Comparative Mythological Jerkiness Thread

[DomaDoma]

You know, just in case anyone wanted to continue the derailment of the ending-rewrite thread, but on rails this time.

As for me, the closest I can find to a decent, intelligent mythological hero is Theseus, which is saying something considering the whole Ariadne thing.

[Nevrmore]

Dionysus won a special place in my heart when he came to Theseus after he had suffered all of his trials, said "So I decided that I'm in love with your girl", trapped him on an island and erased his lover's memories of him. Then, presumably, he screwed her brains out.

[Revlid]

Oh? The way I always heard it told, Theseus abandoned his gal on the island, leaving before she awoke, in order to avoid having to marry a foreign wife (a perfectly Athenian sentiment). Then Dionysus stepped in and screwed her brains out.
And then the thing with the sail and the cliff and the dad, which rather makes me doubt the "intelligent" part.

In the tellings I've heard, Heracles has always been fairly moral. Apart from the god-induced fits of insanity, he seemed a pretty cool guy - choosing severity and glory over pleasure and easiness, and then trying to atone for a crime that technically wasn't his fault, even when his jerk-ass half-brother started adding tasks on the spot.

And (despite the ire a certain forum member holds for him) I've always liked Odysseus - nothing he does is any worse than what, say, James Bond does, and in terms of their style as heroes they're quite comparable.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Enkidu was an okay guy, for the most part. Gilgamesh less so.

[Nevrmore]

Oh? The way I always heard it told, Theseus abandoned his gal on the island, leaving before she awoke, in order to avoid having to marry a foreign wife (a perfectly Athenian sentiment). Then Dionysus stepped in and screwed her brains out.
There are several alternate versions, as I recall. I like the "Dionysus is a huge A-hole" one best.

[Zaphrasz]

Enkidu was the man. He was like Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet; he had to die since he kicked so much more ass than the title character.

[Oslecamo]

Enkidu was the man. He was like Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet; he had to die since he kicked so much more ass than the title character.

You know, the main characters also die on that play.

[ArlEammon]

Hm.. Surely Merlin should count. In some of the early stories, he bashes Kings right in court despite the threat of death just because they've done something stupid.

[chiasaur11]

Oh? The way I always heard it told, Theseus abandoned his gal on the island, leaving before she awoke, in order to avoid having to marry a foreign wife (a perfectly Athenian sentiment). Then Dionysus stepped in and screwed her brains out.
And then the thing with the sail and the cliff and the dad, which rather makes me doubt the "intelligent" part.

In the tellings I've heard, Heracles has always been fairly moral. Apart from the god-induced fits of insanity, he seemed a pretty cool guy - choosing severity and glory over pleasure and easiness, and then trying to atone for a crime that technically wasn't his fault, even when his jerk-ass half-brother started adding tasks on the spot.

And (despite the ire a certain forum member holds for him) I've always liked Odysseus - nothing he does is any worse than what, say, James Bond does, and in terms of their style as heroes they're quite comparable.

Yeah, I tend to agree with those picks.

Hercules also killed the Skrull gods, so he's got that going for him.

[T-O-E]

Heh. The Greek pantheon, never know what they're gonna do next.

[Ubiq]

In the tellings I've heard, Heracles has always been fairly moral. Apart from the god-induced fits of insanity, he seemed a pretty cool guy - choosing severity and glory over pleasure and easiness, and then trying to atone for a crime that technically wasn't his fault, even when his jerk-ass half-brother started adding tasks on the spot.

Don't forget the Linus incident; Heracles killed him because Linus criticized his lack of musical ability. I don't recall that being chalked up to a Hera inspired fit of madness. Greek heroes aren't necessarily good after all, just excessive.

Anyway, there's always Triptolemus, who didn't kill people but taught agriculture and spread knowledge throughout Greece.

[SurlySeraph]

Hector's very nice - he fights to protect his family and city, tells Paris off for being an idiot but doesn't hurt him, and never does anything egregious. As his reward, he gets brutally killed and his corpse is desecrated. :smallsigh: Stupid Achilles.

Aeneas is a pretty good guy. He gives up everything he could have done with his life to obey the will of the gods, and does the right thing even when he has to give up what he loves. His behavior towards Dido does seem reprehensible, until you realize that he wanted to stay with her and Mercury came down in person and ordered him to leave her. Aeneas tried to leave in the way that would hurt her the least, and wasn't entirely successful in that. Other than that, he's a paragon.

[Zaphrasz]

You know, the main characters also die on that play.Alright, he had to die sooner. Bah, I think you know what I meant.

[Yulian]

Enkidu was an okay guy, for the most part. Gilgamesh less so.

I think Gilagamesh makes up for it with this, one of the most moving eulogies ever written in human history...and written so early, too. For best-loved Enkidu.

2
"I'll cry now, citizens of Uruk, and you
will finally hear what no one else
has ever had the nerve to say in sorrow.
I was family and friend to Enkidu and I shall
fill the woodlands where we stalked with loud, sad sobs today.
I cry now, Enkidu, like some crazed woman. I howl.
I screech for you because you were the ax upon my belt
and the bow in my weak hand; the sword within my sheath,
the shield that covered me in battle; my happiest robe,
the finest clothes I ever wore,
the ones that made me look best in the eyes of the world.
That is what you were; that is what you'll always be"
What devil came to take you off from me?
Brother, you chased down the strongest mule,
the swiftest horse on mountains high,
the quickest panthers in the flatlands.
And they in turn will weep for you.
Birds in the air cry aloud.
Fish in the lake gather together near the shore.
What else heeds this sorrow?
The leaves of the trees and the paths you loved
in the forest grow dark.
Night itself murmurs and so too does the day.
All the eyes of the city that once saw your kind face begin to weep.
Why? Because you were my brother and you died.
When we met and fought and loved,
we went up on mountains high to where we dared to capture
god's own strength in one great beast and then to cut its throat,
thus humbling Humbaba, green god of woodlands steep.
Now there is a sleep-like spell on you, and you
are dark as well as deaf."
Enkidu can move no more.
Enkidu can lift his head no more.
"Now there is a sound throughout the land
that can mean only one thing.
I hear the voice of grief and I know that you have been taken
somewhere by death.
Weep. Let the roads we walked together flood themselves
with tears.
Let the beasts we hunted cry out for this:
the lion and the leopard, the tiger and the panther.
Let their strength be put into their tears.
Let the cloud-like mountain where you killed
the guardian of woodland treasures
place grief upon its sky-blue top.
Let the river which soothed our feet overflow its banks
as tears do that swell and rush across my dusty cheeks.
Let the clouds and stars race swiftly with you into death.
Let the rain that makes us dream
tell the story of your life tonight.
Who mourns for you now, Brother?
Everyone who knew you does.
The harvesters and the farmers who used to bring you grain
are standing alone in their fields.
The servants who worked in your house
today whispered your name in empty rooms.
The lover who kissed every part of you
touches her chilled lips with scented fingers.
The women of the palace sit
and stare at the queen of the city.
She sobs and sobs and sobs.
The men with whom you played so bold
speak fondly of your name.
Thus they deal with this misfortune.
But what do I do? I only know that a cruel fate robbed me
of my dearest friend too soon.
What state of being holds you now? Are you lost forever?
Do you hear my song?"
"I placed my hand upon your quiet heart."
One brother covered the set face of another
with a bride-white veil.
"I flew above you then as if I were an eagle."
Then, like some great cat whose darling young have sadly died,
Gilgamesh slides back and forth fixed mindlessly on grief.
He commands many men to erect statues of honor, saying:
"Make his chest a noble blue and on his honored body place a jewel
as will allow all viewers then to see how great he was,
how great he'll always be."
Next day, Gilgamesh rose from a restless sleep.
3
Then Gilgamesh continued with his bird-like words:
"On a pedestal I will honor your corpse
by setting you
above all earthly princes who will celebrate you
when people from all distant lands
both rich and poor in spirit
acclaim your memory.
And when you are gone,
never again to wear good clothes or care for food,
I'll still remember how you dressed and how you ate.
" When day did break again next morn,
Gilgamesh stripped off the lion's cloak and
rose to say this prayer:
"Your funeral is a precious
gesture I made to hide my own guilt."
Goodbye, dear brother

The Epic of Gilgamesh, Tablet 8, Columns 2 and 3.

I dare you to read that and not mist up at least a little.

- Yulian

[T-O-E]

<snip>

That was so beautiful. I have no idea who these people are but I'm deeply moved.

[Dervag]

Gilgamesh, the speaker, was a legendary king of Babylon from the Epic of Gilgamesh. He had divine ancestry (like the more powerful heroes of Greek mythology).

Enkidu was his wild-man opposite number. The two heroes became fast friends, and went on some really great adventures together. Enkidu was killed by a sickness that the gods cursed him with, because he had helped Gilgamesh fight the Bull of Heaven (which had been sicced on him by a goddess Gilgamesh rejected).

[Serpentine]

Oh? The way I always heard it told, Theseus abandoned his gal on the island, leaving before she awoke, in order to avoid having to marry a foreign wife (a perfectly Athenian sentiment). Then Dionysus stepped in and screwed her brains out.I always like Dionysus for this version...

In the tellings I've heard, Heracles has always been fairly moral. Apart from the god-induced fits of insanity, he seemed a pretty cool guy - choosing severity and glory over pleasure and easiness, and then trying to atone for a crime that technically wasn't his fault, even when his jerk-ass half-brother started adding tasks on the spot.He did rape an awful lot of women (and, for that matter, boys too I think).
I too have a soft spot for Odysseus, and even Jason. Decent people, though... I think Telamachus, Odysseus' son, was pretty alright. Ajax was pretty damn hardcore, but not particularly nice. Unfortunately, I obviously really need to scratch up on my international mythology... Quetzalcoatl was a pretty good fellow by all accounts.

[Jayngfet]

Heh, Quetzoalcotyl, he was always one of my favorite gods, for no reason other than being a snake that is also a plane.

[Serpentine]

...a plane? :smallconfused: Quetzalcouatl's a feathered serpent, if that's what you mean...

[ArlEammon]

He can fly is what I think he means.

[Serpentine]

But...
he...
That still doesn't make any sense.

[Rutskarn]

Roll with it.

My favorite mythological figure is Loki...because he figured out the myth-figures-are-bastards trend and just plain ran with it. Gotta respect that.

[Lyesmith]

Roll with it.

My favorite mythological figure is Loki...because he figured out the myth-figures-are-bastards trend and just plain ran with it. Gotta respect that.

You, sir, took the words right out of my mouth.
Though he did have his advantages, he got the gods thier best stuff, after all.

[Jayngfet]

Hey, unless you see an actual half god airplane I've got to work with this.

Of course that means that dragons...

[Lyesmith]

Hey, unless you see an actual half god airplane I've got to work with this.

Of course that means that dragons...

Hang on...

If humans are closest to the Gods, is it because we're divinely inspired with wisdom and so on? Or is it because we'll do anything that moves?

[Setra]

Hang on...

If humans are closest to the Gods, is it because we're divinely inspired with wisdom and so on? Or is it because we'll do anything that moves?

Looking at the Greek Pantheon? The latter.

[ghost_warlock]

Roll with it.

My favorite mythological figure is Loki...because he figured out the myth-figures-are-bastards trend and just plain ran with it. Gotta respect that.

*snicker* Kudos to that.


DON JOHN

I had rather be a canker in a hedge than a rose in
his grace, and it better fits my blood to be
disdained of all than to fashion a carriage to rob
love from any: in this, though I cannot be said to
be a flattering honest man, it must not be denied
but I am a plain-dealing villain. I am trusted with
a muzzle and enfranchised with a clog; therefore I
have decreed not to sing in my cage. If I had my
mouth, I would bite; if I had my liberty, I would do
my liking: in the meantime let me be that I am and
seek not to alter me.

[Closet_Skeleton]

in order to avoid having to marry a foreign wife (a perfectly Athenian sentiment).

But Theseus went on to marry her sister so that would make no sense.

[T-O-E]

Gilgamesh, the speaker, was a legendary king of Babylon from the Epic of Gilgamesh. He had divine ancestry (like the more powerful heroes of Greek mythology).

Enkidu was his wild-man opposite number. The two heroes became fast friends, and went on some really great adventures together. Enkidu was killed by a sickness that the gods cursed him with, because he had helped Gilgamesh fight the Bull of Heaven (which had been sicced on him by a goddess Gilgamesh rejected).

Thanks. Your exposition makes the poem all the more beautiful.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah. You know, I think the Mesopotamian gods may have been even bigger jerkasses than the Greek ones.

[Lyesmith]

Heh. The Greek pantheon, never know what they're gonna do next.

Yo momma!
And they're gonna woo her in the form of a bull!

[Aptera]

Every single Aztec god, except Quetzalcoatl, and maybe even him by association. Quite honestly saying, "Give us Liters and liters of Blood or the sun dies, and even if you do that might not be enough, so make sure to check around every 52 years for the apocolypse" or, "flay a young girl to make sure the crops grow,"is just a fairly jerky thing to say. That might be an understatement.

[Lyesmith]

I'm pretty sure Quetzacouatl was the one asking for lots of blood. And, y'know, the freshly ripped out hearts of hundreds each day.

[Tengu_temp]

You're wrong. Quetzacouatl was the one and only Aztec god who didn't demand human sacrifice.

[T-O-E]

I'm the sure the pantheons of old were having a contest to see how jerky they could be and yet still have worshippers.

[Rutskarn]

I'm the sure the pantheons of old were having a contest to see how jerky they could be and yet still have worshippers.

Their mistake was assuming that there was an upper limit.

[Lyesmith]

You're wrong. Quetzacouatl was the one and only Aztec god who didn't demand human sacrifice.

Wait, What?

...Seriously?
Everythin in that book was a lie!
A lie!
I shall demand my money back. Thank you for the information!

[chiasaur11]

Roll with it.

My favorite mythological figure is Loki...because he figured out the myth-figures-are-bastards trend and just plain ran with it. Gotta respect that.

Of course, somebody made him, quite literally, their mare, so that's a point against. Sure he got an apocolyptian monster out of it, but...

[Tengu_temp]

Wait, What?

...Seriously?
Everythin in that book was a lie!
A lie!
I shall demand my money back. Thank you for the information!

What book told you these lies, if I may ask?

[Lyesmith]

What book told you these lies, if I may ask?

A Horrible Histories, I think. Might have been another, though.

[Oslecamo]

I'm the sure the pantheons of old were having a contest to see how jerky they could be and yet still have worshippers.

You know, one could argue that the more popular gods nowaday are the most jerky of all, since they don't share power, and they demand you to live ascetic lifes of work while sacrificing most of the pleasures of life. When you aren't killing the servants of the other gods of course. Wait, there aren't other gods, just demons to be burned down.

Wait, capitalism still wasn't declared a religion, right? Damn.

[Setra]

I read some sort of storybook involving the norse gods.. I don't recall much of it..

I recall liking Thor and Odin though.

Wish I could find it again.

Edit: Does Xena count? *flees from the tomatoes*

[bosssmiley]

I'm the sure the pantheons of old were having a contest to see how jerky they could be and yet still have worshippers.

Some people thought "Populus" was a god game. It was a training regime. :smallwink:

edit: Odin. Now there's a right SoB. He'll con you out of fair payment. He'll sleep with your missus. He'll kill you just to recruit you into the Einheriar. And he'll send Thor to kill you if you work out his scams.

I'm betting Utgard-Loki was just Odin in another one of his costumes. :smallannoyed:

[orcmonk89]

I must say I do think Dionysus is genious. Especially when the Athenians refused to worship him when Pegasos brought a wooden phallus to Athens, and he gave them all some strange genetal-focused desease. Oh yes, and the amount of screwing he got around to doing. Impressive stuff.

[Jayngfet]

Horible histories isn't good for much more than general facts in my opinion.

And I wonder about the egyptian gods. Ignoring that bit with the blood drinking lion goddess and that thing with the salad.

[Weezer]

Yo momma!
And they're gonna woo her in the form of a bull!

or as a shower of gold coins.:smallconfused:
I dont want to know

[SurlySeraph]

You know, one could argue that the more popular gods nowaday are the most jerky of all, since they don't share power, and they demand you to live ascetic lifes of work while sacrificing most of the pleasures of life. When you aren't killing the servants of the other gods of course. Wait, there aren't other gods, just demons to be burned down.

Wait, capitalism still wasn't declared a religion, right? Damn.

"Be my slave and be eventually rewarded!" is less jerky than "I'm going to randomly kill you and your afterlife will suck!" in my book.

[Rutskarn]

So, wait. Does Scheherazade technically count as a mythological figure?

Cos if so, then she was actually pretty valiant.

Actually, I guess she's really more of a literary figure.

[Philistine]

Or how about King Arthur? There's one particularly troubling bit early on in Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur; I had to go back and re-read to convince myself that I'd read it correctly. It goes something like this:

The great hero, King Arthur, is out riding in the woods one fine day - hunting, probably - when he comes across a woman he doesn't recognize traveling through the area. So he takes time out of his busy schedule to rape her, and then rides away. Very heroic, eh? But wait, there's more! Because it turns out that Arthur's mother had had another child sometime after Arthur had grown up and left home to go be heroic and kingly - and the woman Arthur raped in the woods turned out to be none other than his own half-sister, Morgause. So at this point in the story he's chalked up incest as well as rape, and still isn't done.

Nine months later Morgause gives birth to a son, and names him Mordred. About that same time, Merlin comes to Arthur with a problem: all signs point to a baby born on a certain day, an incestuously-spawned bastard, as being the one who will someday destroy Arthur's kingdom. So they round up all the babies born on that day, and put them out to sea on a leaky boat. The boat promptly sinks, just as planned, and almost all the children aboard are killed. (The sole survivor is Mordred, Arthur's own incestuously-spawned bastard, who does indeed grow up to usurp Arthur's throne, plunge the realm into civil war, and deal Arthur hmself a mortal wound.)

Rape, incest, and the mass murder of infants... Truly, Arthur is a hero for the ages.

[Jayngfet]

Hehe, I remember reading that in like third grade, it was my first mythological superdickery.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Let's be fair, Malory was just ripping off several people from Greek Mythology there. Then, you have T. H. White's not-really-family-friendly rewrite, wherein Morgause seduces the young, recently-crowned Arthur, pretty much for the lulz. Of course, White wasn't trying all that hard to be faithful to earlier Arthur legends...which Malory had already chopped up beyond recognition.

Arthurian myth is a mass of retcons and adaptation decay even between the two most definitive versions, let alone earlier works.

[Satyr]

I actually like most more traditional tales, especially because they do not waste thaughts on this whole good/evil crap.
I like the Illiad because it describes the heroes as what they are - soldiers and warlords who fight to win and most completely lack the romanitc white-wash of more 'moral' tales. Homer doesn't try to romanticise his characters, he let them behave more or less realistically for the setting it plays in.

The greek gods life a bit carefree and and, let's say, more corporeal. Which isn't necessarily bad. They have passions (other than wrath) and love chosen people and are deeply sorrow when one of her favorites die.

It contains a certain arrogance to come to the idea to evaluate the moral standards of older narratives and fiction based on modern standards.

[Jayngfet]

But they still have to worry about things like not getting soldiers murdered because you wanted to see what was in the cave.

And arthur had a little thing called a code, that thing knights had, you know, the knightly virtues, generosity, mercy, justice, all that.

You have to remember that people need a reason not to root for the villan. Something that makes you know that the protagonist isn't just some hired gun or brain dead ruler.

I honestly don't know why all these ancient gods were worshipped, with all the young girls being drowned and flayed alive and the constant sacrifice of livestock and manpower and the horrible man eating monsters they keep spawning.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Ancient religion is not about a personal God who is your buddy and loves you. That was something of an innovation around the time of Christ. In Ancient pantheons, what you get is Gods who represent forces of nature or elements, and like the elements they're capricious, powerful and hold humanity at their mercy. There's nothing you, a mere human, can do about what your fate is--you just have to worship along with everyone else and hope the gods are pleased, if they take notice at all. That fatalistic attitude characterizes all the characters in the Oddessy, who know nothing in death but a bleak eternity in Hades awaits them. That's why guys like Agamemnon and Achilles are big on seizing glory in the here and now.

[Jayngfet]

Good point, but I still have to wonder about Arthur.

[Piedmon_Sama]

"Flattery is wasted on a peasant woman. Praise her and rape her, and have done with it." That is (more or less) how one line goes from a 12th C. manual on Knightly behavior. Basically, the aristocracy in feudal Europe viewed the commoners as more-or-less subhuman, like animals. They needed a firm hand to guide them, or they'd fall rapidly into beastial behavior. Moreover, a woman of the peasantry didn't really mind getting taken on the spot by a dashing knight. I mean, they're barely past the mental stage of children, right? So it's not nearly as awful, as, say, raping a gentlewoman, right?

Well, that was what a lot of the nobility thought, anyway.

[Jayngfet]

Id read somewhere that opinions on pesants varied quite a bit in various parts of europe. But I'd imagine that would be the gist of it in most places. I can see it in france and russia in particular.

[Piedmon_Sama]

William the Conqueror himself was the son of Duke RolloRobert of Normandy and a tanner's daughter whom Rollo espied one morning from the tower of his castle-mound, doing whatever it is peasants do on the loose. The courtship was brief, and the product (William) openly referred to himself was William the Bastard before taking up the epithet Conqueror.

He still didn't take no guff 'bout his momma, though. Even bad men love their mommas.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm of the opinion that the primary reason William conquered England was so he could replace "the Bastard" with something a little more impressive.

[Jayngfet]

, doing whatever it is peasants do on the loose.



I'm resisting the urge to make a horrible and painful joke right now. Nah, not worth the trouble I'd get in.

So then, how about the egyptian gods, just where to they fit into the equation? If memory serves Ra almost killed all of humanity with a murderous lion goddes.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I'm guessing he had a lot of repressed frustration to take out on his sons, William Rufus ("Red-Face") and Robert Curthose ("Short Stockings") and Henry l'douchebag ("the Douchebag")*.


*I actually don't know what Henry's epithet was but I think tormenting Robert as a child, probably murdering William and then screwing Robert out of the inheritance has earned him this one.

[kpenguin]

"Flattery is wasted on a peasant woman. Praise her and rape her, and have done with it." That is (more or less) how one line goes from a 12th C. manual on Knightly behavior. Basically, the aristocracy in feudal Europe viewed the commoners as more-or-less subhuman, like animals. They needed a firm hand to guide them, or they'd fall rapidly into beastial behavior. Moreover, a woman of the peasantry didn't really mind getting taken on the spot by a dashing knight. I mean, they're barely past the mental stage of children, right? So it's not nearly as awful, as, say, raping a gentlewoman, right?

Well, that was what a lot of the nobility thought, anyway.

I understand the context of this statement, but I got a little giggle out of it anyway.

[Yulian]

That was so beautiful. I have no idea who these people are but I'm deeply moved.

The Epic of Gilgamesh (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/)

Go. Read it. It's not incredibly long. It is the oldest written story known and, incredibly, still one of the best.

- Yulian

[Oslecamo]

Go. Read it. It's not incredibly long. It is the oldest written story known and, incredibly, still one of the best.

- Yulian

One can then only wonder why so few people know it.

Hmm perhaps people just like jerky storie, if popular TV programs are any sign.

[Aptera]

Coyote/Raven/Fox/Anansi what have you, the various tricksters of the world. I mean really these guys are the ones who can be good, but usually just mess with you.

[Rutskarn]

One can then only wonder why so few people know it.

Hmm perhaps people just like jerky storie, if popular TV programs are any sign.

I dunno. The Epic of Gilgamesh is, at the very least, something you're taught about a half-dozen times in your life. I guess it just depends on whether you remember that or some other minor detail.

I'd rather know about The Epic of Gilgamesh than gaussian elimination any day.

[Oslecamo]

I dunno. The Epic of Gilgamesh is, at the very least, something you're taught about a half-dozen times in your life. I guess it just depends on whether you remember that or some other minor detail.

I'd rather know about The Epic of Gilgamesh than gaussian elimination any day.

Then we grew up in very diferent education systems, because the only places I had heard about the name Gilgamesh before the movie was in some games, but I have known for gaussian elimination for a looong time, and I consider it frankly more usefull. Not to mention more entertaining.

[Yulian]

One can then only wonder why so few people know it.

Hmm perhaps people just like jerky storie, if popular TV programs are any sign.

I can't believe I forgot!

Most geeks have heard some of this.

Darmok (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGomS2fS3yA)

Patrick Stewart's greatly simplified rendition is still moving. A great testament to one of humanity's greatest stories.

Jayngfet, that would be Sekhmet, an aspect of Hathor, or possibly Bast. Let's see...of the Heliopolitans, I always found Anubis to be very sympathetic towards humanity. Then again, I might be biased, I was a mortician for years and received a necklace with an image of Anubis on it as a mortuary college graduation gift.

This is, I think, my favourite image of him:
http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Doc5/anubis_files/anubis4.jpg

It shows such an attitude of care to it. That is Osirus's sarcophagus, by the way. But he's always depicted attending to or protecting tombs (the fully doglike image of him sitting atop a tomb, for instance) and don't forget, actual Egyptian embalmers wore an Anubis costume during parts of the ceremony. He also weighed your heart in the classic test.

I always took my responsibilities very seriously. Additionally, due to his association with lost souls, he was the patron god of orphans, which I also was. I guess that's one reason I associate so strongly with him.
Likely I'll be doing an Anubis costume this year for Halloween, multi-material costume, thermoplastic base for the articulated mask. I've been doing haunted attraction work for 12 years now, so it should be very spectacular.

I can't find a single mythological reference to Anubis being anything but devoted, loyal, clever, and caring. He's the guy you want to guide you at the end. He was even in an episode of GI Joe! "The Gods Below", Duke called him "dogface", then quickly added "Uh, Army talk. Term of endearment.".

Episode summary, with pics: The Gods Below (http://joeguide.com/summaries/the_gods_below/part3.shtml)

Here he is: http://joeguide.com/summaries/the_gods_below/images/gb154.jpg

Sekhmet pics on that page, too.

- Yulian

[Telonius]

My prize for mythological jerkiness goes to: Eris. She basically instigated the entire Trojan War because she wasn't invited to a party.

EDIT: As far as Gilgamesh goes, I think it's a lot like Le Morte d'Arthur or Beowulf - lots of people know about it, but few people have read the whole thing (unless required to do so for class).

[Dacia Brabant]

My prize for mythological jerkiness goes to: Eris. She basically instigated the entire Trojan War because she wasn't invited to a party.

Well Eris does mean Strife after all, usually not a good thing to have at parties.


And maybe it's just me, but I have a feeling that a lot of the bad behavior on the part of mythological heroes a lot of the time is meant to teach how not to behave--at least with the tragic heroes.

[Jayngfet]

You know, I think I've found out why I keep dwelling on this, no one ever learns anything. Zeus never thinks to keep his pants on, no matter how many people die thanks to the latest cosmic horror unleashed from his genetals, and hera never thinks to just kill them, or do anything about it, it's always the horrible monster route, which never stops Zeus, and she never stops being surprised at his latest fling and never thinks of another solution. At this point I'm wondering how the Greeks and Romans were able to think of their gods as all powerful and wise.

[Piedmon_Sama]

They didn't think the Olympians were all-powerful and all-knowing like the Abrahamic God we generally think of. Immortal, yes, but still bound by fate (a quasi-personified force in the Greek cosmos) just like mankind.

[Jayngfet]

But that doesn't mean that they can't learn from their mistakes, and one should learn a lot after thousands of years.

[Piedmon_Sama]

This was an open point of philosophical contention for the Greeks. Some contended that the gods were essentially personified forces of nature. Thus, they didn't "grow" or "mature" the way a human being does. Others, in the classical period, contended the gods weren't real.

[Jayngfet]

You can't really personify a static creature, since part of what makes a person a viable creature is that it learns from mistakes. If no one learned anything we'd be dead.

[kopout]

Loki is my favorite. i consider the part where he went from trickster to down right EVIL to be character derailment.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You can't really personify a static creature, since part of what makes a person a viable creature is that it learns from mistakes. If no one learned anything we'd be dead.Well, myths weren't really a connected, continuous narrative. They're a bunch of short (or long) stories with a common theme and character archetypes, who were eventually all identified with the same characters. Myths were all sort of created in parallel to each other by an oral tradition rather than written out neatly and sequentially in books like you see them today. That's why you don't really have any character arcs or changes outside of an individual story.

[Jayngfet]

Yes but considering the sheer length of the greek and roman empires put together(since their gods are often interchangeable), one would expect some stories to be commonplace and built off of.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Not really. See, 98% of mythology is either "this is why X thing in nature exists" or a more colorful version of actual history. There's not really a focus on character development between stories; the gods (and anyone else who recurs between stories) are more like stock characters than anything.

[xanaphia]

Not really. See, 98% of mythology is either "this is why X thing in nature exists" or a more colorful version of actual history. There's not really a focus on character development between stories; the gods (and anyone else who recurs between stories) are more like stock characters than anything.

The story of Kvasir in Norse Mythology. The gods need someone to judge their disputes, so they spit into a pot and the spit comes to life, and is named Kvasir. He becomes a poet, until some dwarves kill him to make soup that makes you a good poet. But the dwarves had separately murdered some random giants for being annoying house-guests, so their son comes ans steals the soup. And so on. That's not "why X thing in nature exists" or a more colourful version of history. It's just plain retarded.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Some myths, like the one where Loki and Thor infiltrate a giant's house with Thor disguised as a bride, are just meant to be funny stories told aloud.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Let's see...
Would that be Dalam Tashal, a goddess who refused to acknowledge other deities even though she herself was one?
Or maybe the Destroyer, who blew things apart in gory awesomeness because.

Oh wait, mythological doesn't include LoC. Nevermind....

[Avilan the Grey]

Id read somewhere that opinions on pesants varied quite a bit in various parts of europe. But I'd imagine that would be the gist of it in most places. I can see it in france and russia in particular.

Oh yes. That behaviour would not have been very fruitful in Sweden. (Most kings in Sweden ruled by support of the Peasant class against the Nobles and the Church, and almost all Peasants in Sweden were independent land owners).

[Avilan the Grey]

Some myths, like the one where Loki and Thor infiltrate a giant's house with Thor disguised as a bride, are just meant to be funny stories told aloud.

There seem to be a huge difference in how Loki was viewed in the serious material compared to the everyday myths, but that happens again later after we became Christians.*
(It's hard to know exactly, since Norse culture was an oral culture and it was not until after the Vikings had put down their swords for good that people started writing the stories down).
Loki in the serious mythology was much more than just a trickster, he was the one that actively searched to destroy the world. It went as far as him being chained "forever" underground with adders dropping poison constantly in his eyes (and causing earthquakes when the pain from the poison made his body spasm. The fact that this myth explains earthquakes is generally taken as a sign of this story is so old it's before the Aesir mythology reached Scandinavia (It is thought the Aesir religion started somwhere in Turkey 500-1000 years before it reached Scandinavia)).
In the more lighthearted, everyday stories Loki was a combination of a Buttmonkey and a Trickster.

*A lot of the stories from the Aesir myths as well as imported classical myths were just re-told as stories between either Jesus and Satan or a priest and Satan (instead of between Tor and Loki).
Examples like the priest who tricks Satan into being the fourth wheel on his wagon (after the original wheel breaks) or the priest who tricks him into not only building a church with his own hands, but paying for it as well...

[Jayngfet]

Of course the two roles needn't be separate, If I was a butt monkey with all those powers I wouldn't take crap treatment lying down. I've heard some texts reference his bad treatment being the cause for his genocidal nature.

[KnightDisciple]

I'll add one: Moloch/Ba'al/etc.
Seriously man. Making people throw their live kids into fires? Uncool.

[Jayngfet]

For that matter I'll throw in some chinese dragons, who go in the opposite direction and want a little girl a year drowned in a river so they won't drown everyone else.

[Dervag]

The story of Kvasir in Norse Mythology. The gods need someone to judge their disputes, so they spit into a pot and the spit comes to life, and is named Kvasir. He becomes a poet, until some dwarves kill him to make soup that makes you a good poet. But the dwarves had separately murdered some random giants for being annoying house-guests, so their son comes ans steals the soup. And so on. That's not "why X thing in nature exists" or a more colourful version of history. It's just plain retarded.Doesn't mean the Vikings didn't like it.

I suspect that one came about when some bard decided to whip up a tale of revenge, magic artifacts, stuff like that, because he needed something to please the local jarls.

[Arioch]

I'll add one: Moloch/Ba'al/etc.
Seriously man. Making people throw their live kids into fires? Uncool.

Lies!

The whole Carthagian Mass Infanticide thing was most likely made up by the Romans, who were enemies of the Carthagians.

And in any case, Ba'al was an agricultural God, mostly. He and his worshippers were subjected to a mass smear campaign by the Jews and early Christians. Hence the corruption of "Ba'al Zebul" (the lord on high) to "Beelzebub" (lord of the flies).

[Serpentine]

I'm pretty sure Quetzacouatl was the one asking for lots of blood. And, y'know, the freshly ripped out hearts of hundreds each day.When the Spaniards turned up in South America, Quetzalcouatl (and similar) was sort of worshipped in absentia by various peoples. The Aztecs were actively worshipping Huitzilopochtli, a god of sun and war. It was he who demanded human sacrifices, not Quetzalcouatl.
Just sayin' :smallwink:

While Loki did to some pretty nasty stuff - poor Baldur :smallfrown: - he wasn't actually considered an evil force to be overwhelmed (such as, for example, Satan or somesuch). He was actually a great help to the rest of the gods on occasion. For example, he was the one who made sure that they wouldn't have to pay the giant to finish their wall.
...on the other hand, he did that by turning into a mare and seducing the giant's horse. And then he got pregnant.

You know who was an idiot? Samson.
"Tell me the secret of your strength!"
"No."
"Please?"
"Oh, alright then. You get rid of it like this:"
*does that*
"You lied to me :smallfrown: Now tell me the real secret!"
"No."
"Please?"
"You did it last time!"
"I'll be your friend."
"Oh, alright then. You get rid of it like this:"
*does that*
"You lied to me :smallfrown: Now tell me the real secret!"
"No."
"Please?"
"You did it last time!"
"I'll be your friend."
"You did it the time before, too!"
"Don't you love me? :smallfrown:"
"Oh, alright then. You get rid of it like this:"
*does that*
"Ha ha, you're weak now!"
"Wow, I totally wasn't expecting that!"

[Avilan the Grey]

Of course the two roles needn't be separate, If I was a butt monkey with all those powers I wouldn't take crap treatment lying down. I've heard some texts reference his bad treatment being the cause for his genocidal nature.

True. I think I remember reading that part of it was because Loki's mother was a Giant (racism? :smalltongue:) that caused him to be harrased to begin with.

Seriously though I think it is a hen and egg question really.

The only one of the later myths where Loki is really evil is when he (on purpose) causes the death of Baldur (who according to many scholars is supposed to be a "Vikingafied" version of Christ, he was never mentioned in the older myths).

[Avilan the Grey]

I'll add one: Moloch/Ba'al/etc.
Seriously man. Making people throw their live kids into fires? Uncool.

Just FYI: AFAIK the name Bhaltasar (in it's various spellings) means "Worshipper of Ba'al).

[Telonius]

I'm still trying to think of anyone in the Greek/Roman pantheon that wasn't portrayed as being a jerk at some point or other. Hestia is the only one I'm coming up with. Mainly because she basically said, "Screw this, you Olympians are crazy, I'm going to watch my fire over here now."

[Dacia Brabant]

True. I think I remember reading that part of it was because Loki's mother was a Giant (racism? :smalltongue:) that caused him to be harrased to begin with.

Seriously though I think it is a hen and egg question really.

The only one of the later myths where Loki is really evil is when he (on purpose) causes the death of Baldur (who according to many scholars is supposed to be a "Vikingafied" version of Christ, he was never mentioned in the older myths).

Could you cite your sources for the older myths please? It's been my understanding that the Völuspá is the oldest extant record of Old Norse myths, and it makes reference to the murder of Baldr through Loki's deceit and how this leads to Ragnarök.

I know there are the runestones that have mythological significance and are the true oldest sources we have, but by their nature these are subject to much interpretation and debate so it's hard to say for sure what was really believed by people in the Viking Age and before.



Lies!

The whole Carthagian Mass Infanticide thing was most likely made up by the Romans, who were enemies of the Carthagians.

And in any case, Ba'al was an agricultural God, mostly. He and his worshippers were subjected to a mass smear campaign by the Jews and early Christians. Hence the corruption of "Ba'al Zebul" (the lord on high) to "Beelzebub" (lord of the flies).

So how do you explain the archeological discoveries of mass graves filled with both burned animals and human children at Carthaginian religious sites, whose use dates back hundreds of years before the Punic Wars?

[KnightDisciple]

Lies!

The whole Carthagian Mass Infanticide thing was most likely made up by the Romans, who were enemies of the Carthagians.

And in any case, Ba'al was an agricultural god, mostly. He and his worshippers were subjected to a mass smear campaign by the Jews and early Christians. Hence the corruption of "Ba'al Zebul" (the lord on high) to "Beelzebub" (lord of the flies).

:smallconfused:
Um, I meant the old Canaanite deity. Well, Canaanite/Old Arabia/whatever. Carthage has nothing to do with it.
Ba'al was also associated with Ashera, among others. Plus, it's a smear campaign...nope, I'm not gonna finish that, because I'll get in trouble. :smalltongue:
But I never meant Carthage. I meant the area around Israel (old Israel). Where, yeah, they burned babies. Alive.

[DomaDoma]

Hestia is the only one I'm coming up with. Mainly because she basically said, "Screw this, you Olympians are crazy, I'm going to watch my fire over here now."

(As an aside, I totally freaked out on my first reread of OotS when "Vestal Virgins" were mentioned, because of the whole Greco-Roman connection. Yes, laugh.)

How about the Egyptian pantheon? I don't recall hearing any Thoth legends - always a good sign - but on the other hand, I have it on good authority that the Isis-worshippers were the most bloodthirsty of the lot. That bodes ill. I'm almost certain Osiris is a decent bloke, though. Could someone without serious gaps in their schooling help me out here?

[Avilan the Grey]

Could you cite your sources for the older myths please? It's been my understanding that the Völuspá is the oldest extant record of Old Norse myths, and it makes reference to the murder of Baldr through Loki's deceit and how this leads to Ragnarök.

I know there are the runestones that have mythological significance and are the true oldest sources we have, but by their nature these are subject to much interpretation and debate so it's hard to say for sure what was really believed by people in the Viking Age and before.

I don't have any other sources but as far as I understand it, just like with the bible, different stories within the Edda is of different age.
It seems though as if you are correct when regarding this; it seems that Baldur / Baldir / Balder / Baldr was part of the oldest myths, but that it is his looks that became more Christ-like later.

[pendell]

Is it just me or do a lot of these myths read like stuff we'd read in DC or Marvel
comics? The 'gods' in these stories seem more like superheroes -- or supervillains --
than like the guardians of justice or morality that the western religious tradition believes in.

The gods -- in the Greek stories anyway -- are neither good nor bad, simply larger than life.
And people seem to 'worship' them for the same reason the kids in the house flatter an
abusive father -- to keep him from beating them up or killing them between the time he gets home and starts drinking but before he passes out in a pool of his own vomit.

For that matter, I wonder if the original myths that we're looking at weren't just a form of early comic book -- not meant to be *real* necessarily, but simply characters in a story?
Certainly sounds like the sort of thing Elan -- who is in the process of inventing his own
pantheon -- would do.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey Paladin]

I'm pretty sure Gilgamesh was a Sumerian king.

Incidentally, the Sumerian mythology is also the source of Piercing the Heaven (The twin water deities attempting to reclaim the world and pull it back into the Watery abyss - the chaos that gave birth to them and thus the land-gods), making it Older then the Bible.

[Serpentine]

The 'gods' in these stories seem more like superheroes -- or supervillains --
than like the guardians of justice or morality that the western religious tradition believes in.Er... The Greek, Roman and "Viking" religious traditions are western :smallconfused:

So far as I know, the Egyptian gods were more or less relatively sedate, apart from all the incest and phallus-losing and the like. They mostly kept their raunchy and violent behaviour amongst themselves, too, rather than bringing mere mortals into it. In fact, most of them are pretty decent folk (aside from the aforementioned incest, etc). Isis, Osiris, Horus, Thoth... Yeah, generally decent. Even Set didn't do much to people, except in a vague elemental sort of a way. The only one who did have a go at people was... Who was it? The woman... Hathor was the cow-goddess, Bast the cat-goddess... I forget her name. The one who rained destruction down upon the world, anyway.

[hamishspence]

Sekhmet, goddess of devastation. according to one theory, the reason there are more sekhmet idols than anything else, is that Egypt went through a catastrophe.

the "Exodus was based on real events- Thera eruption" theory uses this as the specific disaster.

Unfortunately for the theory- the eruption might not have been quite big enough to "rain fire upon the land of Egypt". Though it was a very big eruption.

The Theory also assumes that the order of the plagues was rewritten afterward, to put them in escalating order of perceived importance.

[Telonius]

Is it just me or do a lot of these myths read like stuff we'd read in DC or Marvel
comics? The 'gods' in these stories seem more like superheroes -- or supervillains --
than like the guardians of justice or morality that the western religious tradition believes in.

The gods -- in the Greek stories anyway -- are neither good nor bad, simply larger than life.
And people seem to 'worship' them for the same reason the kids in the house flatter an
abusive father -- to keep him from beating them up or killing them between the time he gets home and starts drinking but before he passes out in a pool of his own vomit.

For that matter, I wonder if the original myths that we're looking at weren't just a form of early comic book -- not meant to be *real* necessarily, but simply characters in a story?
Certainly sounds like the sort of thing Elan -- who is in the process of inventing his own
pantheon -- would do.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, it's possible.... (I would link to wikipedia's article on Thor, the comic book hero, but the little link button seems to be broken. Insert laughter here).

Personally I think it's more likely that comic books are an early form of religion. 5,000 years from now when the archaeologists dig up all of the geeks' basements, they'll find ceremonial figurines of all of our gods and goddesses, pictogram records describing their exploits, rumors of large gatherings where people went to worship the gods, complaints over the priesthood getting too much of our money...

[Nerd-o-rama]

And of course, this is exactly what people have dug up in Greece and Egypt, from which we get large portions of our knowledge of their mythologies, particularly in the latter case.

[Dervag]

Though we generally don't build big temples with 20-foot statues of Superman in them, and archaeologists have found those, too...

[Jayngfet]

Hey, blizzard has a more detailed statue of one of their starcraft characters of comperable size.

[xanaphia]

Then again, Blizzard owns World of Warcraft, and can thus can basically do what it wants.

Also, I don't think that most of what goes on in especially Greek mythology would get into a comic. Look up Ganymede.

[Dervag]

That's mostly just a difference in mores. Ganymede's story was socially acceptable back in ancient Greece. Future archaeologists might get some very unusual ideas about what was socially acceptable if all they had to go on was superhero comics.

God help our reputation if they got their hands on the fan fiction.

[Yulian]

You know, I think I've found out why I keep dwelling on this, no one ever learns anything. Zeus never thinks to keep his pants on, no matter how many people die thanks to the latest cosmic horror unleashed from his genetals, and hera never thinks to just kill them, or do anything about it, it's always the horrible monster route, which never stops Zeus, and she never stops being surprised at his latest fling and never thinks of another solution. At this point I'm wondering how the Greeks and Romans were able to think of their gods as all powerful and wise.

Ha! Shows what you know. Zeus never wore pants.

Actually, Zeus's children weren't monsters. I'm not sure where you got that notion. In fact, I can't think of a single one who was. Mostly, they were Heroes (in the Classical Greek sense), or other gods. Are you thinking of Typhon and Echidna? Their children were a panoply of horrors.

Hera did try and kill Hercules in his cradle.

The whole Norse god thing is because you're looking at disparate faiths and cultural stories blending together over time. Heck, look at the Greco-Roman and Egyptian gods. The parallels were so strong there that there are stories of them being the same being in different form, or there's the stories about how the Pantheon fled to Egypt during the Titanomachy and took different shapes and names there. Most of the Greco-Roman and Egyptian deities were conflated into composite beings in certain discussions. Hermes alone was conflated with both Thoth and Anubis.

So the being we refer to as "Loki" is a composite of numerous actual gods and characters over time. Remember, Odin was the Alfdaur for a long time until Thor-worship displaced him and then Thor was ruler of the Aesir for a while until it switched back again later (most notably post-Christian).

Sometimes Loki is Odin's blood brother, sometimes an adopted son, and so on.

It's all very interestingly tangled. You see it today. Recently. Christmas? According to the mythical account, Christ (see Mithras or Dionysis) was very likely born in the Spring. But the Solstice is in December, so was Saturnalia. The celebration was moved by Emperor Constantine to composite a Christian celebration with two others celebrating Saturn (Roman) and Mithras (Persian).

Regarding the Heliopolitans, I mentioned Sekhmet in my earlier post. She is potentially an aspect of Hathor or Bast. She was a murder machine. They had to get her drunk using a lake of beer and the setting sun to make it look like a lake of blood.

Set, Sutekh, or whatever also wasn't "evil" per se, not initially. He was a god of the desert (thus, his sterility), foreigners (red is his colour, Egyptians only ever saw red hair on foreigners), and a war god. He was said to be the guy who fought off the serpent Apep and protected Ra during his nighttime boat ride. As his worship became less popular, some of his aspects and duties were subsumed into his nephew, Horus. No one's quite sure what the hell kind of animal his head's supposed to be, though.

- Yulian

[GenericFighter]

Ever heard the story of Tereus, Procne and Philomela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela_(princess_of_Athens))? Jerkiness ascendent all around.

[Serpentine]

Regarding the Heliopolitans, I mentioned Sekhmet in my earlier post. She is potentially an aspect of Hathor or Bast. She was a murder machine. They had to get her drunk using a lake of beer and the setting sun to make it look like a lake of blood.

Set, Sutekh, or whatever also wasn't "evil" per se, not initially. He was a god of the desert (thus, his sterility), foreigners (red is his colour, Egyptians only ever saw red hair on foreigners), and a war god. He was said to be the guy who fought off the serpent Apep and protected Ra during his nighttime boat ride. As his worship became less popular, some of his aspects and duties were subsumed into his nephew, Horus. No one's quite sure what the hell kind of animal his head's supposed to be, though.

- YulianAh, Sekmet, that's the one. And I forgot about Set guarding Ra, that's a bit of a big deal. I know of a few theories about his head. There's "some unknown animal", "a type of Nile perch", or "anteater". I like the idea of an anteater - it's about the same sort of shape, anteaters lived in the desert (or at least the savannah) and if you watch a giant anteater claw open a giant ant nest, you can see a parallel with the desert/Chaos eroding Civilisation.

[Kato]

Personally I think it's more likely that comic books are an early form of religion. 5,000 years from now when the archaeologists dig up all of the geeks' basements, they'll find ceremonial figurines of all of our gods and goddesses, pictogram records describing their exploits, rumors of large gatherings where people went to worship the gods, complaints over the priesthood getting too much of our money...

You know, that's a pretty good point. I've wondered myself if the Silmarillion will ever turn into a Holy Book in some thousand years and people will start worshipping Eru and the Vaiar, and in some hundred years we will have priests of Ulmo and Manwe running the religious life. Or at least archeaologists thinking we'd have worshipped them. (Replace Silmarillion, Eru etc with your favourite book)

[Hunter Noventa]

I thinka character in an episode of Star Trek said it best. When informed that the Federation ahs been monitoring their transmissions for a long time, she says "I hope you don't judge us by our popular culture."

Let's hope the future archeologists know better than to judge the world by Superman and The Goddamn Batman.

[Lyesmith]

When the Spaniards turned up in South America, Quetzalcouatl (and similar) was sort of worshipped in absentia by various peoples. The Aztecs were actively worshipping Huitzilopochtli, a god of sun and war. It was he who demanded human sacrifices, not Quetzalcouatl.
Just sayin' :smallwink:

Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you. *bows*
The source I read must've got them conflated.

I do like Loki, for all his little peccadilloes ("Oh Loki, you and your Ragnarok-causing tendencies, what a charming and delightful rogue you are"), but then again I've got a bit of a soft spot for tricksters.

Also, this.

You know, that's a pretty good point. I've wondered myself if the Silmarillion will ever turn into a Holy Book in some thousand years and people will start worshipping Eru and the Vaiar, and in some hundred years we will have priests of Ulmo and Manwe running the religious life. Or at least archeaologists thinking we'd have worshipped them. (Replace Silmarillion, Eru etc with your favourite book)

I would totally be on board with a religion that had Granny Weatherwax or DEATH as a patron deity. Because that religion would like as not be awesome.

[Philistine]

I don't know whether Tolkien's writings will ever become "religious texts," but it wouldn't surprise me. Not in a world where people list "Jedi" as their religion on censuses. And I know, from college coursework in modern religions, that in the 1960s someone founded a church based on the Martian church in Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.

EDIT: Ha! Found it! I don't know whether a link would violate forum guidelines; but it's called the Church of All Worlds.