Flanking question

[Zeitgeist]

I only know bits and pieces of D&D, so I have a question about flanking. I know that a sneak attack will work if the target is flanked.

For somebody to be considered flanked, you have to have 2 people (can include the rogue) fighting the target in melee, right?

And since Haley is using a bow, she does not contribute to that two, right?

And Mr. Scruffy can count for the other one, right?

Just to clear up my knowledge.

I remember playing Neverwinter Nights, I think it's kind of broken. In that, as long as the enemy is NOT targeting the rogue (IE: hitting or preparing to hit or approaching), sneak attack will always go off, with any weapon. That's the only requirement there, but I suspect it's bastardized.

[factotum]

Flanking isn't really relevant for Bozzok anyway. He has Improved Uncanny Dodge (Rogues get it for free) and is several Rogue levels higher than Haley, as proved by his earlier ability to Sneak Attack her; therefore she can't Sneak Attack him no matter how many flankers help out.

[Tyrmatt]

The rules of D&D are based on a grid system. As a result, flanking works by simply having 2 PC's (or NPCs) on squares adjacent to the sneak attackee, with premise being that trying to dodge away from one allows the other a moment to study your movement and attack accordingly. The sneak attack works slightly in reverse. The other provides the necessary distraction and the rogue slips a weapon between their ribs. The weapon itself is irrelevant (as we see from Haley using just arrows in her bare hands to sneak attack Sabine)

The melee part is mostly irrelevant as bows have no minimum range requirement and so you can quite freely shoot a ranged weapon into someone at 5 feet or 50 feet.

[Aron Times]

But according to the 3.5 rules, ranged weapons do not threaten any squares. Flanking requires two allies to threaten the enemy at either side. Also, firing a ranged weapon in melee provokes an opportunity attack.

Then again, this is irrelevant because of Bozzok's Improved Uncanny Dodge.

[Yendor]

Also, Mr. Scruffy can't flank because he has a reach of zero feet.

[Teron]

The rules of D&D are based on a grid system. As a result, flanking works by simply having 2 PC's (or NPCs) on squares adjacent to the sneak attackee, with premise being that trying to dodge away from one allows the other a moment to study your movement and attack accordingly. The sneak attack works slightly in reverse. The other provides the necessary distraction and the rogue slips a weapon between their ribs. The weapon itself is irrelevant (as we see from Haley using just arrows in her bare hands to sneak attack Sabine)

The melee part is mostly irrelevant as bows have no minimum range requirement and so you can quite freely shoot a ranged weapon into someone at 5 feet or 50 feet.
In addition to Joseph Silver's correction, note that flankers have to be on opposite sides of a creature, not merely within reach. The technical definition is that a line drawn between the centers of the spaces they occupy must pass through opposite borders or corners of the opponent's space.

[Myou]

I'd like to try to clear this up.

Flanking: When a character is being threatened by attack from both sides, this gives the attackers a bonus and allows rogues to use sneak attacks on the character. Most characters threaten the spaces immediately adjacent to them, but tiny characters like Mr. Scruffy cannot reach any square but their own, this means that to flank Mr. Scruffy has to enter his target's space.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: The is an automatic ability of all rogues above level 8 that makes them immune to all flanking by any attackers that are not rogues 4 or more levels higher than they are.

This means that Bozzock, who can flank Haley, is four or more levels higher in the rogue class than she is. It also means that Bozzock can't be flanked by Haley or Belkar.

[yanmaodao]

I remember playing Neverwinter Nights, I think it's kind of broken. In that, as long as the enemy is NOT targeting the rogue (IE: hitting or preparing to hit or approaching), sneak attack will always go off, with any weapon. That's the only requirement there, but I suspect it's bastardized.

I think it's like this for all CRPG adaptations of 3rd (or 3.5) edition D&D, because the grid definition is unwieldy to program. I remember playing the original Knights of the Old Republic back in the day, and its rules were similar. Have a few levels of Scoundrel (the game's equivalent of Rogue) before you become a Jedi, and then every attack you make against an enemy who is not attacking you is a Sneak Attack. Therefore, the abundance of stunning type grenades in the game made combat much too easy for me.

In Icewind Dale II, have a caster cast Confusion or something, and one melee warrior with Sneak Attack can take out battalions.

[Zeitgeist]

Improved Uncanny Dodge: The is an automatic ability of all rogues above level 8 that makes them immune to all flanking by any attackers that are not rogues 4 or more levels higher than they are.

This means that Bozzock, who can flank Haley, is four or more levels higher in the rogue class than she is. It also means that Bozzock can't be flanked by Haley or Belkar.

If you can't be flanked, as a rogue, unless your attackers are 4 levels higher, then how could Haley be flanked by those low level rogues that were coming after her?

[Zevox]

If you can't be flanked, as a rogue, unless your attackers are 4 levels higher, then how could Haley be flanked by those low level rogues that were coming after her?
Because Bozzok is four levels higher than her. The other Rogues couldn't sneak attack her, but he still can, as long as one of them is there to establish the flanking. That's why he was able to sneak attack her earlier even though Crystal couldn't, too.

Zevox

[Myou]

If you can't be flanked, as a rogue, unless your attackers are 4 levels higher, then how could Haley be flanked by those low level rogues that were coming after her?

They couldn't flank her, they were just there to fulfil the requirements for Bozzock to flank her. Think of it this way; effectively rogues do still get flanked by weaker rogues/other classes, but only a rogue four or more levels higher can actually make use of the flanking bonus provided or use it to make sneak attacks.

Of course, Bozzock should have still been able to attack her while she was killing the potential flankers, but that's a whole other issue.

Edit: Zevox got there before me.

[Voyager_I]

Haley was readying actions to kill the Flankers when Bozzok attacked.

Yes, apparently the best way to deal with being flanked is to entirely ignore the more dangerous attacker.

[Zeitgeist]

So wouldn't it make more sense to say that being 4 levels higher when your target has uncanny dodge is a requirement for sneak attack, rather than it's a requirement for flanking? I mean, wouldn't a surprise sneak attack (without the flank) also be denied without a 4 level boost?

[Zevox]

So wouldn't it make more sense to say that being 4 levels higher when your target has uncanny dodge is a requirement for sneak attack, rather than it's a requirement for flanking? I mean, wouldn't a surprise sneak attack (without the flank) also be denied without a 4 level boost?
Not quite. Improved Uncanny Dodge specifically makes Rogues immune to flanking and sneak attacks from that particular method, and the workaround of being a Rogue 4 levels higher than you her applies only to that.

Regular Uncanny Dodge makes Rogues immune to being caught flat-footed, but the 4-levels-higher workaround does not apply to that one. The only workaround there is if the Rogue in question is immobilized completely, such as when they are asleep or paralyzed, and in those instances she could be sneak attacked by any Rogue, regardless of their level.

Zevox

[Setra]

Haley was readying actions to kill the Flankers when Bozzok attacked.

Yes, apparently the best way to deal with being flanked is to entirely ignore the more dangerous attacker.
Presuming Bozzok is more than 4 levels higher than Haley, his sneak attack could add as much as 9d6.

That sounds painful. Especially given a D6 hit die.

[Simanos]

You can Sneak Attack with Feint or any other reason that denies DEX bonus to AC.
Uncanny Dodge deals with Flat Footedness and invisible attackers and Improved UD deals with Flanking. There are other ways, though Feint is the only one I can think of tbh.

[Voyager_I]

Presuming Bozzok is more than 4 levels higher than Haley, his sneak attack could add as much as 9d6.

That sounds painful. Especially given a D6 hit die.

I was referring to the discrepancy between how the rules work and what makes sense realistically. I'm pretty sure if you were in a real fight, you wouldn't handle that situation quite the same way.

[Roderick_BR]

I'm pretty sure that you can flank and sneak attack with a bow. I remember a book that used Lidda's miniature in several photos of a battle grid, showing how she could flank creatures, including creatures od different sides. But that was still 3.0, maybe they changed it in 3.5.

[metagaia]

I'm pretty sure that you can flank and sneak attack with a bow. I remember a book that used Lidda's miniature in several photos of a battle grid, showing how she could flank creatures, including creatures od different sides. But that was still 3.0, maybe they changed it in 3.5.

You definitely cannot flank with a bow, unless you use it as some sort of improvised club. Sneak attack when the conditions are met is fine as long as you are within 30 feet of the target (though personally I houserule that can extend to 60 if you take 1 full round of concentration).

Bozzok should probably have readied his action to attack Hayley whenever she would have attacked the flanker, thus coming first on 'the stack', don't know what his INT score is though.

[awibs]

Also, Mr. Scruffy can't flank because he has a reach of zero feet.

I don't know that he can flank by the technical definition of occupying the opposing square in a straight light, but he definitely can get (and has gotten) directly in an enemy's square and attacked their face as a means of distracting them long enough to prevent spell or missile firing until Belkar can attack. Whether or not this can qualify as flanking for the purposes of a sneak attack is moot, as Belkar is not a rouge and he seems to work rather exclusively with Belkar.

(That, and I suspect that it resembles flanking enough to be an option should it ever be needed for comedic effect.)

[Setra]

I was referring to the discrepancy between how the rules work and what makes sense realistically. I'm pretty sure if you were in a real fight, you wouldn't handle that situation quite the same way.
Most fights I've ever been in consisted of one on one, but 'get the one who will go down first' always seemed like a good idea.

If you're fighting two people, one is buff, one is frail, beat up the frail one so you can concentrate on the buff one.

Alternatively a Black Belt and a few White Belts.

[Myou]

I don't know that he can flank by the technical definition of occupying the opposing square in a straight light, but he definitely can get (and has gotten) directly in an enemy's square and attacked their face as a means of distracting them long enough to prevent spell or missile firing until Belkar can attack. Whether or not this can qualify as flanking for the purposes of a sneak attack is moot, as Belkar is not a rouge and he seems to work rather exclusively with Belkar.

(That, and I suspect that it resembles flanking enough to be an option should it ever be needed for comedic effect.)

Creatures with no reach flank when in the same square as the target. So Mr. Scruffy flanks tragets while clawing their faces.

But Bozzock can't be flanked by anyone but a high level rogue to begin with.

[amanamana]

Most fights I've ever been in consisted of one on one, but 'get the one who will go down first' always seemed like a good idea.

If you're fighting two people, one is buff, one is frail, beat up the frail one so you can concentrate on the buff one.

Alternatively a Black Belt and a few White Belts.

You are quite right. Every time I had a sparring with more than one opponent, the better option was always taking care of the lesser foes before engaging the tougher one.
This is so because anyone can hurt you bad if you let them. And if you know who is the tougher one, you should devote most of your attention to him. The easiest way to do this is avoid distractions from other foes. So you got to get rid of them before engaging him.
Of course I'm talking about real life here, not d&d.:smallwink:

[archon_huskie]

Okay. I understand now that the weaker rogues are there to provide a flank for Boz and allowing him a sneak attack. By killing the weaker rogues, Haley makes it so she is not flanked. Because she is no longer flanked. Boz is not able to get the benefit of a sneak attack.


Do I have it right?

[xanaphia]

When I'm doing two on one sparring, I always try to push the weaker opponent into the stronger opponent. It means you basically get to bash him up while using him as a shield.

[Simanos]

Creatures with no reach flank when in the same square as the target. So Mr. Scruffy flanks tragets while clawing their faces.
No they don't. They never flank anything.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking

PS: What are you guys talking about fighting in real life? You're getting too violent for me :p

[Zherog]

You can Sneak Attack with Feint or any other reason that denies DEX bonus to AC.
Uncanny Dodge deals with Flat Footedness and invisible attackers and Improved UD deals with Flanking. There are other ways, though Feint is the only one I can think of tbh.

Catch the target while they're stunned is another fairly easy one, assuming you have teammates who are willing to help.

Catch the target while climbing (unless the target has a climb speed) is another.

[Myou]

Okay. I understand now that the weaker rogues are there to provide a flank for Boz and allowing him a sneak attack. By killing the weaker rogues, Haley makes it so she is not flanked. Because she is no longer flanked. Boz is not able to get the benefit of a sneak attack.


Do I have it right?

Yep.


No they don't. They never flank anything.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking

PS: What are you guys talking about fighting in real life? You're getting too violent for me :p

I know I read somewhere that they can, I can't remember where though. Maybe it was a variant rule or something.

[Simanos]

Maybe you dreamed about it or it is a false memory.
Humans aren't perfect you know :p

[Myou]

Maybe you dreamed about it or it is a false memory.
Humans aren't perfect you know :p

I'll probably run across it somewhere and realise that I misunderstood it to begin with.