Why haven't Girard and Serini...(Spoilers)

[[TS] Shadow]

As we know from the Secret Order of the Samurai Gaurd, alarm systems have been placed on all of the gates so that the other OotSC members would know when a gate is dystroyed. However, the only people who have answered these as far as we know, is the Azurites. Why haven't Girard or Serini (and Dorkan, for when Lirian's Gate was dystroyed) checked on the other gates? It's a possiblity that they're dead, but I find it unlikely that they wouldn't find someone to replace them, like Soon did.

[OOTS_Supporter]

Shadow;5565895']As we know from the Secret Order of the Samurai Gaurd, alarm systems have been placed on all of the gates so that the other OotSC members would know when a gate is dystroyed. However, the only people who have answered these as far as we know, is the Azurites. Why haven't Girard or Serini (and Dorkan, for when Lirian's Gate was dystroyed) checked on the other gates? It's a possiblity that they're dead, but I find it unlikely that they wouldn't find someone to replace them, like Soon did.


I think because they are not allowed to visit eachother's gates.

[[TS] Shadow]

Not really. If the gate is dystroyed, then it's their responsiblity to try to fix it or something. We already know that Shojo sent out paladins when Lirian's gate was dystroyed. Why haven't the other two gotten involved?

[OOTS_Supporter]

Maybe they went missing?

I mean, who knows what happened Serini to have her Diary in Xykon's possesion?

[Zevox]

SoD spoilers:
Dorukan likely did check up on Lirian's Gate after it was destroyed. He knew for certain that she was dead - he mentioned during his battle with Xykon that he'd had clerics trying to resurrect her for years - so it's almost a guarantee he also knew her Gate had been destroyed, which would have prompted some investigation, not the least of which because investigating that may help him learn how she died and why he couldn't seem to resurrect her.
As for Girard and Serini, maybe they did. All we know for certain is that when the Sapphire Guard investigated the destruction of Lirian's Gate, they gave up due to finding nothing on account of having no ranks in Search. Girard and/or Serini could have checked it out at a different time from the Paladins quite easily, and we have no clue what has happened at the site of Dorukon's Gate since its destruction.

The only way I see us finding out, one way or the other, is if and when the Order meets with them.

Zevox

[[TS] Shadow]

True...but what about the Azure city gate? They're both high level, or even Epic level adventurers...they should have some sort of way to check on the Azure City gate, although the hobgoblin army does add some complications...

[Zevox]

Shadow;5565940']True...but what about the Azure city gate? They're both high level, or even Epic level adventurers...they should have some sort of way to check on the Azure City gate, although the hobgoblin army does add some complications...
There would also be the additional complication of Xykon's Cloister spell for that one - that would prevent any scrying Girard may try or Serini may pay for/have a friend try.

And again, they may well have checked it out for all we know. I don't think the Giant would cut away to show us them doing so unless it was going to become imminently important to the current plot lines. Odds are they'd only be able to view it from the outskirts of the city, though, what with the Hobgoblins and Undead inhabiting it, plus real threats like Xykon, Redcloak, and Tsukiko making it their home.

Zevox

[theinsulabot]

There would also be the additional complication of Xykon's Cloister spell for that one - that would prevent any scrying Girard may try or Serini may pay for/have a friend try.

And again, they may well have checked it out for all we know. I don't think the Giant would cut away to show us them doing so unless it was going to become imminently important to the current plot lines. Odds are they'd only be able to view it from the outskirts of the city, though, what with the Hobgoblins and Undead inhabiting it, plus real threats like Xykon, Redcloak, and Tsukiko making it their home.

Zevox

if girard turns out to be alive, i can actually see a cut away where he illusions his way close enough to see the fracturing snarl prison then hightailing it. that being said, i dont think he would be all that worried about RC, let alone tsukiko, they arent really playing on his level yet. he would be wise to step softly around xykon of course

[David Argall]

While either could be alive and active, this is the story of the Order of the Stick. That means the members of the Scribble get bit parts, if that. The primary reason they are not investigating is that they would take over the story if they were allowed to. So some excuse must be found to keep them off camera. Serini is quite possibly dead. Girard? Maybe. In any case, he is not going to be able to destroy Xykon.

[OOTS_Supporter]

While either could be alive and active, this is the story of the Order of the Stick. That means the members of the Scribble get bit parts, if that. The primary reason they are not investigating is that they would take over the story if they were allowed to. So some excuse must be found to keep them off camera. Serini is quite possibly dead. Girard? Maybe. In any case, he is not going to be able to destroy Xykon.

Don't Halflings live long?

[NerfTW]

I thought it was pretty heavily implied that Serini was dead, since her diary is out there floating around.

[Zevox]

that being said, i dont think he would be all that worried about RC, let alone tsukiko, they arent really playing on his level yet. he would be wise to step softly around xykon of course
Tsukiko wouldn't be a serious threat to Girard, no, but she may be to Serini (she was a Rogue - even at epic level vs mid-high level, a powerful spellcaster like Tsukiko would be a threat to her if she had some will or fortitude save spells to use). Redcloak though is at least a 15th-level Cleric, which is nothing to sneeze at, even for someone like Girard. Plus he has whatever benefits the Crimson Mantle might give him beyond eternal youth and immunity to diseases. And Xykon would maul either of them - the members of their group with the best shot at beating Xykon already tried and failed; Dorukon in a straight-up wizard battle, Lirian with her Druidic powers, and Soon with his warrior skills and all the benefits of being a ghostly being of positive energy. Girard's illusionist talents can't kill Xykon, his magic is surely as not as powerful as Dorukon's anyway since he's not a single-class Wizard, and his warrior skills are bound to be well below Soon's, especially at his age; and Serini is a Rogue, which is just about the worst possible class to be vs a Lich.

As for which is alive, I suspect Girard is. Although it is a mere guess, he seemed to be one of the younger members of his Order, and he was, after all, an arcane caster, and those are known for finding ways to extend their lifespans (which likely explains why Dorukon outlived Soon, too). Serini likely is if she didn't die violently - Halflings have a lifespan around double that of a human, and she too seemed reasonably young, which for her race likely means in her 20s or 30s, out of a lifespan potentially as long as 200 years, and almost certain to be well over 100 years. Her diary is the only thing that casts doubts upon her fate, but who knows what the explanation is for how it fell into Xykon's hands.

Zevox

[Rotipher]

It's entirely possible that Girard never investigated the Azure City gate, because he thinks Dorukon already has. Remember, the only reason why Dorukon knew Lirian was killed is that he'd secretly kept in touch with her: the other OotScr members have no way of knowing how their old allies are faring.

If that's so, then Girard might've tried to scry on Azure City, found the area was blocked by the Cloister spell, and concluded that Dorukon had already dealt with the problem. It was one of Dorukon's magic items which Xykon used to impose the No-Scry-Zone effect, IIRC, so if Girard is familiar with his old comrade's Cloister spell, he might wrongly believe that's who cast it.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I thought it was pretty heavily implied that Serini was dead, since her diary is out there floating around.
It's possible for a diary to be lost without anything particularly adverse happening to the owner.

Serini seemed to be rather pragmatic abou the onth, suggesting it only as a last ditch effort to keep the members of the Order of the Scribble from killing each other. It's possible she may have even left the diary somewhere as a breadcrumb for future adventurers, as it would be inevitible that something would happen to the gates' guardians over time. It just happened to fall into the wrong hands at the wrong time.


And Xykon would maul either of them - the members of their group with the best shot at beating Xykon already tried and failed; Dorukon in a straight-up wizard battle, Lirian with her Druidic powers, and Soon with his warrior skills and all the benefits of being a ghostly being of positive energy.
Actually, Soon won. He was just about to finish Xykon and Redcloak off when Miko came in and destroyed the gate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) If it weren't for Miko, Xykon and Redcloak would be dead at Soon's ghostly hands.

[Zevox]

It's entirely possible that Girard never investigated the Azure City gate, because he thinks Dorukon already has. Remember, the only reason why Dorukon knew Lirian was killed is that he'd secretly kept in touch with her: the other OotScr members have no way of knowing how their old allies are faring.

If that's so, then Girard might've tried to scry on Azure City, found the area was blocked by the Cloister spell, and concluded that Dorukon had already dealt with the problem. It was one of Dorukon's magic items which Xykon used to impose the No-Scry-Zone effect, IIRC, so if Girard is familiar with his old comrade's Cloister spell, he might wrongly believe that's who cast it.
Possible. There is one potential flaw, though - Girard should know that Dorukon's Gate has fallen, thanks to the alarm system that alerted Shojo to the fall of it and Lirian's Gates in the first place. I suppose it's possible he believes Dorukon still lives and didn't fall defending it, but you'd think he would have tried to verify that and gotten suspicious when he was neither able to locate him alive nor dead. In any event, I suppose we won't know until and unless we meet Girard, or learn his fate if he's dead.


Actually, Soon won. He was just about to finish Xykon and Redcloak off when Miko came in and destroyed the gate. If it weren't for Miko, Xykon and Redcloak would be dead at Soon's ghostly hands.
Technically true, granted. Nevertheless, Xykon and Redcloak survived, so it's still accurate to say he failed to destroy him. And the original point I was making, that neither Girard nor Serini would stand a chance against Xykon, still holds, since neither of them has Soon's prowess and abilities.

Zevox

[Wraithfighter]

Another possibility:

Its a freaking huge distance from Azure City to either of the other two gates.

Neither ones are teleporters (well, probably not Girard), and given how the city's been taken over finding reliable passage there might be a tad difficult.

Also, the destruction of three whole gates may be an indication of a pattern to the two.

As in "Hey, something's destroying the gates that keep this world in one piece. Maybe I should defend this one, rather than go halfway across the world to find out maybe nothing."

You know, the whole "once circumstance, twice coincidence, thrice enemy action" thing.

[Zevox]

Another possibility:

Its a freaking huge distance from Azure City to either of the other two gates.

Neither ones are teleporters (well, probably not Girard), and given how the city's been taken over finding reliable passage there might be a tad difficult.

Also, the destruction of three whole gates may be an indication of a pattern to the two.

As in "Hey, something's destroying the gates that keep this world in one piece. Maybe I should defend this one, rather than go halfway across the world to find out maybe nothing."

You know, the whole "once circumstance, twice coincidence, thrice enemy action" thing.
Certainly a probable explanation for Serini, unless she has a wizard friend who can cast teleport anyway. For Girard though more problematic, since it's possible he can teleport himself. Maybe he banned conjuration and can't (though it would seem a bit foolish to deprive himself of that school - I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to think of illusionists as the sort to ban things like evocation and necromancy, not conjuration), but then there's also the possibility he knows someone who can. And in his case he could at least scry the first two Gates, although of course Cloister would block the third.

Zevox

[David Argall]

As for which is alive, I suspect Girard is. Although it is a mere guess, he seemed to be one of the younger members of his Order, and he was, after all, an arcane caster, and those are known for finding ways to extend their lifespans (which likely explains why Dorukon outlived Soon, too).
Dorukon is vaguely described as young, which would make his age around 90 when Xykon offed him. So no need for magic here.



Serini likely is if she didn't die violently - Halflings have a lifespan around double that of a human, and she too seemed reasonably young, which for her race likely means in her 20s or 30s, out of a lifespan potentially as long as 200 years, and almost certain to be well over 100 years.

While we have no figures worth much, Soon seems to have been already old when the Order of the Scribble started. The estimated birth in our timeline thread is born in 1065, and that is likely an upper estimate. 1050 may not be too soon.
As an experienced adventurer, and doing what amounts to a high level adventure, Soon would have selected experienced adventurers, which means well above the starting ages. So Serini was likely closer to 50 than 30. Add the 65 years since the adventure and she is definitely in the venerable range.
Girard is presumably still only old [if alive]. So assuming Serini died of old age doesn't really solve our problem. Still, it may be part of the solution.

[factotum]

Technically true, granted. Nevertheless, Xykon and Redcloak survived, so it's still accurate to say he failed to destroy him. And the original point I was making, that neither Girard nor Serini would stand a chance against Xykon, still holds, since neither of them has Soon's prowess and abilities.


We have no idea how Serini and Gerard compared to Soon in terms of abilities. They must have been in the same ballpark as him in terms of level or else they'd have been just dead weight in the party, and Paladins aren't known for being the most powerful class around. Of course, we don't know how much of an advantage Soon being a ghost gave him in the fight with Xykon...

[Rotipher]

For Girard though more problematic, since it's possible he can teleport himself. Maybe he banned conjuration and can't (though it would seem a bit foolish to deprive himself of that school - I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to think of illusionists as the sort to ban things like evocation and necromancy, not conjuration), but then there's also the possibility he knows someone who can. And in his case he could at least scry the first two Gates, although of course Cloister would block the third.


Wasn't Dorukon's gate under a Cloister effect as well? IIRC, we learned about that retroactively.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Technically true, granted. Nevertheless, Xykon and Redcloak survived, so it's still accurate to say he failed to destroy him.
Indeed. However, this failure should not be taken as a reflection of any of the combatant's abilities in a straight interference-free fight.


And the original point I was making, that neither Girard nor Serini would stand a chance against Xykon, still holds, since neither of them has Soon's prowess and abilities.
No. Their abilities are completely different.

Of course, as far as striaght up combat prowess, that may not be a strong factor. Particularly for Girard. As an illusionist, he's certainly used to defeating foes through clever tricks. This would prey upon Xykon's primary weakness. Of course, Girard would have to deal with Redcloak first.

I'm not particularly sure what Serini's strengths would be. Though she does have the connections necessary to populate a large dungeon with captured beasts of all sorts. Also, she's not "really the type for retiring." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) So she's probably spent a fair amount of time adventuring even after setting up her gate. As such she could possibly have a strong advantage over Xykon in terms of sheer number of levels (whatever that may be worth). Beyond that, who's to say what Serini can manage?


Also, the destruction of three whole gates may be an indication of a pattern to the two.

As in "Hey, something's destroying the gates that keep this world in one piece. Maybe I should defend this one, rather than go halfway across the world to find out maybe nothing."

You know, the whole "once circumstance, twice coincidence, thrice enemy action" thing.
But these people should also be smart enough to try and find out more about an obviously powerful enemy.

And mind you that all the Order of the Scribble members we've seen so far have had a number of agents that could help with the recon. Investigating the destruction of one gate does not require leaving the gate one is guarding. And that is exactly how Shojo and the Sapphire Guard handeled it.


As an experienced adventurer, and doing what amounts to a high level adventure, Soon would have selected experienced adventurers, which means well above the starting ages. So Serini was likely closer to 50 than 30. Add the 65 years since the adventure and she is definitely in the venerable range.
Level and age aren't particularly strongly linked. Particularly when it comes to active adventurers. Haley's only 24(ish) and is already 13th level. Granted, she's taken about 8 years to reach that (she seems to have started about as young as you possibly can be), but she started out as a thieve's guild member, which didn't give her much XP opportunities. The comic FAQ indicates that the Order of the Stick started around 7th-9th (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6a) level. So she's gained up to six levels in just over a year. At that rate, she can be epic level by her 27th birthday.

And remember, Serini seemed to have a taste for adventure. She likely started the adventuring life early. She's likely had more than ample opportunity to Power Level her way through the middle levels, lose a few levels to a vampire (several times over), and then still reach high levels by the time she was 30.

[Berserk Monk]

Maybe they're planning something right now, and the giant hasn't shown any of this. Also, they could be dead. In strip 196 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), it mentions that Dorukan is the "new kid" meaning he could be the youngest. Soon was already dead, and Dorukan was an old man when Xykon took over his castle. I haven't read SoD so I don't know how long Xykon had that gate before it was destroyed, but maybe Dorukan would had died of old age had Xykon never killed him. Finally, why do you think Girard and Serini would need replacements? Their gates are pretty autonomous. I'm assuming those illusions are permanent and those monsters should be able to take care of themselves.

[Lokasenna]

Wasn't Dorukon's gate under a Cloister effect as well? IIRC, we learned about that retroactively.

It was, but Cloister has a time limit of one week per caster level. It's been roughly a year since Dorukan's Gate fell, and there's negative evidence that it was in effect at that time. Remember, the Azure City diviners were scrying the wreckage, and Eugene noticed it. This implies that Cloister was not in effect at the time the Gate fell.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I haven't read SoD so I don't know how long Xykon had that gate before it was destroyed, but maybe Dorukan would had died of old age had Xykon never killed him.
I seem to have misplaced my copy of SOD, so I can't double check at the moment, but if memory serves…
…the panel before the fight for the Dungeon of Dorukan said "Six Months Ago"

In any case, Shojo stated the Order of the Scribble's adventures started sixty-six years ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) That'd most likely put Dorukan in his eighties or nineties at the time of his death.

EDIT: Oh, and for online support of the timeline, MitD references Xykon killing Durokan as happening "last year" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) when they are looking at Serini's diary.

[Zevox]

As an experienced adventurer, and doing what amounts to a high level adventure, Soon would have selected experienced adventurers, which means well above the starting ages. So Serini was likely closer to 50 than 30. Add the 65 years since the adventure and she is definitely in the venerable range.
Girard is presumably still only old [if alive]. So assuming Serini died of old age doesn't really solve our problem. Still, it may be part of the solution.
If Serini were that old when the Order formed, she'd already have been close to middle age for a Halfling. Possible, but not necessary. And as others have said, age and level are not necessarily related, especially for adventurers. The human members of the Order of the Stick are all in their 20s, and they're at least level 13. Simply put, we can only really guess at her age. Personally, she strikes me as young, so I'm more inclined to put her in her 30s than 40s. And even if she were 50-60 at the time of her adventures, she'd have to be one really unlucky Halfling to die of old age in her early 100s or 110s. Their max age on an average roll is 152 years, and they can live to a maximum of 200 years old. Girard is far more likely to have died of old age than her.

Girard would definitely be venerable if still alive, unless he used some magic to slow the aging process. Venerable age for humans starts at 70, and as previously noted, it has been 66 years since the Order of the Scribble's adventures.


We have no idea how Serini and Gerard compared to Soon in terms of abilities. They must have been in the same ballpark as him in terms of level or else they'd have been just dead weight in the party, and Paladins aren't known for being the most powerful class around. Of course, we don't know how much of an advantage Soon being a ghost gave him in the fight with Xykon...
We don't know directly, but in Serini's case we know for sure that she is from a class that is essentially the worst possible option for fighting a Lich. Rogues can't sneak attack the undead, generally don't use blunt weapons (required to bypass Lich DR), and have poor fortitude and will saves.

Girard we also know was an illusionist and two-weapon fighting warrior both, which could mean a number of things, but the simplest and probably most effective combination would be a few levels in Ranger plus many levels in Illusionist wizard, and possibly the Eldritch Knight PrC. In which case he is neither going to be as skilled a warrior as Soon, who was a straight warrior type, nor as skilled a caster as Dorukon, a straight wizard. He could likely outwit Xykon, but how would he destroy him? He simply lacks the power.

Being in his ghostly form also gave Soon quite an advantage. Any non-force spell Xykon cast had only a 50% chance to affect him, after all, as Redcloak pointed out. And since he was a being of positive energy, odds are he'd have quite the benefit when fighting against the Undead, which are harmed by positive energy.


Wasn't Dorukon's gate under a Cloister effect as well? IIRC, we learned about that retroactively.
That wears off upon the caster's death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), though. I'd expect Xykon's to have worn off with his body's destruction at Roy's hands. I suppose it's possible that Xykon's destruction didn't cause it to wear off, since his soul did retreat into his phylactery rather than passing into an afterlife, but odds are the spell had a time limit too, and it has been quite a while since that Gate fell, so Girard almost surely had plenty of time to check.


Indeed. However, this failure should not be taken as a reflection of any of the combatant's abilities in a straight interference-free fight.
Granted.


Of course, as far as striaght up combat prowess, that may not be a strong factor. Particularly for Girard. As an illusionist, he's certainly used to defeating foes through clever tricks. This would prey upon Xykon's primary weakness. Of course, Girard would have to deal with Redcloak first.
True, but as I mention above, how would Girard be able to destroy Xykon? His resistances and powers make that one hell of a task, and great as using illusions to dupe people may be, they don't do any damage. Unless he had some way to dupe Xykon into wading into a pool of magma or something, there's not much he can do but use his abilities to escape the Lich alive.

Zevox

[David Argall]

Level and age aren't particularly strongly linked.
None the less, they are somewhat linked. The more experienced adventurer is likely to be the older one. And we are trying to explain why these two have not shown up, not why they have. So the fact that it is possible they just died of old age is adequate for our purposes.


And remember, Serini seemed to have a taste for adventure. She likely started the adventuring life early. She's likely had more than ample opportunity to Power Level her way through the middle levels, lose a few levels to a vampire (several times over), and then still reach high levels by the time she was 30.
But of course, you gain XP largely by risking your life. So the more we say this, the more reasonable it is that Serini has since bit off more than she could chew, and so is also unavailable for this story.



Girard would definitely be venerable if still alive,
Somewhere I got the idea that Girard was half-elf, tho I can't support or reject it off hand. However, if we say he was human, his chance of dying of old age goes way up.

[TengYt]

There's also a chance they simply retired. Let's face it, even if he's alive Girard is getting on in years, he may have simply lost interest in defending the gates.
That said, there is another option. Rather than going to check out Soon's gate or whatever, Girard and Serini are busy defending their own gates. If there is some powerful guy out there destroying the gates, the last thing they'd want to do is run off to check it out when their own gate is in danger.

[Zevox]

Somewhere I got the idea that Girard was half-elf, tho I can't support or reject it off hand. However, if we say he was human, his chance of dying of old age goes way up.
Huh, that's odd. I can't recall ever seeing anything that would make me think he was anything other than human. And all the illustrations of him lack the pointed ears (or ear I guess, if we keep with theme established by Pompei) of a Half-Elf - instead we see the total lack of an illustrated ear common among humans and, well, any non-Elf race. I wonder where you got the idea.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Somewhere I got the idea that Girard was half-elf, tho I can't support or reject it off hand. However, if we say he was human, his chance of dying of old age goes way up.

We see both sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) of his head in this strip - no pointy ear.

[Traker]

We see both sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) of his head in this strip - no pointy ear.

You are right.

[OOTS_Supporter]

You are right.

One Word: Illusions

[[TS] Shadow]

What's the point in him hiding that he's an elf?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

True, but as I mention above, how would Girard be able to destroy Xykon?
Doesn't seem to me that it should be that hard for someone as intelligent as we expect Girard to be to whip up a very lethal trap. Given the importance of defending the gate, I imagine he's got plenty of experience in that arena, too.


None the less, they are somewhat linked. The more experienced adventurer is likely to be the older one. And we are trying to explain why these two have not shown up, not why they have. So the fact that it is possible they just died of old age is adequate for our purposes.
It's an adequate explanation, assuming you have sufficient evidence. Sixty-six years is enough time to keep death by old age a strong possibility, but not a guarantee for humans, as evidenced by both Durokan and Soon. But as Zevox points out, this scenario is actually quite unlikely for a halfling. Even a middle-age halfling.


But of course, you gain XP largely by risking your life. So the more we say this, the more reasonable it is that Serini has since bit off more than she could chew, and so is also unavailable for this story.
True. But then high level adventurers are also the ones that are quite adept at surviving these risks all the time. And keep in mind that most worlds don't have very many things to really challenge an epic level adventurer, so the truly life-threatining adventures they go on would be few and far between. We have no more evidence that Serini met her end this way than we do that she has met her end at all.


There's also a chance they simply retired. Let's face it, even if he's alive Girard is getting on in years, he may have simply lost interest in defending the gates.
I would hope the destruction of the entire universe being destroyed would keep one motivated to keep up the work. If not that, then the fact that the thing that would destroy the universe would destroy your soul—not even giving you an afterlife to look forward to.

Even if he's not able to do so personally, I'm quite sure Girard has provided for the defense of his gate over these past sixty-six years.

[Zevox]

Doesn't seem to me that it should be that hard for someone as intelligent as we expect Girard to be to whip up a very lethal trap. Given the importance of defending the gate, I imagine he's got plenty of experience in that arena, too.
For a normal human, no doubt. But this is a Lich we're talking about. Big DR to overcome for any non-magical trap, plenty of immunities to worry about for magic, and a lot of hit points to deal with just about any way you try to do it. Like I said, short of something with the potency of magma, it'd be pretty damn hard to kill Xykon just with an improvised trick or trap.

(And, just to be sure we're on the same page, I'm not referring to the defenses at his Gate - this whole discussion got started talking about him investigating the Azure City Gate and bumping into Xykon there. I've no doubt he has traps and tricks sufficient to stop someone like Xykon around his Gate - if he doesn't, well, he hasn't done a very good job of setting up defenses for it.)

Zevox

[Shhalahr Windrider]

For a normal human, no doubt. But this is a Lich we're talking about.
Most folks don't get to be epic level only fighting "normal humans". Girard knows what he's doing. He's got Trickster and Chessmaster written all over him. His traps are most certainly not just for the normals.


(And, just to be sure we're on the same page, I'm not referring to the defenses at his Gate - this whole discussion got started talking about him investigating the Azure City Gate and bumping into Xykon there. I've no doubt he has traps and tricks sufficient to stop someone like Xykon around his Gate - if he doesn't, well, he hasn't done a very good job of setting up defenses for it.)
Point is, he's an epic level trickster with tons of experience. The guy knows what he's doing.

[lord_khaine]

We don't know directly, but in Serini's case we know for sure that she is from a class that is essentially the worst possible option for fighting a Lich. Rogues can't sneak attack the undead, generally don't use blunt weapons (required to bypass Lich DR), and have poor fortitude and will saves

there are some faulty assumptions here, for a start there is nothing that stops a rogue from using blunt weapons, especaly not when she is fighting the undead, and there are several ways for rogues to sneak attack undeads.
that aside, i do think Serini's chances against Xykon are about as big as his chances of caching her.


Girard we also know was an illusionist and two-weapon fighting warrior both, which could mean a number of things, but the simplest and probably most effective combination would be a few levels in Ranger plus many levels in Illusionist wizard, and possibly the Eldritch Knight PrC. In which case he is neither going to be as skilled a warrior as Soon, who was a straight warrior type, nor as skilled a caster as Dorukon, a straight wizard. He could likely outwit Xykon, but how would he destroy him? He simply lacks the power.

i disagree about this as well, for a start illusions are pretty powerfull on their own, and just because Girard isnt as good a warrior as Soon, then it doesnt mean he isnt good enough to beat Xykon.


True, but as I mention above, how would Girard be able to destroy Xykon? His resistances and powers make that one hell of a task, and great as using illusions to dupe people may be, they don't do any damage. Unless he had some way to dupe Xykon into wading into a pool of magma or something, there's not much he can do but use his abilities to escape the Lich alive.

actualy, Illusions can do damage by copying spells, and in some extreme builds they can even do more damage than the spells they are copying.
also there is nothing that says Girard is limited to illusion spells.
he would have to bar something like 4 schools of spells before he wouldnt have anything anything left that could harm Xykon, if not then he would at the very least be able to do fun things, like tricking him into walking though a Prismatic wall (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsPtoR.html#prismatic-wall)

[David Argall]

Sixty-six years is enough time to keep death by old age a strong possibility, but not a guarantee for humans, as evidenced by both Durokan and Soon.
Soon of course was dead for most of that period. He was just able to still help defend the gate. Durokan is hinted to be the youngest of the crowd, making Girard's death more likely.


this scenario is actually quite unlikely for a halfling. Even a middle-age halfling.
I'd eyeball it at a couple of percent. Rather low, but not dismissible.



high level adventurers are also the ones that are quite adept at surviving these risks all the time. And keep in mind that most worlds don't have very many things to really challenge an epic level adventurer, so the truly life-threatining adventures they go on would be few and far between.
She has had 66 years to find them, and Epic does not stop you from rolling a one at the wrong time.


We have no more evidence that Serini met her end this way than we do that she has met her end at all.
Well of course. That is true of everyone all the time.
But that we know at least two ways she could be gone, and there are more. Those ways do add up. It should not be a shock for us to learn she is dead and will be playing no big part in the story.


Even if he's not able to do so personally, I'm quite sure Girard has provided for the defense of his gate over these past sixty-six years.
Definitely to be expected. But that does not mean he will be there, or that he has made any effort to find out what has been going on with the other gates.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well of course. That is true of everyone all the time.
But that we know at least two ways she could be gone, and there are more. Those ways do add up. It should not be a shock for us to learn she is dead and will be playing no big part in the story.
There are plenty of things that could kill anyone every day, in real life even, some even high risk. But we do not assume people to be dead on account of these.

In the end, these are Schrödinger's Adventurers and the box remains tightly sealed. We can't say a thing about them for we have no concrete observations.

[Zevox]

Most folks don't get to be epic level only fighting "normal humans". Girard knows what he's doing. He's got Trickster and Chessmaster written all over him. His traps are most certainly not just for the normals.

Point is, he's an epic level trickster with tons of experience. The guy knows what he's doing.
Yes yes, I'm well aware of this. But we're talking about him vs an equally epic-level Lich, and the Lich's turf. He's not going to be able to simply improv a trap on the spot that takes Xykon down immediately, no matter how much of a genius he is. It'd be one thing if he were facing him on his own turf, at his Gate or wherever he makes his home, or if he'd had significant time to prepare, but those aren't the situations I was referring to when I made the comment that began this conversation.

Zevox

[[TS] Shadow]

Thinking about it...wouldn't the Cloister spell be further motivation for Serini or Girard to check it out? Think about it: if they can't scry on the city, they'll need to see what's going on somehow. And I'm sure that they have lackeys that could do it for them: every other gate keeper had some (Soon+Paladins, Lirian+Trees, Dourkan+Slyphs)

[Elfey]

Shadow;5588102']Thinking about it...wouldn't the Cloister spell be further motivation for Serini or Girard to check it out? Think about it: if they can't scry on the city, they'll need to see what's going on somehow. And I'm sure that they have lackeys that could do it for them: every other gate keeper had some (Soon+Paladins, Lirian+Trees, Dourkan+Slyphs)

Cloister doesn't work against epic level scrying. That whole joke with the Epic inside with Roy on the Demiplane.

Now Girard and Serini may or may not be alive, but I think Girard would leave illusions to strongly suggest he was if only to mind screw with folks trying to reach the gate. Something of the Giant Floaty Head type.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Yes yes, I'm well aware of this. But we're talking about him vs an equally epic-level Lich, and the Lich's turf.
We don't know that they're "equally epic-level".


He's not going to be able to simply improv a trap on the spot that takes Xykon down immediately, no matter how much of a genius he is.
I'm not saying he'd "improv a trap on the spot." Something that could take down Xykon, and especially Redcloak takes a lot more effort than that.


It'd be one thing if he were facing him on his own turf, at his Gate or wherever he makes his home, or if he'd had significant time to prepare, but those aren't the situations I was referring to when I made the comment that began this conversation.
As to his own turf: Once again, he's an adventurer. Adventurers usually face their opponents on the opponent's turf. Girard's got the experience of outwitting foes on battlefields not of his own choosing. And then, of course is the issue that Xykon's going to head to Girard's gate anyway. If Girard discovers this, he can just sit back and wait for the lich to hand him the home turf advantage anyway.

As to time to prepare, if Girard is (1) alive, (2) willing to break his oath and check out Soon's gate, and (3) able to discover Xykon, there's still no telling how much time he has to prepare. Redcloak's kept Xykon's forces at Azure City for months, and he's going to keep them their until the hobgoblins can become self-sufficient. The things Redcloak wants are going to take even more time—possibly another year if he can keep Xykon distracted that long. We don't know how much time to prepare Girard would potentially have. Of course, Xykon's already getting impatient, so the timescale's probably not that generous.

[Zevox]

We don't know that they're "equally epic-level".
We know that they're both epic level, and that Xykon was strong enough to defeat two of Girard's companions in single combat, and put up a good fight against a third who was in a form that granted him many advantages against a Lich like him. Unless Girard has surpassed Dorukon, Lirian, and Soon significantly in levels, odds are he's about Xykon's power level.

(Besides, in a story like this, we can't exactly have a B-list NPC hero being much stronger than the main villain. 'Twould ruin the tale if he could wipe the floor with Xykon as soon as they encounter one another.)


I'm not saying he'd "improv a trap on the spot." Something that could take down Xykon, and especially Redcloak takes a lot more effort than that.
Then we're in agreement, since that was the situation I was referring to.


As to time to prepare, if Girard is (1) alive, (2) willing to break his oath and check out Soon's gate, and (3) able to discover Xykon, there's still no telling how much time he has to prepare.
That's assuming he discovers him from afar, without simultaneously being discovered by him. I was assuming he wouldn't.

And #2 isn't an issue. It stands to reason that if the Paladins of the Sapphire Guard were willing to check out Lirian's Gate after its destruction, the oath likely doesn't stop anyone from investigating destroyed Gates. Indeed, if it did, much of the point of having the alarm system would be gone.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Epic or not, Girard is at a major disadvantage against Xykon, in that his mind-affecting illusions will be useless against the lich. Further, will is a strong save for Xykon, which will aid him in disbelieving any shadow spells Girard tries to use.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Epic or not, Girard is at a major disadvantage against Xykon, in that his mind-affecting illusions will be useless against the lich. Further, will is a strong save for Xykon, which will aid him in disbelieving any shadow spells Girard tries to use.
Indeed. So if Girard were to confront them and wants to play to his strengths, he'd have to focus on using figments and glamers in a fashion that minimizes the possibility of Xykon or Redcloak interacting with them and getting a save for disbelief. Of course, figments and glamers tend to be marvelously open-ended and, as such, rife with possibilities for a creative mind.

Then, if he's a standard illusionist, he'd still have five other schools of magic to draw upon. And, aside from divination, we have no idea what those are.