SPOILERS Wild Theory that COULD happen.

[OOTS_Supporter]

NOTE: I do not want this theory to becoe true, I just think that it might happen. I think it would be really sad if it did happen, but it probably will not.

I think that the OOTS will be reduced to Roy, Haley, and Elan.

Why?

Roy is the main character, and usually has the main plot points going on. He is the leader, and obviously will get raised. I think.

Haley and Elan are both plot heavy characters almost equal to Roy. THey usually have plot points around them going on too.

Belkar has been predicted to die already, and he may.

V has gone insane, and MAY become evil searching for Haley and UAP(Ultimate Arcane Power)

Durkon will return to the Dwarvern Lands after death. I think to get to Kraagor's Gate (don't know geography) they will cross through their terriotry, and Durkon may die.

The LInear Guild is limited to Nale Sabine and Thog mostly, and every time they get new members, they either quit or die in the process. They may last that way.

All of those hint at those three being the OOTS at the end..

Crazy THeory that probably won't happen, and most parts are shaky, but possible.

[Zevox]

Durkon will return to the Dwarvern Lands after death. I think to get to Kraagor's Gate (don't know geography) they will cross through their terriotry, and Durkon may die.
A better reason (OtOoPCs spoiler):
There is another prophecy about Durkon, direct from Odin himself, saying that when he next returns to the Dwarven lands, he will bring death and destruction to them. That was why he was sent away indefinitely to begin with.

Well, how do you fulfill both of these prophecies: Durkon returning posthumously, and bringing death and destruction with him when he does?

Simple: undeath. He dies, is made into some undead being by Xykon, and used in an attack on the Dwarven lands on the way to Kraagor's Gate.

Just a little theory I and a few other posters discussed elsewhere.


The LInear Guild is limited to Nale Sabine and Thog mostly, and every time they get new members, they either quit or die in the process. They may last that way.
That... is actually a very frightening observation. I hadn't noticed that the remaining Linear Guild members coincided precisely with the three Order members least likely to (permanently) die during the story. That could very well hint at precisely this occurring, given their until-recently continuous focus on their evil opposite theme. They wind up remaining in-theme, but because the Order is reduced to the members opposite the remaining Linear Guild members rather than because the Guild recruits more again.

Anyway, the one flaw I see is with V. I don't see her as becoming evil or insane, and I do expect her to recover her wits once the Order is reunited and she finally trances again. There'll probably be some unforseen difficulty along the way, but I expect it to occur. The only way I see her leaving the Order permanently is if she dies too...

...but we do have a potential hint that she may, from the Oracle's "as for the Elf" remark to Belkar when trying to convince him that his prophecy had come true. All of the other deaths he mentioned had already happened, and convoluted and just plain wrong as his logic for Belkar "causing" them was, he was right about the events themselves. Of course, V's death may occur only after the comic has ended, and the Oracle's comment would still be sensible, but I think it equally possible that the Giant tossed that out as foreshadowing, and foreshadowing of the best sort, the kind you can overlook or dismiss very easily, preserving the surprise of the event itself.

So yes, surprising as it is, I do think this is a genuine wild theory that plausibly could actually happen.

Zevox

[OOTS_Supporter]

V is also the main flaw in the theory through my opinion. I just wish that this wasn't a possible speculation. Because every character in the OOTS is awesome, losing three of the main characters would be truly sad.

I wish V would come and Disintegrate this theory. from possibility.

[Ghastly Epigram]

I also notice that those are the three members of the Order who are not human, as well as the three who have had the least screen time and development.

Damn humans...:smallannoyed:

[Eloel]

I also notice that those are the three members of the Order who are not human, as well as the three who have had the least screen time and development.

Damn humans...:smallannoyed:

That assumes Haley actually IS a human.

[Ghastly Epigram]

That assumes Haley actually IS a human.

Yes. It also assumes Elan actually IS a human, and Roy actually IS a human. :smalltongue:

(Seriously though, the "Haley is something else" theory is relatively plausible I suppose. But chances her she is still at least HALF human. And from what we know now, the point still stands.)

[Kaytara]

Interesting theory. If Durkon and Belkar die around the same time, this could truly be a new dark hour for the OotS. (Yeah, like we didn't have enough of those already... XD)

The only flaw I see is that it will probably be some time before our heroes head for Kraagor's Gate and Durkon gets killed. Even assuming that Vaarsuvius WILL eventually go insane and/or evil, I think it's likely to happen sooner rather than later, so by the time the party goes to Kraagor's Gate the situation with V will have resolved itself one way or the other.

I don't think Vaarsuvius will die though. The "As for the elf..." seemed more like a hint that something sinister would happen to V rather than just death - especially seeing as the Oracle's preceding argument, that about Windstriker, ignored the fact that the horse wasn't dead and was interpreting the word 'death'. I think V's case should be something similar. Personally, I think V will somehow be coerced into selling his soul to the literal devil in the middle of all this, which could very easily be interpreted as dying inside, or something like that.

[T-O-E]

I've never really thought of that. I've always assumed the entire order will reunite and then continue with their quests for the gates.

[Kish]

*holds up a copy of Dungeon Crawling Fools* The Linear Guild's core was supposed to be Nale and Sabine. Thog has only lasted past the first battle with the Order because of his popularity.

[The Bookworm]

About "As for the elf"...
Given the sort of long winded connections the Oracle was using in that strip, it seems like what he was pointing out was V blaming enself for not having enough spells, and not being powerful enough to find Miss Starshine and Co. V said the if V had spent more time focussed and less casting explosive runes on Belkar, he could've found them. While this is untrue, (Cloister is what's preventing V's scrying), V blames enself for wasting time on Belkar. With Oracle-Brand-Logic, this is what makes V leave. If that causes V to die, then it would be "Belkar's Fault", and Belkar is the Causer of V's Death.

[T-O-E]

Yeah, but I doubt we can trust the Oracle. He only said "as for the elf" to save himself at the last minute, meaning that the details of hir death were even less connected to Belkar than the others.

[isocum]

don't know about v, but i am pretty much sure that girard's gate will claim durkons life. belkar may die with durkon, but i think will be replaced with a saphire guard paladin/or turn into some sort of unliving being, so i predict an earlier death for him.

[David Argall]

Origin There is another prophecy about Durkon, direct from Odin himself, saying that when he next returns to the Dwarven lands, he will bring death and destruction to them. That was why he was sent away indefinitely to begin with.

Well, how do you fulfill both of these prophecies: Durkon returning posthumously, and bringing death and destruction with him when he does?

Simple: undeath. He dies, is made into some undead being by Xykon, and used in an attack on the Dwarven lands on the way to Kraagor's Gate.

Just a little theory I and a few other posters discussed elsewhere.

Not much chance. "Bring" here suggests a much more active role for Durkon than as some minion. He will more likely either be the first sign of Xykon approach as both sides rush to the gate, and/or will persuade the dwarves to oppose Xykon.


from the Oracle's "as for the Elf" remark to Belkar when trying to convince him that his prophecy had come true. All of the other deaths he mentioned had already happened, and convoluted and just plain wrong as his logic for Belkar "causing" them was, he was right about the events themselves. Of course, V's death may occur only after the comic has ended, and the Oracle's comment would still be sensible, but I think it equally possible that the Giant tossed that out as foreshadowing,

The Oracle suggested as alternatives ..
Roy..a stretch, but valid logic
Miko...more of a stretch, and the logic is invalid
Miko's horse... Even more of a stretch and the logic is hopeless
So any reference to V's death would be a fantastic stretch and completely illogical. Predicting anything from it is a waste of time.

[shadowdemon_lord]

First of all I'd like to say this: Last time we heard from the Linear guild they were locked in the dungeons of Sapphire City, and they were not freed before team evil set up house there. So, we really have no idea as to if they are even still alive. Killing such major villains off screen seems like poor writing, so I'd venture to say they're okay, for now. What their real status is though remains a mystery.

As for this theory, I can see it happening, but I'm not sure it will. I too have always assumed the order will bring Durkon to his homeland after his death, right in front of Xykon and possibly his hobo army. Nothings to say Durkon wont be raised (and given the high number of clerics in Durkons homeland, it seems likely).

I predict that V's little storyline with the imp will eventually get resolved with V sending the imp back to the nether realms from whence it came shortly after she finds miss starshine. She may do some bad stuff in between though.

[T-O-E]

First of all I'd like to say this: Last time we heard from the Linear guild they were locked in the dungeons of Sapphire City, and they were not freed before team evil set up house there. So, we really have no idea as to if they are even still alive. Killing such major villains off screen seems like poor writing, so I'd venture to say they're okay, for now. What their real status is though remains a mystery.

What? They escaped the prison and flew off.

[Kish]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

[Zevox]

Not much chance. "Bring" here suggests a much more active role for Durkon than as some minion. He will more likely either be the first sign of Xykon approach as both sides rush to the gate, and/or will persuade the dwarves to oppose Xykon.
Your "bring" argument is pure semantics, and strictly your interpretation of them at that. The prophecies would both work out perfectly as I described them. And if you're that hung up on it, just consider the possibility of Xykon making Durkon into an intelligent undead and putting him in charge of part of his forces, or something like that.

And either of your alternatives would violate the prophecy that Durkon will only return to his homeland posthumously. Plus frankly I don't see how they even fulfill your own "more active role" requirement, since in either case Xykon was headed there already anyway.

The Oracle suggested as alternatives ..
Roy..a stretch, but valid logic
Miko...more of a stretch, and the logic is invalid
Miko's horse... Even more of a stretch and the logic is hopeless
So any reference to V's death would be a fantastic stretch and completely illogical. Predicting anything from it is a waste of time.
I am fully aware of all this David, as the comment you quoted should have made clear to begin with (I outright say that Oracle's logic was convoluted and plain wrong). This is why I pointed it out as a possibility, not some definite fact we can interpret from the comment; and why I added the note, which you left out of your quote, about how the foreshadowing would have thus been done in such a way as to make it easily dismissed, the way you just did, in order to preserve the surprise of the event itself.

Zevox

[Setra]

Durkon will return to his homeland posthumously.

However given the nature of the oracle couldn't he also return once before he dies, then return later dead?

[Kaytara]

The Oracle suggested as alternatives ..
Roy..a stretch, but valid logic
Miko...more of a stretch, and the logic is invalid
Miko's horse... Even more of a stretch and the logic is hopeless
So any reference to V's death would be a fantastic stretch and completely illogical. Predicting anything from it is a waste of time.

David, the logic may be invalid but I think the point here is that the Oracle was still referring to real events, he wasn't lying. Both Roy and Miko were dead, even if the link between Belkar and their deaths was too indirect to take seriously. And Windstriker IS trapped in the Afterlife now that his master no longer lives.
Therefore, it stands to reason that something may yet happen to V (even if Belkar will have hardly been to blame for that). It probably won't be death, though, but some creative interpretation of that instead, as with Windstriker.

[Rotipher]

A better reason (OtOoPCs spoiler):
There is another prophecy about Durkon, direct from Odin himself, saying that when he next returns to the Dwarven lands, he will bring death and destruction to them. That was why he was sent away indefinitely to begin with.

Well, how do you fulfill both of these prophecies: Durkon returning posthumously, and bringing death and destruction with him when he does?


Maybe because it's going to be Belkar who brings Durkon's corpse home? :smallwink:

Seriously, though: does Odin's prophecy necessarily state that it's a bad thing that Durkon is bringing "death and destruction" to the dwarves? If the wording isn't explicit, it's entirely possible that Durkon (or his corpse) will place the power of death and destruction at the dwarves' disposal, not inflict it upon them. Given the loooong tradition of misinterpretation of prophecies in fantasy, and the OotS gods' previous failures to clear up their followers' misconceptions, it's hypothetically possible that the dwarves who'd cast out Durkon misunderstood Odin's message, and he'll actually bring them the means to rain death and destruction on their enemies.

Sorry if this has come up a million times on a previous thread, BTW; I'm new here, and haven't read the origin-story comic, so I'm not sure how Odin's prophecy was actually worded. :smallredface:

[bluewind95]

Perhaps nothing will happen to V, since "as for the elf..." could easily be followed by "you do not get to harm him/her".

I recall Belkar asked if he would get to kill Roy, Miko, V, Miko's horse or the Oracle?

[[TS] Shadow]

To the OP: your logic works. I hate the idea as much as you do, but the logic works.

To the whole Durkon returning home debate: Durkon asked "When will I FINALLY be returning to my dwarfen homelands." While this is a stretch, it's possible that Durkon will be able visit there more than once, and die on his final return. I don't think the Giant will make Durkon an undead though. That would just be cruel.

[Cracklord]

Stretching prophecies aside, I was just informed about this thread and felt a need to include my two cents.
While I am not sure that the above theory will come totally to pass, I feel the membership of Oots is about to change. Drastically. Durkon and Belkar will pass on. It has been confirmed. The difference being Durkon will be laughing his head off when Belkar's a burning in hell.
V will go evil. Nothing anyone can say, no matter how well worded or accurate will convince me otherwise.
However I feel the overall membership will change. I've thought for a while that Thog will find redemption (ever since he became Elan's friend), and the inclusion of a character called Yor has strengthened my conviction. I feel it is also possible that the order will grow to resemble not so much a typical DnD party but a group more along the lines of Final Fantasy, where you have about twenty specialists each of who you select for each encounter.
But I like your theory. It has a better ring to it then mine. While I will not give up hope on Thog, I see the party decreasing.

[Limos]

Perhaps nothing will happen to V, since "as for the elf..." could easily be followed by "you do not get to harm him/her".

I recall Belkar asked if he would get to kill Roy, Miko, V, Miko's horse or the Oracle?

The prophecy of who Belkar would kill only had to apply to one person in the list. Since the Oracle was on there and the Oracle got killed by Belkar we can no longer assume that Belkar will kill anyone else on the list.

Since the prophecy has already been fullfilled Vaarsuvius has as much chance of being killed by Belkar as every other single character in the comic. Maybe slightly less than Bozzok. But Bozzok is just brimming with incipent mortality.

[David Argall]

Your "bring" argument is pure semantics, and strictly your interpretation of them at that. The prophecies would both work out perfectly as I described them. And if you're that hung up on it, just consider the possibility of Xykon making Durkon into an intelligent undead and putting him in charge of part of his forces, or something like that.
I did, and found no way it could fit the story. We are writing a comedy here. How does making Durkon an undead minion of Xykon provide us with much in the way of good jokes? As a live Cassandra for example, he has quite good material.
And how does it fit the story in general? For what amounts to no reason at all, one of our heros is suddenly on the other side? Our strip has been a pretty clear fight of good vs evil, not people switching sides at whim. So making a hero into an Xykon minion is clever [for finding a way to combine the two predictions], but not smart [for failing to realize the two don't need to be combined, and are better uncombined].


And either of your alternatives would violate the prophecy that Durkon will only return to his homeland posthumously.
Easily handled. Among other ways, D&D is a game of easy Raised Dead, despite all the troubles Roy is having. Durkon dies, and he is raised. Everything he does after that is posthumously.



Plus frankly I don't see how they even fulfill your own "more active role" requirement, since in either case Xykon was headed there already anyway.
There are several ways to handle this too. But the basic is that "bring" includes the meaning of being the first or last part of something.




the foreshadowing would have thus been done in such a way as to make it easily dismissed, the way you just did, in order to preserve the surprise of the event itself.
Now granted, our writer does have a tendency to just be clever, but he has in the main been honest with the reader. He foreshadows with entire strips.
Foreshadowing with a tiny hint by the way is the worst kind of foreshadowing, not the best. The reader can't catch it without excessive attention to details, most of which will be meaningless, and the very search detracts from the main story. A story is not meant as a puzzle book. When a writer foreshadows, he is warning the reader, not trying to say "look how clever I am by giving this inadequate clue."

[Kaytara]

Durkon and Belkar will pass on. It has been confirmed. The difference being Durkon will be laughing his head off when Belkar's a burning in hell.
V will go evil. Nothing anyone can say, no matter how well worded or accurate will convince me otherwise.


Minion, I think the key question here would be whether the events you mentioned would be permanent. Will Durkon and Belkar die (the latter, at least in SOME form or fashion)? Inevitably. Will Vaarsuvius go evil at some point? It seems likely. However, whether Durkon will stay dead and if Vaarsuvius should permanently stay evil, that is anyone's guess.

[Kish]

V will go evil. Nothing anyone can say, no matter how well worded or accurate will convince me otherwise.
Not even if Rich were to respond to this post and say, "No, V won't go evil"?

[Zevox]

I did, and found no way it could fit the story. We are writing a comedy here. How does making Durkon an undead minion of Xykon provide us with much in the way of good jokes? As a live Cassandra for example, he has quite good material.
In case you missed it, this isn't a pure comedy comic anymore. We have a large - epic, really - story going on, with many moments that were more dramatic or tragic than funny. See things like the deaths of Roy and Miko, for instance, or many parts of Start of Darkness. And there would be plenty of drama and tragedy to be had in seeing Durkon marching on his own homeland under Xykon's control. And seriously, if you can't imagine Rich being able to come up with good jokes using Durkon as an undead minion of Xykon, I don't know what to tell you. He's shown his ability to get jokes out of just about anything quite well from where I'm sitting, and I could definitely see it happening.


Our strip has been a pretty clear fight of good vs evil,
Are we even reading the same strip? We have a Chaotic Evil protagonist (Belkar), a well-intentioned and sympathetic villain (Redcloak), a divided evil team (Redcloak's intentions vs Xykon's), we had a Lawful Good antagonist (Miko) - "clear fight of good vs evil" only works in the most generic overarching sense of the Order vs Xykon or the Linear Guild.


not people switching sides at whim.
Durkon being reanimated by Xykon is not him switching sides at a whim. Quite the contrary, such an event would be entirely against his will. But there's not much an undead creation of an epic-level Lich Sorcerer can do about that. Especially if he's made into a mindless undead.


So making a hero into an Xykon minion is clever [for finding a way to combine the two predictions], but not smart [for failing to realize the two don't need to be combined, and are better uncombined].
They can hardly work without being combined, since both describe the same event (Durkon's return to his homeland), at least not in any way that isn't badly contrived or anticlimactic.


Easily handled. Among other ways, D&D is a game of easy Raised Dead, despite all the troubles Roy is having. Durkon dies, and he is raised. Everything he does after that is posthumously.
Such as this one. The result of the prophecy in this circumstance rests on an arguable semantic technicality. Yawn. That's neither good comedy nor good drama/tragedy/stroytelling of any sort. Regardless of whether the undead theory turns out to be true, I seriously doubt this will be the case.


There are several ways to handle this too. But the basic is that "bring" includes the meaning of being the first or last part of something.
...I don't even know what you're talking about here. Even after checking dictionary.com, this statement makes no sense.

Now granted, our writer does have a tendency to just be clever, but he has in the main been honest with the reader. He foreshadows with entire strips.
Foreshadowing with a tiny hint by the way is the worst kind of foreshadowing, not the best. The reader can't catch it without excessive attention to details, most of which will be meaningless, and the very search detracts from the main story. A story is not meant as a puzzle book. When a writer foreshadows, he is warning the reader, not trying to say "look how clever I am by giving this inadequate clue."
Arguable and subjective. I certainly would consider this an excellent form of foreshadowing - a hint of what is to come, but without giving away the event definitively. Much nicer than, say, the myriad direct indications that Belkar is going to die. That type of foreshadowing just bores me. There needs to be some ambiguity or uncertainty to it, if you ask me.

And Rich has foreshadowed like this at least once before. See the Oracle's offhand comment to Roy and Elan that they were late for a couple of family reunions, foreshadowing their conflict with Nale and meeting with Julia (and perhaps Roy's later reunion with the rest of his family in the afterlife).

Zevox

[Illven]

Who says Durkon has to stay dead though. It is possiable Durkon could die be returned to the dearven lands and then revived. It's only Durkon who persumes that he will be buried in his ancrestal tomb, The orcale never said he would be in the tomb

[fangthane]

Time to debunk some things... People are reading far more certainty into a number of the predictions than they probably should.
"Posthumously" could mean any of the following:
- After having died once and been raised
- After having died a final death
- After having died and been brought back as undead
- After having died and prior to being raised/resurrected/etc.
On our world, the word has a rather clearer definition since it's only applied after all resuscitation has been attempted and we've no effective means of bringing back the dead. In a D&D context, it's less clear and frankly that's not a bad thing, as it allows the Giant a certain flexibility despite the prediction. The fact that Durkon used the word "finally" rather than "next" is completely in-character under the circumstances, but frustrating to anyone trying to draw a concrete conclusion, since it might well mean that the FIRST time he returns, he's alive. And the second, and the third, and then FINALLY he returns posthumously.

bringing death and destruction to his homeland could mean any of the following:
- Being followed back home by a handful of unleveled goblins who manage to destroy 3 shop-fronts and a half dozen kegs of ale while causing the elderly watch-dwarf to die from a shock-induced heart attack, before being cut down solo by the sergeant-at-arms.
- Being the undead harbinger of Xykon's remaining forces as they assault the final gate
- Running headlong in front of ~
- Returning, with the surviving OotS members, and warning them of Xykon's impending visit
- Bringing Kraagor's gate and the necessity of defending it to the dwarven leaders' attention


The fact that Belkar has directly caused the death of the Oracle does not mean that:
- he won't kill V or cause his death
- he won't kill or cause the death (again) of Roy
granted, Miko and Windstriker's current unavailability tends to interfere with the possibility he'll cause either of their deaths (again) in future.

The fact that Belkar has been told to savour his next birthday cake doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. Nor does the "not long for this world" comment necessarily need to imply anything beyond its figurative usage, to wit an assertion that Belkar will die - though, granted, it might. Even the statement that he'll draw his last breath is not, in D&D or a sufficiently advanced technological society, necessarily a guarantee that his other vital processes will be impaired, let alone permanently halted, in the process. I'd tend to think it rules out gills and spiracles, since those would be indications of poor advanced planning on Rich's part (seeing as they're effectively alternate means of breathing, rather than an elimination of the process) and I don't see him taking a cheap cop-out shortcut like that. To claim, though, that comments like "not long for this world" are necessarily literal truth, or that use of the verb "to bring" necessarily implies some kind of collaboration with agents of death and destruction, is a gross overstatement of the kind of prophecies we've received. That they could be is certain, but that's hardly the only solution which fits - so to claim anyone with a different semantic interpretation must be wrong is ludicrous.

[Kaytara]

Kudos, fangthane. Well-argued. :D Finally someone addresses the uncertainty of the issue as it should be!

[Nerdanel]

I think we can say the following about Belkar:

1. Belkar will die before the end of the in-comic year and transfer to an afterlife if his soul was not destroyed. Either way, he is no longer on the material plane.
2. IF Belkar returns, it is in a form that does not eat, breathe, or grow old. He will never return to being a mortal halfling.

[xanaphia]

Let's face it, in OOTS the most fun party members are Roy, Hayley, Elan, and Belkar. V is not that interesting, and has far less development. I don't know why the Giant would kill one of his core characters.

[Kish]

Let's face it, in OOTS the most fun party members are Roy, Hayley, Elan, and Belkar.
In my observation, whenever someone says "let's face it," what follows is invariably a statement of pure opinion.

[OOTS_Supporter]

Whenever someone says "let's face it," I've found, what follows is invariably a statement of pure opinion.

She speaks the truth.

[Zevox]

In my observation, whenever someone says "let's face it," what follows is invariably a statement of pure opinion.
Indeed.

In my opinion, I would swap Elan and V's placement from xanaphia's list. Elan rarely amuses me - instead, it is Roy's reactions to his buffoonery that is the amusing part of his role, since I can empathize with him. V, on the other hand, I find very amusing fairly frequently, and she's certainly in the midst of plenty of development right now.

Zevox

[Arachu]

Miko wouldn't have died (or, well, you can't prove she would've) if she weren't in the prison tower. Belkar all but drove her over the edge during the trial. Actually, he did drive her over the edge, but she got cut off by V. In other words, I assert that Belkar pulled out the quarterfinal stone in Miko's proverbial wall of... Well, for lack of a better word let's call it "sanity".

...Which would mean that Belkar also killed Shojo :smallfrown: