Star Wars KOTOR

[Jimp]

After hearing about how good this game is I finally got a copy of KOTOR 1 and started playing today.
Freaking wow.
I'm not much into star wars but the game just absorbed me into the setting so quickly and so well. I'm only a few hours in and have spent a chunk of time dilly dallying and exploring but it's so much fun. There are plenty of choices to make all the time too, which I'm loving. Variation in characters is wonderful too. I'm going solo at the moment since the first party member is a bit too good for my liking. I'm playing a slightly ruthless scout specialising in single handed pistols. I love the feat that gives bonuses for 1 weapon style, which has always been my favourite for these kind of characters. I'm loving the game on a whole.
What does everyone else think of it?

[Moonshadow]

My advice? Don't spend too long as a scout, Jedi is way better.

So basically, rush through the first planet as fast as you can.

Oh, and always use HK-47, he's the best, and has hilarious lines too.

[Flickerdart]

Oh man, KotOR. Good times.

Yeah, HK-47 is one of the best characters. Jedi are, though, much better than any of the base classes, but a Scoundrel is a good base choice, since you'll get Sneak Attack damage on flanks. Drop the gun spec as soon as you get lightsabers: Lightsaber throw and force powers are much better than blasters. There's single-wield bonuses for lightsabers as well, so you can keep doing your thing.

Also, what? How is Carth too good? He's sucked every time I played through the game...

[wojonatior]

amazing game and jade empire is extremely similar if you wanted to look into that.

[Da King]

Loved this game. One of the best force powers to take was always force fighting and It's upgraded versions, clears a room really fast, and you can use it many, many, times.

I only ever played the Scoundrel class, but it seems like sneak attacks are really hard to get. Am I doing something wrong?

[Juhn]

Also, what? How is Carth too good? He's sucked every time I played through the game...

I think he means "stuck-up", overly idealistic, or rather too light-sided for his tastes.

[Philistine]

@Flickerdart: I think he meant that Carth is too much of a do-gooder for his taste.

@ Da King: It's not just you. I never had much luck setting up Sneak Attacks in KotOR.

[tyckspoon]

@Flickerdart: I think he meant that Carth is too much of a do-gooder for his taste.

@ Da King: It's not just you. I never had much luck setting up Sneak Attacks in KotOR.

I'm not sure I ever actually Sneak Attacked anything until after I was a Jedi, at which point Force Stun/Fear takes care of the setup for you. KoToR2 is a lot more forgiving about it, although mostly because you can start leveling as a Jedi and you get other Jedi party members much sooner..

[warty goblin]

Liked the characters, setting, pretty much everything but the gameplay. Actually hold that, the gameplay wasn't bad, the bit where I couldn't take a turn down the freaking block without somebody trying to give me a blaster colonoscopy is what really got to me. I mean the combat was decent, but I mostly found it a hindrence to actually playing the interesting parts of the game.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Awesome game! I dug out my old copy during Holiday Break, and I'm almost through it again. I'll admit, I'm letting Fallout 3 distract me, but KOTOR is thoroughly one of the greats.

I personally find HK-47 freakin' hilarious, but not really the best gun in the group. That would have to be Carth. You coupled with Carth and Zaalbar make an unstoppable team. If you like playing Light Side, of course, which I do.:smallbiggrin:

[Remmirath]

It is indeed an awesome game.

The first time I played through I made the mistake of trying to level up as much as I possibly could as a Scout, and get as good as I could with a blaster, poured all my stat increases into dex and con, and, needless to say, had a very broken Jedi by the end.

I like to play as a Dark Side Consular typically, so I usually take some muscle along with me from the NPCs. Canderous is a must, in my opinion, and I usually throw on HK-47. I can't stand Carth (he just annoys me), so I never take him anywhere, though I admit he's actually one of the better fighters you get.
I only actually played through Light Side once. I don't actually even remember who I took with me then.

[SilentNight]

Such a good game, oh how I miss it. :smallsigh: Sneak attacks are fairly easy, especially once you go consular with stasis field, dual-blasters and sneak attack. :smallbiggrin: Sooooo much fun. I played through it a couple of times on both sides using different characters. I have to say the two-blaster light side was my favorite. On the other hand I managed to beat the game at level 17 with a single-saber dark-side guardian.

[Xenogears]

My advice? Don't spend too long as a scout, Jedi is way better.

So basically, rush through the first planet as fast as you can.

Oh, and always use HK-47, he's the best, and has hilarious lines too.

Actually as long as you dont actually assign the stat points and stuff you can gain as many levels as you want and once you become a jedi all the levels count as Jedi levels so this allows you to be a lvl 1 Scout Lvl 19 Jedi. I managed to do everything in the first planet (and all the bonus stuff) at lvl 1 so it is possible. Just make sure Auto level is never on and whenever it tells you you leveld up just ignore it. Stay at lvl 1 for your main but everyone else can level up normally.

[late for dinner]

This is my favorite game ever. I was a level 7ish Scoundral/13 jedi guardian. Light side. I used Bastila as much as I could and Big Z. I put as much as I could into Dex and Int and Dual Wielded everything. It was fun watching my guy Dodge lazers and Trust me when I say, Take the Anti-Droid force power as much as possible. IT is worth it...and funny

[Philistine]

Actually as long as you dont actually assign the stat points and stuff you can gain as many levels as you want and once you become a jedi all the levels count as Jedi levels so this allows you to be a lvl 1 Scout Lvl 19 Jedi. I managed to do everything in the first planet (and all the bonus stuff) at lvl 1 so it is possible. Just make sure Auto level is never on and whenever it tells you you leveld up just ignore it. Stay at lvl 1 for your main but everyone else can level up normally.

Do you mean level 2 base class and level 18 Jedi? The game forces you to level up at one point on the Endar Spire - after you clear the bridge, the next door will not open unless you've levelled up. I dimly recall talk of a bug in the XBox version that could allow you to bypass that (possibly at the risk of some sort of wackiness down the road), but it was corrected in the PC version.

Anyway, the saving up levels idea works very nicely for some class combos, but isn't so necessary for others. If you're going through with Soldier/Guardian, for example, additional Soldier levels don't hurt you much - there are only a handful of powers you'll actually need, and the Soldier levels are just as good as Jedi Guardian levels for advancing your attack bonus and HP, plus Soldier gives you extra feats. So Soldier7-8/Guardian 13-12 is perfectly reasonable. If you're going for a Jedi Consular, OTOH, you'll want as many Jedi levels as possible in order to get the maximum numbers of Force points and Force Powers - but if you start out as a Scoundrel, some fights (especially solo fights like Bendak, and Bastila's rescue) will be more difficult as a lower-level character just because you don't have the HP to take a hit.

My personal favorite character was a skillmonkey: Scoundrel5/Sentinel15. He could handle all his own lockpicking, repairing, and minesweeping, with enough left over to be one persuasive son of a Jedi as well.

[Bergett]

My advice? Don't spend too long as a scout, Jedi is way better.

So basically, rush through the first planet as fast as you can.

Oh, and always use HK-47, he's the best, and has hilarious lines too.

AHhh KOTOR good times... But you know why that is right? Since you have to be a jedi they make it so the only way to win is if you make your character melee based which is kinda frustrating. But Oh well. Don't rush through Taris because you'll be sad after you did because it al gets boring when you hit Dantoine ...

[MeatShield#236]

Ahhh... KOTOR, one of best games I have ever played. HK-47 is the funniest character by far, and one of the most unique. I mean, where else do you get a crazy assasin droid who politely asks permission to blow someones head off? "Can I blast the meatbag now, master?" Hilarious.

[Remmirath]

AHhh KOTOR good times... But you know why that is right? Since you have to be a jedi they make it so the only way to win is if you make your character melee based which is kinda frustrating. But Oh well. Don't rush through Taris because you'll be sad after you did because it al gets boring when you hit Dantoine ...

Yeah, Dantooine is my least favourite world of all. It has one or two good points, but it's mostly pretty dull.

Melee combat is one of the better ways to go, but I at least find that is you've got a really good (Dark Side, anyhow) Consular it's actually easier. If you start going crazy with Force Storm and Death Field and you've got a couple of tanks to back you up, you'll be fine.

Oh, and actually, I know my brother played through the game still being ranged even though he was a Jedi. It was wierd, but it worked pretty well for him. So it can be done. I wouldn't recommend it, though...

My only gripe with the game is that I think the level cap is just a little bit low, because I've hit it every time before I've finished the last planet. I think the level cap should usually be at least a little bit hard to hit. That's pretty minor, though.

[Oregano]

The Level cap was because that's where the levels cap in the Star Wars tabletop RPG, which is what KOTOR's based off.

Being a guardian with force jump really helps you get sneak attacks as well.

[Gaelbert]

Do you mean level 2 base class and level 18 Jedi? The game forces you to level up at one point on the Endar Spire - after you clear the bridge, the next door will not open unless you've levelled up. I dimly recall talk of a bug in the XBox version that could allow you to bypass that (possibly at the risk of some sort of wackiness down the road), but it was corrected in the PC version.

Anyway, the saving up levels idea works very nicely for some class combos, but isn't so necessary for others. If you're going through with Soldier/Guardian, for example, additional Soldier levels don't hurt you much - there are only a handful of powers you'll actually need, and the Soldier levels are just as good as Jedi Guardian levels for advancing your attack bonus and HP, plus Soldier gives you extra feats. So Soldier7-8/Guardian 13-12 is perfectly reasonable. If you're going for a Jedi Consular, OTOH, you'll want as many Jedi levels as possible in order to get the maximum numbers of Force points and Force Powers - but if you start out as a Scoundrel, some fights (especially solo fights like Bendak, and Bastila's rescue) will be more difficult as a lower-level character just because you don't have the HP to take a hit.

My personal favorite character was a skillmonkey: Scoundrel5/Sentinel15. He could handle all his own lockpicking, repairing, and minesweeping, with enough left over to be one persuasive son of a Jedi as well.

I did a scoundrel 2/consular 18. Bendak was the only fight that was a problem, but I just spammed grenades and got through fine. Oh, and the fight when you have to kill that one gang leader and get rescue Bastila can be difficult, but I ran off in a corner and let Bastila do the dirty work. I think.

[Jimp]

I don't really want to have to switch to melee as a Jedi since I like playing with blasters, even if it is sub optimal :smallwink:

[Talya]

Best. RPG. Story. Ever.

And singularly responsible for me not despising everything Star Wars, after the mockery Lucas made of the franchise with his prequel trilogy.

[Jimp]

After some initial resistance I have embraced the Jedi class. Mainly because running around with a lightsabre is so cool. This game just gets better.

[Bergett]

I don't really want to have to switch to melee as a Jedi since I like playing with blasters, even if it is sub optimal :smallwink:

It's still possible... you just can't kill sith by yourself.
Like I made it through 2/3 of the game using blasters.

EDIT: (F****** ninja posts....)
^that works too I guess...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Best. RPG. Story. Ever.

And singularly responsible for me not despising everything Star Wars, after the mockery Lucas made of the franchise with his prequel trilogy.

I concur. I especially like the Leviathan level, when the big reveal is pulled on you. Best twist since we learned the truth about Luke's father!

But...I liked the prequels. I don't understand why everyone's telling me I'm supposed to hate them. They're not as good as the original trilogy, yes, but I still enjoyed them.

[Jimp]

I concur. I especially like the Leviathan level, when the big reveal is pulled on you. Best twist since we learned the truth about Luke's father!

But...I liked the prequels. I don't understand why everyone's telling me I'm supposed to hate them. They're not as good as the original trilogy, yes, but I still enjoyed them.

As far as I know a lot of hate comes from the medichlorines scandal, which put the force down to some chemical you may have in your body, rather than a supernatural force that acts on all things. It kind of spoiled the wonder of the force.
I liked the 3rd prequel to be honest. The fights+war in the second one rocked too, though I don't remember much else about it. The first one annoyed me a whole lot, though mainly for completely superfluous reasons. Namely That Damn Kid! and jar jar and co.

[OldSchoolGamer7]

I still love both of these games. The first one gets old some times (I like the styling of the HUD in TSL better,) but I think I'm going to spend next weekend immersing myself in it completely. Usually, I turn off the movies and blast through the dialogue, but I have never played it through as a cinematic thing past Taris. There are also a lot of sidequests on Taris I never bother to do because I always store my levels after 4 (5 if I go Scoundrel, but I prefer Soldier for the extra feat or Scout for free first-level implants and free Flurry.) It sounds like I need to take a nice lightsider through again to do it.

On the subject of Carth, I don't mind him that much only if I go with the goodguys. I'm a big mod guy; I'll also save levels and use the Make Carth a Jedi mod to improve his usefulness.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Mods like that just break the versimilitude for me. Sure, Jedi are awesome, but Star Wars isn't all about the Jedi. I mean, Han Solo's had a whole series of books dedicated to him and his exploits and he's about as far from a Jedi as you can possibly get.

[Athaniar]

Time to give my usual opinion: KotOR is positively awesome, KotOR2 is, well, if KotOR is a pizza, KotOR is a rock with moldy tomato sauce on top, and TOR will also be positively awesome. Also, HK47 = best videogame character ever.

[Talya]

Time to give my usual opinion: KotOR is positively awesome, KotOR2 is, well, if KotOR is a pizza, KotOR is a rock with moldy tomato sauce on top, and TOR will also be positively awesome. Also, HK47 = best videogame character ever.

KotOR2 was okay right up until the point where you left for Malachor V...which seemed to come out of the blue, and provide no resolution at all. (In actuality, Obsidian was forced by Lucasarts to release the game about 6 months earlier than they needed to finish it. All the dialogue that would have actually fleshed out the story, as well as an entirely new unused area was already recorded and is on the disc. The Sith Lords Restoration Project by Team Gizka has been working on putting it all back together...very slowly, to the point that I doubt they'll ever finish. Fortunately, you can play build 8 of their beta which was leaked online and is available on several torrent sites. I won't link them due to the distaste some people have for torrent trackers, but it's entirely legal in this case --Team Gizka holds no copyright on their restoration project, so ultimately cannot dictate what people do with it. Just go to the world's biggest bittorrent tracking site and type in TSLRP and you can download build 8 of their project. It's somewhat buggy, but very worth a playthrough.)

[SITB]

KotOR2 was okay right up until the point where you left for Malachor V...which seemed to come out of the blue, and provide no resolution at all. (In actuality, Obsidian was forced by Lucasarts to release the game about 6 months earlier than they needed to finish it. All the dialogue that would have actually fleshed out the story, as well as an entirely new unused area was already recorded and is on the disc.
<snip>

If you want just the story with most of the content (rather then wait for the Sith Restortion Mod), then check out this excellent LP (http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/) here that reveals and comments on much of the background of the game while showing most of the cut content.

[OldSchoolGamer7]

STIB, that's nice. I never saw the end of the tutorial level because, if I did play it, I would wind up skipping it after getting everything because you could keep it that way. Thanks; this gives me something to do today.

[SITB]

A small incentive to read the LP:

http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2046/img-6.jpg
http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2046/img-7.jpg

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I actually liked KOTOR II, despite its flaws. I thought it had a philosophical depth that was only touched upon in KOTOR. That said, the story was harder to follow in some parts because of the gaps.

[Remmirath]

Yeah. It's still fun, and I like the atmosphere. The broken quests and so forth are a bit odd, but I think it's definitely still worth playing.

[Trazoi]

I'm still waiting for that Sith Restoration Mod. The rushed nature of KoTOR 2 meant the finished product felt like they'd taken potentially one of the best RPG of all time and repeatedly smashed it with a hammer. If the restoration mod fixes it the way I think it should be fixed, then KoTOR 2 will be three times as good as the excellent KoTOR 1. As it currently is, it's just too painful to play such an horribly unfinished gem.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'd be willing to delve back into it again, if Fallout 3 wasn't taking up all of my spare time.

While the unfinished quests and stuff do leave a feeling of incompleteness, and a lot of unanswered questions, somehow I feel like that enhances the overall atmosphere somewhat. In KOTOR I, everything tied together nicely, and it gave a feeling that you were the center of the universe. The big mover and shaker. Everything's crap until you show up and fix it or everything's fine until you show up and wreck it.

In KOTOR II, however, you don't get all the answers, and you feel more like one small figure in a great big galaxy, and you're only making small changes, and minor victories, while the greater mysteries still remain unanswered, and you yourself are unlikely to find them.

I know that wasn't the intent, but that's the feel I got from playing it. In KOTOR I, you were a big shot all the way. In KOTOR II, you're more like a nobody (as much as the "last of the Jedi" can be a nobody).

[Pronounceable]

I insist that KotoR2 is better than KotoR even as an unfinished beta. Really, merely the completed first half is better than most RPGs. KotoR is nothing but your obvious trilogy homage (aka ripoff), where KotoR2 is an interesting look into the whole SW concept.Subliminal Statement: Go read the LP of KotoR2 meatbags.

And Lucas be damned: Revan is darksided female.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sez you. Revan's lightsided male, regardless of whether or not canon supports it.

But we could fight about that all day long. (http://generalvyse.deviantart.com/art/revan-from-KOTOR-29489835)

[Om]

I insist that KotoR2 is better than KotoR even as an unfinished beta. Really, merely the completed first half is better than most RPGs. KotoR is nothing but your obvious trilogy homage (aka ripoff), where KotoR2 is an interesting look into the whole SW conceptPretty much agreed. KotOR was a very good game by any standard but the sequel really turned the whole Star Wars light/dark morality system on its head... or at least came at it from a novel angle

Where I do fault KotOR2 however is that its too much of a ripoff of the original game. I get the impression, and I read an interview somewhere that pretty much confirmed my suspicions, that Obsidian approached this project with the intention of doing a "bigger, better" KotOR. If the original had four main planets then the sequel would match that. I see your Taris and I'll raise you one Telos. And so on. Not all the blame lies with LucasArts for the rushed release - poor project planning and over ambition on the part of the developers also has to be blamed

And depressingly enough, I was eagerly expecting the Team Gizka restoration mod this time last year...

(Revan is female)

[OldSchoolGamer7]

I'm going to settle this, once and for all...it doesn't matter if Revan was male or female...the only thing that matters is that Darth Revan rides again at the end.

[Philistine]

It's true that the Obsidian team were overly ambitious in their planning, and bit off more than they could reasonably chew in the allotted time. But Lucas Arts also pushed the deadline forward by several months in the middle of the project. If you have too much time on your hands one day, you can go back through the 2004 archives of gaming news sites and see the abrupt transition in the KotOR2 previews - as late as October 2004 they were still hyping the game as "Coming in Spring of 2005;" but in November that suddenly changed to "Coming this Holiday Season."

But since LA was the publisher, all those "Spring 2005" previews were coming from LA's marketing team - meaning the deadline snafu almost certainly wasn't a miscommunication between LA and OE. So it seems clear that sometime in late 2004 - just after the expected midpoint of the development cycle - someone at LA called down to OE and basically said, "Screw it. Ship now with whatever you've already got." Whether that decision was due to simple greed (to get the game into stores for the holidays), or cold feet (Star Wars is a very black-and-white IP in general; KotOR2 is rather less so), or something else entirely, I have no idea; but the sequence of events can be inferred fairly easily from LA's own marketing campaign for the game.

[Sequinox]

Oh man, KotOR. Good times.

Yeah, HK-47 is one of the best characters. Jedi are, though, much better than any of the base classes, but a Scoundrel is a good base choice, since you'll get Sneak Attack damage on flanks. Drop the gun spec as soon as you get lightsabers: Lightsaber throw and force powers are much better than blasters. There's single-wield bonuses for lightsabers as well, so you can keep doing your thing.

Also, what? How is Carth too good? He's sucked every time I played through the game...

Really? Wow. Last playthrough, my Carth was my best character. 2 Mandalorian heavy blasters, modified to do insane damage, every shooting power maxed, and then I'd just have him use Master Rapid Shot until monster x is dead.

[Bergett]

Carth was always a safe bet for me.

[Trazoi]

It's true that the Obsidian team were overly ambitious in their planning, and bit off more than they could reasonably chew in the allotted time. But Lucas Arts also pushed the deadline forward by several months in the middle of the project.

...rest of quote spoilered for length...
If you have too much time on your hands one day, you can go back through the 2004 archives of gaming news sites and see the abrupt transition in the KotOR2 previews - as late as October 2004 they were still hyping the game as "Coming in Spring of 2005;" but in November that suddenly changed to "Coming this Holiday Season."

But since LA was the publisher, all those "Spring 2005" previews were coming from LA's marketing team - meaning the deadline snafu almost certainly wasn't a miscommunication between LA and OE. So it seems clear that sometime in late 2004 - just after the expected midpoint of the development cycle - someone at LA called down to OE and basically said, "Screw it. Ship now with whatever you've already got." Whether that decision was due to simple greed (to get the game into stores for the holidays), or cold feet (Star Wars is a very black-and-white IP in general; KotOR2 is rather less so), or something else entirely, I have no idea; but the sequence of events can be inferred fairly easily from LA's own marketing campaign for the game.
I remember hunting down some of the details when making a post about the game shortly after release. My memory is a little faded, but I think Obsidian originally did sign up for the November release. They were aiming for something along the lines of a 14 month development cycle, which is ludicrously short for an RPG even if you've already got the engine. After spending some months writing and planning the thing it must have been clear the game they were wanting to make was too ambitious - they cut a whole planet (the droid planet) in the middle of development - so they must have asked for more time. I didn't notice the official marketing dates from Lucasarts at the time, but it was very clear from what Obsidian was saying in the latter half of development that they were extremely confident they had until the middle of 2005 to finish the game.

My strong hunch is that someone with power within Lucasarts figured they didn't have enough out for Christmas that year, and so forced KoTOR 2 onto the market. Obsidian as the developer would have had very little say in it, and the only reason I could see them being happy with the game in the state it was release was if they were temporarily crazy due to overwork. But the main reason I blame Lucasarts rather than Obsidian for the state of KoTOR 2 was that Lucasarts was the one who controlled the QA for the game. And there is no way I can believe any QA department worth their salt approving the state of the game as it was shipped. Something must have caused Lucasarts to bypass the whole QA system.

As you can tell, I'm still a bit bitter about the whole thing. :smallsmile: Lucasarts was my favourite game company back in the nineties, and it was just sad seeing them do such a completely boneheaded business move like this. There's no way I'm touching any further KoTOR games, not unless everyone who plays it states that it's the greatest (by which time said game will be in the bargain bin anyway).

[Ehra]

I actually liked KOTOR II, despite its flaws. I thought it had a philosophical depth that was only touched upon in KOTOR. That said, the story was harder to follow in some parts because of the gaps.

You owe it to yourself to find a copy of Planescape Torment if you haven't already played it. By far the best story in any video game out there.

As for KOTOR I/II.... I'd say they lose out to every other Bioware/Obsidian game I've played but are still absolutely great games.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've wanted to play Planescape: Torment for years, but I can't get my paws on a copy of it, and I doubt it'd work on either of my computers.:smallfrown:

[Tom_Violence]

Time to give my usual opinion: KotOR is positively awesome, KotOR2 is, well, if KotOR is a pizza, KotOR is a rock with moldy tomato sauce on top, and TOR will also be positively awesome. Also, HK47 = best videogame character ever.

I really couldn't agree less. KotOR Numero Uno is a very good RPG, and particularly notable for being a Star Wars game that doesn't suck (not that all Star Wars games suck, just that a lot do). But the story line was pretty bland and the characters fairly uninteresting (even without Darth 'Who Stole My Monocle' Malak). The sequel, however, was a master stroke of writing that actually did something facinating with the Star Wars universe, rather than try and squeeze just a little more blood out of the 'light side good, dark side bad' banality that it so often is.

The MMO that Bioware is working on will probably make me cut my own head off in disappiontment, and HK47 was once hilarious but his appearances in popular gaming culture these days are about asa prolific as most internet memes, and almost as welcome.

[Joran]

But the story line was pretty bland and the characters fairly uninteresting (even without Darth 'Who Stole My Monocle' Malak). The sequel, however, was a master stroke of writing that actually did something facinating with the Star Wars universe, rather than try and squeeze just a little more blood out of the 'light side good, dark side bad' banality that it so often is.

Right, but I like Star Wars for its fantasy type good vs. evil story. I was pretty much engrossed in KotOR 1 and loved my character. I was happily ruling over the galaxy with my trusted assistant by my side and then... uh, I left, for reasons unknown. That kind of irked me. Then apparently, my character in canon is male and light-side which irked me also. Why bother letting me have decisions when you're bound to overrule them?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Right, but I like Star Wars for its fantasy type good vs. evil story. I was pretty much engrossed in KotOR 1 and loved my character. I was happily ruling over the galaxy with my trusted assistant by my side and then... uh, I left, for reasons unknown. That kind of irked me. Then apparently, my character in canon is male and light-side which irked me also. Why bother letting me have decisions when you're bound to overrule them?

That isn't true. You get to choose what was Revan at the beginning of Kotor2.
It's just that, for timeline's sake, they had to choose one path over the other when it comes to non-player interference. They have done it in Jedi Knight, in Jedi Academy, and in all game you have to make a choice.

And I have to say, I prefer to see Star Wars less of a way of Good Vs Evil simplistic dichotomy. There is nothing that ever said that you have to be evil to use the Dark Side, and that you have to be good to be a Jedi. It's not a Paladin vs Blackguard decisions.

Look at the Jedi. outside of a video game, they seem to try to avoid using their power. I think being Force sensitive is a mix of a blessing and a curse, and the Path of the Jedi is aimed to help the people find a proper inner balance, to prevent yourself from becoming megalomaniac and egocentric. They avoid using their power when possible (which was the whole point of the book "Vision of the Future". Luke's overabuse of the Force was what led him and his student to initially be corrupted by the Force, and were destroyed). When you rely too much on the Force, it controls you. Which was also Kreia's grudge against it.

Malak = Imbalance. You live by the stuff, you abuse it. It comes to your head, and you act as you will, without consideration.
Revan (before and after Kotor1) controlled the Dark Side, but seemed to be careful in his weilding of the stuff. He was a pure genius, filled with self-discipline. I think that's how he saw the flaws in the teachings of the Jedi.

I think that at the time, Jedis were more about teaching merely how to use your powers, and less about inner stability. Which is why so many of them became rampaging megalomaniac.

I don't think you have to be a blackguard equivalent to be a Sith. You simply have to let flow your emotions. But it's not in contradiction with trying to find inner focus, and not letting your control over the Force go.

[Athaniar]

The sequel, however, was a master stroke of writing that actually did something facinating with the Star Wars universe, rather than try and squeeze just a little more blood out of the 'light side good, dark side bad' banality that it so often is.

To me, this "master stroke of writing" was just a strange, uninteresting interference that totally detracted from the game. Especially Kreia, who is one of the worst videogame characters ever. Totally hated her, and the "big reveal" came as no surprise at all.


The MMO that Bioware is working on will probably make me cut my own head off in disappiontment,
You do know that they are blurring the distinctions between good and evil by allowing (semi)evil Jedi and (semi)good Sith, right?


and HK47 was once hilarious but his appearances in popular gaming culture these days are about asa prolific as most internet memes, and almost as welcome.
HK-47 not hilarious anymore? DO NOT BLASPHEME! DO NOT BLASPHEME!

[Pronounceable]

Totally hated her, and the "big reveal" came as no surprise at all.

The rest can be attributed to different tastes (except for "Kreia, who is pone (?) of the worst videogame characters ever", them's fighting words), but I object to this arguement popping up every KotoR2 discussion. What you term as big reveal was made obvious from the start and broadcasted all throughout the game. There was no surprise intended with that. It was the journey that mattered, not the destination.

And the fact that the first one had one of the most famous "big reveals" in videogames, while the second one doesn't have one is amusing.

[Trazoi]

And the fact that the first one had one of the most famous "big reveals" in videogames, while the second one doesn't have one is amusing.
The weird thing for me was that I strongly suspected the "big reveal" in the first KoTOR early on, so it didn't come as much of a shock.

I found Kreia to be one of the most interesting characters ever in an RPG... (KoTOR 2 spoiler)
mostly because she wasn't the typical moustache-twirling, kick-the-dog over the top villains that most RPGs have as the Big Bad. She wasn't even especially evil, and her motivation made a lot of sense.

[Tom_Violence]

To me, this "master stroke of writing" was just a strange, uninteresting interference that totally detracted from the game. Especially Kreia, who is pone of the worst videogame characters ever. Totally hated her, and the "big reveal" came as no surprise at all.

Like Trazoi, I very much saw the 'big reveal' in the original from about a mile away (actually through metagaming - from the start Revan is clearly sexless, faceless, and voiceless, which basically just equals 'player generated'). It was like reading a Palahniuk novel, ba-dum! :smalltongue: I've never been a fan of 'big reveals' for the very reason that often they're predictable and often don't work too well, so I was quite happy that KotOR2 didn't actually have one (Kreia being Sith doesn't count - she tells you that before you're even halfway through it if you actually talk to her).

More to the point, though - if the writing was a interference to the game, what game was it that you were trying to play? To me the writing was the game. Talking to characters instead of hitting them with a lightsaber again and again and again (combat in KotOR causes comas) was what I found most enjoyable. As your beloved idol HK points out, the characters of the first game had about as much personality as a cardboard cutout ("I don't trust people!", "My emotions are confusing, oh my!", "I'm not a little kid!", "War is great, right?", "Rwrrrar", and "Beep"), so no really amazing talking fun was to be had there. As already mentioned I found that the combat was something to be endured rather than enjoyed, and the thing that stood out about the game the most for me was really just that you got to be a Jedi (a coolness that has been carrying the franchise for god-knows how long now) and run around in a very well polished Star Wars RPG for once.


You do know that they are blurring the distinctions between good and evil by allowing (semi)evil Jedi and (semi)good Sith, right?

Meh, it'll still be a MMO and that's more than bad enough. :smallannoyed:

[Trazoi]

Like Trazoi, I very much saw the 'big reveal' in the original from about a mile away (actually through metagaming - from the start Revan is clearly sexless, faceless, and voiceless, which basically just equals 'player generated').
Hah! That's exactly how I figured it out too! :smallbiggrin:

(spoilered in case, for some bizarre reason, you're reading this thread and are worried about the twist being ruined).

The exact moment was when I was watching that cutscene where Malak and Revan first enter that temple on the Jedi planet of Dantooine. I remember thinking something like "Malak's a fair bit taller than Revan and still imposing without that jaw thing. Revan's still all covered up though, and he's still doing the imposing silent thing. Hang on, "he?!" Is it "he" or "she"? What gender is Revan? Heck, I don't know anything about what Revan looks like at all.

It pretty much clicked from there. When it comes to characters, there was only one variable in the game. :smallsmile:

The big reveal in KoTOR 2 wasn't so much who the Big Bad was, but why they were the Big Bad. And it wasn't a big "No Luke, I am your father" moment, but one you figured out slowly through conversation and character interaction. I agree that the recruitable NPCs were a lot better in the sequel. In the first, the only one I found interesting was Canderous Ordo, and even then he was essentially "Saiyan warrior, Star Wars style". Even HK-47, who everyone seems to love and who I did find amusing, got a bit too over the top.

[Joran]

That isn't true. You get to choose what was Revan at the beginning of Kotor2.
It's just that, for timeline's sake, they had to choose one path over the other when it comes to non-player interference. They have done it in Jedi Knight, in Jedi Academy, and in all game you have to make a choice.

But that ruined the immersion for me. My character was a person quick to anger, who through countless betrayals, shows of force, and mass killings became the most powerful person in the galaxy. I really, really liked my character =P

I did like the story of KotOR 2 a bit, and the philosophy about the Force, but the unfinished nature of the game and the fact that I couldn't conceive of my character from KotOR 1 leaving the StarForge for any reason outside of death killed my appreciation for the game.

[Cristo Meyers]

The weird thing for me was that I strongly suspected the "big reveal" in the first KoTOR early on, so it didn't come as much of a shock.


I had it pretty much as soon as Jedi Master Asner said:

"This could lead you down an all-too-familiar path..." May as well have stuck a neon sign on my character that said REVAN.

There was added humor when my wife first played through. The random name generator actually gave her an anagram of "I Am Revan" as a name. Clearly Bastila was in charge of giving her a new name...

The KoTOR's are the first Star Wars video games that I actually enjoyed playing. I still prefer the second over the first, despite its incompleteness.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I deliberately did something like that with my most recent playthrough of KOTOR I. My scoundrel/guardian's name, Cevahn Stari, is an anagram of Revan's title in the KOTOR comic book series, the "Revanchist."

[Trazoi]

I named my second KoTOR character after one of my standard female character names for games... "Raven" :smallamused:

Re: Jedi Master Asner: I think at that time I'd already sussed that there was a connection between Revan and the player character, mostly because there's nearly lalways a connection. I hadn't yet ruled out Revan being the PCs father/brother/aunt or whatever. However during all those speeches the Jedi were very careful to not use any gender identifying pronouns, which helped me twig to it during the next cutscene - I guess I really needed to see Revan for me to really think about it.

Interestingly, I think the only time I caught someone using a pronoun for Revan was with one of the conversations you have with Canderous Ordo (Canderous called Revan a "he"). I guess Canderous never saw Revan without a mask.

[SolkaTruesilver]

But that ruined the immersion for me. My character was a person quick to anger, who through countless betrayals, shows of force, and mass killings became the most powerful person in the galaxy. I really, really liked my character =P


Yhea. But I always saw your actions of the first game as you are... someone else. You aren't "The" Revan. You are merely a shadow of him, even if/when you embrace your identify, you aren't totally back into "Revan" personnality.

After the game, however, your character finally comes back to his sense, and recover all of his memory. Now he knew why he waged war against the Jedi. He knew why he came back to take the Star Forge. He knew why he had to go away again. In essence, your own character, wether he was a nicy-goody dumbass or a rampaging megalomaniac, wasn't Revan. He was... your character.

I like the cheap plot trick of taking away your character so he will fit whatever the writers wanted him to be.

I don't think Malak ever really understood what he got himself in to. Nor reason behind Revan's actions to wage that war. I don't try Darth Betraya ever trained him...

Also, it made little sense if Revan was a 8-int and 8-wis character if that's what your build...

edit: I also protest people who say that KOTOR2 turned Revan into a Mary Sue. Why? Because, ultimately, he failed his schemes that happened before KOTOR1. He wanted to conquer the Republic to use it, not to destroy it. He miserably failed because of Malak, and that's why, at the end, he had to go back and fight alone.

*sigh* I would so much love to learn about it all...

[Tom_Violence]

But that ruined the immersion for me. My character was a person quick to anger, who through countless betrayals, shows of force, and mass killings became the most powerful person in the galaxy. I really, really liked my character =P

I did like the story of KotOR 2 a bit, and the philosophy about the Force, but the unfinished nature of the game and the fact that I couldn't conceive of my character from KotOR 1 leaving the StarForge for any reason outside of death killed my appreciation for the game.

Doesn't that just unfortunately mean that sequential games are a no-no for you? Like it or lump it, but they had to do something with Revan in order to make a sequel at all, and you can hardly blame the developers for not reading your mind about what Revan's motivations were to you. The other option would have been to put very little emphasis on Revan at all for the sequel, but that would then make the games feel very unconnected indeed.


*sigh* I would so much love to learn about it all...

Soon you can, for only $14.99 and more man-hours than anyone wants to lose per month! Woo!

[SolkaTruesilver]

Soon you can, for only $14.99 and more man-hours than anyone wants to lose per month! Woo!

It won't be about Revan and the Exile going to fight True Sith. It's going to be about Handmaiden's Jedis and Disciple's Siths fighting each other for the Republic's control... :smallfrown:

[toasty]

It won't be about Revan and the Exile going to fight True Sith. It's going to be about Handmaiden's Jedis and Disciple's Siths fighting each other for the Republic's control... :smallfrown:

Sad isn't it?

When I heard Kotor III was never to be and instead it was going to be an MMO I died a little inside. There are already enough MMOs I'd be interested in playing and I don't want to play a star wars MMO at all. I want to learn more about the wonderful story of Kotor's 1 and 2. Why, why, why? Why did they have to make the next Kotor a MMO?!

[Tom_Violence]

It won't be about Revan and the Exile going to fight True Sith. It's going to be about Handmaiden's Jedis and Disciple's Siths fighting each other for the Republic's control... :smallfrown:

What do you mean? You'll get to queue for hours to play weeks of pointless repetitive fetch-'quests' to eventually get the chance to read a little bit of bland backstory about it. How can you not think that's awesome? :smalltongue:

[Pronounceable]

What do you mean? You'll get to queue for hours to play weeks of pointless repetitive fetch-'quests' to eventually get the chance to read a little bit of bland backstory about it. How can you not think that's awesome? :smalltongue:

Cos they're spoiled rotten, that's why! After 1,5 games with nice and long chunks of easily accessible backstory, compelling and meaningfully interactable NPCs AND a gameworld that actually responds to player input; they think they're TOO GOOD for good ol' mindless grind...

Damn whippersnappers! Why, in my day we used to have to do 17 fetch quests during character creation. Going uphill. Both ways. In a blizzard...

[Joran]

Doesn't that just unfortunately mean that sequential games are a no-no for you? Like it or lump it, but they had to do something with Revan in order to make a sequel at all, and you can hardly blame the developers for not reading your mind about what Revan's motivations were to you. The other option would have been to put very little emphasis on Revan at all for the sequel, but that would then make the games feel very unconnected indeed.

I thought Baldur's Gate 2 did a pretty good job of continuing the story from Baldur's Gate 1. You were still your character and could control what you wanted to do. Then again, the people imprisoned with me were most of my party members, so that didn't irk me.


In essence, your own character, wether he was a nicy-goody dumbass or a rampaging megalomaniac, wasn't Revan. He was... your character.

So, regardless of whether or not I saved the Republic or destroyed the Republic, it's going to be the same? Whether or not I kept the StarForge, a relic of immense power, or helped destroy it, the universe is the same? Basically, it made my entire playthrough of the first game moot, plotwise. I did like the game and I played it all the way through, but I didn't love it like the first game.

P.S. I did have a lot of rage devoted at Pazaak. Going second is a huge advantage =P

[Kiero]

I had a lot of fun with both games, even if KotOR II was unfinished.

I liked the influence system (which meant there was an actual point to talking to the NPCs when you'd played the game more than once), though I hated the item crafting (far too fiddly, what we'd been treated to in the first game was more than enough).

I won't be going anywhere near "KotOR III" since it isn't actually a sequel at all. I've got lots of better things to do than waste my time with an MMO.

[Ehra]

What do you mean? You'll get to queue for hours to play weeks of pointless repetitive fetch-'quests' to eventually get the chance to read a little bit of bland backstory about it. How can you not think that's awesome? :smalltongue:

Have you guys read up on the game? I don't know what the story will be about but Bioware seems to be trying very hard to let everyone know that the game will heavily focus on the story. From what I've been reading it sounds like (meaning this is just a guess on my part) the main story will be instanced (single player) because I don't see how they do the things they're talking about otherwise (choices that affect your henchmen/party, conversations/relationships with your henchmen like in the first two games, permanent choices that actually have consequences). Then when you do the "side stuff" your party is supposed to stay on your ship while you do whatever, which sounds like this'll be when you do your normal MMO stuff.


Bioware hasn't made a bad game yet. I don't see why they'd magically start just because they're making an MMO now. I mean, Guild Wars is an "MMO" focused almost entirely around PvP but they managed to do a fairly good job of telling a story (through instances) without requiring you to grind for obscene amounts of time. If a bunch of the guys who made Diablo can do that, I'm sure Bioware can do much better.

[Kiero]

Bioware hasn't made a bad game yet. I don't see why they'd magically start just because they're making an MMO now. I mean, Guild Wars is an "MMO" focused almost entirely around PvP but they managed to do a fairly good job of telling a story (through instances) without requiring you to grind for obscene amounts of time. If a bunch of the guys who made Diablo can do that, I'm sure Bioware can do much better.

Because the entire notion of an MMO is for some people, un-fun. I don't want to suffer every idiot on the internet when I play a game, nor for that matter do I see why I should be paying a monthly subscription for something I already bought once.

[Athaniar]

So it wasn't even supposed to be a reveal? I can't determine if that makes it better or worse in my opinion. Still the same, I guess. Anyway,

When Kreia just kills the Jedi masters after you spend so much time locating them

annoys me a lot. It makes the time I spent doing that seem wasted on nothing save locating a few annoying people who insist on following me.

[Maxymiuk]

When Kreia just kills the Jedi masters after you spend so much time locating them



Because that's what she was intending to do the whole time. Well, not exactly. It's roughly like this:

- She's Sith. Only she isn't. Rather, she thinks the Jedi teachings are fundamentally flawed.
- In the Exile, she sees the proof of this, as well as proof that you can be a "good" Force user or a "pragmatic" Force user without succumbing to the Dark Side (If you do play a DS character and kill all the masters, she strikes you down instead and chews you out for being a murderous idiot.
- She sends you out to gather the masters - and make no mistake, she's constantly manipulating you into doing exactly what she wants you to - and in the course of your journey she teaches you her own philosophy, to in the end bring you before them as her student. To tell them "now do you see where your error lies?" That's what she really wants - to hear the masters say "yes, we were wrong. The Jedi Orders booped up big time."
- However, the masters instead decide that the Exile is the BBEG and attempt to cut him off from the Force. It's implied that due to the nature of the Exile's connection to the Force, this would kill him, and she can't have that - he's her student and, in her own twisted way, she loves him.
- Lastly, she doesn't kill them. What she does instead is, she shows them the nature of Exile's connection to the Force in the manner of "NOW do you understand?" It's the shock of being exposed to the "hole in the Force" and their own inability to understand it that kills them.

[Ehra]

Because the entire notion of an MMO is for some people, un-fun. I don't want to suffer every idiot on the internet when I play a game, nor for that matter do I see why I should be paying a monthly subscription for something I already bought once.

Not wanting to play online with people or pay monthly is one thing. I was talking about the people saying the content of the game will be terrible simply because it's an MMO, despite Bioware's impeccable track record.

[Philistine]

Not wanting to play online with people or pay monthly is one thing. I was talking about the people saying the content of the game will be terrible simply because it's an MMO, despite Bioware's impeccable track record.

"BioWare's impeccable track record" isn't relevant to TOR. First, BioWare have never made an MMO before. Second, the team working on TOR are almost all newcomers, few of whom were part of making BioWare's previous games. In fact, I think there are more ex-SOE staff at BioWare Austin than alums of BG or NWN; so perhaps that pedigree (EQ, EQ2, SW:G) is the one you should be considering. That's a lot less cause for optimism, IMO.

Also, there are certain inherent problems with "story-based" content in MMOs. One of the most obvious is respawns - bad enough when it's random generic nameless mooks, but utterly fatal to immersion when it's a unique, named NPC opponent in a setting where death is a one-way ticket. But without that, a) your players run out of content quite quickly, and b) it becomes very difficult for them to play with friends who are at different stages of progression. Another big one connected to that is the lack of "specialness" of PCs, with hundreds or even thousands of players per server.

So, yes. "Because it's an MMO" is plenty of reason to expect the game to suck; and "BioWare's track record" is not a sufficient talisman under the circumstances.

[Flickerdart]

Philistine, while it's true that MMOs tend to have that problem, Bioware is known for doing a good job of innovation. Yes, MMOs are annoyingly poor at storytelling, but there are few studios that can fix that better than Bioware.

[Ehra]

"BioWare's impeccable track record" isn't relevant to TOR. First, BioWare have never made an MMO before. Second, the team working on TOR are almost all newcomers, few of whom were part of making BioWare's previous games. In fact, I think there are more ex-SOE staff at BioWare Austin than alums of BG or NWN; so perhaps that pedigree (EQ, EQ2, SW:G) is the one you should be considering. That's a lot less cause for optimism, IMO.

As far as I know, EQ, EQ2, and SW:G all had different development teams except maybe a few of the head guys who I doubt would be with Bioware now. I never kept up with those games, though, so I could be wrong.

The most important people will be the head developers who I'm sure are from Bioware (in fact, I remember reading a review where someone from Bioware was talking about how he handles quality control with the writing). The biggest effects I can imagine everyone else having on the direction of the game would be things like art direction, quality control (bugs), and balance. KOTOR is pretty unbalanced between the classes, imo, so if they drop the ball in that case then I'd say it's fairly par for course :smallsmile:


Also, there are certain inherent problems with "story-based" content in MMOs. One of the most obvious is respawns - bad enough when it's random generic nameless mooks, but utterly fatal to immersion when it's a unique, named NPC opponent in a setting where death is a one-way ticket.

This would be easily fixed by keeping all of the main story elements instanced a la Guild Wars or even parts of Lord of the Rings Online.


But without that, a) your players run out of content quite quickly,

True, but I don't really think the KOTOR games were famous for the amount of time it took to beat them. Also, from the hints we've been given so far, the game may be going with a microtransaction payment plan. So you'd buy content as it becomes available, which means you're not wasting your monthly payments waiting for updates.


b) it becomes very difficult for them to play with friends who are at different stages of progression.

Well, yes. If you want a story based game then it's going to be hard for friends to play together if they don't actually play together. You couldn't play with friends at all in KOTOR so I don't see how this is a problem.


Another big one connected to that is the lack of "specialness" of PCs, with hundreds or even thousands of players per server.

This I agree with, but it'll depend on how Bioware handles it. It's not like your character was the only Jedi in the game in the KOTOR series, so we'll see.

[Toastkart]

Because that's what she was intending to do the whole time. Well, not exactly. It's roughly like this:

- She's Sith. Only she isn't. Rather, she thinks the Jedi teachings are fundamentally flawed.
- In the Exile, she sees the proof of this, as well as proof that you can be a "good" Force user or a "pragmatic" Force user without succumbing to the Dark Side (If you do play a DS character and kill all the masters, she strikes you down instead and chews you out for being a murderous idiot.
- She sends you out to gather the masters - and make no mistake, she's constantly manipulating you into doing exactly what she wants you to - and in the course of your journey she teaches you her own philosophy, to in the end bring you before them as her student. To tell them "now do you see where your error lies?" That's what she really wants - to hear the masters say "yes, we were wrong. The Jedi Orders booped up big time."
- However, the masters instead decide that the Exile is the BBEG and attempt to cut him off from the Force. It's implied that due to the nature of the Exile's connection to the Force, this would kill him, and she can't have that - he's her student and, in her own twisted way, she loves him.
- Lastly, she doesn't kill them. What she does instead is, she shows them the nature of Exile's connection to the Force in the manner of "NOW do you understand?" It's the shock of being exposed to the "hole in the Force" and their own inability to understand it that kills them.

To sort of clarify/ add to what Maxymiuk has said: I wouldn't go so far as to say that Kreia is Sith unless you're willing to make the assumption that any Force Sensitive that isn't a member of the Jedi Order is a Sith. Kreia recognized the fundamental flaw in how the Force was perceived and how it was taught. She tried to enact change as a teacher for the Jedi, but was thrown out when her star pupil, Revan, "fell" to the dark side. So she tried to do the same for the Sith, teaching a better way. This time, they nearly killed her and stripped her of her Force powers to boot.

Having been betrayed by both sides of the Force, Kreia realizes the problem. The two great powers of the galaxy, the Jedi and the Sith, are too dependent on the Force. The Sith are easily explained, they're like Force Addicts. The Jedi are slightly different, but no better off. The Force is like their religion, their deity, and their source of prescient knowledge.

So Kreia takes what is good about the Jedi teachings and what is good about the Sith teachings and blends them together in such a way that a more balanced approach to the Force can be achieved.

Now, as for the Jedi Masters, I disagree that she merely showed them the nature of the Exile's 'wound', or at the very least, that she did so by severing their connection to the Force. Kreia didn't kill them, their dependency on the Force did. Did you notice that throughout the game the Jedi Masters are afraid of the Exile? And why? You would think that they would be relieved that the Exile survived the massacre at Malachor V at all, instead they're afraid of her. It is totally inconceivable to them that a Force sensitive could willfully (remember, the Exile severed her own connection to the Force) live without the Force. To them, the Exile is like a Force leper or something.

I also have to take issue with the Exile being a "wound" in the Force. The only place we hear this from is the Jedi Masters, and they're hardly a credible source of information, considering they mistakenly believe that the Exile is responsible for the deaths of countless Jedi and the destruction of Katar. Let's face it, the Jedi Masters sent the Exile away just so they wouldn't have to deal with the implications a self-disconnected Force sensitive brings. The Exile's very existence is a threat to their religion, do you really think they're going to tell her the truth? Or spend enough time researching what's happened to her to find out the truth? Kreia's not the only liar and manipulator, you know. It's why she uses it as part of her teaching method.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've always wondered about the implications of those conversations, and now I understand!:smallsmile:

[Pronounceable]

To sort of clarify/ add to what Maxymiuk has said: I wouldn't go so far as to say that Kreia is Sith unless you're willing to make the assumption that any Force Sensitive that isn't a member of the Jedi Order is a Sith. Kreia recognized the fundamental flaw in how the Force was perceived and how it was taught. She tried to enact change as a teacher for the Jedi, but was thrown out when her star pupil, Revan, "fell" to the dark side. So she tried to do the same for the Sith, teaching a better way. This time, they nearly killed her and stripped her of her Force powers to boot.

Having been betrayed by both sides of the Force, Kreia realizes the problem. The two great powers of the galaxy, the Jedi and the Sith, are too dependent on the Force. The Sith are easily explained, they're like Force Addicts. The Jedi are slightly different, but no better off. The Force is like their religion, their deity, and their source of prescient knowledge.

So Kreia takes what is good about the Jedi teachings and what is good about the Sith teachings and blends them together in such a way that a more balanced approach to the Force can be achieved.

Now, as for the Jedi Masters, I disagree that she merely showed them the nature of the Exile's 'wound', or at the very least, that she did so by severing their connection to the Force. Kreia didn't kill them, their dependency on the Force did. Did you notice that throughout the game the Jedi Masters are afraid of the Exile? And why? You would think that they would be relieved that the Exile survived the massacre at Malachor V at all, instead they're afraid of her. It is totally inconceivable to them that a Force sensitive could willfully (remember, the Exile severed her own connection to the Force) live without the Force. To them, the Exile is like a Force leper or something.

I also have to take issue with the Exile being a "wound" in the Force. The only place we hear this from is the Jedi Masters, and they're hardly a credible source of information, considering they mistakenly believe that the Exile is responsible for the deaths of countless Jedi and the destruction of Katar. Let's face it, the Jedi Masters sent the Exile away just so they wouldn't have to deal with the implications a self-disconnected Force sensitive brings. The Exile's very existence is a threat to their religion, do you really think they're going to tell her the truth? Or spend enough time researching what's happened to her to find out the truth? Kreia's not the only liar and manipulator, you know. It's why she uses it as part of her teaching method.



Actually, ALL students Kreia has ever taught "fell" during Mandalorian Wars so the masters' distrust is understandable. I'm sure it says that somewhere n the game.

And Kreia's main beef is that Force=Fate. She sees it as some uncaring god that randomly chooses people and sets them on collision courses with others like them with disasterous results (and I for one fully agree with her view, just look at the whole history of SW). She can't stand the idea of all life (not to mention herself) being manipulated by some abstract concept. What she ultimately wants is to destroy the force. All that stuff about finding a balanced approach to force for a complete understanding is a load of wash, part of her manipulations.

Exile is a walking wound in the force. She spends the game following (or rather shoving) Exile so she can learn how that happened. Exile is the only one ever to self disconnect from the force, which somehow wounded the force. That is what makes him precious to Kreia, and an abomination and a lethal threat to the masters: if force can be wounded, then it can be killed as well. Kreia sees a way to bring about the death of the force in Exile. She finally understands how to wound the force when masters face Exile. Then, seeing they're never gonna understand the lesson she's been trying to hammer into their thick skulls (life without the force is possible), she forcibly (if you'll excuse the pun) shows it to them. Predictably, they can't take it.

On masters: There's some sort of Nameless One-Transcendent One connection between Exile and Nihilus (Chris Avellone admits that in some interview), so they are somewhat justified in thinking Exile's been a very naughty boy.

[Tom_Violence]

"BioWare's impeccable track record" isn't relevant to TOR. First, BioWare have never made an MMO before. Second, the team working on TOR are almost all newcomers, few of whom were part of making BioWare's previous games. In fact, I think there are more ex-SOE staff at BioWare Austin than alums of BG or NWN; so perhaps that pedigree (EQ, EQ2, SW:G) is the one you should be considering. That's a lot less cause for optimism, IMO.

Also, there are certain inherent problems with "story-based" content in MMOs. One of the most obvious is respawns - bad enough when it's random generic nameless mooks, but utterly fatal to immersion when it's a unique, named NPC opponent in a setting where death is a one-way ticket. But without that, a) your players run out of content quite quickly, and b) it becomes very difficult for them to play with friends who are at different stages of progression. Another big one connected to that is the lack of "specialness" of PCs, with hundreds or even thousands of players per server.

So, yes. "Because it's an MMO" is plenty of reason to expect the game to suck; and "BioWare's track record" is not a sufficient talisman under the circumstances.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Ultimately though, its an unreleased game, which we don't really know much about. Us cynics have our 'All MMOs suck and this one will be no different' argument, the optimists have their 'Bioware make great games and this one will be no different' shtick. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

But this one will definitely suck.

[Toastkart]

Actually, ALL students Kreia has ever taught "fell" during Mandalorian Wars so the masters' distrust is understandable. I'm sure it says that somewhere n the game.

And Kreia's main beef is that Force=Fate. She sees it as some uncaring god that randomly chooses people and sets them on collision courses with others like them with disasterous results (and I for one fully agree with her view, just look at the whole history of SW). She can't stand the idea of all life (not to mention herself) being manipulated by some abstract concept. What she ultimately wants is to destroy the force. All that stuff about finding a balanced approach to force for a complete understanding is a load of wash, part of her manipulations.

Exile is a walking wound in the force. She spends the game following (or rather shoving) Exile so she can learn how that happened. Exile is the only one ever to self disconnect from the force, which somehow wounded the force. That is what makes him precious to Kreia, and an abomination and a lethal threat to the masters: if force can be wounded, then it can be killed as well. Kreia sees a way to bring about the death of the force in Exile. She finally understands how to wound the force when masters face Exile. Then, seeing they're never gonna understand the lesson she's been trying to hammer into their thick skulls (life without the force is possible), she forcibly (if you'll excuse the pun) shows it to them. Predictably, they can't take it.

On masters: There's some sort of Nameless One-Transcendent One connection between Exile and Nihilus (Chris Avellone admits that in some interview), so they are somewhat justified in thinking Exile's been a very naughty boy.


Wait, so you admit that Kreia is a liar and manipulator but take her thinly veiled reasons for betraying the Exile at face value? Kreia's basic motivation is the perpetuation of her teachings. Turning on the Exile teaches the final lesson of betrayal: self-empowerment or death. Kreia was a Sith at one time and how do the Sith advance? By growing more powerful than their teachers and destroying them. But the Exile was a Jedi, where such a waste of a good resource would be unthinkable, so Kreia betrayed the Exile in order to be the final obstacle the Exile needs to overcome.

As for this death of the Force, why does everyone take that so literally? It is just as likely, if not more likely, that she means a metaphysical death of the Force, i.e. the death of dependency on the Force. I have never noticed anywhere that the Force has a directed will or destiny. All of that kind of talk comes from the Jedi as part of their religious teachings.

And why would Kreia seek to actively destroy the Force? The benefit of living without it is in the self-severed connection in and of itself. Severing the Jedi Masters' connection to the Force was done in anger and to protect the Exile, but what Kreia really wants is for the galaxy to learn from the Exile's willful turning away from the Force, not to have that choice made for them. And what are the two main things that Kreia and the Exile accomplished? They brought both the Jedi and the Sith to their knees and broke their hold over the galaxy. This leaves a huge power vacuum for a restructuring of both groups into a better whole, with the Exile or one of her students carrying on Kreia's teachings.

[Pronounceable]

Wait, so you admit that Kreia is a liar and manipulator but take her thinly veiled reasons for betraying the Exile at face value? Kreia's basic motivation is the perpetuation of her teachings. Turning on the Exile teaches the final lesson of betrayal: self-empowerment or death. Kreia was a Sith at one time and how do the Sith advance? By growing more powerful than their teachers and destroying them. But the Exile was a Jedi, where such a waste of a good resource would be unthinkable, so Kreia betrayed the Exile in order to be the final obstacle the Exile needs to overcome.

As for this death of the Force, why does everyone take that so literally? It is just as likely, if not more likely, that she means a metaphysical death of the Force, i.e. the death of dependency on the Force. I have never noticed anywhere that the Force has a directed will or destiny. All of that kind of talk comes from the Jedi as part of their religious teachings.

And why would Kreia seek to actively destroy the Force? The benefit of living without it is in the self-severed connection in and of itself. Severing the Jedi Masters' connection to the Force was done in anger and to protect the Exile, but what Kreia really wants is for the galaxy to learn from the Exile's willful turning away from the Force, not to have that choice made for them. And what are the two main things that Kreia and the Exile accomplished? They brought both the Jedi and the Sith to their knees and broke their hold over the galaxy. This leaves a huge power vacuum for a restructuring of both groups into a better whole, with the Exile or one of her students carrying on Kreia's teachings.


Why wouldn't she? Destroying the main source of her grief would be much more preferable than isolating it, provided there is a way. That way everyone'd be free of it forever, instead of risking it being somehow unleashed again in the future. But if this "wound" or "hole" in the force can't be used to really kill it, metaphysical death is the next best thing. I think Kreia was gonna do something in an attempt to kill the force which involved goading Exile to Malachor somehow, but endgame is far too mangled to be sure.

The force certainly "chooses" some over others. It also grants "feelings" and "visions" to those that depend on it. It's not a very big leap of thought to view that as a sort of manipulation. Collisions between the chosen ones always turn bad. And being manipulated wouldn't sit well with a manipulator, which strengthens wanting to kill the force arguement.

Besides, trying to completely destroy the Force is too awesome. It makes a better plot point.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Wait, so you admit that Kreia is a liar and manipulator but take her thinly veiled reasons for betraying the Exile at face value? Kreia's basic motivation is the perpetuation of her teachings. Turning on the Exile teaches the final lesson of betrayal: self-empowerment or death. Kreia was a Sith at one time and how do the Sith advance? By growing more powerful than their teachers and destroying them. But the Exile was a Jedi, where such a waste of a good resource would be unthinkable, so Kreia betrayed the Exile in order to be the final obstacle the Exile needs to overcome.

As for this death of the Force, why does everyone take that so literally? It is just as likely, if not more likely, that she means a metaphysical death of the Force, i.e. the death of dependency on the Force. I have never noticed anywhere that the Force has a directed will or destiny. All of that kind of talk comes from the Jedi as part of their religious teachings.

And why would Kreia seek to actively destroy the Force? The benefit of living without it is in the self-severed connection in and of itself. Severing the Jedi Masters' connection to the Force was done in anger and to protect the Exile, but what Kreia really wants is for the galaxy to learn from the Exile's willful turning away from the Force, not to have that choice made for them. And what are the two main things that Kreia and the Exile accomplished? They brought both the Jedi and the Sith to their knees and broke their hold over the galaxy. This leaves a huge power vacuum for a restructuring of both groups into a better whole, with the Exile or one of her students carrying on Kreia's teachings.

But when you think about it, she is an ultimate manipulator. And a manipulator abhor above all else to be manipulated. She can't stand the fact that there is an omnipotent force guiding us trough our lives and deciding our fate.

I think I could say I understand her side of things.. She hates being controlled. Which is why she ultimately left the Jedi and refused to accept all of Sith's philosophies. She refused to be defined by the standards people and the Force laid out for themselves. That is why she is enthralled by Revan above all else. And why if you act as a pure rampaging Sith, or as a pacifist Jedi, she is enraged. She hoped that you would break free of whatever chains the ideologies enslaves you into.

She wants everyone to be free of the Force.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hum.. I was looking for an Influence guide to the Dark Side (mwahahahahaha!!!) and I saw many options that said to DECREASE the influence on some of my party members...

Why...? Why would I want to decrease influence among some of my party members (specially my Jedis?)

Also.. I was thinking of making a Dark Side Gunslinger, with Consular + Assassin (Insanity + Sneak attack + Rapid fire FTW). Do you think there is a funnier build around? I completed the game once with a Goody-Guardian/Weapon Master.. and I want to avoid boredom now :smallbiggrin:

[Philistine]

Hum.. I was looking for an Influence guide to the Dark Side (mwahahahahaha!!!) and I saw many options that said to DECREASE the influence on some of my party members...

Why...? Why would I want to decrease influence among some of my party members (specially my Jedis?)

You start at 0 (neutral) influence with each party member; the scale runs from -100 (they really hate you) to +100 (they really like you). For practical purposes, though, it doesn't matter which end of the spectrum you're at - it's the distance from 0 that determines whether and when you unlock new NPC conversations (including the Jedi conversions). Since most of the actions that gain influence with NPCs are LS, a DS guide will advise you to lose influence instead.

[SolkaTruesilver]

You start at 0 (neutral) influence with each party member; the scale runs from -100 (they really hate you) to +100 (they really like you). For practical purposes, though, it doesn't matter which end of the spectrum you're at - it's the distance from 0 that determines whether and when you unlock new NPC conversations (including the Jedi conversions). Since most of the actions that gain influence with NPCs are LS, a DS guide will advise you to lose influence instead.

But doesn't gaining veeery low influence with party members turn them into opposite alignement than me? I don't want to be a Sith Badass leading a buncha goody Jedis. I want everyone (specially Horny Handmaiden) to start showing those Dark Side Scars!!

[Rutskarn]

I just want it said that I played through the game three times.

Each time as a full-blown lightsider. And a consular, to avoid maximum conflict.

I plead guilty to all charges of Wussitude.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Wussitude? I'd say you're more guilty of awesomeness. Light-sided Consulars rock!:smallcool:

[Pronounceable]

Wussitude? I'd say you're more guilty of awesomeness. Light-sided Consulars rock!:smallcool:

Not if they're spamming force storm.

[Rutskarn]

In all seriousness, easily the most devastating attack in KOTOR is the stasis field. It's almost too powerful.

[Philistine]

But doesn't gaining veeery low influence with party members turn them into opposite alignement than me? I don't want to be a Sith Badass leading a buncha goody Jedis. I want everyone (specially Horny Handmaiden) to start showing those Dark Side Scars!!

Yes, that's true. Well, you can always follow the LS influence guide to max her out (and Bao-dur as well*), then leave them parked on the boat while you do your DS deeds. It'll delay your quest for DS Mastery, but not for too long.


* And Mira if you get her, though it sounds like you'll more likely end up with Hanharr. Also applies to Disciple, if you were playing a female Exile.

[Closet_Skeleton]

In all seriousness, easily the most devastating attack in KOTOR is the stasis field. It's almost too powerful.

Killing immobile enemies takes longer than using Force Storm twice (thereby clearing any room, at least in KotOR 2). I'd rather take 1 round of enemy's attacks than sit around beating up people who can't fight back.

[Rutskarn]

Killing immobile enemies takes longer than using Force Storm twice (thereby clearing any room, at least in KotOR 2). I'd rather take 1 round of enemy's attacks than sit around beating up people who can't fight back.

True. However, combine this with the fact that any three lightsiders worth their salt have a cheap-as-dirt group healing power that all put together heals 90 per time, and you have a nigh-unstoppable fighting force.

[Kiero]

Not wanting to play online with people or pay monthly is one thing. I was talking about the people saying the content of the game will be terrible simply because it's an MMO, despite Bioware's impeccable track record.

I don't see how you can possibly resolve a deep, epic storyline where a solo player is the hero of the tale, with a game where thousands, possibly millions of people are "the hero". Single-player RPGs and MMOs do completely different things.

Unless you've got some kind of retarded system where most people playing actually can't be "the hero" but have to be the nobody extras, and only a handful get to do the cool stuff, your epic quest to rescue the galaxy is usurped by SithLordHaxsploit99323 wiping out the Jedi Council and thus bringing all your quests to an abrupt end, or at least until they respawn again and he has another go.

It's chalk and cheese.

And the economics are not trivial. When I buy a single-player RPG, it's mine and that's the end of my costs. I don't have to pay a subscription or any such nonsense to continue playing. If there are expansions or sequels, then I can get those, but they don't impact on my playing of the original.

This idea of "paying for more content" just sounds like a great way to scam even more money out of the people foolish enough to be paying a regular sub for rubbish gameplay in the first place.

[Rutskarn]

Kiero:

I've got two comments.

Firstly, while I agree that it isn't nearly as simple as in single player, "everyone's the hero" MMOs have been done. Guild Wars and Age of Conan both basically tell the main character that they're the hero, and everyone else is just a bunch of mercenaries running around. Supposedly, it's pretty well implemented.

Secondly, it's not really a scam. The whole dynamic concept thing isn't a con, it's a major feature. It's the difference between buying DVDs and subscribing to cable.

Anyway, I myself would prefer a single-player game, and am not currently playing any MMOs. I will not subscribe to this MMO either. I'm just saying, this project has more legitimacy than you might give it credit for.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I personally regard TOR as an experiment on BioWare's part. This is their first MMORPG, so we'll have to wait and see what they do with it. If they do well, kudos! If not, meh I wasn't gonna buy it anyway. I know BioWare isn't some kind of god, but they have a history of making good quality games, and they've done well with Star Wars before, so I can't think of any other company I'd trust more to pull it off. Besides, it'll probably still be better than the bugginess that was Star Wars Galaxies.

[Rutskarn]

I personally regard TOR as an experiment on BioWare's part. This is their first MMORPG, so we'll have to wait and see what they do with it. If they do well, kudos! If not, meh I wasn't gonna buy it anyway. I know BioWare isn't some kind of god, but they have a history of making good quality games, and they've done well with Star Wars before, so I can't think of any other company I'd trust more to pull it off. Besides, it'll probably still be better than the bugginess that was Star Wars Galaxies.

Exactly.

I mean, Bioware isn't some sort of god, impossibly churning out excellent-quality games while simultaneously whacking up their formula every time.

They can't all be Valve, after all.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've never played Valve's games so I wouldn't know, and I'm not a fan of FPS's in any case. Maybe when they develop an RPG of their own.

[Remmirath]

I think it's really too early to tell whether TOB will be good or not. It could be, sure. I'd probably get it if it weren't a MMORPG, but I don't really like the whole 'pay per month' thing. If it looks really good I might try it.
And yeah, Bioware has made some great games, but that doesn't make them infallible.


Firstly, while I agree that it isn't nearly as simple as in single player, "everyone's the hero" MMOs have been done. Guild Wars and Age of Conan both basically tell the main character that they're the hero, and everyone else is just a bunch of mercenaries running around. Supposedly, it's pretty well implemented.

I don't know about Age of Conan, but it felt a bit weird to me in Guild Wars. Maybe that's just because I'm not used to playing MMORPGs, though. Still, I could put it aside, and it was a fun game, so I'm not saying it can't be done or anything.

The money thing is my main problem with MMORPGs. It'd also be nice if more people were at all in character in them, but perhaps I've just gotten unlucky with that. :smallconfused:

[Rutskarn]

I don't know about Age of Conan, but it felt a bit weird to me in Guild Wars. Maybe that's just because I'm not used to playing MMORPGs, though. Still, I could put it aside, and it was a fun game, so I'm not saying it can't be done or anything.
:

You felt like you weren't as much of a hero, hmm?

I think I feel a song coming on...

(To the tune of Everyone's A Hero, Dr. Horrible's Sing-along-blog)

It may not feel too awesome,
Killing just to loot
'Cos you know who does that? Everyone.
And everyone's a brute

So you wonder what your destiny is
You're a merc, and you're depressed
But your destiny's where your work is
So your destiny's your next quest

Everyone's The Hero in their own way,
Everyone's got mobs that they must grind
It may feel such a bore, now go and grind some more
You've fallen behind

Everyone's The Hero in their own way,
In their own totally generic way

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's a little...depressing.

[Remmirath]

I think I feel a song coming on...

(To the tune of Everyone's A Hero, Dr. Horrible's Sing-along-blog)

It may not feel too awesome,
Killing just to loot
'Cos you know who does that? Everyone.
And everyone's a brute

So you wonder what your destiny is
You're a merc, and you're depressed
But your destiny's where your work is
So your destiny's your next quest

Everyone's The Hero in their own way,
Everyone's got mobs that they must grind
It may feel such a bore, now go and grind some more
You've fallen behind

Everyone's The Hero in their own way,
In their own totally generic way

Heh, yeah, that was great. :smallbiggrin:

It didn't seem so wierd until I got out into the desert with the whole Ascension part. It's been a while since I played, though, so I don't remember everything so well.

I'm not sure if there is a way to do a MMORPG where everyone is 'The Hero' effectively. I think it'd probably work better if there was some reason to have a whole bunch of people running around, like if they were in an army (of Jedi or Sith in this case, I suppose). Although that wouldn't solve everything. I can't think of any good way to handle boss fights and such.
Of course, probably nobody else can either, or they would've already done it.

I'm a little leery of the art direction right now, but it's probably still a bit early to tell. I just hope it won't get too cartoony. (Yeah, I know, there's nothing wrong with cartoony - and I don't mind it in some circumstances - but I really don't like it in games.)

[SmartAlec]

Wrath of the Lich King managed to put together some reasonable You Are The Hero experiences, especially with the Death Knight quest chain, using their new 'phasing' gimmick to give the player the occasional heroic moment alone when appropriate. Used more often, you could end up with an MMO in which the only crowded areas are the designated public areas, such as cities, or PvP areas. If they approach the design from a 'mostly Single-Player RPG with online multiplayer extras' perspective, that sounds about right to me. It would also be playing to BioWare's strengths.

I'd be absolutely flabberghasted if the True Sith, and the story of Revan and the Exile, are never mentioned in the KOTORMMO endgame. The True Sith, especially, have 'Burning Crusade-esque Expansion' written all over them.

[Remmirath]

Yeah. It would definitely be nice to know at least a little bit of what Revan was doing off in the Unknown Regions, and what the heck happened to the Exile after the wholly uninformative ending sequence.
And it would certainly be cool to have something with the True Sith.


Used more often, you could end up with an MMO in which the only crowded areas are the designated public areas, such as cities, or PvP areas.

That's how it was in Guild Wars - well, with the addition of everyone crowding around the mission launch points, but they were basically cities. I can certainly see that sort of thing working pretty well. I think it would probably just need more suspension of disbelief than playing a single-player game, since with the single player game you know that lots of other people are in fact playing this game, but in the game your character is the only one there, whereas in the MMORPG you'll inevitably run into a whole bunch of people who just did the same epic quest as you did at some point.
It's probably mostly a different mindset.

[Tom_Violence]

I'd be absolutely flabberghasted if the True Sith, and the story of Revan and the Exile, are never mentioned in the KOTORMMO endgame. The True Sith, especially, have 'Burning Crusade-esque Expansion' written all over them.

But who wants it to be just 'mentioned'? The last two games were, in different ways, landmark RPGs which were barrelling along to a grand conclusion. This MMO is not that conclusion - it cannot be. Which in itself is actually kind of encouraging, because hopefully it will mean that the MMO can be completely ignored and we can all go back to waiting for Obsidian to make KotORIII.


That's how it was in Guild Wars - well, with the addition of everyone crowding around the mission launch points, but they were basically cities. I can certainly see that sort of thing working pretty well. I think it would probably just need more suspension of disbelief than playing a single-player game, since with the single player game you know that lots of other people are in fact playing this game, but in the game your character is the only one there, whereas in the MMORPG you'll inevitably run into a whole bunch of people who just did the same epic quest as you did at some point.
It's probably mostly a different mindset.

Guild Wars did do the 'You are actually playing through a story, honest' thing quite well, which made it a very good online RPG in my book. It still suffered quite heavily from a lot of the usual MMO problems though, which prevented it from becoming anything more than just an above-average game. While KotORs Uno and Dos immersed you in a fictional world, Guild Wars was very much a 'Game', very mechanical. Suspension of disbelief seems to be the first thing sacrificed in the MMO development cycle, and for that reason above all others I believe The Old Republic will fail.

[LurkerInPlayground]

So it wasn't even supposed to be a reveal? I can't determine if that makes it better or worse in my opinion. Still the same, I guess. Anyway,

When Kreia just kills the Jedi masters after you spend so much time locating them

annoys me a lot. It makes the time I spent doing that seem wasted on nothing save locating a few annoying people who insist on following me.
I can explain this:
Kreia never intended to kill the Jedi Masters. Her entire motivation was to prove the masters that they were wrong about something. That they had some responsibility in training some of the most dangerous Sith the galaxy had known. And that, when it really came down to it, they simply weren't anything more than armchair philosophers when the Mandalorian War demanded real action. Those Jedi that *did* fight simply weren't as emotionally stable as they should have been.

Kreia's entire shtick is that the Jedi Order wasn't perfect and that it's Code wasn't all-sufficient. And the reactionary Sith philosophy wasn't either. It's heavily implied that Kreia is an outcast instructor who was spurned for her unorthodox teaching methods. And she got kicked to the curb by both clubs. She's more than a little bitter about the whole thing.

On the whole, she decides that both "sides" are both than little more than wrong-headed children being manipulated by a malevolent Destiny. And what's more, there's solid proof that the this Force isn't even necessary for survival like both doctrines claim (The Exile).

So she set out to prove them wrong by molding you, The Exile, into her prize student. She then nervously thrust you in front of the Masters to shove their faces into their own failures.

This doesn't work, since the Masters decide to blame The Exile for the problems in the galaxy, in spite of having no real understanding of the real Sith threat. Kreia steps in and spitefully kills the Masters for picking on her prize student. The irony in this is that she kills them by using their own punishment against them. Where the Exile could survive without the Force, they could not.

At the same time, she sows misinformation to Darth Scion, so he could be lured-out and destroyed by the Republic and the remaining Mandalorians. She also goes about destroying Atris and her dangerous teachings by emotionally destabilizing her and forcing a confrontation between her and The Exile. She does this, partly out of revenge, but also partly for ideological reasons.

If you went Dark Side and killed all the Masters, Kreia chews you out for pursuing a hollow revenge. There is no real ideological victory in killing the Masters. She wants the Masters to admit they were *wrong.* She was just using the Exile in order to gather the Masters in one place so that she could finally "destroy" the Jedi Order.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'd be absolutely flabberghasted if the True Sith, and the story of Revan and the Exile, are never mentioned in the KOTORMMO endgame. The True Sith, especially, have 'Burning Crusade-esque Expansion' written all over them.

The "true Sith" have practically been comfirmed as the badguys in the MMO.

[LurkerInPlayground]

The "true Sith" have practically been comfirmed as the badguys in the MMO.
Chris Avellone's "True Sith" were implied to be a civilization that practiced and discovered Dark Side traditions far before and independent of anyone in the Star Wars galaxy. More than that, these guys already control a long-established empire.

The MMO's "True Sith" are basically just the same Sith from the Star Wars galaxy who left to build their strength elsewhere then came back bigger-and-badder. In practice, it's still the same Sith from the same tradition and galaxy but an added justification as to why they're so strong.

The lameness of the latter over the former is pretty self-evident, I think.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Chris Avellone's "True Sith" were implied to be a civilization that practiced and discovered Dark Side traditions far before and independent of anyone in the Star Wars galaxy. More than that, these guys already control a long-established empire.

The MMO's "True Sith" are basically just the same Sith from the Star Wars galaxy who left to build their strength elsewhere then came back bigger-and-badder. In practice, it's still the same Sith from the same tradition and galaxy but an added justification as to why they're so strong.

The lameness of the latter over the former is pretty self-evident, I think.

Well, how about the latter being the spiritual - if inneficient - successor to the former?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I thought the "True Sith" was an idea, like Kreia said. Or am I taking that too literally?:smallconfused:

[SolkaTruesilver]

I thought the "True Sith" was an idea, like Kreia said. Or am I taking that too literally?:smallconfused:

Nananana, Kreia definetly said that the "True Sith" had an empire spreading in the far reaches of the Galaxy, and that Malachor V and Korriban were but mere outposts of that empire.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Chris Avellone's "True Sith" were implied to be a civilization that practiced and discovered Dark Side traditions far before and independent of anyone in the Star Wars galaxy. More than that, these guys already control a long-established empire.

The MMO's "True Sith" are basically just the same Sith from the Star Wars galaxy who left to build their strength elsewhere then came back bigger-and-badder. In practice, it's still the same Sith from the same tradition and galaxy but an added justification as to why they're so strong.

The lameness of the latter over the former is pretty self-evident, I think.

The later might be "lamer" to you but the former completely disrespects earlier canon. It might be "cool" to suddenly give Wedge Antilles the skills of a Jedi Master and have him kill every Star Wars badguy single handedly but it would be disrespectful to the every previous story about Wedge Antilles.

The existance of two groups of Sith, both with their own seperate empires that somehow cover some of the same planets makes no sense what so ever.


I thought the "True Sith" was an idea, like Kreia said. Or am I taking that too literally?:smallconfused:

Kreia's "true Sith" (no capitalisaton) could be interpreted as an idea but that's just one interpretation that has been deemed incorrect.

[Tom_Violence]

Avellone's Sith are that which would make for excellent epic single player antagonists. But a MMO needs moles to whack, preferably by the bajillions, and these generally have as much character as a cardboard box.

That the '(T)true Sith' are going to be in the MMO is no news at all - anyone could've told you that the next KotOR game was gonna have them in it. What matters is what is done with them, and it looks like it'll be a case of 'Oh its just you guys again' syndrome. The bottom line is I don't think many people expect great or interesting things out of them now.

Personally, I think Obsidian should just cut their loses and put their energy where it can be better spent - i.e. into making their own games.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The bottom line is I don't think many people expect great or interesting things out of them now.

Every mysterious threat will be dull and generic once unveiled.


Personally, I think Obsidian should just cut their loses and put their energy where it can be better spent - i.e. into making their own games.

:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, Obsidian have only ever made (and by that I mean released) sequels to Bioware games, which is bizare since they seem so determined to ruin the point of those bioware games that you'd think they hated them. KotOR was about making a fun game that felt like Star Wars, KotOR 2 was about screwing over its background material and making philosophical discussions that are pointless due to the inability of the player to do any philosophising himself. NWN was about making a single player character and an easy to use toolset in a differant take on D&D computer games than Baldur's Gate, NWN 2 was about stragetically controling a party with a massive learning curve to its toolset and tried to be as close to Baldur's Gate (or just the Infinity Engine if you're a Torment or Icewind Dale fan) as possible.

On the subject of KotOR 2, has anyone ever tried to turn Hanharr good? I've noticed the options when playing a dark sider and I've turned Mira evil before but I've never got around to attempting to redeem Hanharr or heard if it's actually possible.

[Tom_Violence]

Every mysterious threat will be dull and generic once unveiled.

Kreia wasn't. Trias and The Transcendent One weren't. The list goes on.


:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, Obsidian have only ever made (and by that I mean released) sequels to Bioware games, which is bizare since they seem so determined to ruin the point of those bioware games that you'd think they hated them. KotOR was about making a fun game that felt like Star Wars, KotOR 2 was about screwing over its background material and making philosophical discussions that are pointless due to the inability of the player to do any philosophising himself. NWN was about making a single player character and an easy to use toolset in a differant take on D&D computer games than Baldur's Gate, NWN 2 was about stragetically controling a party with a massive learning curve to its toolset and tried to be as close to Baldur's Gate (or just the Infinity Engine if you're a Torment or Icewind Dale fan) as possible.

I think you misunderstood my point. I feel that KotOR2 was a vast improvement on the original, which was nice but fairly bland in a lot of ways. (I don't get why you say the player wasn't able to do any philosophising - I philosophised plenty while playing that game.) The original Neverwinter Nights had one of the worst original campaigns I've ever suffered through, and the community aspect of it took a long time to properly find its feet and flourish. The sequel boasts an incredibly impressive first expansion pack and, while I agree that the party system can be a bit of a pain, I still think its an awesome game.

Obsidian should stick to making their own games, and then hopefully we won't have any of this 'rushed out the door due to publisher demands' and 'glorious franchise shamefully kidnapped and made to work in the MMO mines' nonsense.

[LurkerInPlayground]

The later might be "lamer" to you but the former completely disrespects earlier canon. It might be "cool" to suddenly give Wedge Antilles the skills of a Jedi Master and have him kill every Star Wars badguy single handedly but it would be disrespectful to the every previous story about Wedge Antilles.

The existance of two groups of Sith, both with their own seperate empires that somehow cover some of the same planets makes no sense what so ever.



Kreia's "true Sith" (no capitalisaton) could be interpreted as an idea but that's just one interpretation that has been deemed incorrect.
I don't know if you've noticed, but the entire KOTOR franchise is entirely supposed to disrespect the canon. KOTOR2 especially decided that there were some problems inherent with, *gasp* the theology revolving around the Force.

Some of us got sick of the black-and-white morality and rather enjoyed the new take on the Star Wars universe. KOTOR 2 made the "war" part a more human narrative, not an epic struggle between "light and dark." What few Jedi or Sith that there are, mostly amount to a bunch of crazed zealots fighting a private war.

And I didn't really interpret the "True Sith" as a Sith tradition somehow connected to the same galaxy. But a Dark Side tradition practiced for longer than Sith adherents in this galaxy, if "tradition" is even an appropriate term for it.

It is even heavily implied that even the Sith of the KOTOR galaxy are also required to take an ideological stand against the "True Sith." And I would very much like to know why a "war of beliefs" is even necessitated here if it even involves the more conventional Sith.

So yes, the former invites more opportunity for world-building. The latter is just, "guess what?! the same bad guys you've always had to fight have come back bigger and badder! . . . again!"

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Jedi fell to the Dark Side long before they were called the Sith. Besides, Sith in KOTOR I was more like the Galactic Empire, an expansionistic dictatorship that just happened to be governed by a user of the Dark Side of the Force. You gotta wonder what happened to all those officers and soldiers following Malak's death (assuming the canon is light-sided of course).