O-Chul is not needed here.

More important, the phylactery has already been used, and won't be needed again. The next time the party kills Xykon, the story will be over, at least as far as Xykon is concerned.

[RMS Oceanic]

Phylacteries don't work that way. They can be used again and again and again.

[dps]

Phylacteries don't work that way. They can be used again and again and again.

I think that he meant that it won't be re-used for dramatic purposes, not because it's a one-shot item.

[Kish]

Distinguishing between opinion and fact is still a good skill to have.

(Of course, I say that as someone who considers "Belkar will die and not come back" a fact, while "Xykon's phylactery will never come up in the story again" is an opinion. So season what I say with salt to taste.)

[Kaytara]

Roy, Haley, and likely most of the rest of the order, know of the phylactery and likely know what it is too [or can find out if they need to].

How? Sure, they know OF the phylactery. But both Xykon and Redcloak have been very careful to keep its location close to the chest, hence Xykon's shock at the fact that Soon knew of it. What makes you think the Order knows that Redcloak's holy symbol is Xykon's phylactery?

Also, they need the phylactery to permanently defeat him. So the phylactery and its status are hardly irrelevant for the final battle.

On a side note, exactly how long does it take a Lich to regrow his body, anyway?

[Zordrath]

A lich reappears in 1d10 days.

Roy and crew apparently know very little about liches. At the time they first fought him, they weren't even aware Xykon could regrow (not even V, for some reason, or at least (s)he didn't see fit to mention it). So it's reasonable to assume they don't know the exact identity of his phylactery, as they only learned in Azure City that such a thing even existed.

@OP: Interesting theory. The whole O-Chul story makes a lot more sense now, story-wise... I'm curious as to how it will turn out. Maybe O-Chul will even try to break it himself? I'm quite sure he will break free sooner or later, else his whole story would be pointless.

[David Argall]

How? Sure, they know OF the phylactery. But both Xykon and Redcloak have been very careful to keep its location close to the chest, hence Xykon's shock at the fact that Soon knew of it. What makes you think the Order knows that Redcloak's holy symbol is Xykon's phylactery?
How did Soon know it? [My bet is that it detects as magic and evil, making it easy enough to find, if one has disposed of the lich.] And however he knew it, the party has access to that same source of information. Soon may be of epic level, but he is still just a fighter type. The party has better casters for both divine and arcane magic. If we assume he was told from above, Durkon is fully able to do the same.


Also, they need the phylactery to permanently defeat him. So the phylactery and its status are hardly irrelevant for the final battle.
It doesn't matter if Xykon survives his defeat at all. He is defeated. The party has shown it can keep him away from the gate.



it's reasonable to assume they don't know the exact identity of his phylactery, as they only learned in Azure City that such a thing even existed.
Right, but once you know what you need to know, it's a much easier task to find that.



@OP: Interesting theory. The whole O-Chul story makes a lot more sense now, story-wise... I'm curious as to how it will turn out. Maybe O-Chul will even try to break it himself? I'm quite sure he will break free sooner or later, else his whole story would be pointless.
The basic point of the O-Chul story is to give an excuse for Team Evil to kick back and stay in Azure City while the party is fooling around trying to raise Roy. He doesn't need any more.
And this particular need has a serious problem. When we hear the hero's plan, we can routinely assume something is going to go wrong with that plan. So when O-Chul tells the party about the holy symbol, we can assume the party won't be able to walk over and crack it.

[Zordrath]

How did Soon know it? [My bet is that it detects as magic and evil, making it easy enough to find, if one has disposed of the lich.] And however he knew it, the party has access to that same source of information. Soon may be of epic level, but he is still just a fighter type. The party has better casters for both divine and arcane magic. If we assume he was told from above, Durkon is fully able to do the same.
Soon is not just a fighter type, he's a homebrewed paladin spirit of pure good with decades of experience in dealing with the most horrible manifestations of Evil. Maybe he's a little more proficient at detecting or recognizing evil artifacts than our clueless heroes? :smalltongue:

(it is also possible that it was just an educated guess - Soon had nothing to lose in case he was wrong, after all, he would have smashed Xykon either way)


It doesn't matter if Xykon survives his defeat at all. He is defeated. The party has shown it can keep him away from the gate.
If he's not destroyed, he can make a new attempt roughly every five days. Statistic dictates that he will succeed sooner or later. Plus, what kind of lame ending would 'we temporarily thwarted the villain!' be?


Right, but once you know what you need to know, it's a much easier task to find that.
'Easier than actually having to deduce it's very existance first' doesn't mean 'easy'. The phylactery could be virtually any kind of object, located at any place Xykon has ever visisted during his century-long lifespan. Personally, I certainly wouldn't expect the thing his head lackey carries around every day with a big bullseye on it the most obvious choice for a villain to hide his soul. Even with Xykon, I would at least expect it to be an object he carries around every day with a big bullseye on it (like his black gem).


The basic point of the O-Chul story is to give an excuse for Team Evil to kick back and stay in Azure City while the party is fooling around trying to raise Roy. He doesn't need any more.
I don't the believe the Giant is a bad enough a storyteller to keep a character alive (and even developing him!) just so he has an excuse of showing other characters torturing him. Redcloak could easily have come up with another excuse, and I'm quite sure O-Chul will have a part to play sooner or later.

[T-O-E]

Some multiple of 5%, between 0% and 100%. We can't know for certain without knowing O-Chul's Listen check modifier, which would require knowing his Wisdom modifier. :smallwink:

Not good for O-Chul the fighter/pally. I mean, unless he didn't use wisdom as a dump stat.

But really. Who does that?

[Assassin89]

Not good for O-Chul the fighter/pally. I mean, unless he didn't use wisdom as a dump stat.

But really. Who does that?

Belkar does

[Optimystik]

Belkar does

I believe that was a sarcastic question (most min-maxers not playing a wisdom-based casting class use wisdom as their dump stat)

[Zevox]

I believe that was a sarcastic question (most min-maxers not playing a wisdom-based casting class use wisdom as their dump stat)
I think you're confusing wisdom for charisma. Charisma the atypical "dump stat," since if you're not a Bard, Sorcerer, Paladin, or Cleric who wants to be good at turning undead, you have no use for it as combat goes. Wisdom though is good for will saves and spot/listen checks if nothing else, so it tends to get at least some attention even from the most hardcore min-maxers.

Zevox

[Kaytara]

How did Soon know it? [My bet is that it detects as magic and evil, making it easy enough to find, if one has disposed of the lich.] And however he knew it, the party has access to that same source of information. Soon may be of epic level, but he is still just a fighter type. The party has better casters for both divine and arcane magic. If we assume he was told from above, Durkon is fully able to do the same.

We're talking about Redcloak's holy symbol. If that thing happens to detect as magic and evil, the most obvious explanation would because it's the HOLY SYMBOL of an EVIL goblin deity. It really makes no sense to assume that the holy symbol is a phylactery instead, especially since it's being carried by someone who's constantly in the line of fire and could, oh I don't know, get crushed under a falling wall or something.

[Zevox]

We're talking about Redcloak's holy symbol. If that thing happens to detect as magic and evil, the most obvious explanation would because it's the HOLY SYMBOL of an EVIL goblin deity. It really makes no sense to assume that the holy symbol is a phylactery instead, especially since it's being carried by someone who's constantly in the line of fire and could, oh I don't know, get crushed under a falling wall or something.
Holy Symbols normally would not register as either magical or evil, actually. They're just mundane foci for divine casters, usually made of mundane wood or silver. They're much like spell components for arcane casters. No magic involved. For them to register on a Detect Magic or Detect Evil scan would mean there was something unusual about them.

Zevox

[Kaytara]

Holy Symbols normally would not register as either magical or evil, actually. They're just mundane foci for divine casters, usually made of mundane wood or silver. They're much like spell components for arcane casters. No magic involved. For them to register on a Detect Magic or Detect Evil scan would mean there was something unusual about them.

Zevox

I stand corrected, then.

In that case, if David's explanation is correct, then what's the deal with Xykon's evil-detecting crown? I remember Durkon's explanation of that but as I recall, the forumites seem to agree that it's very houserule-y.

[Zordrath]

Xykon's evil 'rubbed off' on the crown just by him wearing it, so turning an object into his soul-hidey place might well let it register as evil as well.

(assuming Rich's rules are consistent, of course, which house rules are often not)

[Zevox]

I stand corrected, then.

In that case, if David's explanation is correct, then what's the deal with Xykon's evil-detecting crown? I remember Durkon's explanation of that but as I recall, the forumites seem to agree that it's very houserule-y.
Yes, it was. There's nothing in the rules which would have objects that are in contact with an evil being, even a Lich, for a long time register as evil themselves. Obviously though, the Giant decided to implement it here as a sort of house rule. Perhaps because Xykon is a Lich, and therefore inherently supernatural, or perhaps it works for all evil beings; we don't know. Even if the latter is the case though, detecting as magic would be odd.

Zevox

[Zordrath]

Just remembered: The crown only let the wearer appear as evil, which Redcloak already is. Miko could not detect that the crown was the origin of the aura, so I don't know if some sort of detect evil could recognize the phylactery while Redcloak's carrying it.

[Kaytara]

Maybe there's some kind of feat for an Epic-level paladin that would allow him to locate and/or recognize soul-hidey-places at will?

[Zordrath]

That's what I thought, as well. Soon is a homebrewed entity of goodness, so perhaps he can just feel evil objects and creatures without specifically using Detect Evil.

[Uncle Festy]

Oh, dear.
That's so logically awesome, and yet so hard to notice, that it is quite likely to be true.
You, and this thread, deserve the Festy seal of approval.

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Snow-Seal-Print-C10054502.jpeg

[Assassin89]

For detect Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm), Miko only uses it for one round an attacks rather than the three rounds needed for a full assessment. Soon Kim, as a ghost, has a supernatural ability that act similarly to that three rounds.

[Kaytara]

Oh, dear.
That's so logically awesome, and yet so hard to notice, that it is quite likely to be true.
You, and this thread, deserve the Festy seal of approval.

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Snow-Seal-Print-C10054502.jpeg

*completely loses all composure*

D'aawwwwwwwwwwwwww! :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

Soon is not just a fighter type, he's a homebrewed paladin spirit of pure good with decades of experience in dealing with the most horrible manifestations of Evil. Maybe he's a little more proficient at detecting or recognizing evil artifacts than our clueless heroes?

Not unless he is given some such power as a plot-based ability. Recall here that he only has a few rounds to find this information out. Our heros have months of free time to research the matter. A couple of commune spells would allow Durkon to play 20 questions on the subject and nail down exactly what it is. The knowledge of Azure City was also available to them. [They can be presumed to have consulted them once they found out the need to know.] So is that of future cities they will be visiting or have visited. etc, etc. Of particular interest here is that the party associates the escape of Redcloak with the revival of Xykon. They will be seeking Redcloak and will thus automatically find Xykon. So our heros have plenty of ways to find out where the soul is, and/or how to find it.



If he's not destroyed, he can make a new attempt roughly every five days.
Technically six days [plus] since the figure is 5.5, which normally rounds to the even number. And it will take Xykon some time to return to the Gate and/or organize his attack.
Comic evidence is that it will be a much longer period. Xykon had to travel all the way South in the unholy symbol, a journey that likely took months.


Statistic dictates that he will succeed sooner or later. Plus, what kind of lame ending would 'we temporarily thwarted the villain!' be?
A pretty standard ending actually. We have him ready to use in the sequel. However, the literary point is that villains, once defeated, lose stature. They are no longer the unbeatable evil. Our superhero comics often feature the villains gaining new powers so they can again approach that status, but it's not fully successful. In the strip, go back and look at the posts about Roy's leap. Lots of us figured that since Roy had won the last fight, this was going to be an "easy" Roy victory.
So unless there is some fluke victory, Xykon beat once is Xykon beat every time.


I don't the believe the Giant is a bad enough a storyteller to keep a character alive (and even developing him!) just so he has an excuse of showing other characters torturing him.
But this is pretty much what your story has too. O-Chul can deliver the message without being racked.



Redcloak could easily have come up with another excuse, and I'm quite sure O-Chul will have a part to play sooner or later.
Possibly, but it would seem he hasn't much of one. You have him delivering just a one-line warning. And as an Azure City NPC, he will be off the stage soon.

[Zordrath]

Not unless he is given some such power as a plot-based ability. Recall here that he only has a few rounds to find this information out.
We have no way of knowing Soon's exact abilities. Maybe he could just sense it, maybe he's a capable guesser... doesn't really matter, I think.



Our heros have months of free time to research the matter. A couple of commune spells would allow Durkon to play 20 questions on the subject and nail down exactly what it is. The knowledge of Azure City was also available to them. [They can be presumed to have consulted them once they found out the need to know.] So is that of future cities they will be visiting or have visited. etc, etc. Of particular interest here is that the party associates the escape of Redcloak with the revival of Xykon. They will be seeking Redcloak and will thus automatically find Xykon. So our heros have plenty of ways to find out where the soul is, and/or how to find it.
Just how exactly should they research it? Look it up in the Azure library under 'X' for 'Xykon's phylactery, location of'? You can't research specific phylacteries, only their general nature. And the general phylactery is a box of scrolls, no holy symbol.

Granted, I'm no DnD buff so I don't know whether there are some specific cleric spells for such matters. But since Durkon couldn't even cast anything to find Xykon himself among the duplicates, I doubt he can find the phylactery. Thus, it boils down to guesswork.


A pretty standard ending actually. We have him ready to use in the sequel. However, the literary point is that villains, once defeated, lose stature. They are no longer the unbeatable evil. Our superhero comics often feature the villains gaining new powers so they can again approach that status, but it's not fully successful. In the strip, go back and look at the posts about Roy's leap. Lots of us figured that since Roy had won the last fight, this was going to be an "easy" Roy victory.
So unless there is some fluke victory, Xykon beat once is Xykon beat every time.
OOTS is no story with a planned sequel, however. It's a finite story, the Giant has said so multiple times. Do you honestly expect Xykon, of all people, to survive it? Redcloak, perhaps, and certainly the MitD, but I'm pretty sure Xykon has to be crushed for the story to be satisfyingly resolved, what with the Blood Oath and all.


Possibly, but it would seem he hasn't much of one. You have him delivering just a one-line warning. And as an Azure City NPC, he will be off the stage soon.
A one-line warning that is absolutely essential to defeating the most evil character of the comic. While not a main part, it's still a little more glorious than 'exists so Redcloak can justify establishing the Goblin nation and will then proceed to die in an arena fight with Tsukiko's gladiators.' O-Chul deserves more than that, and I'm sure he will get it. He might still die, but I'm certain he will get a chance to shine before that happens.

It's all just a theory, and maybe he'll contribute to the plot in a completely different way. I'm quite certain he will contribute something, though.

[Berserk Monk]

How? Sure, they know OF the phylactery. But both Xykon and Redcloak have been very careful to keep its location close to the chest, hence Xykon's shock at the fact that Soon knew of it. What makes you think the Order knows that Redcloak's holy symbol is Xykon's phylactery?

Also, they need the phylactery to permanently defeat him. So the phylactery and its status are hardly irrelevant for the final battle.

On a side note, exactly how long does it take a Lich to regrow his body, anyway?

Roy's father mentions it here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html)

[cezyou]

Roy's father mentions it here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html)

No, he just mentions that the lackeys have it. Not what it is.

[Kaytara]

Granted, I'm no DnD buff so I don't know whether there are some specific cleric spells for such matters. But since Durkon couldn't even cast anything to find Xykon himself among the duplicates, I doubt he can find the phylactery. Thus, it boils down to guesswork.

IMHO, that's not very telling though. Durkon can only cast spells he petitions his deity for every day. He likely prepared very straightforward spells for the battle, Thor's Lighting and healing spells, rather than something he had no idea he'd need.

David's right in that Durkon probably COULD, theoretically, divine the necessary info with a few spells... But we've never seen him demonstrate such an ability when it would've been extremely useful.
It's probably just one of those 'X didn't happen because then there would be no story'.

Storytelling-wise, a spell (or something else) that gives out critical information practically for free is horribly broken. I think this is why Rich has made the Oracle such a difficult person - sure, they COULD just ask him something, but they'd have to get there first, and it can only be one question per person, and then there's the chance that the answer won't help them much. Otherwise, it would just be too easy.
So yeah, I think this is one of those instances of Rich houseruling something to make the story present actual obstacles to the hero. Kind of similar with V not being able to cast teleportation.

[Decahedral Tofu]

Not good for O-Chul the fighter/pally. I mean, unless he didn't use wisdom as a dump stat.

But really. Who does that?He specifically states that he used Charisma as a dump stat in the comic. Could be a bluff, but bluffing outside of the 4th barrier is just weird.

[only1doug]

He specifically states that he used Charisma as a dump stat in the comic. Could be a bluff, but bluffing outside of the 4th barrier is just weird.

he used charisma as a dump stat, wisdom could be a second low stat as well. (O-Chul started out as a fighter, so wisdom wasn't exactly a priority).