Thoughts on Party optimising - 3.5

[Stephen_E]

This is an amalgamation of thoughts caused by several threads recently.

How to optimise a party so the Wizard/Clerics and Druids don't overshadow the rest, and everyone has their niche, without using ToB (many people don't have it or don't like the style).

My design
5 Person Party - Shown at level 11, that been about the level where the non-purecasters get left behind, and where my non-casters "specialties" really start to kick in.

Feel free to comment on my party build or make your own.

Ogre - Barbarian 1/Ranger 2/Fighter 2Feats - Track, 2WF, Cleave (prereq) Improved Bullrush (prereq) Power Attack (prereq) Weapon Focus-Morningstar (prereq) Three Mountains (Style) +1 feat spare (Extra Rage?).

Large Morningstar in Main hand, Med Morningstar in off-hand.
Three Mountains (style) cause your opponents to make a Fort save DC (10 + 1/2 Char lev + Str bonus) if they get hit twice in the same round by your morningstars - Nauseated for 1 round if they fail.

Primary Tracker, Meatshield with strong "save or suck" against everything with a Con. Also covers large space so good for shielding Mages.
Secondary Damage dealer, out of combat healer (Healing Wands from Ranger list).

Progression - Continue Ranger until Greater 2WF +Fighter to avoid multiclass penalties, and then probably go into Frenzied Berserker for extra strength. Get Greater ring of spell storing with Righteous Might

Halfling - Ranger 2/Monk 5/Exotic WM 1/Master Thrower 3
Feats - Imp Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Weapon Focus - Shuriken (prereq) Point Blamk Shot (prereq) Precise Shot (prereq) Track, 2WF, Imp2WF,
Class abilities - Flurry of Blows, Close-quarters Ranged Combat (no AOO when using exotic ranged weapons) Palm Throw (throw 2 weapons with 1 attack, no Str dam) Two with One Blow (1 weapon hits 2 adjacent targets, -4 att).

Throws magical Shurikens, in particular Spell Storing, Bane, Holy and Energy. Spell Storing ones loaded with empowered (through Rod or Sudden Empower) Fireballs (including energy substitution "x"balls) Poison, Cure Serious Wounds, Buffs (casting 6 buffs in a turn has it's points sometimes) and whatever the players deem appropriate.

Primary role - Blaster, Damage dealer, combat healer (1hp damage, 3d8+11x1.5 healing per shuriken).
Secondary - Out of combat healer, Tracker, skill monkey, sneak.

Progression - 2 more levels of Master Thrower for "Weak Spot" - touch attack instead of normal attack, no str dam.

No specific race - Artificer 11
Feats - Artificer feats for Gold and XP reduction. Double Wand Weilding possible.

Primary - Makes all those 1000's of Shurikens + other items as need be. Skill Monkey. Banes Shurikens with infusions if targets known ahead of time.
Secondary - Blaster.

No specific race - Batman Wizard. Possibly Druid/Arcane Heriophant if more spell lists and Companion Familiar wanted for additional meatshield, especially if Precocious Apprentice allowed.

Primary - Charging all those spell storing shuriken, Utility spellcaster aka Batman.
Secondary - God.:smallwink:

No specific race - Cleric

Primary - Out of combat healer, Charging all those shuriken, Meat shield.
Secondary - Utility Caster/Batman, God.:smallwink:

So what do people think? Are all PCs entitled to feel dangerous in this party.


Stephen E

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, not too bad...

For your wizard, I'd got Focused Conjourer, for extra spell slots. Good Conjourations to fill those slots that are party focused include Grease and Benign Transposition at 1st, Glitterdust at 2nd, Stinking Cloud at 3rd, Solid Fog and Dim Door at 4th, and Teleport at 5th. Lots of mobility spells allow your party melee to get into position to do lots of bonus damage, and the disables make if less painful for your melee to engage.

For your melee, I'd suggest swapping out your ogre, however cool, with something like Dwarf Fighter2/Barb2/Ranger1/Deepwarden2/EWM2/PiousTemplar1 using an Urgrosh in both hands as a 1 handed exotic weapon wielded in both hands with the Uncanny Blow and Flurry of Strikes tricks. This gives you lots of attacks that do lots of hurt. Key is to NOT two weapon fight with the Urgrosh, just hold it like a great axe. Gains all the benefits of Uncanny Blow and Flurry of Strikes, without all the suckyness of having to TWF with it or have it be a stupid Bastard Sword.

For your ranged/skill guy, go Glimmerskin Strongheart Halfling Bard. Take Dragonfire Inspiration and Quickdraw, TWF, and Rapid Shot. Throw flaming daggers, lots of them. You'll buff up your to hit by being small, getting racial bonuses to thrown weapons, and the inherant halfling +2 dex. You'll buff up your damage and that of your dorf fighter friend by taking on lots of d6s using optimized Inspire Courage tricks with Dragonfire Inspiration.

For your cleric, go for control/buff. Cleric3/ChurchInquistor2/RadiantServant5/Contemplative1/Sacred ExorcistX gives you strong turning, strong dispelling, and with the right combo of domains and spell selections, allow you to play Batman Lite. Quickened Recitation + Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is a killer combat opener, and control enemy spellcasters with Battlemagic Perception + Greater Dispel Magic and maybe even a pair of Greater Rings of Counterspelling (DMGII) loaded with Greater Dispel Magics (cast by you with your amazing Inquisition and Purification domain bonuses). Backup heal with Lesser Vigor + handful of Pearl of Power 1s between combats as needed.

That team should be made of win. If you could bring 1 more melee in, a Rogue/Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw would be a perfect addition. Duel Wielding of course to take advantage of the bard's Dragonfire Inspiration song.

If you have any questions, I could lay some of this out in greater detail. Would be a pretty badass group though, if you ask me.

[KKL]

Oh man, that Halfling's pretty neat.

[Quietus]

If you stick with that ogre, drop the spare feat into the feat that lets you use a One-handed weapon in your off hand. Currently, he's taking an additional -2 penalty (on top of the TWF penalties) with it, because it's improperly sized. It's not an OPTIMAL feat to take, but removing that -2 means you'll hit with it far more frequently.

Given how much he relies on landing blows with those weapons, I'm wondering if it might actually be worthwhile to take more fighter levels, and pick up Melee Weapon Mastery (bludgeoning). +2 to hit and damage with both morningstars isn't shabby, and forces fort saves more often. Also, does the Three Mountains feat count as a special attack for the purposes of Ability Focus?

[Stephen_E]

If you stick with that ogre, drop the spare feat into the feat that lets you use a One-handed weapon in your off hand. Currently, he's taking an additional -2 penalty (on top of the TWF penalties) with it, because it's improperly sized. It's not an OPTIMAL feat to take, but removing that -2 means you'll hit with it far more frequently.

Given how much he relies on landing blows with those weapons, I'm wondering if it might actually be worthwhile to take more fighter levels, and pick up Melee Weapon Mastery (bludgeoning). +2 to hit and damage with both morningstars isn't shabby, and forces fort saves more often. Also, does the Three Mountains feat count as a special attack for the purposes of Ability Focus?

Oversized 2WFing. Good point. Reduces the off-hand penalty from -4 to -2 and gives +2.5 pts dam as a bonus (by wielding a Lge Morningstar in the off-hand).

To avoid multiclass penalties you have to take 2 more Fighter levels, going to Fighter 4, to match the 3 Ranger levels for Imp 2WF (it's difficult for an Ogre to meet the feat prereqs otherwise).

I'm not sure whether the Three Mountains feat could stack with Ability Focus. I'm certain it's not what the feat was designed for, but some of the fun in optimising is using RAW to subvert RAI.:smallwink:


Stephen E

[Stephen_E]

For your melee, I'd suggest swapping out your ogre, however cool, with something like Dwarf Fighter2/Barb2/Ranger1/Deepwarden2/EWM2/PiousTemplar1 using an Urgrosh in both hands as a 1 handed exotic weapon wielded in both hands with the Uncanny Blow and Flurry of Strikes tricks. This gives you lots of attacks that do lots of hurt. Key is to NOT two weapon fight with the Urgrosh, just hold it like a great axe. Gains all the benefits of Uncanny Blow and Flurry of Strikes, without all the suckyness of having to TWF with it or have it be a stupid Bastard Sword.


Keld, thanks for the Wizard and Cleric suggestions.

The problem with the Dwarf build as I see it is that you're trading of the Ogre's strong "Save or Suck" for increased damage dealing (and the Monk does it better). Most of the threads about "Wizards Win" stess that at high levels it's not really about damage dealing that makes Wizards awesome in combat, it's the "Save or Lose/Suck/Die". A Codzilla can do damage dealing as well, while casting quickened spells. The Ogre can deal decent damage with the potential for multiple "Save or Suck"'s per round and a DC that would make any Cleric or Wizard green with envy (it's that +10 Str). One of the criteria I set for myself is not just that the party be badarse (which yours undoubtedly is) but that every character should be able to feel special in some way, with something that no one can do as well.

Example of conservative Ogre Save DC's.
ECL 11/Lev 9, Base 16 Str, +10 Ogre mod, +2 lev ability increases, +4 Rage, +4 Magic Enhancement = 10 + 4 (1/2 char lev) + 13 (Str bon) = Fort DC 27.

ECL 20/lev 20 (LA buy off) Base 16 Str, +10 Ogre mod, +4 lev ability increases, +4 Rage, +6 Frenzy, +6 Magic Enhancement, +4, Inherent bonus +4, +4 Size bonus (Righteous Might)
= 10 + 10 (1/2 char lev) + 22 (Str bon) = Fort DC 42.


For your ranged/skill guy, go Glimmerskin Strongheart Halfling Bard. Take Dragonfire Inspiration and Quickdraw, TWF, and Rapid Shot. Throw flaming daggers, lots of them. You'll buff up your to hit by being small, getting racial bonuses to thrown weapons, and the inherant halfling +2 dex. You'll buff up your damage and that of your dorf fighter friend by taking on lots of d6s using optimized Inspire Courage tricks with Dragonfire Inspiration.


Interesting. I'd be interested in hearing about the Dragonfire inspiration. Where does it come from? I did think a bard type was missing and that a Warchanter would be good as a 6th party member.

Not knowing the Dragonfire I can't comment directly, but INHO daggers don't have the same versatility as Shuriken for spell storing. 1 Dagger = 50 Shuriken. Sure the Shuriken get destroyed so over time they're more expensive, but with 1000 Shuriken costing the same as 20 Daggers (one rounds firing at higher levels) you simply can't afford to have 100 daggers of Spell Storing with Empowered Cure Serious Wounds.

Thanks for reminding me of the Rapid Shot feat (I completely forgot it :smallredface: ). Also forgot the Multiclassing penalties. Hmm. Makes Human tempting :smallfrown:, but maybe just drop 3 monk levels and take 2 Fighter levels and a 4th Master Thrower lev. That increases the Flurry of Shuriken penalty to -2 and cost 4 skill points, but gives you Rapid Shot, 1
spare feat, +1 BAB and "Weak Spot" 1 lev sooner.

Stephen E

[Stephen_E]

If you stick with that ogre, drop the spare feat into the feat that lets you use a One-handed weapon in your off hand. Currently, he's taking an additional -2 penalty (on top of the TWF penalties) with it, because it's improperly sized. It's not an OPTIMAL feat to take, but removing that -2 means you'll hit with it far more frequently.


It occurs to me that in this circumstance that feat, Oversized 2WFing, IS an OPTIMAL feat, because it's linked to an "increasing with level" DC fort save.

Stephen E

[Stephen_E]

A good higher lev feat chain for the Halfling Shuriken thrower is Str 13/Power Attack/Brutal Throw-CA/Power Throw-CA so that in a antimagic field he can still do damage with his shuriken by converting att to damage while still using Weak Spot to make ranged touch attacks. Very Cheesy :smallbiggrin: but Power Attack isn't Str Damage.

Stephen E

[Arcane_Snowman]

1st rule of practical optimization: Thou shalt not use two weapon fighting without extra damage, you usually get better damage from wielding a 2-handed weapon and using a power attack. Sneak attack, skirmish or dragonfire inspiration is the way to go for TWF. Master Thrower is one of the few exceptions, which leads me to my second point.

Also: things with large strength generally have an equally large amount of constitution. Making him a Psychic Warrior, taking strength of my enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm) and Expasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) will give you the Strength Drain without the suckyness of a fortitude save. Make it a Aoo build instead for increased awesomeness.

While flurry of blows with shurikens is an interesting idea, two-weapon fighting with master thrower is so much better. Alternatively a Cleric 2/Scout 3/Ranger 6 Swift Hunter with Travel Devotion would be rather good as well.

[Stephen_E]

1st rule of practical optimization: Thou shalt not use two weapon fighting without extra damage, you usually get better damage from wielding a 2-handed weapon and using a power attack. Sneak attack, skirmish or dragonfire inspiration is the way to go for TWF. Master Thrower is one of the few exceptions, which leads me to my second point..

The Ogre Two Weapon Fighting isn't about doing damage. It's about making the enemy incapable of dealing damage. It requires hitting twice in the same round, therefore more attacks=better chance of getting two hits. The Ogre is a secondary damage dealer. His primary purpose is meat shield. Stopping your opponent making any attacks is the best way of shielding.



Also: things with large strength generally have an equally large amount of constitution. Making him a Psychic Warrior, taking strength of my enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm) and Expasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) will give you the Strength Drain without the suckyness of a fortitude save. Make it a Aoo build instead for increased awesomeness..

1) Creatures with high strenth generally DON'T have equally high constitution!
2) If you're fighting NPCs then even more so you won't be talking high Cons.

Point of fact. A Great Wrym Red Dragon CR 26 has a 32 Fort save. My 20th lev Ogre would conservatively be forcing a DC 42 fort save. By 26th lev it could easily be a DC 48 fort save.

3) Stripping a point of str per attack is a minor matter in most combats. Nice icing, but seldom makes much difference in my experiance.

4) AAO builds suffer 2 big problems. a) They require your enemy do something for them to work, and b) Anyone can have tumble, and tumble shuts it down. Everything but Constructs and Undead have Fort saves, and I don't recall anything with a fort save having immunity from Nausea. :smallwink:



While flurry of blows with shurikens is an interesting idea, two-weapon fighting with master thrower is so much better. Alternatively a Cleric 2/Scout 3/Ranger 6 Swift Hunter with Travel Devotion would be rather good as well.

You're missing the point. You do Flurry of Blows + 2WFing + Rapid Shot with Shuriken. It's not a choose one situation.
Would be interested in the details of your build, feats ecetre. Don't know the Swift Hunter class.

Some of the comments made raise an intereting point IMHO. Optimising a PC as a single character and optimising a character as an interlocking part of a party optimisation are quite different things.

Stephen E

[Curmudgeon]

You really don't have anyone who can handle locks and traps reliably. If you're stuck in a trap dungeon you're going to suffer.

[Temp.]

You really don't have anyone who can handle locks and traps reliably. If you're stuck in a trap dungeon you're going to suffer. Solution: look at the Trapfinding Ranger variant in Dungeonscape.

[Stephen_E]

You really don't have anyone who can handle locks and traps reliably. If you're stuck in a trap dungeon you're going to suffer.

Artificers get trap finding and disabling. Not quite as good as a pure Rogue trap finder (no Trap sense) but then they have magic (infusions) to back them up.

Also in my experiance once you get into the 10+ levels Wizard/Clerics magic can simply Batman past many traps (I'm not happy about this, but it is what I see).

Stephen E

[Arcane_Snowman]

b) Anyone can have tumble, and tumble shuts it down. Everything but Constructs and Undead have Fort saves, and I don't recall anything with a fort save having immunity from Nausea. :smallwink: Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Sweep, if you have the feats for it: Improved Combat Reflexes (Is from Dragon Magazine though, so the likelihood of it being allowed is substantially less)
You don't actually need your opponent to do that much, Karmic strike wants them to hit you, Robilar's Gambit wants them to try, and Defensive Sweep just wants them to stand still. With Expansion you'll have at least a reach of 10 feet.


You're missing the point. You do Flurry of Blows + 2WFing + Rapid Shot with Shuriken. It's not a choose one situation. Missed the combining of everything, carry on then.


Would be interested in the details of your build, feats ecetre. Don't know the Swift Hunter class. Swift Hunter is not a class, it is a feat, it allows Ranger and Scout levels to stack for specific benefits such as Skirmish and Favored Enemy. What you focus on is Skirmish, with Cleric's turn undead, and the Travel Devotion Domain Feat (which you can get for free if you have a Deity wit the Travel Domain) allows you to move your speed as a swift action for one minute, which means you can do a full round attack and still move the 10 ft required to activate Skirmish, with Rapid Shot etc. you'll be dealing a substantial amount of damage each turn. The added bonus of Cleric is that you will be able to cast spells like Gravestrike etc. to overcome Sneak Attack immune monsters.
The Build is: Cloistered Cleric 2/Scout 3/Ranger 15.

Edit: You have Skirmish as a 18th level Scout, Improved Skirmish to get more benefit when moving more than 20ft., Archery Feats aplenty (especially if you take the Complete Champion Spell-less Ranger Variant), you have spells like Gravestrike, Vinestrike, Golemstrike etc., Belt of Battle for a potentially explosive round.
All in all you'll be able to deal +7d6 worth of skirmish per attack.

[Tormsskull]

Just on a quick glance, your halfling should have an experience penalty for multiclassing outside his favored class. That will really mess with his abilities/ability to contribute with the rest of the group.

[AslanCross]

General thoughts on party optimization:

The party should discuss beforehand what each would like to play, and what role they'd fit. The Eberron Eyes of the Lich Queen campaign I'm in lacked this and almost got screwed via lack of options (no real ranged specialist except for a Ranger who throws a single returning sizing Xen'Drik boomerang and no buffer/healer of any kind) until I offered to play two characters (my original, a Warforged Warblade, and an Artificer). It helps if everyone's well-versed in classes and character options so everyone can make suggestions.
Of course, it's a fine line to walk: one can be too overbearing with suggestions or demand another person play this class or that.

It all boils down to consensus and awareness of power level.

[Stephen_E]

Just on a quick glance, your halfling should have an experience penalty for multiclassing outside his favored class. That will really mess with his abilities/ability to contribute with the rest of the group.

Thanks yes, I spotted that in an earlier post. If you swap out 3 monk levels for 2 Fighter levels you get faster entry into the prestige classes, +1 BAB and gain 2 extra feats, one of which goes into Rapid Shot. The +1 BAB covers the increasing of the Fluury penalty to -2.

Stephen E

[Mushroom Ninja]

Halfling - Ranger 2/Monk 5/Exotic WM 1/Master Thrower 3
Feats - Imp Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Weapon Focus - Shuriken (prereq) Point Blamk Shot (prereq) Precise Shot (prereq) Track, 2WF, Imp2WF,
Class abilities - Flurry of Blows, Close-quarters Ranged Combat (no AOO when using exotic ranged weapons) Palm Throw (throw 2 weapons with 1 attack, no Str dam) Two with One Blow (1 weapon hits 2 adjacent targets, -4 att).

Throws magical Shurikens, in particular Spell Storing, Bane, Holy and Energy. Spell Storing ones loaded with empowered (through Rod or Sudden Empower) Fireballs (including energy substitution "x"balls) Poison, Cure Serious Wounds, Buffs (casting 6 buffs in a turn has it's points sometimes) and whatever the players deem appropriate.

Primary role - Blaster, Damage dealer, combat healer (1hp damage, 3d8+11x1.5 healing per shuriken).
Secondary - Out of combat healer, Tracker, skill monkey, sneak.

Progression - 2 more levels of Master Thrower for "Weak Spot" - touch attack instead of normal attack, no str dam.


Now that's the kind of monk I respect! :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

The problem with the Dwarf build as I see it is that you're trading of the Ogre's strong "Save or Suck" for increased damage dealing (and the Monk does it better). Most of the threads about "Wizards Win" stess that at high levels it's not really about damage dealing that makes Wizards awesome in combat, it's the "Save or Lose/Suck/Die".

Well, the wizard isn't doing damage. An orthodox batman wizard seldom does. Other classes TEND to be better at it, baring extreme metamagic abuse, and a true batman wizard as TLN outlines it primarily an enabler. A great combat round for a mid level batman wizard would be to standard action Solid Fog 1-2 baddies to take them out of the fight for 1-2 rounds, or maybe a Glitterdust to blind 1-2 baddies for the fight, then move action to run up to a baddie the wizard wants dead, and then cast a Quickened Benign Transposition to swap his position with the party bruiser. This puts Smashy McSlicenchop either in full attack range, or within 5' of a full attack of 1-2 baddies, and the wizard back safely out of harms way. The wizard is DISABLING the opposition, while ENABLKING his allies. Everyone loves this kind of wizard, and it doesn't steal the show the way simply casting Finger of Death all the time often does.

Your ogre is all well and good, but I find the LA incredibly difficult for a frontliner as well, as it takes a VERY long time for that little bit of extra CON to make up for the lost class levels. MY dwarf is VERY dependant on CON, since he gets HPs, AC, and probably will saves(Steadfast Determination) from it. He's likely to have over 240 HP before raging by level 15 with just his racial +2 CON and a +6 CON neck. He also does a TON more damage than your ogre, and by that I mean 3-4 times the damage of your ogre. Dead foes take 0 actions, and this guy should be able to kill just about anything even leveled or so in one complete full attack with Flurry of Strikes AND Uncanny Blow combined with some PA and possibly Dragonfire Inspiration from the bard I mentioned.


Interesting. I'd be interested in hearing about the Dragonfire inspiration. Where does it come from? I did think a bard type was missing and that a Warchanter would be good as a 6th party member.

Not knowing the Dragonfire I can't comment directly, but INHO daggers don't have the same versatility as Shuriken for spell storing. 1 Dagger = 50 Shuriken. Sure the Shuriken get destroyed so over time they're more expensive, but with 1000 Shuriken costing the same as 20 Daggers (one rounds firing at higher levels) you simply can't afford to have 100 daggers of Spell Storing with Empowered Cure Serious Wounds.


Well, in my build, just swap Quickdraw for EWP: Shuriken. Nets you the same overall results. I wouldn't dip monk though. You lose BAB which you already can't afford much, and you can't really take too much benefit from the monk passives like wis to AC since you are trying to pump dex and cha. Bards also function as a backup batman, with access to such golden oldies as Glitterdust and Solid Fog. You could even grab the 5 levels of Master Thrower to get Palm Throw (SICK!) and make up for them using a Vest of Legends (+5 effective Bard level for determining songs) Bard7/MT3 would be a good start at level 10, finishing at Bard7/MT5 by level 12 before heading back into more Bard.

Dragonfire Inspiration is in Dragon Magic. It requires the Dragonblooded Subtype, which Glimmerskin Halfling gains at the expense of on of your minor halfling bonuses. Its all in Dragon Magic, but its too late for me to look it up atm. Regardless, it converts all of your +x/+x Inspire Courage into +xd6 fire damage. This all then gets tacked on to you Shuriken damage, and to the dwarfs Flurry attacks. That adds up a TON of damage between the 2 of them. Tack on a duel wielding Daring Outlaw or a Swift Hunter and you get TONS of bonus damage as long as everything isn't immune to fire. IC is crazy easy to buff, and you can easily get to +4/+4 by level 4, and increase that more as you level.

Lastly, I don't really like melee clerics. I dunno, maybe its just me, but having to cast 2-3 spells to get ready to melee just doesn't sit well with me. And using DMM to persist all your goodies is both highly abusive and very inviting for your DM to hit you with a number of targeted Greater Dispel Magics every day for life. I prefer a much more direct caster cleric, as I outlined in my first post. Buff a little, remove any status ailments that your party comes under, and control your foes. This again takes a lot of the spotlight away from the cleric outshining your fighter in the only thing hes good at, which, I'd love to see even a DMM persist cleric who can out damage my Flurry dwarf without taking 4 rounds to buff at the start of combat. You just don't have the feats and levels to spend on stuff like Exotic Weapon Master which increases my dwarfs damage by a TON.

Anyway, lots of posting. Going to bed. Post any comments and I'll get back in the morning.

[Arcane_Snowman]

@ Keld Denar: You do realize that Draconic Heritage changes the Dragofire Inspiration damage according to your draconic blood, Black, Copper or Green changes it to Acid, an energy type which creatures a lot less frequently are resistant or immune to.

Edit: Song of Heart from Ebberon Campaign Setting gives +1 to Inspire Courage, Word of Creation doubles it, and there are some more feats and items around to help.

[Quietus]

@ Keld Denar: You do realize that Draconic Heritage changes the Dragofire Inspiration damage according to your draconic blood, Black, Copper or Green changes it to Acid, an energy type which creatures a lot less frequently are resistant or immune to.

Edit: Song of Heart from Ebberon Campaign Setting gives +1 to Inspire Courage, Word of Creation doubles it, and there are some more feats and items around to help.

Isn't there also other Draconic Heritage options? I know someone has mentioned the use of Sonic-damage Inspiration, from.. I want to say Song Dragons? Not 100% sure.

[Arcane_Snowman]

There are dragons that have sonic as their breath weapon, which is the basis for the Draconic heritage, technically it does work, all you need is DM approval.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That Halfling Thrower should have three levels of Halfling Paragon to get +2 damage on each of those.


Batman Wizard is good, I'll second Focused Conjurer, and I'd even go so far as to suggest taking Arcane Disciple for the Lust domain to dip Mindbender and then take Thaumaturgist for a Ghaele cohort.

Cleric should have the Healing and Sun domains, with the PH2 variant for the Healing domain. Take Radiant Servant of Pelor, get a few items to boost his level for turning undead, and he'll one-shot any undead encounters unless they're so difficult that you won't even get XP for them.

I'd go for a Beguiler as the trapmonkey/skillmonkey, which also makes a good party face and secondary spellcaster. I played one at around level 10 in a mostly politics/noncombat game, and I never found myself in a situation that I didn't have a solution to. A Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus with Able Learner would also be decent, he could focus on ray spells and archery with Spell Storing arrows containing Maximized Sound Lance. Note that even applying metamagic normally to a 3rd level or lower spell doesn't disqualify it for a Spell Storing weapon unless you use Heighten, since it counts the spell's level not the spell slot it was cast from.

The melee tank could be another Cleric or a Druid, but not everyone wants to play a spellcaster. I've found that a single-classed Fighter makes a good Morningstar/Three Mountains build, though that was before their FAQ ruling on Melee Weapon Mastery not applying twice. A Dragon Shaman with Entangling Exhalation, Recover Breath, and Combat Reflexes makes an amazing battlefield controller. He can keep an entire encounter entangled, which means they can't even take a 5' step without provoking an AoO. I'd probably go for a chain tripper using Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny along with the feat Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness to get a 30' reach. You could also use a medium-size race with Deformity: Tall from Heroes of Horror, though you wouldn't get the size bonus to trip checks. Go something like Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/ Fighter 2/ Hexblade 2/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Occult Slayer 5, then whatever else seems appropriate after that.

The last character could be just about anything. Bard is a great choice, or any spellcaster would be a good contribution. Gish builds make superb damage dealers with a lot of versatility. A Psion or Psychic Warrior would be a strong choice, especially a Shaper with Personal Construct (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a), Emerald Gyre, Boost Construct, and Overchannel, plus the Vigor/Share Pain/Psicrystal loop makes him a non-liability. I'd go for my favorite character build, Hexblade 3/ Sorcerer 2/ Talon of Tiamat 5/ Spellsword 1/ Talon 5/ Spellsword 4. Use Power Attack and Arcane Strike with Wraithstrike, get Maximize Breath and Clinging Breath and your cone of acid at level 10 will deal 60+30+15+7 damage. It makes a superb melee damage dealer, and a good secondary nuker, secondary spellcaster, and secondary social skillmonkey.

When optimizing an entire party it's a good idea to pile on stacking effects. For example, if two characters have both Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) and Frightful Presence (Dra) and two more have just Frightful Presence, at least one with either Paladin of Tyranny 2+ or Blackguard 2+, opponents will have to make multiple saves with penalties or be Shaken -> Frightened -> Panicked. It works great with a Dragon Shaman spamming Entangling Exhalations since many opponents will be trying to flee and it stacks on even more penalties.

[Keld Denar]

@ Keld Denar: You do realize that Draconic Heritage changes the Dragonfire Inspiration damage according to your draconic blood, Black, Copper or Green changes it to Acid, an energy type which creatures a lot less frequently are resistant or immune to.


I'm well aware of Draconic Heritage. Unfotunately, it requires Sorc1 in order to take. Thats a 1 level dip that I don't think is optimial in this case, and thats what the exercise is about. You lose the 1 BAB, the HP, and the good reflex save for a +2 will save, Draconic Heritage, 2 spells. Granted, you could get some really awesome spells, like Benign Transposition and say....Blade of Blood which would be cool, but IMO not worth the loss of CLs, BAB, and delaying the entry into Master Thrower if chucking Shurikens is really the goal of the character.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Have you read the feat Dragontouched?