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View Full Version : Hide, /in Plain Sight, & Cloak Dance



Ditto
2008-12-29, 01:46 AM
I'm having a bit of trouble thinking through the application of Hide in fluff terms. I'm thinking just talking it out a bit will help make sense of it.

What's the deal with using Hide while on the move? You can move up to 1/2 your speed without penalty, but do you have to be hiding under a box as you shuffle along the dungeon corridor? You need something to hide behind (Cover), so that makes enough sense.

The Cloak Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance) feat grants you concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment) for spending a move action, and presumably involves the character flapping about his robes to confuse onlookers. Since you can use concealment to hide in lieu of Cover, can you slowly walk along the corridor - without cover - so long as you flap your robes around to confuse/deceive onlookers?

The Shadowdancer PrC gains Hide In Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight) with the twist that you can make a Hide check even while being observed AND even without cover - shadows of any significance will do. This is a Supernatural ability, so that one can work without stretching 'normal' suspension of disbelief like your general mobile Hide check would, in my thinking.

How necessary Cover is and the way Cloak Dance/Concealment interacts with that requirement are the real issues I'm having trouble visualizing, and matching that fluff to the proper crunch. Anyone have thoughts on what I'm rambling about?

Curmudgeon
2008-12-29, 03:17 AM
What's the deal with using Hide while on the move? You can move up to 1/2 your speed without penalty, but do you have to be hiding under a box as you shuffle along the dungeon corridor? You need something to hide behind (Cover), so that makes enough sense. You've got two options here. The first is a continuous path of cover and/or concealment; remember, either of these will allow you to use the skill, and you don't need to have just one of these throughout your movement path.

The second is the option to Move between Cover, where you can move up to your Hide ranks, in feet, through an area without cover/concealment, and still have a chance of remaining hidden. Complete Adventurer has the rules. Basically this is the option for the classic "backstab" maneuver: use existing cover/concealment, then it's just a pure exercise of skill to close the rest of the distance before they Spot you.

Cloak Dance does indeed work as you surmise. Spend a move action to cloak yourself, then spend a move action to move along while self-concealed; you can move and Hide while doing so. I'd guess the fluff is to obscure your body parts and arrange the cloak so it resembles existing patterns of whatever's around you. As it's an on-the-move sort of camouflage job, it only has to be good enough for a few seconds.

As far as Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, you don't even need shadows "of any significance" -- a blade of grass within 10' can provide a useful shadow. The significance comes from it being a Supernatural ability -- i.e., magic, as you noted. As being able to Hide under these circumstances is entirely hocus-pocus, there's no suitable fluff. Magic just works in the D&D world.

KevLar
2008-12-29, 04:24 AM
you don't even need shadows "of any significance" -- a blade of grass within 10' can provide a useful shadow.
Umm, well, technically yes, because the wording of HiPS for the Shadowdancer is :

As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow
That said, with the same reasoning, everything except total magical darkness creates shadow, even a brightly illuminated marble floor (which has minuscule cracks and pores). In real games, I'd check with the DM before attempting to hide like that. :)

Curmudgeon
2008-12-29, 05:11 AM
That said, with the same reasoning, everything except total magical darkness creates shadow, even a brightly illuminated marble floor (which has minuscule cracks and pores). In real games, I'd check with the DM before attempting to hide like that. :) Total natural darkness thwarts the Shadowdancer's ability, too, as does uniform magical lighting. In practice, if the DM doesn't want the ability to not work, they can arrange a dungeon where it's not going to work. Otherwise, HiPS is a very useful ability, but it had better be: it's extremely expensive to acquire.

Epinephrine
2008-12-29, 08:52 AM
Total natural darkness thwarts the Shadowdancer's ability, too, as does uniform magical lighting. In practice, if the DM doesn't want the ability to not work, they can arrange a dungeon where it's not going to work. Otherwise, HiPS is a very useful ability, but it had better be: it's extremely expensive to acquire.

I'm not sure I'd say "extremely" about the 1st level power of a PrC. A 10th level power, definitely.

Ditto
2008-12-29, 01:50 PM
Shadowdancer: Two wasted skill points and feats a melee rogue might have anyway? There are certainly much worse investments. And if it's perfectly naturally dark with no shadows (?), then they can't see *anyway* and a Hide check is pretty much superfluous, neh?

I like Move Between Cover, good trick. I still think sidling along the wall and flapping your cloak, subconsciously generating an SEP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somebody_Else%27s_Problem), is a fantastic mental image.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-29, 02:49 PM
I'm not sure I'd say "extremely" about the 1st level power of a PrC. A 10th level power, definately. Shadowdancer requires 23 skill ranks and 3 feats. Skill ranks are expensive to martial types, virtually precluding getting into Shadowdancer; and feats are equally precious to stealthy types. Of the 3 feats required, I'd pick none of them for a Rogue character. Dodge and Mobility together do less than what Tumble can do to keep a Rogue out of trouble; they're almost total wastes. Combat Reflexes is a feat for AoO-focused builds, and not much else.

The feats most Rogues need are Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, and Craven; these are good choices. To get into Shadowdancer at the earliest opportunity (level 8) the Rogue has to choose poor feats at levels 1, 3, and 6: all of their feats up to that point (or 3/4 if human), and none of the good feats. That makes Hide in Plain Sight an 8 level investment, not merely a 1st level dip, because getting there precludes effective development of the character.

I stand by my "extremely expensive" assessment of the cost of HiPS.

lord_khaine
2008-12-29, 02:54 PM
I stand by my "extremely expensive" assessment of the cost of HiPS.
and i will second that evaluation as long as shadowdancer is the source of HiPS.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-29, 03:03 PM
And if it's perfectly naturally dark with no shadows (?), then they can't see *anyway* and a Hide check is pretty much superfluous, neh? Gee, have you forgotten about darkvision? That works just fine in pitch blackness, but the absence of shadows keeps the Shadowdancer from being able to Hide from those who can see. Whisper Gnomes (an excellent choice for a Rogue character) have darkvision. It's great to be able to see in the dark when your enemies can, too; but it's even better to be able to Hide from them so they can't see you!

Ditto
2008-12-29, 04:45 PM
18 of those 23 ranks are ones a sneaking Rogue would have anyway, and 2 of the 5 dance ranks are necessary for Cloak Dance. It's a handy feat, since you can only move at half speed anyway sparing a move action to dance isn't usually a concern. If you're going to act, and that involves standing still, there will generally be some cover you can reach before settling down.

In perfect darkness, I suppose I'll have to rely on Cloak Dance - but working in total natural darkness isn't the norm for any campaign I've played in. If you are moving in that sort of environment, someone probably has to have a source of light, which will generate the shadows I need far enough ahead of the group to be useful.

I've never been particularly keen on feats... combat reflexes is rather a waste, granted, and mobility is also on the waste-y side. Dodge has always been a nice simple one - I've no need for Craven or Weapon Finesse, since I'll be moving into the Chameleon PrC and focusing on nasty tricks in a support role, not as a primary damage dealer. I may still pick up Improved Initiative with another of my slots, since I still have 3 to use beyond the three for Shadowdancer. Nymph's Kiss and Force of Personality are favorites as well.