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Mikeal
2008-12-29, 04:53 AM
While looking into beguilers, i came across alot of of people recommending that you go one level into the Mindbender PRC. Why?

KKL
2008-12-29, 04:55 AM
While looking into beguilers, i came across alot of of people recommending that you go one level into the Mindbender PRC. Why?

100 feet Telepathy, IIRC. I forget if it's two ways.

Mikeal
2008-12-29, 04:57 AM
How does telepathy help though?

tcrudisi
2008-12-29, 04:58 AM
Two reasons: +2 to your Fort and Will saves and Telepathy 100 feet.

The pre-req's to get in are all skills and spells that any Beguiler will have already, so you don't give up any skills, feats, or spells to get in.

The bonuses to Fort and Will are nice, but even more critical is the Telepathy. I know when I played a Beguiler, letting my party know exactly what con I was trying to pull was of the utmost importance so I would not be caught in a lie or scam. The Beguiler basically thrives on miscommunication, but for that to work, proper communication must go on with allies. That's where Telepathy comes in.

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-29, 04:58 AM
The only problem with that PrC is that it needs 4 skill ranks in Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate (I think that's it anyway), so being able to afford it may be a problem.

tcrudisi
2008-12-29, 05:00 AM
How's that a problem, Tempest? Those are critical skills for (most) Beguilers.

*edit* Just noticed the "nongood" requirement to be a Mindbender. I'm always a fan of Good characters, which explains why I didn't splash into Mindbender when I was a Beguiler. But if you are neutral or evil, this is a great PrC to splash one level in.

JackMage666
2008-12-29, 05:02 AM
Another helpful thing is delaying Advanced Learning, so you can learn Shadow Conjuration and such, if I remember correctly.

Mikeal
2008-12-29, 05:14 AM
So has telepathy got any other uses than communicating with teamates? perhaps something on the offensive?

Tempest Fennac
2008-12-29, 05:15 AM
While Sense Motive is useful, I class Intimidate as a waste of time, and I tend to only bother with Bluff or Diplomacy (I'd sooner spend skill points on other things).

Adumbration
2008-12-29, 05:36 AM
So has telepathy got any other uses than communicating with teamates? perhaps something on the offensive?

I recall seeing a feat called Mindsight used with this, but for the life of me I can't remember where it is or what it does.

EDIT: Lords of Madness, page 126. A lot like Blindsight, only better.

Ninja'd.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-29, 05:41 AM
Lords of Madness Page 126.
Detect anything within your telepathy range with an intelligence score.

Edit: how is it like blindsight but better? It's superior in every single way. Mainly because IT CAN'T BE BLOCKED OR CIRCUMVENTED, except for AMF, but that's about it.

Adumbration
2008-12-29, 05:59 AM
Lords of Madness Page 126.
Detect anything within your telepathy range with an intelligence score.

Edit: how is it like blindsight but better? It's superior in every single way. Mainly because IT CAN'T BE BLOCKED OR CIRCUMVENTED, except for AMF, but that's about it.

Like I said, like blindsight, only better. :smallwink:

Seriously, though, I only glanced it through.

Heliomance
2008-12-29, 06:07 AM
Actually, it's like blindsense but better. You still have the miss chance with mindsight. Blindsight does need LoS, whih mindsight doesn't, but blindsight actually lets you see. Mindsight just lets you detect things with an intelligence score.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-29, 06:15 AM
Yeah, but there isn't the pesky Darkstalker to circumvent you.

Heliomance
2008-12-29, 06:16 AM
Pretty sure Darkstalker explicitly circumvents everything, actually.

KevLar
2008-12-29, 08:22 AM
No, Darkstalker mentions four sensory capabilities specifically. Creatures with other abilities (like mindsight or lifesense) can perceive you just fine.

When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would

Conversely, this simple 1st-level spell says:

Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures.
... and this "such as" makes all the difference. If they wanted Darkstalker to apply to everything, they would have made it so. :)

Keld Denar
2008-12-29, 10:49 AM
Mindsight is ok for Beguilers, but is much better for Bards IMO, simply for the reason that Beguilers don't get Glitterdust on their spell list. Being able to locate invisbile or hiding creatures is cool and all, but alterting your party to their exact location so that they can kill/maim/cripple/tickle the baddie is where its all about. Granted, you DO have UMD on your spell list, so you COULD cast it from a wand or scroll. The save doesn't matter, since the save only protects you from the Blinded part, and not the -40 to hide checks part.

Just some rambling thoughts on the matter.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-29, 10:58 AM
*edit* Just noticed the "nongood" requirement to be a Mindbender. I'm always a fan of Good characters, which explains why I didn't splash into Mindbender when I was a Beguiler. But if you are neutral or evil, this is a great PrC to splash one level in.

Give in to your anger Luke, join the dark side! We've got high saves!

Blood_Lord
2008-12-29, 11:14 AM
Mindsight is ok for Beguilers, but is much better for Bards IMO, simply for the reason that Beguilers don't get Glitterdust on their spell list. Being able to locate invisbile or hiding creatures is cool and all, but alterting your party to their exact location so that they can kill/maim/cripple/tickle the baddie is where its all about. Granted, you DO have UMD on your spell list, so you COULD cast it from a wand or scroll. The save doesn't matter, since the save only protects you from the Blinded part, and not the -40 to hide checks part.

Beguilers do have Glitterdust on their spell list. And they get it before Bards.

So yeah, not even close.

Keld Denar
2008-12-29, 11:45 AM
Buh wha? That'll teach me to post without consulting the rules. I concede the point then. Mindbender is a great dip for Beguilers, because of their ability to detect and reveil invisibile foes, and the fact that it delays Advanced Learning to a level that allows Beguilers to pick up higher level spells like Shadow Conjouration, etc.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-12-29, 11:53 AM
Lords of Madness Page 126.
Detect anything within your telepathy range with an intelligence score.

Edit: how is it like blindsight but better? It's superior in every single way. Mainly because IT CAN'T BE BLOCKED OR CIRCUMVENTED, except for AMF, but that's about it.

It can be blocked by Mind Blank (as it blocks the telepathy), but that's about it.