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View Full Version : Knowledge (Arcana) - Is it necessary?



supermrjmt
2008-12-29, 06:30 PM
Ok, so I'm planning out my illusion-slinging gnomish sorcerer/virtuoso (I call it a diet-bard). I was wondering if I should spend my remaining skill points in Sleight of Hand for the skill tricks Conceal Spellcasting and False Theurgy from the Complete Scoundrel (useful for any Illusionist) or place them into Knowledge (Arcana) for, well, mainly epic spells.

I'm leaning more toward the skill tricks at the moment, however I really have no knowledge concerning the importance of epic spells. Do all mages take them? Are they necessary for epic-level dungeons? Are they worth the time and feats?

By the way, I'm pretty sure our campaign will be going past level 21... our DM has been bragging about how he purchased a new epic-level adventure. Assuming he doesn't intend to turn it into a shrine in his room, I think it's for us.

Anyway, what do you think? Put points into Sleight of Hand for skill tricks or Knowledge (Arcana) for epic spells?

Eldariel
2008-12-29, 06:43 PM
On Epic, it's necessary for Epic Spells. There's no excuse not to have it; Epic Spells are the single most powerful thing in D&D available to PCs short of infinite X comboes and divine ascension (so the most powerful things allowed in a normal game). Also, Knowledges are some of the most useful skills in the game as they're constantly and randomally applicable (simpliest being discerning monsters, more obscure being knowing the location of some objects or identifying items or recalling some particular piece of lore about some person or so on; information is half the fight).

My suggestion? Get Sleight of Hand, but take it from some other skill. Knowledge (Arcana) is really necessary on epic (before it, it's merely extremely useful). Sleight of Hand is a great, very underestimated (or underhyped anyways) skill with lots of applications, but it's got nothing on epic spells. Epic spells, among others, allow you to gain insane bonuses to skills (how does +50 Con sound?), become immune to all non-epic magic (including Anti-Magic Field), create wards that stop certain spells from going off, etc. Basically, epic spells win D&D, and considering that you can't win D&D, that's quite the feat.

supermrjmt
2008-12-29, 06:49 PM
On Epic, it's necessary for Epic Spells. There's no excuse not to have it; Epic Spells are the single most powerful thing in D&D available to PCs short of infinite X comboes and divine ascension (so the most powerful things allowed in a normal game). Also, Knowledges are some of the most useful skills in the game as they're constantly and randomally applicable (simpliest being discerning monsters, more obscure being knowing the location of some objects or identifying items or recalling some particular piece of lore about some person or so on; information is half the fight).

My suggestion? Get Sleight of Hand, but take it from some other skill. Knowledge (Arcana) is really necessary on epic (before it, it's merely extremely useful). Sleight of Hand is a great, very underestimated (or underhyped anyways) skill with lots of applications, but it's got nothing on epic spells. Epic spells, among others, allow you to gain insane bonuses to skills (how does +50 Con sound?), become immune to all non-epic magic (including Anti-Magic Field), create wards that stop certain spells from going off, etc. Basically, epic spells win D&D, and considering that you can't win D&D, that's quite the feat.

I would try to get both, however the other skills I have are Concentration (can't give that up), Spellcraft (that either), Diplomacy (need for PrC), and Perform (need for music). I don't really know what to give up...

Edit: Oh, we also have a blaster-type wizard who maxed out a ton of Knowledge skills. The reason is mainly for epic spells.

Eldariel
2008-12-29, 07:03 PM
Can't you get bit more Int?

supermrjmt
2008-12-29, 07:05 PM
Can't you get bit more Int?

I already have a 16, and I'm a sorcerer. :smalltongue:

Str: 6
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 18

32 point buy

Eldariel
2008-12-29, 07:07 PM
Ah, right. Well, that puts a damper on things. Just stop taking Diplo once you enter the PrC? That gets you some points. Buy a Tome of Clear Thought +2 (the Int-book) around level 14? That'd get you some extra points to work with too, and is rather trivial for your total money count as you're going epic and have insane wealth.

Remmirath
2008-12-29, 07:15 PM
Epic spells aren't necessary. They are worth it (or at least, I like them; they're fun to make up and all), but if you play your cards right, you can be just as effective with non-epic spells. If nothing else, an epic caster can only ever get off two spells per round, while a non-epic caster can get a whole heck of a lot more, and with the right metamagic feats (particularly things like Intensify Spell, Multispell, and ... ah, forget the name right now, the one that lets you add damage dice on) they can be about as damaging. If you take Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity a bunch of times you can get your DCs up pretty high, too.

Of course, you're playing a sorcerer, and I don't know what your DM says on the whole sorcerers/metamagic thing. In my group we always have it that sorcerers can do any metamagic, they just don't get bonus metamagic feats. I don't actually recall the rulebook definition, though (we have a lot of house rules).

If you've already got an epic-blaster type in the party you might want to go for the Sleight of Hand, if that's what you like, and go with non-epic spells. Unless I'm remembering things very wrong, Spellcraft is the main thing necessary for epic spells anyhow (it's what the DCs are and all), so you could always take a bunch of Knowledge ranks later. I believe you always need less Knowledge than you need Spellcraft.

I suppose you could also take your wisdom down to 6, if your point buy works like that, and get a few more skill points.

supermrjmt
2008-12-29, 07:21 PM
Epic spells aren't necessary. They are worth it (or at least, I like them; they're fun to make up and all), but if you play your cards right, you can be just as effective with non-epic spells. If nothing else, an epic caster can only ever get off two spells per round, while a non-epic caster can get a whole heck of a lot more, and with the right metamagic feats (particularly things like Intensify Spell, Multispell, and ... ah, forget the name right now, the one that lets you add damage dice on) they can be about as damaging. If you take Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity a bunch of times you can get your DCs up pretty high, too.

Of course, you're playing a sorcerer, and I don't know what your DM says on the whole sorcerers/metamagic thing. In my group we always have it that sorcerers can do any metamagic, they just don't get bonus metamagic feats. I don't actually recall the rulebook definition, though (we have a lot of house rules).

If you've already got an epic-blaster type in the party you might want to go for the Sleight of Hand, if that's what you like, and go with non-epic spells. Unless I'm remembering things very wrong, Spellcraft is the main thing necessary for epic spells anyhow (it's what the DCs are and all), so you could always take a bunch of Knowledge ranks later. I believe you always need less Knowledge than you need Spellcraft.

I suppose you could also take your wisdom down to 6, if your point buy works like that, and get a few more skill points.

The DM was okay with me taking Metamagic Specialist from the PH2 (can cast metamagic spells without increased casting a couple of times per day) instead of having a familiar.

To get the Epic Spellcasting feat you need 24 Spellcraft and 24 Knowledge (Arcana), and Knowledge (Arcana) also determines how many you can cast.

Eldariel
2008-12-29, 07:22 PM
Relvinar: You can do so much ridiculous stuff with epic spells that one Multispell doesn't even nearly measure up. Dealing damage isn't a good use of those spells; you can deal more damage with non-epic spells. No, the epic spellcasting system doesn't WANT you to deal damage. It wants you to buff your abilities up to the stratosphere, to become invulnerable, to stop others from acting, to set up eternal contingencies, etc. They're much better at making everything others do trivial than they are at killing people (your non-epic spells are plenty to kill people without epic spell defenses and you'll need more than just epic offensive spells [since you'd only have 2 per day] to beat epic spell defenses).

olentu
2008-12-29, 07:34 PM
I think the most common trick with epic offensive spells is to make them a permanent duration dischargable spell that when discharged has the effect you really wanted. In this way spells can be saved over from days when you do not use all your epic slots.

Remmirath
2008-12-30, 02:37 AM
Relvinar: You can do so much ridiculous stuff with epic spells that one Multispell doesn't even nearly measure up. Dealing damage isn't a good use of those spells; you can deal more damage with non-epic spells. No, the epic spellcasting system doesn't WANT you to deal damage. It wants you to buff your abilities up to the stratosphere, to become invulnerable, to stop others from acting, to set up eternal contingencies, etc. They're much better at making everything others do trivial than they are at killing people (your non-epic spells are plenty to kill people without epic spell defenses and you'll need more than just epic offensive spells [since you'd only have 2 per day] to beat epic spell defenses).

Ah, right. I got so used to our house rules I forgot about that. We rather severely limit the buffing and so forth (as in, at most +15 to ability scores, at most +20 to AC, deflecting at most 10 attacks, limiting the DR - keeping in mind that this is 50th+ level, since I realise that doesn't seem very limited otherwise).
So yeah. With that in mind, there is truth in that.

dspeyer
2008-12-30, 02:46 AM
Doesn't Virtuoso get 6+int skills? Assuming your starting level is well into the PrC, that should give you enough to max out knowledge and sleight-of-hand with ranks left over.

Prometheus
2008-12-30, 02:56 AM
Knowledge (Arcana) is also used for qualifying for some prestige classes and the incantations optional rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm).

Like other knowledge skills, it can provide valuable plot information outside of combat. This being the case, it means that you are neither responsible nor obligated to be that person, but if you feel like the DM will incorporate the skill enough that you won't waste it, it is a great investment.

Fizban
2008-12-30, 03:22 AM
Random note: you don't need a skill trick to hide your spellcasting with sleight of hand, see the Rules Compendium.

Epic spells win DnD, and are practically neccesary for epic (though I could see low epic till 30 going without). Epic monsters start being immune to everything, and if your party doesn't do the same, you're screwed: epic spells make you immune to everything. They are indeed the most powerful thing aside from infinite loops, and when you infinite loop them they're the most powerful thing before Pun Pun. It's not like you have anything else worth spending your millions of gp on, epic items don't hold a candle to epic spells.