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Kiero
2008-12-27, 02:59 PM
I'm playing in a Saga Edition game, currently 5th level (Scout 3/Jedi 2). It's not really an issue yet, because it's early in the game, but I'm thinking ahead to how things might be.

Later in the game, is it important for a melee-focused character to have multiple attacks? What purpose do they serve in the game - are they better for mook-clearing, or dealing more damage on important foes?

Is it better to focus on making sure your one attack hits and does lots of damage (through things like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Juyo), or have more than one chance to hit (DWM/Double Attack, Multi-Attack proficiency, etc)? Or is Power Attack>Cleave better for a mook-mashing option?

I'm largely going down the route of one attack early on (I'll be getting Powerful Charge and Shii-Cho - the latter negates the problems defensively of charging), but post 10th level I'm thinking about whether or not I need Double Attack and Multi-attack Prof, or if I'd be better off going Focus, Specialisation, Juyo.

DWM is out, because that's where the other Jedi character is headed (already got Weapon Finesse, will get Ataru and DWM), and I don't want to step on their toes.

I'm not going for super-optimisation here, just wondering if it's necessary or not.

Lert, A.
2008-12-27, 04:25 PM
Power Attack>Cleave would be my recommendation only if you are concerned about mook rushes.

If you are going to take a penalty to attack anyways, better to make sure that the attack drops the enemy. Cleave lets you hit again if you drop the first guy.

Later game it becomes kind of useless though. At least Power Attack stays useful, but cleave is not so good.

Multiple attacks are best at higher level. That way, if you miss on the first attack because of bad dice rolling, you get another chance, instead of missing and setting yourself up for the bad guy's turn. Higher level games, you want to take out the BBEG(s) as fast as possible.

Overall, you get more use out of Multi-attack in the long run.

Saph
2008-12-27, 04:39 PM
Short answer is "not".

I played a Jedi from 1st to 6th-level and managed just fine with a single attack. With the exception of a few very specialised highish-level builds, SWSE characters can't move and multi-attack, which means you have to start off next to an opponent to use multiple attacks on them. In my experience it's very rare to start off in melee range of an opponent unless they're melee-focused too (in which case the attack penalties will hurt you almost as much).

Most mooks, when confronted with a lightsaber-wielding Jedi, will back off and shoot or grenade them. Unless they're just stupid. In which case it doesn't really matter.

- Saph

Kiero
2008-12-27, 04:59 PM
Power Attack>Cleave would be my recommendation only if you are concerned about mook rushes.

If you are going to take a penalty to attack anyways, better to make sure that the attack drops the enemy. Cleave lets you hit again if you drop the first guy.

Later game it becomes kind of useless though. At least Power Attack stays useful, but cleave is not so good.

Alright, but Cleave was more of a sidebar question. Not sure I'll have the Feats to spare.


Multiple attacks are best at higher level. That way, if you miss on the first attack because of bad dice rolling, you get another chance, instead of missing and setting yourself up for the bad guy's turn. Higher level games, you want to take out the BBEG(s) as fast as possible.

Overall, you get more use out of Multi-attack in the long run.

This is kind of what I was thinking; is there much meaningful difference between going DWM and using Double Attack.

I know getting Double Attack to no-penalty (or close) levels is one Feat and two Talents, where DWM just needs three Feats (or two and a Talent - the same as DA).

You could get "another chance" with Juyo, which is just one Talent (with one Feat and one Talent pre-requisites, but useful ones). Is that better than getting more attacks?


Short answer is "not".

I played a Jedi from 1st to 6th-level and managed just fine with a single attack. With the exception of a few very specialised highish-level builds, SWSE characters can't move and multi-attack, which means you have to start off next to an opponent to use multiple attacks on them. In my experience it's very rare to start off in melee range of an opponent unless they're melee-focused too (in which case the attack penalties will hurt you almost as much).

Most mooks, when confronted with a lightsaber-wielding Jedi, will back off and shoot or grenade them. Unless they're just stupid. In which case it doesn't really matter.

- Saph

So less useful for mooks, who won't close anyway? I know full-attacks are hard to make "stick" for intelligent opponents. Especially those who don't melee.

What about BBEGs? If they're melee-ers as well, surely it's not in their interests to withdraw if they've got full-round laying of the smack?

I'm thinking 10th level onwards, by the time my character hits 9th (and will be Scout 4/Jedi 4/Jedi Knight 1) he'll be relying on Powerful Charge and Battlestrike for his mashing-mojo.

I've started down the road of one attack that is highly likely to hit and do lots of damage. Later on I'm wondering if it's useful to add the option of being able to stand and multi-attack if my opponent isn't running away.


So in summation of both, is it more useful to have one attack that hits (or you can re-roll with Juyo) or the flexibility of being able to take multiple swings?

Saph
2008-12-27, 05:07 PM
So in summation of both, is it more useful to have one attack that hits (or you can re-roll with Juyo) or the flexibility of being able to take multiple swings?

Mathematically, the one big attack will probably do more damage. However, it can get repetitive always going "move, attack" and multiple attacks does give more flexibility. Your call, really.

Multiple attacks on a big tough opponent do double the chance of a critical hit, which helps make up for the -5.

- Saph

Lert, A.
2008-12-27, 05:07 PM
So in summation of both, is it more useful to have one attack that hits (or you can re-roll with Juyo) or the flexibility of being able to take multiple swings?

One solid hit is best. The only good way to use multiple attacks is to get into the Melee Duelist PrC for some of the talents.

Kiero
2008-12-27, 05:14 PM
Mathematically, the one big attack will probably do more damage. However, it can get repetitive always going "move, attack" and multiple attacks does give more flexibility. Your call, really.

Multiple attacks on a big tough opponent do double the chance of a critical hit, which helps make up for the -5.

- Saph

Thing is I'm not super-optimised and won't be. I'll probably get more Jedi levels after Jedi Knight to pick up Clear Mind and Force Haze, for example. Also for Feats, like getting Weapon Focus (lightsabers) or more levels of Martial Arts. But I'd like to still be able to stand up to the big, tough opponents in melee. Even if I won't be equal to the DWM-Ataru pure Jedi.

So it becomes a question of use of finite resources. I either use feats to get Double Attack and one or possibly two levels of Multi-attack Proficiency to give me a second option that isn't "charge and smack". I note loads of signature characters have Double Attack, though they're not the best built.

Or I further refine my "charge and smack" with Juyo (Weapon Focus and Specialisation to get there...), maybe Soresu (combined with Shii-Cho means he's very hard to hit indeed, even after the penalties of charging) or Vaapad as well.


One solid hit is best. The only good way to use multiple attacks is to get into the Melee Duelist PrC for some of the talents.

So you don't much rate Double Attack combined with Multi-attack Proficiency?

Melee Duellist is out really, it doesn't fit my character and might mean re-jigging my rough path just for that (besides he's too dumb for Melee Defense :smalltongue:). It's unlikely that I'll get anything bar more Jedi Knight and Jedi levels after 9th level. Not sure even Jedi Master is likely, or at least anything more than one level.

Lert, A.
2008-12-27, 05:32 PM
So you don't much rate Double Attack combined with Multi-attack Proficiency?

Not too highly favored I would say. Double Attack is nice for a backup if you are in a good position to use a full attack, and a single feat expenditure for the occasional good setup is a good tradeoff.

I would still concentrate on hitting hard and if you can get that extra hit in once in a while, all the better.

Kiero
2008-12-27, 05:38 PM
Not too highly favored I would say. Double Attack is nice for a backup if you are in a good position to use a full attack, and a single feat expenditure for the occasional good setup is a good tradeoff.

I would still concentrate on hitting hard and if you can get that extra hit in once in a while, all the better.

So if I have it as a backup option, is it not worth the Talent Multi-attack Prof would cost to at least make it more viable?

Would that Talent be better spent, say on Juyo or indeed Weapon Specialisation?

Lert, A.
2008-12-27, 06:00 PM
So if I have it as a backup option, is it not worth the Talent Multi-attack Prof would cost to at least make it more viable?

Would that Talent be better spent, say on Juyo or indeed Weapon Specialisation?

Both of those talents have a better damage output per encounter on average since you can't guarantee that you will be able to full attack. If your game seems to include more opportunities for full attacks you can take Multi-attack, but either of these other talent would be preferable if it's a once in a while thing.

Edit: Rapid Strike only gives you a -2 for an extra die damage, which a good tradeoff and can be used with a standard attack. You can get can get more use from this as a single attack striker and don't need to dump a talent to make it worthwhile.

Lemur
2008-12-27, 06:29 PM
I'd argue that having both Rapid Strike and Power Attack is unnecessary, unless you plan on power attacking for full all the time. If you're holding a lightsaber in two hands, then the damage trade off is 4 points for a -2 penalty against an average damage of 4.5 with Rapid Strike, which is only marginally better. Power Attack is probably better because it can be adjusted better.

Also, charge and smack isn't that bad of a tactic. If you have Acrobatic Strike, you can tumble away from or past someone and then immediately charge them in the same round for a +5 on your attack. Combined with Powerful Charge, you've got a good cushion for power attack. Perhaps a bit gimmicky, but it gives you something to do when you are starting your turn standing next to someone.

Kiero
2008-12-27, 06:43 PM
Both of those talents have a better damage output per encounter on average since you can't guarantee that you will be able to full attack. If your game seems to include more opportunities for full attacks you can take Multi-attack, but either of these other talent would be preferable if it's a once in a while thing.

Yeah, back-pocket kind of option, taking Multi-attack later perhaps, if it turns out I use it regularly.


Edit: Rapid Strike only gives you a -2 for an extra die damage, which a good tradeoff and can be used with a standard attack. You can get can get more use from this as a single attack striker and don't need to dump a talent to make it worthwhile.

Not a fan of Rapid Strike, my character doesn't struggle to do damage (Str 16), and I've always got Battle Strike for some extra, and a hit bonus too.


I'd argue that having both Rapid Strike and Power Attack is unnecessary, unless you plan on power attacking for full all the time. If you're holding a lightsaber in two hands, then the damage trade off is 4 points for a -2 penalty against an average damage of 4.5 with Rapid Strike, which is only marginally better. Power Attack is probably better because it can be adjusted better.

As above, if it's got a penalty to hit, just for more damage, I'm not too keen on it.


Also, charge and smack isn't that bad of a tactic. If you have Acrobatic Strike, you can tumble away from or past someone and then immediately charge them in the same round for a +5 on your attack. Combined with Powerful Charge, you've got a good cushion for power attack. Perhaps a bit gimmicky, but it gives you something to do when you are starting your turn standing next to someone.

Does sound a little cheesy. More to the point, the other Jedi has Acrobatic Strike, so I'm staying away from that. Good spot, though.

You've brought something up I didn't consider; does Power Attack work with Powerful Charge? Is it a good trade-off, or even necessary given Powerful Charge gives you bonus damage?

Can always withdraw and re-charge, of course.

Lert, A.
2008-12-27, 06:45 PM
I'd argue that having both Rapid Strike and Power Attack is unnecessary, unless you plan on power attacking for full all the time. If you're holding a lightsaber in two hands, then the damage trade off is 4 points for a -2 penalty against an average damage of 4.5 with Rapid Strike, which is only marginally better. Power Attack is probably better because it can be adjusted better.

Agreed. However, you can use Rapid Strike in conjunction with Power Attack if you feel that you can handle the extra penalty, plus the damage tradeoff is better with Rapid Strike if you end up having to fight one-handed. Which could happen, this being Star Wars and all.:smallwink:

Just giving out a few more options.

EDIT: see Kiero's new post. Just throwing it out there. Also, Power Attack and Powerful Charge can be used together.

Kiero
2008-12-27, 07:08 PM
Just so everyone knows where I'm coming from, this is my character at present:


Coll Arranda CL 5

Medium Human Jedi 2/scout 3
Init +9; Senses Perception +9
Languages Basic

Defenses Ref 20 (flat-footed 17), Fort 17, Will 18; Deflect, Evasion
hp 63; Threshold 17

Speed 8 squares
Melee lightsaber +7 (2d8+5) or
Melee lightsaber +7 (2d8+8) with both hands or
Melee combat gloves +7 (1d6+6)
Ranged blaster rifle +6 (3d8+2) or
Ranged blaster rifle +1 (3d8+2) with autofire
Base Atk +4; Grp +7
Atk Options autofire (blaster rifle),
Special Actions Shake It Off
Force Powers Known (Use The Force +8) battle strike, move object, surge

Abilities Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12
Talents Deflect, Evasion, Long Stride
Feats Force Sensitive, Force Training, Martial Arts I, Shake it Off, Skill Training (2), Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers, pistols, rifles, simple)
Skills Acrobatics +9, Athletics* +10, Endurance +8, Initiative +9, Perception +9, Stealth +9, Survival +9, Use the Force +8

*In this game the GM has merged Climb, Jump and Swim into one skill, Athletics.

Plan for the next few levels is thus:
Level 6: Jedi 3, Block [Jedi Talent], Force Training (Negate Energy, Rebuke, Vital Transfer) [6th level Character Feat]
Level 7: Scout 4, Skill Focus (Use the Force) [Scout Bonus Feat]
Level 8: Jedi 4, Powerful Charge [Jedi Bonus Feat], +1 Con, +1 Cha [8th level Ability Boost]
Level 9: Jedi Knight 1, Shii-Cho [Jedi Knight Talent], Force Training (Surge, Battlestrike, Sever Force) [9th level Character Feat]
Level 10: Jedi Knight 2, Force Point Recovery [Jedi Knight Technique]

Then it gets a bit hazy after that. I'm fairly certain I'm heading back into Jedi again for Clear Mind and Force Haze. Probably Weapon Focus (lightsaber) in between those so I've got the option of Specialisation and Juyo. Possibly some more Martial Arts.

When he hits Jedi Knight, he's going to ditch the rifle, since it's part of him accepting that he's a Jedi now.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-27, 08:25 PM
Also, charge and smack isn't that bad of a tactic. If you have Acrobatic Strike, you can tumble away from or past someone and then immediately charge them in the same round for a +5 on your attack. Combined with Powerful Charge, you've got a good cushion for power attack. Perhaps a bit gimmicky, but it gives you something to do when you are starting your turn standing next to someone.

Actually, with the huge and all-encompassing errata, Acrobatic Strike only gives a +2 bonus.

(Holy heck, comparing the errata to the book again, some of it is really needed. Forge Grip had a range of "6 meters or line of sight" - what?)

Kiero
2008-12-27, 08:30 PM
Actually, with the huge and all-encompassing errata, Acrobatic Strike only gives a +2 bonus.

In our group the GM's ignoring that revision, since it then compares pretty infavourably with ordinary charging, which doesn't even require a Feat. Plus one of the PCs has already sunk a Feat into it. I still won't get it, since it's that other PC's preserve.

Talya
2008-12-27, 08:58 PM
Taking Dual Weapon Mastery I (without bothering with II or III) and a one level dip in the Melee Duelist PrC (For "Dual Weapon Flourish I") is really worth it for a lightsaber duelist. It allows you, whenever you make an attack as a standard action at your full BAB, to take an offhand attack (at -5, you can eliminate that penalty with DWM2 and 3) as a free action.

Combine that with a guard shoto in your off hand (2d4 short lightsaber that grants +2 to block/deflect rolls) and you boost your offense and defense substantially.


Actually, with the huge and all-encompassing errata, Acrobatic Strike only gives a +2 bonus.



That errata makes Acrobatic Strike entirely worthless as a feat.

The only "nerf" that acrobatic strike needed was the Tumble Defense feat. With that in the game, the +5 bonus is fine.

Lemur
2008-12-27, 09:04 PM
Actually, with the huge and all-encompassing errata, Acrobatic Strike only gives a +2 bonus.

(Holy heck, comparing the errata to the book again, some of it is really needed. Forge Grip had a range of "6 meters or line of sight" - what?)

I suspect the original wording of Force Grip was to explain how Darth Vader can choke anyone he's looking at, even if it's through a video screen broadcasting from another part of the galaxy.

But yeah, haven't seen the errata for a while. Looking it up now, though.


Edit: At some point I was told that the errata said that double weapons don't count as two-handed for purposes of strength damage and power attack (the original text says nothing on the matter, suggesting that both ends of a double weapon gain double your strength bonus to damage and 2:1 power attack ratio) but I haven't been able to find it.

Mando Knight
2008-12-27, 09:32 PM
(Holy heck, comparing the errata to the book again, some of it is really needed. Forge Grip had a range of "6 meters or line of sight" - what?)

Force Grip's range is 6 squares or line of sight... or somewhere between 9 and 12 meters (depending on the size you give a single square, somewhere between 1.5 and 2 meters usually, I believe) without line of sight, infinite with line of sight... i.e. you can Grip around a corner even if you can't see the guy, and like Lemur said, you can also Grip someone you can sufficiently see over Holonet communications even if he's across the Galaxy.

Anyway, I agree with Talya's suggestion. The Melee Duelist PrC allows you to use multiple attacks as a standard action, allowing far more maneuverability than normal. My question is, can you use the Weapon Flourish III's standard action full attack option as a part of a charge?

Kiero
2008-12-28, 06:06 AM
Taking Dual Weapon Mastery I (without bothering with II or III) and a one level dip in the Melee Duelist PrC (For "Dual Weapon Flourish I") is really worth it for a lightsaber duelist. It allows you, whenever you make an attack as a standard action at your full BAB, to take an offhand attack (at -5, you can eliminate that penalty with DWM2 and 3) as a free action.

Combine that with a guard shoto in your off hand (2d4 short lightsaber that grants +2 to block/deflect rolls) and you boost your offense and defense substantially.

I'll recommend that to the other Jedi's player. Not only is two-weapon style her schtick, but she's got the Intelligence to get Melee Defense (her Int is presently 13) and already has Finesse. My character doesn't, and wouldn't have it before level 16 if I kept putting one of my raises into Int.

Besides I haven't got room for Melee Defense, or Weapon Finesse - which I don't need as a Str-based fighter. Double attack is there if I went Single Weapon Flourish, but it seems a lot of feats and Attribute raises for not much gain.

Are there any non-full-attack for Str-based melee-ist options? Ones that fit better with where I'm going?

What does "standard action at full BAB" mean? Is that not using other abilities like Rapid Strike or Double Attack that give you penalties to hit?


That errata makes Acrobatic Strike entirely worthless as a feat.

The only "nerf" that acrobatic strike needed was the Tumble Defense feat. With that in the game, the +5 bonus is fine.

Or at most making it +4 would make it equal to Powerful Charge. As you say with the Tumble Defense Feat it's fine.

EDIT: Actually reducing the bonus wouldn't make it equal to Powerful Charge, since AS doesn't give damage bonuses.


Edit: At some point I was told that the errata said that double weapons don't count as two-handed for purposes of strength damage and power attack (the original text says nothing on the matter, suggesting that both ends of a double weapon gain double your strength bonus to damage and 2:1 power attack ratio) but I haven't been able to find it.

That would make double-weapons the optimal choice over two-weapon, though it does make sense.


[snip]

Anyway, I agree with Talya's suggestion. The Melee Duelist PrC allows you to use multiple attacks as a standard action, allowing far more maneuverability than normal. My question is, can you use the Weapon Flourish III's standard action full attack option as a part of a charge?

As above, I'll recommend it. Not really an option for my character, though (see post #14).


Um, instead of all that investment to get a level of Melee Duellist, why not just get the Mobile Attack Talent? After a two-weapon full attack, you can make a normal move as free action. That would surely allow you to follow up a retreating opponent?

Talya
2008-12-28, 10:47 AM
What does "standard action at full BAB" mean? Is that not using other abilities like Rapid Strike or Double Attack that give you penalties to hit?



The talent Dual Weapon Flourish 1 says that whenever you make an attack with a weapon in your main hand (any attack at all, it doesn't even specify standard action), you get to make an attack with your offhand against the same target as a free action. It specifies that any penalties you may have associated with attacking with both hands apply to your offhand, free action attack, but the point was that those penalties do NOT apply to your main hand. As it is worded, this is usable with rapid strike, charges, etc. Any bonuses or penalties from other attack features would apply to both attacks, but only the offhand attack gets the dual weapon fighting penalty.

Kiero
2008-12-28, 04:16 PM
The talent Dual Weapon Flourish 1 says that whenever you make an attack with a weapon in your main hand (any attack at all, it doesn't even specify standard action), you get to make an attack with your offhand against the same target as a free action. It specifies that any penalties you may have associated with attacking with both hands apply to your offhand, free action attack, but the point was that those penalties do NOT apply to your main hand. As it is worded, this is usable with rapid strike, charges, etc. Any bonuses or penalties from other attack features would apply to both attacks, but only the offhand attack gets the dual weapon fighting penalty.

What makes it better than Mobile Attack (which is much cheaper to come by)?

The_Snark
2008-12-28, 04:30 PM
Where is the Mobile Attack talent from? I haven't been able to find it in any of the books I have access to.

As for why it's better, assuming that Mobile Attack does exactly what you just said, Dual Weapon Flourish is better because it lets you move and then make two attacks. (Although it actually does specify a standard action attack, so no using it on a full attack/attack of opportunity, and charging is debatable.) It also leaves you a swift action, which allows you to use things like Battle Strike.

Kiero
2008-12-28, 05:52 PM
Where is the Mobile Attack talent from? I haven't been able to find it in any of the books I have access to.

It's from the KotOR sourcebook, under new Jedi Knight Talents:


Mobile Attack (lightsabers)
Immediately after making a full attack where you attack with two lightsabers (or both ends of a double lightsaber), you may move up to your speed as a free action.
Prerequisites: Multiattack Proficiency (lightsabers), Dual Weapon Mastery, Weapon Focus (lightsabers)


As for why it's better, assuming that Mobile Attack does exactly what you just said, Dual Weapon Flourish is better because it lets you move and then make two attacks. (Although it actually does specify a standard action attack, so no using it on a full attack/attack of opportunity, and charging is debatable.) It also leaves you a swift action, which allows you to use things like Battle Strike.

So you're better off being able to move and full attack, than full attack then move?

Vic_Sage
2008-12-28, 06:39 PM
It's from the KotOR sourcebook, under new Jedi Knight
So you're better off being able to move and full attack, than full attack then move?
Let me put it this way, you may get that Full attack one turn, and then you have to move afterward with no real idea of where your opponent is going to go and your going to have to eat a AoO. Dual Weapon Flourish is better seeing how you can move to whether they are and then attack and just keep doing it.

Lert, A.
2008-12-28, 07:15 PM
Are there any non-full-attack for Str-based melee-ist options? Ones that fit better with where I'm going?

Unfortunately, no. All the good melee builds are Dex dependent. The feats mentioned already are best ways to make a Str(iker), but there are oodles of options for Dex builds.

Hopefully this will change with the upcoming sourcebooks.

Talya
2008-12-29, 09:48 AM
What makes it better than Mobile Attack (which is much cheaper to come by)?

A few reasons:

The biggest one -- to use a both attacks in the same round you charge or move to open combat, you need to move BEFORE your full attack action, not after. An opponent with Running Attack leaves an opponent with mobile attack just as unable to use multiple attacks against him as anybody else. Mobile Attack is good for hit and run tactics, but it isn't all that useful in a duel, apart from messing up another person who makes multiple attacks. It could be decent defensively to prevent multiple attacks while allowing you to make them, at least until your opponent wises up and stops charging you (Unless they have the melee duelist PrC).

Secondly, mobile attack leaves all your attacks still subject to any attack penalties from multiattack/two weapon fighting. You can go a very feat/talent intensive path to eliminating those penalties, but for fewer prerequisites (and likely ones you were going to take anyway), you can get higher reflex defense (it's got +4 on the class), and the penalty to dual weilding only applies on your free off hand attack, you still make your main hand at full bonus--only your offhand attack suffers the penalty.

Correct me if I'm misremembering here...I never use full attack actions, but I believe in SWSE, a full attack action also uses up your swift action for the round as well. The Dual Weapon Flourish I ability from melee duelist PrC does not.

Kiero
2008-12-29, 10:24 AM
A few reasons:

The biggest one -- to use a both attacks in the same round you charge or move to open combat, you need to move BEFORE your full attack action, not after. An opponent with Running Attack leaves an opponent with mobile attack just as unable to use multiple attacks against him as anybody else. Mobile Attack is good for hit and run tactics, but it isn't all that useful in a duel, apart from messing up another person who makes multiple attacks. It could be decent defensively to prevent multiple attacks while allowing you to make them, at least until your opponent wises up and stops charging you (Unless they have the melee duelist PrC).

Although it gets back to an issue; if it's a duel, presumably with another melee combatant, why are they moving around so much if it messes with their ability to get multiple attacks?

If they're a Melee Duellist, they'll be pretty constrained in what they can get to qualify for the class, which means they may not have Running Attack.

If you're chasing a ranged specialist on the other hand who's two-gunning you, how does that affect things?


Secondly, mobile attack leaves all your attacks still subject to any attack penalties from multiattack/two weapon fighting. You can go a very feat/talent intensive path to eliminating those penalties, but for fewer prerequisites (and likely ones you were going to take anyway), you can get higher reflex defense (it's got +4 on the class), and the penalty to dual weilding only applies on your free off hand attack, you still make your main hand at full bonus--only your offhand attack suffers the penalty.

Well, to qualify for Mobile Attack in the first place you're only at -3/-3 since you have to have a level of Multiattack Prof.

I thought the dual-wielding bonus applied to both main and off-hand, not just off-hand?


Correct me if I'm misremembering here...I never use full attack actions, but I believe in SWSE, a full attack action also uses up your swift action for the round as well. The Dual Weapon Flourish I ability from melee duelist PrC does not.

Full attack means you get nothing else - so yes you lose your swift action. Though with the errata charging ends your turn too, so if you haven't yet taken your swift action you lose it.

What would you do with that swift action you've lost? Is all the hoops you jump through for Melee Duellist worth it for that?

I'd be looking at Single Weapon Flourish here, by the way, dual-wielding is out on niche grounds (that's the other character's gig).

Talya
2008-12-29, 10:40 AM
Although it gets back to an issue; if it's a duel, presumably with another melee combatant, why are they moving around so much if it messes with their ability to get multiple attacks?

Well, that's the thing with these combat options...they're tactical in nature.

Running Attack allows an opponent who has NOT taken any form of multiple attack path to bring an opponent who has down to their level. A jedi with running attack can completely shut down any multi-attack opportunities of his opponent, unless that opponent has found a way to circumvent it (like dual weapon flourish or similar).

Mobile Attack feat allows an opponent who DOES have a form of multiple attacks to take them, then tumble away, shutting down the multiple attack opportunities of his opponent. Of course, his opponent can choose to just stay away and wait for you to get in close again after, but it adds a level of strategy again.

Dual Weapon Flourish (and the similar multiattack talents from Melee Duelist PrC) allows you to make two attacks and move, before or afterward...so it provides everything mobile attack does and more.



If they're a Melee Duellist, they'll be pretty constrained in what they can get to qualify for the class, which means they may not have Running Attack.

Probably, but the melee duellist doesn't need running attack (see above).


If you're chasing a ranged specialist on the other hand who's two-gunning you, how does that affect things?

Better have redirect.




Well, to qualify for Mobile Attack in the first place you're only at -3/-3 since you have to have a level of Multiattack Prof.

Possibly, I got turned off mobile attack immediately upon looking at it and never considered it again, because one guy with running attack can still ruin your day.


I thought the dual-wielding bonus applied to both main and off-hand, not just off-hand?

I assume you mean penalty, not bonus. That's the beauty of Dual Weapon Flourish 1...as I said above, only your free attack (off hand)suffers the dual-weilding penalty.






What would you do with that swift action you've lost? Is all the hoops you jump through for Melee Duellist worth it for that?

Keep Lightsaber Defense active (takes a swift action every round)? Activate a quickened force power? Snap up something on the ground with improved move light object and hurl it at your enemy to distract them (or simply retrieve your disarmed lightsaber with improved MLO)? You might not always need it, but it can matter.

And Melee Duellist doesn't have much for "hoops." Every single requirement are things I generally take on a lightsaber combat monkey anyway. (Weapon Focus is required for Juyo.)

I'd be looking at Single Weapon Flourish here, by the way, dual-wielding is out on niche grounds (that's the other character's gig).[/QUOTE]

Single Weapon multiattack talents have different mechanics, as I recall, make sure of them before you go into it.

Kiero
2008-12-29, 11:08 AM
I've re-ordered your points a little, because they make more sense to address together.


Well, that's the thing with these combat options...they're tactical in nature.

Running Attack allows an opponent who has NOT taken any form of multiple attack path to bring an opponent who has down to their level. A jedi with running attack can completely shut down any multi-attack opportunities of his opponent, unless that opponent has found a way to circumvent it (like dual weapon flourish or similar).

Mobile Attack feat allows an opponent who DOES have a form of multiple attacks to take them, then tumble away, shutting down the multiple attack opportunities of his opponent. Of course, his opponent can choose to just stay away and wait for you to get in close again after, but it adds a level of strategy again.

Dual Weapon Flourish (and the similar multiattack talents from Melee Duelist PrC) allows you to make two attacks and move, before or afterward...so it provides everything mobile attack does and more.


Possibly, I got turned off mobile attack immediately upon looking at it and never considered it again, because one guy with running attack can still ruin your day.


And Melee Duellist doesn't have much for "hoops." Every single requirement are things I generally take on a lightsaber combat monkey anyway. (Weapon Focus is required for Juyo.)

You've just made me realise something. For my character, Melee Duellist does have a lot of hoops - the primary one being Melee Defense. His Intelligence is 10, I'd have to use my 8th, 12th and 16th level attribute increases to get it to the requisite level (assuming not boosts from fulfilling Destiny). Then there's a dead feat in Rapid Strike; dead because with Str 16 I don't struggle to do damage. Then there's another dead feat in Weapon Finesse - again I don't have trouble doing damage - which is needed for either Dual or Single Weapon Flourish.

The only thing out of the Feats required that's useful to my character is Weapon Focus.

It sounds like all the good stuff is in Dual Weapon Flourish in any case - two-weapon isn't my character's schtick. Because that's what the other Jedi is about. She's Dex-based, and already has Finesse and is headed for Ataru and DWM. Rapid Strike is something that would be useful to her to get more damage in.

Anyway, to get to my point, maybe I'm simply wasting my time trying to keep up with multi-attackers. I should just get Running Attack to continually frustrate them (between Surge and Long Stride, my character is very mobile). Shame it doesn't stack with charging, post-errata, but you can't have everything. Then maybe look towards Cleave for a mook-mashing option?


I assume you mean penalty, not bonus. That's the beauty of Dual Weapon Flourish 1...as I said above, only your free attack (off hand)suffers the dual-weilding penalty.

Sorry you're right, that should have been penalty. Again sounds like it's good for a dual-wielder, not so good if you've got one weapon.


Single Weapon multiattack talents have different mechanics, as I recall, make sure of them before you go into it.

It needs Double Attack, in place of DWM, but is otherwise identical. But DW-Flourish says you "apply the normal two-weapon penalties". Which means all attacks, not just your off hand suffer the penalties. Saga doesn't make any distinction between "off hand" and "main hand" (not under the Full Attack Options on p154).


Keep Lightsaber Defense active (takes a swift action every round)? Activate a quickened force power? Snap up something on the ground with improved move light object and hurl it at your enemy to distract them (or simply retrieve your disarmed lightsaber with improved MLO)? You might not always need it, but it can matter.

Fair enough.

Talya
2008-12-29, 11:25 AM
Anyway, to get to my point, maybe I'm simply wasting my time trying to keep up with multi-attackers. I should just get Running Attack to continually frustrate them (between Surge and Long Stride, my character is very mobile).

That will work against all but the most specialized lightsaber opponents. To compensate for the ones that are specialized enough to use multiple attacks against you anyway, you'll want to make your defense impecable. Soresu, Shii-Cho, Skill Focus (Use the Force) --but what jedi doesn't take that one--and perhaps to improve those few attacks you take, Juyo would be excellent as well (with Force Point Recovery, of course). At late levels the Juyo-Vaapad-Triple Crit option is fantastic...if you're only taking a single attack, make it count. A 19% chance of doing triple damage every round is going to help a lot.

Take Riposte, too, to get in that extra attack once in a while to surprise your enemy (and lower his block bonus by -5 on your turn).

Kiero
2008-12-29, 11:39 AM
That will work against all but the most specialized lightsaber opponents. To compensate for the ones that are specialized enough to use multiple attacks against you anyway, you'll want to make your defense impecable. Soresu, Shii-Cho, Skill Focus (Use the Force) --but what jedi doesn't take that one--and perhaps to improve those few attacks you take, Juyo would be excellent as well (with Force Point Recovery, of course). At late levels the Juyo-Vaapad-Triple Crit option is fantastic...if you're only taking a single attack, make it count. A 19% chance of doing triple damage every round is going to help a lot.

Take Riposte, too, to get in that extra attack once in a while to surprise your enemy.

Excellent, a lot of that fits in with what I was already getting. Skill Focus UtF like you say is a must; I'm getting that at 7th level. Shii-Cho was already on my hit list for 9th level. Force Point Recovery for 10th level.

Would Soresu be too defensive? Particularly given limited Talents (I was looking to get Force Haze, which will cost two) I'd rather get Juyo and possibly Riposte (that last is a good spot - a means of getting an extra attack against nasty opponents).

Though I'm getting to the stage where I wonder if I should just forget about Force Haze, like I did being an armoured Jedi.

Talya
2008-12-29, 11:58 AM
Would Soresu be too defensive?

I like Soresu much better than Shii-Cho, and given a choice between the two, I'll pick Soresu first. There's a tradeoff...Soresu makes you much better against a single opponent, but while still significantly better against multiple opponents, it does leave you more vulnerable to such treachery as Order 66, or other situations where you're being fired upon by an entire army. Shii-Cho does very little to help against a single opponent (other than improving your odds against secondary attacks from multiattackers), but makes you much more effective when 10 guys at once start shooting at you.

Of course, both together are exponentially more effective.

Riposte only works once per encounter, btw, but it's still an excellent talent for the lightsaber duellist, I believe.

In the game I'm currently playing (a KotOR based game where all players are jedi), the DM has rolled block/deflect/lightsaber defense 1 into a single talent, which left me a bit more wiggle room for talents. My build for a human (echani) jedi is going like this (by memory, I don't have the books handy to check my planned progression exactly. We're currently level 5):

Jedi
1 - Weapon Finesse, Force Training//Block-deflect-LS1
2 - Rapid Strike
3 - Weapon Focus (Lightsaber)//Weapon Specialization (Lightsaber)
4 - Melee Defense
5 - Riposte
6 - Force Training, Skill Focus (Use The Force)
7 - Redirect

Jedi Knight
8 - Soresu

Melee Duelist
9 - Dual Weapon Mastery I//Dual weapon Flourish I

Jedi Knight
10 - Force Point Recovery
11 - Juyo
12 - Force Training//Improved Move Light Object
13 - Ataru
14 - Improved Sense Surroundings
15 - Triple Crit//Vaapad
16 - {insert force technique here}
17 - Shii-Cho
18 - Force Training//{insert Force technique here}

Scout
19 - Evasion

Jedi Master
20 - ???? // profit

With the errata on Force Point Recovery limiting you to taking it once, I may skip the last level of knight and take an additional level of master.

We're on a 45 point buy. I used strength as a dump stat. I think at level 5 I've got ability scores of 8/18/12/13/16/18 (including the level 4 +1s having gone into dex and cha).

There's a character in my party playing something of a force-mage type of jedi. She doesn't care for lightsaber combat, but uses a lightwhip when she must. I'm going to convince her to take whirlwind attack...nothing like hitting everything within reach when you can reach 24 squares at once (2 square range on the lightwhip.)

Kiero
2008-12-29, 12:28 PM
I'm expecting my character at 10th level to be thus:


Coll Arranda CL 10

Medium Human Jedi 4/scout 4/Jedi Knight 2
Init +12; Senses Perception +12
Languages Basic

Defenses Ref 25 (flat-footed 22), Fort 24, Will 24; Block, Deflect, Evasion, Shii-Cho
hp 114; Threshold 24

Speed 8 squares
Melee lightsaber +12 (2d8+7) or
Melee lightsaber +12 (2d8+10) with both hands or
Melee lightsaber +16 (2d8+14) with Powerful Charge or
Melee unarmed +11 (1d6+7) or
Melee unarmed +15 (1d6+11) with Powerful Charge
Ranged by weapon +11
Base Atk +9; Grp +12
Atk Options Powerful Charge
Special Actions Shake It Off
Force Powers Known (Use The Force +16) battle strike (2), move object, negate energy, rebuke, sever Force, surge (2), vital transfer
Force Techniques Force Point Recovery

Abilities Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 13
Special Qualities build lightsaber
Talents Block, Deflect, Evasion, Long Stride, Shii-Cho
Feats Force Sensitive, Force Training (3), Martial Arts I, Powerful Charge, Shake it Off, Skill Focus (Use the Force), Skill Training (2), Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers, pistols, rifles, simple)
Skills Acrobatics +12, Climb +13, Endurance +12, Initiative +12, Perception +12, Stealth +12, Survival +12, Use the Force +16


Then my plan going forward is something like this:

Level 11: Jedi 5, Riposte
Level 12: Jedi 6, Weapon Focus (lightsabers), Running Attack (?), +1 Wis +1 Cha
Level 13: Jedi 7, Weapon Specialisation
Level 14: Jedi Knight 3, Juyo
Level 15: Jedi Master 1 (and only...), Power Attack (?), Cleave (?)
Level 16: Jedi 8, Martial Arts II , +1 Int +1 Wis (3 more Force powers)
Level 17: Jedi 9, Force Perception (Knowledge: Life Science becomes new trained skill) or Clear Mind (?)
Level 18: Jedi Knight 4 (?), Improved Move Light Object, Martial Arts III (?)
Level 19: Jedi Knight 5 (?), Vaapad
Level 20: Jedi 10, Triple Crit, +1 Int +1 Dex (1 new Trained skill)

Is cleave worthwhile for mook-clearing (if so should I get it earlier and move Running Attack down?)? Is Force Boon worth having or do you have plenty of Force Points at higher levels?

I'm struggling to see the point in many more Knight levels when you don't get bonus Feats, and the Talents available aren't necessarily as good, lightsaber forms aside.

Talya
2008-12-29, 12:39 PM
the Talents available aren't necessarily as good, lightsaber forms aside.


The lightsaber forms are everything!

In particular, Soresu, Juyo, Shii-Cho, Vaapad. Ataru if you're very dexterity-based instead of strength. (For my character Finesse/Ataru represent a 7 point attack/damage bonus difference at level 20).

The others are a bit lacklustre.

Would I prefer an extra feat over my 4th or 5th force technique? Absolutely (especially with the errata on Force Point Recovery), but the lightsaber forms are so purrrrty i can't help taking at least 7-9 levels of knight on any lightsaber combat monkey.

Kiero
2008-12-29, 01:01 PM
The lightsaber forms are everything!

In particular, Soresu, Juyo, Shii-Cho, Vaapad. Ataru if you're very dexterity-based instead of strength. (For my character Finesse/Ataru represent a 7 point attack/damage bonus difference at level 20).

The others are a bit lacklustre.

Would I prefer an extra feat over my 4th or 5th force technique? Absolutely (especially with the errata on Force Point Recovery), but the lightsaber forms are so purrrrty i can't help taking at least 7-9 levels of knight on any lightsaber combat monkey.

I don't think my character is a pure combat monkey, so I think I'm looking for more utility through other means. But I should probably get Cleave earlier on and shunt the additional Martial Arts Feats later to mop up when I can't think of what to get.

Between Cleave and Riposte, I've got some conditional bonus second attacks going on, without having to be static. Cleave works particularly well with an initial Battlestrike-Powerful Charge, when I'm likely to do a lot of damage anyway.

Is Running Attack (for multi-attacker-spoilage) an early concern? Someone could be a Melee Duellist by around 12th level, or even lower for a more focused opponent.

Triple Crit and Vaapad as you mentioned are possibles, but that would mean a "useless" level of Knight where I get a Force Secret; I don't rate them.

Talya
2008-12-29, 01:06 PM
I don't think my character is a pure combat monkey, so I think I'm looking for more utility through other means. But I should probably get Cleave earlier on and shunt the additional Martial Arts Feats later to mop up when I can't think of what to get.

Between Cleave and Riposte, I've got some conditional bonus second attacks going on, without having to be static. Cleave works particularly well with an initial Battlestrike-Powerful Charge, when I'm likely to do a lot of damage anyway.

Is Running Attack (for multi-attacker-spoilage) an early concern? Someone could be a Melee Duellist by around 12th level, or even lower for a more focused opponent.

Triple Crit and Vaapad as you mentioned are possibles, but that would mean a "useless" level of Knight where I get a Force Secret; I don't rate them.


Knights get Force Techniques, not secrets. The Techniques are more universally useful than secrets, which Jedi masters get. Now, Masters who become force-power wizards can do some neat things with secrets, but they all rely on force points. At high levels, with it taking so long in to gain a new level, you've gotta be frugal with those force points, so I'm not really fond of the secrets that much.

Kiero
2008-12-29, 01:16 PM
Knights get Force Techniques, not secrets. The Techniques are more universally useful than secrets, which Jedi masters get. Now, Masters who become force-power wizards can do some neat things with secrets, but they all rely on force points. At high levels, with it taking so long in to gain a new level, you've gotta be frugal with those force points, so I'm not really fond of the secrets that much.

For a character who doesn't really need much extra from his Force powers, what Techniques besides Recover Force Point (which post-errata you can only get once) do I need? Most of my chosen powers don't seem to have boosts to them.

Improved Rebuke, possibly. Improved Vital Transfer to be a better "heal-bot" when someone is stuck somewhere difficult and perhaps I'm too busy to get over to them? Language Absorption to make up for my atrocious Intelligence?

Talya
2008-12-29, 01:24 PM
I think Improved Move Light Object is probably the most overlooked, and useful of the techniques outside of the force point recovery. The ability to telekineticly manipulate objects without any substantial effort is incredibly useful. You're far more likely to use Move Light Object if you aren't sacrificing precious actions to do so.

Kiero
2008-12-29, 08:55 PM
In this new Talents-free-up build, how worthwhile is it considering Improved Armoured Defense again? I'm not sure Soldier levels fit the character, but it would be a strong point of differentiation from the other Jedi, and would delay both Jedi Knight and Skill Focus (UtF) by a level in her favour.

I'd slot Soldier in at 7th level, then perhaps switch Scout 4 for Soldier 2 at 8th. I'd also need to get IAD from my Jedi Knight Talents, which might mean hanging around in it longer and fewer Feats; or getting Juyo later. If I don't I won't really get much benefit from that diversion.

How good are the packages you can get via S&V? Our Noble/Scoundrel is a tech specialist who will be able to rig things up. Do those make the otherwise meagre benefits (+2 Fort, air supply, helmet package - all assuming it's a while before IAD) worthwhile?

Talya
2008-12-30, 12:00 AM
If you're making an armored jedi, you really have to start with a level of soldier at level 1. I'm dying to make one work, but it's so feat/talent intensive that I've never managed to do so.

Kiero
2008-12-30, 04:58 AM
If you're making an armored jedi, you really have to start with a level of soldier at level 1. I'm dying to make one work, but it's so feat/talent intensive that I've never managed to do so.

Not really; the best armours are light, and you only need a "spare" level and Talent to get Improved Armoured Defense. Dip a single level of Soldier (which doesn't soften BAB or hit points, just delays) and you get Armour Proficiency (light) and Armoured Defense. Then a single Knight Talent for Improved Armoured Defense and you're golden.

Light armour only has one upgrade slot, but unless you've already got a high Dex, reducing the max Dex bonus is a trivial trade-off. Most of them are somewhere between +3 and +5, so as good as free slots.

If I did, my progression from present would go:

Level 6: Jedi 3, Block [Jedi Talent], Force Training (Negate Energy, Rebuke, Vital Transfer) [6th level Character Feat]
Level 7: Soldier 1, Armour Proficiency (light) [Multiclass Feat], Armoured Defense [Soldier Talent]
Level 8: Scout 4 OR Soldier 2, Skill Focus (Use the Force) [Scout/Soldier Bonus Feat] +1 Con, +1 Cha [8th level Ability Boost]
Level 9: Jedi 4, Powerful Charge [Jedi Bonus Feat], Force Training (Surge, Battlestrike, Sever Force) [9th level Character Feat]
Level 10: Jedi Knight 1, Shii-Cho [Jedi Knight Talent]

OR

Level 6: Jedi 3, Block [Jedi Talent], Force Training (Negate Energy, Rebuke, Vital Transfer) [6th level Character Feat]
Level 7: Scout 4, Skill Focus (Use the Force) [Scout Bonus Feat]
Level 8: Jedi 4, Powerful Charge [Jedi Bonus Feat], +1 Con, +1 Cha [8th level Ability Boost]
Level 9: Soldier 1, Armour Proficiency (light) [Multiclass Feat], Armoured Defense [Soldier Talent], Force Training (Surge, Battlestrike, Sever Force) [9th level Character Feat]
Level 10: Jedi Knight 1, Shii-Cho [Jedi Knight Talent]

I'm leaning towards the first option, because I think the earlier I get the ability to wear armour the better (the Fort bonus being more useful earlier on), and I can take a second level of Soldier and not drop hit points.


Coll Arranda CL 10

Medium Human Jedi 4/scout 3/soldier 2/Jedi Knight 1
Init +12; Senses darkvision, low-light vision; Perception +14
Languages Basic

Defenses Ref 25 (flat-footed 22), Fort 26, Will 24; Block, Deflect, Evasion, Shii-Cho
hp 115; Threshold 26

Speed 8 squares
Melee lightsaber +13 (2d8+8) or
Melee lightsaber +13 (2d8+11) with both hands or
Melee lightsaber +17 (2d8+16) with Powerful Charge or
Melee unarmed +12 (1d6+8) or
Melee unarmed +16 (1d6+13) with Powerful Charge
Ranged by weapon +11
Base Atk +9; Grp +12
Atk Options Powerful Charge
Special Actions Shake It Off
Force Powers Known (Use The Force +16) battle strike (2), move object, negate energy, rebuke, sever Force, surge (2), vital transfer

Abilities Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 13
Special Qualities build lightsaber
Talents Armored Defense, Block, Deflect, Evasion, Long Stride, Shii-Cho
Feats Armor Proficiency (light), Force Sensitive, Force Training (3), Martial Arts I, Powerful Charge, Shake it Off, Skill Focus (Use the Force), Skill Training (2), Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers, pistols, rifles, simple)
Skills Acrobatics +12, Athletics +13, Endurance +12, Initiative +12, Perception +14, Stealth +12, Survival +12, Use the Force +16
Possessions lightsaber (self-built), stormtrooper armor (+6 armor, +2 equipment), basic datapad

Talya
2008-12-30, 09:46 AM
I suppose. I'm not sure two talents and a level dip in soldier all for +3 reflex defense and +2 fort defense is really all that great.

If I were going armored defense, I'd be really tempted to take heavy armor feat as well, take three talents (armored defense, improved armored defense, and i think "juggernaut" is the one that eliminates the mobility penalty), and get one of those 11 reflex defense heavy armor (modified to 12 reflex defense), and gain +6 reflex defense and +4 fort defense for an extra talent and feat.

Kiero
2008-12-30, 09:55 AM
Then you start going down the road of even greater investment. Medium armours mean I'd lose Long Stride, unless I got Juggernaught. And two more Feats to reach heavy armour prof.

This minor diversion I can live with, I just need to resolve to pick up IAD at some point. I don't really want become an armour specialist, just someone who can wear it without being nerfed. Plus the whole "they can't be a Jedi, Jedi don't wear armour" misdirection.

Most of the light armours look the coolest too, like Rebel SpecForces armour:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/cf/RebelSpecForce.JPG

Mando Knight
2008-12-30, 11:59 AM
So that's where my Luke Skywalker, Legacy of the Light Side mini got his armor...

If you go Soldier 3 and get Improved Armored Defense, make sure you have access to Stormtrooper-esque armor, and boost your Dex bonus to no more than +3 (unless you have access to a Tech Specialist/Superior Tech). Save your Knight levels for Lightsaber talents (Knights also get armor talents), and use Soldier 2 rather than Scout 2 for Skill Focus (UtF).

Kiero
2008-12-30, 12:34 PM
So that's where my Luke Skywalker, Legacy of the Light Side mini got his armor...

If you go Soldier 3 and get Improved Armored Defense, make sure you have access to Stormtrooper-esque armor, and boost your Dex bonus to no more than +3 (unless you have access to a Tech Specialist/Superior Tech). Save your Knight levels for Lightsaber talents (Knights also get armor talents), and use Soldier 2 rather than Scout 2 for Skill Focus (UtF).

Thing is once I've got Shii-Cho and Juyo, the only lightsaber Talent that appeals is Soresu to shore up my defenses. So using one for IAD isn't that big a deal. That said it is simpler to get just Soldier 3 later on for that Talent than getting another two levels of Jedi Knight.

Our group has a very rich Tech Specialist as one of the other PCs. My own character is now pretty wealthy, courtesy of a gem shipment they knocked off before he joined them. We're currently doing a number on an Imperial installation, so in a pinch I don't think it would be difficult to get some stormtrooper armour for our friend to work on.