Vorlon Empire v.s Galactic Empire

[ArlEammon]

The Vorlons ahve been discovered. They have been utilizing social engineering in the universe through messing with the Force, corrupting the Light side with the Dark side of the force in order to produce a perfect society built on order and obedience.

Unfortunately, the Jedi were not foreseen in the Vorlon's plan of building the Empire.. (They engineered Palpatine's bloodline with large amounts of Dark Side potential.) It was the Vorlons who created midichlorians.

Midichlorians are not The Force, rather, they are tiny containers of Force energy in the form of cells. Palpatine has realized he has been used as a pawn, and he is furious. Vader's Apprentice, (From the Force Unleashed,) Palpatine, and Vader are all against the Vorlon presence in the Star Wars Galaxy. Furthermore, Palpatine is allowing Dark Side Users to spread throughout his Empire as elite soldiers in order to face the Vorlon threat.

It has been a twenty five year stalemate against the Vorlons. Palpatine now has many troops and elite units of Force Users.. The Vorlons ahve their powerful telepaths and planet killers.

[snoopy13a]

Who are the Vorlons?

[ArlEammon]

WAIT!! SPOILERSS BEFORE YOU READ!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5

[Athaniar]

Does Palpatine have his Death Star to match the Planet Killers with?

[ArlEammon]

Yes he does.

[Innis Cabal]

The Vorlons win. They are near godlike in their power.

[ArlEammon]

The ships are powerful enough in the Galactic Empire to destroy many normal Vorlon ships.

[WarriorTribble]

Hard to say. I don't believe I've ever seen a Vorlon ship being destroyed on B5. That's not to say they're invincible, just that I can't quantify their power. Well there is the Planet Killer, but that was taken out by the unknown force of the remaining First Ones.

[ArlEammon]

Hard to say. I don't believe I've ever seen a Vorlon ship being destroyed on B5. That's not to say they're invincible, just that I can't quantify their power. Well there is the Planet Killer, but that was taken out by the unknown force of the remaining First Ones.

I assume that a Jedi can destroy a Vorlon ship

[Innis Cabal]

I think its really unlikely. Vorlon tech is far and above better then Empire tech. Its not a matter of outgunning them. Your sunk.

[warty goblin]

A point, the Deathstar is the size of a small moon (Starship dimensions (http://www.merzo.net/) gives 120km diameter for the first), and is the smallest thing in the Star Wars galaxy that I know of capable of reducing a planet to rubble.

The Vorlon planet killer, from the same website, has a length of just 45 km, and is capable of the same destructive output. This indicates, at least to me, that Vorlon technology of destruction is vastly more efficient.

Furthermore, at least judging from the movies, Star Wars space combat doctrine is ill suited to fighting a Babylon 5 type engagement. Since Babylon 5 hyperspace appears and functions completely differently than Star Wars, I feel it more than fair to treat them as separate entities.

Now consider a Star Destroyer. It's a very efficient design for concentrating its firepower forwards, or to the sides, top and bottom. The rear however is pretty much without significant firepower. Since the two hyperspaces are seperate, a Star Destroyer will have no way to anticipate a strike from a Vorlon ship, which would be able to leave hyperspace behind the Star Destroyer, and then shoot in the ass until it was destroyed. Given the engine layout on Star Destroyers, I do not see any arrangement of fleet ships that maintains maneuverability and eliminates this weakness.

This means that in any combat the Vorlon will have a significant tactical advantage simply due to the design of their ships. As previously indicated, there is good evidence that their ships are one for one technologically superior as well.

Moving on to telepaths vs. Jedi. This really isn't a contest. It takes years to train a Jedi into an effective combatant, and their ability is pretty much fixed from birth. They are also perishingly rare by all indications. It also takes years to train a telepath, but there are a lot of them, and as proved by Lyta Alexander, their ability is anything but fixed. On her own, without any training she was able to go from relatively harmless to capable of controlling pretty much the entire population of Babylon 5 in a few years from her original modification. There's nothing to stop the Vorlon from creating legions of people with abilities like that. Even if a Jedi is individually superior, which I doubt, there are going to be a hellova lot more telepaths.

The Galactic Empire is not known for treating aliens at all well. The Vorlons are very, very good at manipulating other species to do their bidding. I'd expect to see lots and lots of majority alien planets rebel consistently throughout the war.

All in all I'd forecast a decisive victory for the Vorlons. And if nothing else they simply make telepath ewoks.

[Innis Cabal]

Again, the God angel really gives them a boost against the regular mortal human creatures.

Just some info on em
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlon#Mental_capabilities

[Ms.Malbolge]

I would say the Vorlon win. Living ships, massive fleets, etc etc.

I would elaborate more but warty goblin already did.

[ArlEammon]

I would say the Vorlon win. Living ships, massive fleets, etc etc.

I would elaborate more but warty goblin already did.

I agree as well, but the OP gives the Vorlons a unique ability construct Force vessels.

[Mercenary Pen]

Does the empire have the Sun Crusher (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher)?

Because deliberately blowing up stars is one capability that the Vorlons have not demonstrated but the Galactic Empire have...

Also, concerning fire arcs of B5 vessels, has anyone noticed that almost no B5 warship has weapons covering anywhere other than the forward fire arc?

[warty goblin]

Does the empire have the Sun Crusher (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher)?

Because deliberately blowing up stars is one capability that the Vorlons have not demonstrated but the Galactic Empire have...

Also, concerning fire arcs of B5 vessels, has anyone noticed that almost no B5 warship has weapons covering anywhere other than the forward fire arc?

Destroying a star is irrelevant except as a sort of parlor trick, as long as you have the ability to blow up planets. I would also point out that in about a week after the commencement of hostilities, the Galactic Empire won't have a single secret left due to telepaths ripping information from people, then leaving them with no memory of the event. About a week after that I'd bet the mutinies would start in earnest.

On the firing arcs issue, I really disagree with you. There are plenty of examples throughout the show of warships engaging at odd angles. Sometime in season 3 for example an Omega Class Destroyer cripples another ship directly behind it without even altering course. The Mimbari Sharlin class also fires at some off angles as well. The Whitestars don't have that great of firing arcs, but they compensate through being insanely maneuverable.

[Krrth]

Vorlons, all the way. I mean, look at it this way: They are Immortal. Yo can't kill them. Their ships are immune to anything other that old one tech, the Empire would not even be able to damage the ships. Not to mention the Leta class Espers are.....scary.

[ArlEammon]

Vorlons, all the way. I mean, look at it this way: They are Immortal. Yo can't kill them. Their ships are immune to anything other that old one tech, the Empire would not even be able to damage the ships. Not to mention the Leta class Espers are.....scary.

Palpatine clones are pretty skilled.

[Krrth]

Palpatine clones are pretty skilled.

Yes, yes they are. However, unless you start getting into the Star Wars expanded universe, the Emperor isn't even in the same league. Even then.....I'm not sure the Expanded Universe could beat 'em. I mean, the Vorlons managed interdimensional travel...

[Innis Cabal]

As it stands in the OP it seems this is before the final moments of Return of the Jedi, no clones yet, well not offically. Expanded Universe gets wacky. THey still lose to near god like entities with tech levels so advanced they can decimate worlds with more then one singular "Super Weapon"

[ArlEammon]

As it stands in the OP it seems this is before the final moments of Return of the Jedi, no clones yet, well not offically. Expanded Universe gets wacky. THey still lose to near god like entities with tech levels so advanced they can decimate worlds with more then one singular "Super Weapon"

Hm.... I see. So even with Palpatine's powers of worm holiness he still loses?

[Krrth]

Hm.... I see. So even with Palpatine's powers of worm holiness he still loses?

Yes. The Vorlons create beings like Palpatine as weapons. Plural. Any given Vorlon is more powerful than any Jedi or Sith could ever be. The tech difference is way, way too big. The old tech Vorlons, Shadows, and the like use even manipulates time. If Palpatine somehow managed to become a big enough threat...they go back in time and kill him. Or speed up time in their home system, build a battlefleet, and attack....

[ArlEammon]

Yes. The Vorlons create beings like Palpatine as weapons. Plural. Any given Vorlon is more powerful than any Jedi or Sith could ever be. The tech difference is way, way too big. The old tech Vorlons, Shadows, and the like use even manipulates time. If Palpatine somehow managed to become a big enough threat...they go back in time and kill him. Or speed up time in their home system, build a battlefleet, and attack....

Hm. Interesting. I forbid time travel in the thread. But fair is fair, it does sound like Palpatine loses.

However, I think that pound for pound Galactic ships are stronger, don't you?

[Krrth]

Hm. Interesting. I forbid time travel in the thread. But fair is fair, it does sound like Palpatine loses.

However, I think that pound for pound Galactic ships are stronger, don't you?

Not really. Both Vorlon and Shadow ships are organic in nature, and adapt to just about anything. It took the entire reactor output of a space station to damage a Vorlon encounter suit. The ships are much, much worse.

[Innis Cabal]

No. We do not even see the Vorlons at their peak power level. The only creatures known to actually hurt them are creatures that can take over their minds, which is not an easy task.

Their warships are seen....a handful of time and even then they are not at War except with the Shadow which are about even with the Vorlons.

Vorlons tamper with genetic codes of other races for fun. They create dooms day devices out of -people- and have planetary defense forces that wipe out whole armada's with such ease their planets are not even remotely maped.

The Galactic Empire can't fight near god level creatures. They just don't have the power

[WarriorTribble]

Vorlons, Shadows, and the like use even manipulates time.When did they screw with time? There was that incident with Babylon 4, but that was the fault of some time rift that came from nowhere which was controlled by the Great Machine which seemed to be built by one of the younger races.

[Corvus]

I don't think we ever found out who exactly was responsible for making the Great Machine, though it was possibly Varn's people.

The Vorlon's do seem to be involved in it somehow, as there are two of them with Sinclair when he travels back through time with Babylon 4.

The Vorlon's are staggeringly old - they are after all members of the First Ones, the first species to achieve sentience

[Talkkno]

A point, the Deathstar is the size of a small moon (Starship dimensions (http://www.merzo.net/) gives 120km diameter for the first), and is the smallest thing in the Star Wars galaxy that I know of capable of reducing a planet to rubble.


False, the Darksaber was built mere gangsters and had the same destructive power of the Death Star, abliet stripped of its defenses, was about the size of a Super star Destroyer. And keep in them in mind the Death Star is major overkill power it uses to blow up planets to defeat planetary shields.

[Talkkno]

Not really. Both Vorlon and Shadow ships are organic in nature, and adapt to just about anything. It took the entire reactor output of a space station to damage a Vorlon encounter suit. The ships are much, much worse.

................
"Captain, I'm picking up an approaching ship."

"What can you tell me about it?"

"Oh my God, it's organic! What are we going to do, Captain?"

"There's not much we can do, Ensign. Organic technology is so far beyond our grasp that we can't even imagine the power they must have. All we have is high-powered guns, nuclear missiles, and our primitive metallic armour. What are you reading from their incredibly advanced bio-ship?"

"Their ship is soft and flexible. Its construction materials are semi-permeable and laced with a network of delicate circulation passages. Instead of using impermeable high-density materials, it's made from countless tiny thin-walled cells which tend to rapidly break down in the presence of corrosive chemicals or radiation."

"What? And we were supposed to be afraid of this? Open fire!"

SQUISH ...

[Krrth]

................
"Captain, I'm picking up an approaching ship."

"What can you tell me about it?"

"Oh my God, it's organic! What are we going to do, Captain?"

"There's not much we can do, Ensign. Organic technology is so far beyond our grasp that we can't even imagine the power they must have. All we have is high-powered guns, nuclear missiles, and our primitive metallic armour. What are you reading from their incredibly advanced bio-ship?"

"Their ship is soft and flexible. Its construction materials are semi-permeable and laced with a network of delicate circulation passages. Instead of using impermeable high-density materials, it's made from countless tiny thin-walled cells which tend to rapidly break down in the presence of corrosive chemicals or radiation."

"What? And we were supposed to be afraid of this? Open fire!"

SQUISH ...

...More along the lines of:
"Open fire!....why is it absorbing our fire?!!?"

The organic tech they use is specifically mentioned to absorb and adapt to all incoming weaponry.

[Innis Cabal]

...More along the lines of:
"Open fire!....why is it absorbing our fire?!!?"

The organic tech they use is specifically mentioned to absorb and adapt to all incoming weaponry.

More or less the above qft.

The Vorlons would not need to leave their ships, reacing out into the psyche's of the imperial troops and smushing them like rotten grapes would be more then effective.

[Yulian]

Not really. Both Vorlon and Shadow ships are organic in nature, and adapt to just about anything. It took the entire reactor output of a space station to damage a Vorlon encounter suit. The ships are much, much worse.

Not to mention that the Vorlons could leave their suits, phase through solid matter, and then actively assault high-level targets. Remember, they can be solid enough to carry a human hundreds of feet in the air (as when Kosh 1 caught Sheridan in midair). As we all know from RotJ, Palpatine can't fly.

- Yulian

[warty goblin]

False, the Darksaber was built mere gangsters and had the same destructive power of the Death Star, abliet stripped of its defenses, was about the size of a Super star Destroyer. And keep in them in mind the Death Star is major overkill power it uses to blow up planets to defeat planetary shields.

It also apparently didn't work. Your point?


Hm. Interesting. I forbid time travel in the thread. But fair is fair, it does sound like Palpatine loses.

However, I think that pound for pound Galactic ships are stronger, don't you?

Short version: no.

Long version: no, for the following three reasons.
1) The lighter ships are just that, light. The larger ships on Star Destroyer pattern hulls are even worse. They can't turn worth a damn for starters, and if watching every episode of Babylon 5 twice has taught me anything, it's that B5 ships, even capital class vessels, are maneuverable as hell and know how to use it. The size of an advantage this represents would be hard to overstate.

2) Nor would I a priori grant Star Wars ships a firepower advantage. Babylon 5 ships pack some serious firepower, although at the moment I don't have the time or materials for a particularly in depth comparison. I would note the following however. As discussed above, Vorlon ships will enjoy a decisive maneuverability advantage. If one watches Earth Alliance ships in combat they repeatedly demonstrate the ability to shoot enemy weaponsfire out of the sky, and I find it hard to believe that the Vorlons lack this capability. Since there does not appear to me that there is much difference between B5 plasma weaponry and turbolasers, I conclude that Vorlon ships will be able to shoot down turbolaser blasts. Given the slow speed exhibited by the projectiles of said, I further conclude that Vorlon point defense will be highly effective.

3) Vorlon weapons however tend to be beam type weapons in their few appearences, and beam weapons throughout Babylon 5 are shown as propagating more or less instantly. They certainly move much faster than either the discrete plasma burst weapons of Babylon 5 or turbolasers.

Combine parts 1 through 3 inclusive, and one finds that a Vorlon ship will be more maneuverable, equiped with potent active defenses and armed with faster moving weapons. In space with unguided weapons, higher velocity weapons = longer effective range. This means that a Vorlon fleet will be able to engage from well outside the obtimum range of a Galactic Empire fleet, and use its superior maneuverability to maintain this range while pounding the enemy. Any GE fire that does happen to be on a collision course with a Vorlon ship can be easily shot down.


It's rather like comparing a WWII battleship to a modern guided missile destroyer. The battleship may have bigger guns and better armor, but it has been rendered almost completely obscolete due to changes in the way wars are fought. Same thing here, Babylon 5 ships and Star Wars ships engage in space combat in different ways, and I would argue that any reasonable analysis of military tactics and strategy shows the Babylon 5 combat doctrine to enjoy massive advantages over that employed by Star Wars.

[Talkkno]

It also apparently didn't work. Your point?
The fact is they able to put that much power in such a small package, refuting your earlier point.


2) Nor would I a priori grant Star Wars ships a firepower advantage. Babylon 5 ships pack some serious firepower, although at the moment I don't have the time or materials for a particularly in depth comparison. I would note the following however. As discussed above, Vorlon ships will enjoy a decisive maneuverability advantage. If one watches Earth Alliance ships in combat they repeatedly demonstrate the ability to shoot enemy weaponsfire out of the sky, and I find it hard to believe that the Vorlons lack this capability. Since there does not appear to me that there is much difference between B5 plasma weaponry and turbolasers, I conclude that Vorlon ships will be able to shoot down turbolaser blasts. Given the slow speed exhibited by the projectiles of said, I further conclude that Vorlon point defense will be highly effective. The visable part of the turbolaser is just a tracer effect.



3) Vorlon weapons however tend to be beam type weapons in their few appearences, and beam weapons throughout Babylon 5 are shown as propagating more or less instantly. They certainly move much faster than either the discrete plasma burst weapons of Babylon 5 or turbolasers.

Combine parts 1 through 3 inclusive, and one finds that a Vorlon ship will be more maneuverable, equiped with potent active defenses and armed with faster moving weapons. In space with unguided weapons, higher velocity weapons = longer effective range. This means that a Vorlon fleet will be able to engage from well outside the obtimum range of a Galactic Empire fleet, and use its superior maneuverability to maintain this range while pounding the enemy. Any GE fire that does happen to be on a collision course with a Vorlon ship can be easily shot down.


Proof of longer ranges? Turbolasers have ranges in the light seconds.

[Talkkno]

Even if you what you say is true watry, the Empire can just steamroll them with vastly superior numbers
If we take take the stated dimensions of a Venator class ISD and scale as is appropriate to get the Imperator Class it works itself out to be roughly 1600x771x100 (we disregard the bridge tower as the actual height of the ship, as its significantly taller than the rest of the ship). Multiply by the area necessary to get the three dimensional volume of such a shape (1/2BxHxH (or 800x771x100)) and you get 61,680,000 M^3 of space. Now then, the DS2 clocks in at a whopping 900 kilometers in diameter. To get its volume (assuming completion) we use R^3(4/3)xPI or 450000^3(4/3) X 3.14... equals out to roughly 3.817035074E17 M^3 of production area. Now, if we multiply that by 60%, the commonly accepted percentage of completion... 2.290221044E17. Now, divide that by the above mentioned 61,680,000... and we get 3,713,069,138 Imperator Class Star Destroyers.

Take that number and divide it by a six month time period (182.5 days) and it equals out to... 20,345,584.32 ISDs per day. Or, if we really want to get nitpicky, 847,732.68 ISDs an hour, 14,128.878 ISDs a minute, or a whopping 235.4813 ISDs per second.

[ArlEammon]

Even if you what you say is true watry, the Empire can just steamroll them with vastly superior numbers
If we take take the stated dimensions of a Venator class ISD and scale as is appropriate to get the Imperator Class it works itself out to be roughly 1600x771x100 (we disregard the bridge tower as the actual height of the ship, as its significantly taller than the rest of the ship). Multiply by the area necessary to get the three dimensional volume of such a shape (1/2BxHxH (or 800x771x100)) and you get 61,680,000 M^3 of space. Now then, the DS2 clocks in at a whopping 900 kilometers in diameter. To get its volume (assuming completion) we use R^3(4/3)xPI or 450000^3(4/3) X 3.14... equals out to roughly 3.817035074E17 M^3 of production area. Now, if we multiply that by 60%, the commonly accepted percentage of completion... 2.290221044E17. Now, divide that by the above mentioned 61,680,000... and we get 3,713,069,138 Imperator Class Star Destroyers.

Take that number and divide it by a six month time period (182.5 days) and it equals out to... 20,345,584.32 ISDs per day. Or, if we really want to get nitpicky, 847,732.68 ISDs an hour, 14,128.878 ISDs a minute, or a whopping 235.4813 ISDs per second.


I'm worried that since the Vorlons can relocate their entire civilization in a moment's notice that they can just use hit and run tactics.

[factotum]

Can I just point out here that the Vorlon so-called "planet killer" did NOT entirely destroy planets in the way the Death Star did? There were reports of survivors on the ground of planets that had already been hit by the thing! Also, think of the Shadow planet killer--they were supposed to be on the same technological level as the Vorlons, yet their planet killer couldn't completely destroy a planet either; it essentially just levelled the surface using thousands of nuclear missiles.

On a similar note, there was at least one point in the series where Shadow battle crabs were destroyed using simple fusion bombs (e.g. when Londo Mollari ordered the destruction of the island where the Shadow base was on Centauri Prime--another instance where it happened in space, but I forget the episode). Many calculations have shown that Imperial turbolasers have megaton-range yields, which implies the normal guns of a Star Destroyer could destroy a Shadow ship. If they can destroy Shadow ships they can destroy Vorlon ones too, because they're on the same level of technology!

Lastly, the Vorlons and Shadows only have god-like technology compared to the other races in B5, but those races are not really that technologically advanced; and even then, the younger races have been shown to be capable of destroying Shadow ships when required.

In short, my conclusion is that the Vorlons get owned--hard--in this scenario.

[Alex Knight]

More to the point, the Empire's construction facilities will last as long as it takes for a Planet Killer to get into position. No Death Star will survive once a Killer spots it, and the Vorlon's adaptive armor and regenerating hulls will quickly make the Empire cry in panic.

[KnightDisciple]

...More along the lines of:
"Open fire!....why is it absorbing our fire?!!?"

The organic tech they use is specifically mentioned to absorb and adapt to all incoming weaponry.

Perhaps, but people were saying "organic ships" like it was some kind of stand-alone trump card. Self-adapting organics can be powerful, sure. Though, honestly, I have to wonder if they're really so innately superior...

[warty goblin]

The fact is they able to put that much power in such a small package, refuting your earlier point.

The visable part of the turbolaser is just a tracer effect.


Proof of longer ranges? Turbolasers have ranges in the light seconds.

Yeah so? In order to be a useful tracer, it has to be moving at the same velocity along the same trajectory as the actual projectile. This is also consistent with just about every shot of any weapon in the movies, where the explosion occurs at the moment the glowy bit reaches the target, not before or after.

Similarly on the range thing, just because the projectile travels that far doesn't mean it's a useful weapon for all of that distance. To use an extreme example a .22 longrifle and a 120mm smoothbore tank cannon fired in space have the same range (infinity), but against any particular target vastly different effective ranges. By effective range I mean the range over which the movement of the target and the mechanical innaccuracies of the weapon still allow for a reasonable hit chance. This is what is actually interesting in a combat scenario, not the theoretical maximum range. Vorlon weapons propagate nearly instantly, every bit of evidence in the movies suggests that turbolasers do not, hence Vorlon weapons have a much higher effective range. QED.


Even if you what you say is true watry, the Empire can just steamroll them with vastly superior numbers
If we take take the stated dimensions of a Venator class ISD and scale as is appropriate to get the Imperator Class it works itself out to be roughly 1600x771x100 (we disregard the bridge tower as the actual height of the ship, as its significantly taller than the rest of the ship). Multiply by the area necessary to get the three dimensional volume of such a shape (1/2BxHxH (or 800x771x100)) and you get 61,680,000 M^3 of space. Now then, the DS2 clocks in at a whopping 900 kilometers in diameter. To get its volume (assuming completion) we use R^3(4/3)xPI or 450000^3(4/3) X 3.14... equals out to roughly 3.817035074E17 M^3 of production area. Now, if we multiply that by 60%, the commonly accepted percentage of completion... 2.290221044E17. Now, divide that by the above mentioned 61,680,000... and we get 3,713,069,138 Imperator Class Star Destroyers.

Take that number and divide it by a six month time period (182.5 days) and it equals out to... 20,345,584.32 ISDs per day. Or, if we really want to get nitpicky, 847,732.68 ISDs an hour, 14,128.878 ISDs a minute, or a whopping 235.4813 ISDs per second.


This calculation is at best minimally informative since it is based on volume, not mass. That many Star Destroyers are quite likely to significantly outmass the Death Star since a much greater volume on each of them will be devoted to armor, engines, et cetera, and a lot less to dangerous open pits leading to reactor cores. 60% completion of DS2 is also most likely overoptimistic, since it assumes that one builds superstructure and hull at the same rate as interiors. As anybody who has done any sort of construction can tell you, this is not the case. You lay down the outside skeleton, plate it up, then build the center. Since we never saw the interior of the partially completed portions, I feel it logical to conclude that much of the bottom third was simply hull plating projecting over space yet to be filled.

Finally note that the GE needs to use a hellova lot of its space forces just to pacify its own systems- it can't afford to draw them together into a single huge fleet. The Vorlons don't have this problem, all they have to do is to drop a couple of improved telepaths onto a world, and everybody loves them. The implications of these telepaths are startling to say the least, since they allow you complete access to the enemy's information, and even better, complete ability to feed them false information. Entire planets could fall and fleets turn traitor without the GE knowing about it, until it suited the Vorlon's purposes.

[Talkkno]

This calculation is at best minimally informative since it is based on volume, not mass. That many Star Destroyers are quite likely to significantly outmass the Death Star since a much greater volume on each of them will be devoted to armor, engines, et cetera, and a lot less to dangerous open pits leading to reactor cores. 60% completion of DS2 is also most likely overoptimistic, since it assumes that one builds superstructure and hull at the same rate as interiors. As anybody who has done any sort of construction can tell you, this is not the case. You lay down the outside skeleton, plate it up, then build the center. Since we never saw the interior of the partially completed portions, I feel it logical to conclude that much of the bottom third was simply hull plating projecting over space yet to be filled.
This is still a very conservative estimate, as any engineer will tell you, its much easir to build a lot of small buildings covering the same area of the really big building of equal square footage. Besides the calculations simply assume the DS has the same average density as a Star Destroyer. Also you can see in the Star wars incredible cross sections that the DS1 didn't have any huge empty spaces. And you still haven't proven that the Vorlons have even the fraction of industrial capacity.



Finally note that the GE needs to use a hellova lot of its space forces just to pacify its own systems- it can't afford to draw them together into a single huge fleet. The Vorlons don't have this problem, all they have to do is to drop a couple of improved telepaths onto a world, and everybody loves them. The implications of these telepaths are startling to say the least, since they allow you complete access to the enemy's information, and even better, complete ability to feed them false information. Entire planets could fall and fleets turn traitor without the GE knowing about it, until it suited the Vorlon's purposes.
"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds people live their lives under Imperial rule without ever seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead."
-Thrawn :P
In RoTJ novel states that Palpatine was viewed as pretty much a kindly old man.

[Poison_Fish]

Just because the GE is doing it's job doesn't mean it'd lessen the telepathic WMD's that the Vorlons could create.

The biggest problem with steam rolling the Vorlons is that I imagine the GE could never find them, much less catch up to them. Along with the fact that, IMO, the Vorlons have quite a bit more effective weapons.

On a separate note. Just because it's named planet killer doesn't mean it needs to physically destroy the planet.

[Talkkno]

The biggest problem with steam rolling the Vorlons is that I imagine the GE could never find them, much less catch up to them. Along with the fact that, IMO, the Vorlons have quite a bit more effective weapons.



Venator-class Star Destroyers are capable of teraton yields for turbolasers, which by the way Venator's are considered obsolete by the time of the Empire.

[Illiterate Scribe]

...More along the lines of:
"Open fire!....why is it absorbing our fire?!!?"

The organic tech they use is specifically mentioned to absorb and adapt to all incoming weaponry.

What exactly does this mean? Surely piling enough energy into the whole ship enough to raise its temperature to above its melting point will melt the entire ship. Tearing bits off it with high velocity projectiles will decrease its mass, and blow up vital systems. Not everything can be adapted to.

It's like a tree vs. a house - if you fire a missile at each one, sure, the house will be wrecked until someone repairs it, and the tree might grow back over time, but just because it's organic doesn't mean it's invincible.

[Talkkno]

What exactly does this mean? Surely piling enough energy into the whole ship enough to raise its temperature to above its melting point will melt the entire ship. Tearing bits off it with high velocity projectiles will decrease its mass, and blow up vital systems. Not everything can be adapted to.

It's like a tree vs. a house - if you fire a missile at each one, sure, the house will be wrecked until someone repairs it, and the tree might grow back over time, but just because it's organic doesn't mean it's invincible.
Otherwise it would be no limits fallacy.

[Wardog]

Much as I like B5, I think people are overestimating the abilities of the Vorlons based on how awsome they are in the B5 universe.

Consider that in the SW universe, technology has reached the level where you can cross the galaxy in a few days. (B5 hyperspace travel IIRC allows you to travel several lightyears in a day).

Consider too that most (maybe all) the ships that you see the Vorlons and Shadows masacaring don't have shields, and I'm not sure that the Vorlons and Shadows had shields themselves (just tougher armour than everyone else, that could heal and adapt, provided it wasn't destroyed outright).

Also, I think most B5 capital ships were about 300m long, compared to the 1-2km capital ships of Starwars, so even without considering shields, the Vorlons would be used to fighting much smaller and weaker ships than those of the Empire.

Finally, while I'm somewhat sceptical about the validity of some of the expanded universe claims, especially some of the statistics people have come up with for e.g. Stardestroyer firepower, if you do accept them, they seem to indicate that anything a Vorlon or Shadow plannet killer could do, a couple of few Star Destroyers could also do.


So in terms of Toughness and Firepower, I think the Empire would likely match or even exceed the Vorlons.


That said, the Vorlons will definetly have a manuvourability advantage, as they can circle-strafe round a Star Destroyer. And as I'm sure a Star Fury could pwn any SW fighter, I'm sure the Vorlon's fighters would be even more devestating.


I'm not really sure how a Force-user vs. telepath battle would go, as I can't quite remember what all their abilities are (although I would suggest that EU Force-user > telepath > movie Force-user).

[KnightDisciple]

Of course, then we need to ask: what about tractor beams? What if a SD just snagged a Vorlon ship and pummeled it to death?
Also, I do wonder about your estimates on fighters. While TIEs would die horribly (as is their lot in life), X-wings and the like may fare better.
As well, the Empire may have tactical flexibility on their side. Thrawn's a brilliant commander, no matter what level of brilliance you assign.
Vorlons, on the other hand, likely would rely on having "better" ships, and thinking they're cooler by virtue of age.

[warty goblin]

Venator-class Star Destroyers are capable of teraton yields for turbolasers, which by the way Venator's are considered obsolete by the time of the Empire.

Is this based on the calculation from the destruction of the asteroid in Empire Strikes Back? I've never found that to be particularly convincing personally, since the rock didn't appear to be destroyed completely, and scale was more or less impossible to determine. It's a sort of estimate, not much more.


Also, as I keep pointing out, it doesn't matter how powerful your guns are if they can't hit, and nobody has presented me with anything like an argument for them being able to do that.

For a real world example of what I mean, consider this. The Iowa class battleships has either the most powerful or the second most powerful guns ever put on a ship. They have a maximum range of 24 miles and fire sixteen inch shells weighing over a ton. A modern destroyer mounts guns firing at best five inch shells, have far less armor, and are in general slower. Guess which ship is considered relevant in modern warfare?

Well, sort of both, since the Iowa class was retrofitted with missile launchers. Setting that aside for a moment however, the destroyer, despite being smaller, less well protected with far smaller guns, is the better ship, because its missiles have far longer ranges than 24 miles.

Same thing here, its not the size of the weapon or the ship that counts in space, its the range of its guns. Being big just means you are easier to hit and have to burn more energy to turn around.



This is still a very conservative estimate, as any engineer will tell you, its much easir to build a lot of small buildings covering the same area of the really big building of equal square footage. Besides the calculations simply assume the DS has the same average density as a Star Destroyer. Also you can see in the Star wars incredible cross sections that the DS1 didn't have any huge empty spaces. And you still haven't proven that the Vorlons have even the fraction of industrial capacity.


"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds people live their lives under Imperial rule without ever seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead."
-Thrawn :P
In RoTJ novel states that Palpatine was viewed as pretty much a kindly old man.
So was Stalin, didn't mean he didn't devote a lot of time and energy to keeping people scared though.:smalltongue:

The Vorlons don't need a fraction of the industrial capacity, they need enough to survive for about a week, at which point the Empire will pretty much hand them the reigns of power without any further resistance.

I never said they needed the fleet to keep their worlds terrified. They clearly need it for something though, since they have it. Border patrols, tarrifs, squashing smuggling and piracy, all of these require that the ships be spread out, and all of which are pretty clearly vital for the continued function of the Empire.

[Illiterate Scribe]

So was Stalin, didn't mean he didn't devote a lot of time and energy to keeping people scared though.:smalltongue:


Without straying into politics, I don't think anyone other than the US, UK, and France saw Stalin as 'Uncle Joe'. Sure, there was a hero cult around him, but the speed of de-Stalinisation under Khrushchev shows that there was a lot of fear underlying it.

[PsyBlade]

As I recall, both series use close-range tactics. The higher maneuverability of B5 ships give quite an advantage here. The Minbari White Stars also did have shields. Gravity-based shielding. You need shots more powerful than the shields to do anything worthwhile, and you're not weakening the shields with the ineffective stuff.

[warty goblin]

Without straying into politics, I don't think anyone other than the US, UK, and France saw Stalin as 'Uncle Joe'. Sure, there was a hero cult around him, but the speed of de-Stalinisation under Khrushchev shows that there was a lot of fear underlying it.

That was rather my point, the view of Stalin was more or less a dichotomy. He was both loved and feared by a lot of people, and hated by others.

[Poison_Fish]

On the note of Starfuries vs. Star Wars fighters, the Starfury's are actually better space fighters. That's because it's specifically what their designed to do, fight in space. They have the capability to be far more maneuverable then any star wars fighter was ever shown to be. Launching a starfury (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p04J5N_SEjA). Earth force fighter files from the DVD extra's. Some spoilers following that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGNE-2uTGxQ&feature=related). Thrusters designed with zero-g in mind will end up function better. That being said, we are talking of the Vorlons here. However, their fighters are capable of similar if not more impressive movement.

[Talkkno]

Is this based on the calculation from the destruction of the asteroid in Empire Strikes Back? I've never found that to be particularly convincing personally, since the rock didn't appear to be destroyed completely, and scale was more or less impossible to determine. It's a sort of estimate, not much more.
Stated directly in the ROTS ICS



Also, as I keep pointing out, it doesn't matter how powerful your guns are if they can't hit, and nobody has presented me with anything like an argument for them being able to do that.

For a real world example of what I mean, consider this. The Iowa class battleships has either the most powerful or the second most powerful guns ever put on a ship. They have a maximum range of 24 miles and fire sixteen inch shells weighing over a ton. A modern destroyer mounts guns firing at best five inch shells, have far less armor, and are in general slower. Guess which ship is considered relevant in modern warfare?

Well, sort of both, since the Iowa class was retrofitted with missile launchers. Setting that aside for a moment however, the destroyer, despite being smaller, less well protected with far smaller guns, is the better ship, because its missiles have far longer ranges than 24 miles.

Same thing here, its not the size of the weapon or the ship that counts in space, its the range of its guns. Being big just means you are easier to hit and have to burn more energy to turn around.
Star Destroyer point defense weaponary can easily shoot down proton torpedoes which can execute 72,000g turns, while being much smaller then any ship.



The Vorlons don't need a fraction of the industrial capacity, they need enough to survive for about a week, at which point the Empire will pretty much hand them the reigns of power without any further resistance.
Is Vorlon FTL even fast enough to get anywhere important? What is the range of this psychic wank and is it capable of penetrating shields?

[Talkkno]

On the note of Starfuries vs. Star Wars fighters, the Starfury's are actually better space fighters. That's because it's specifically what their designed to do, fight in space. They have the capability to be far more maneuverable then any star wars fighter was ever shown to be. Launching a starfury (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p04J5N_SEjA). Earth force fighter files from the DVD extra's. Some spoilers following that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGNE-2uTGxQ&feature=related). Thrusters designed with zero-g in mind will end up function better. That being said, we are talking of the Vorlons here. However, their fighters are capable of similar if not more impressive movement.

How much do they depend on rely computer and sensor aid? Star Wars pilots are trained in dealing with extremely high levels of ECM and jamming, to the point during the trench run of the DS1, it was noted it actually distorts space-time and reduces the maneuverability of spacecraft, not the mention that makes sensors useless, even fighters routinely carry ECM.

[warty goblin]

Stated directly in the ROTS ICS


Works for me


Star Destroyer point defense weaponary can easily shoot down proton torpedoes which can execute 72,000g turns, while being much smaller then any ship.

Given the frequency with which fighters (read: large maneuverable missiles) fly all over capital ships in the movies, I find this hard to believe as anything but EU stuff. Since in the movies large ships are pretty much shown to be helpless against small stuff, I'll use that value over the stuff in the writing.



Is Vorlon FTL even fast enough to get anywhere important? What is the range of this psychic wank and is it capable of penetrating shields?

All it has to be fast enough to do is to get a couple people onto a couple planets. These people then mentally enslave everyone they meet without any record of this happening anywhere (even on surveillance recordings). They then hop a shuttle to another planet and do the same thing, or get themselves onto warships and take them over from the inside without any record of their ever having been there. On the off chance that somebody finds out about this (like a Jedi) they can pull the force choke's big and infinitely more badass cousin: telekinetic aneurism. Pretty much instant braindeath, followed shortly by actual death, and no signs of anything unnatural having happened.

The chances of a teep's powers, particularly a Vorlon upgunned teep, not working through shields is pretty small. Lyta Alexander was capable of transmitting a pulse across about half a galaxy (give or take), and altering a security recording to show something completely different in real time while having a conversation. Also, as pointed out, Whitestars are shielded, and Lyta works just fine from them.

As for jamming distorting space-time, that's sort of a given. Mass/energy tends to, you know, do that. Having enough jamming to detectably warp space time would require a hell of a lot of photons in an area, probably enough to cause people to start explosively vaporizing. Since there was no evidence during the movies of this occurring (gravitational lensing, spontaneous combustion etc), I once again discount this as inconsistent with primary canon and hence irrelevant.

[Talkkno]

Works for me

Given the frequency with which fighters (read: large maneuverable missiles) fly all over capital ships in the movies, I find this hard to believe as anything but EU stuff. Since in the movies large ships are pretty much shown to be helpless against small stuff, I'll use that value over the stuff in the writing.
In the beginning stages of the Battle of Endor, when hordes of Imperial fighters and bombers attacked without support and swarmed over the Rebel fleet, but were unable to destroy or seriously damage a single warship, so i don't see your point of saying there "helpless." Plus Proton torpedoes rely on sensor systems are apt to heavily jammed, while a human pilot being less reliant on them.




As for jamming distorting space-time, that's sort of a given. Mass/energy tends to, you know, do that. Having enough jamming to detectably warp space time would require a hell of a lot of photons in an area, probably enough to cause people to start explosively vaporizing. Since there was no evidence during the movies of this occurring (gravitational lensing, spontaneous combustion etc), I once again discount this as inconsistent with primary canon and hence irrelevant.

The type of jamming used to distort sensors are different from those used to slow down fighters are different. Technobabbly "field generators" noted in the ANH novelization

[warty goblin]

In the beginning stages of the Battle of Endor, when hordes of Imperial fighters and bombers attacked without support and swarmed over the Rebel fleet, but were unable to destroy or seriously damage a single warship, so i don't see your point of saying there "helpless." Plus Proton torpedoes rely on sensor systems are apt to heavily jammed, while a human pilot being less reliant on them.

I meant helpless as in 'couldn't effectively kill.' If proton torpedoes are more easily jammed than the mk. 1 eyeball, it's probably due to design issues. Designing a missile capable of seeing a target in the visible spectrum and locking on to it isn't trivial by any means, but is certainly doable with higher resolution than a human can manage as well. Bottom line, if your missiles are being jammed in space, but you can see the target just fine, there's a very good chance your missiles suck.



The type of jamming used to distort sensors are different from those used to slow down fighters are different. Technobabbly "field generators" noted in the ANH novelization

My point still stands however. The only way to distort space-time is with matter or energy (and e=mc^2 gives the conversion between the two). To get a certain amount of distortion, you need a certain amount of matter/energy, that's all there is to it. Furthermore because a little bit of mass equals a lot of energy, and it takes a lot of mass to curve spacetime noticably, it takes a hellova lot of energy to do the same thing. Any sensible missile will be targeted by some combination of radar, infrared and visible light, so you need to use these to jam it. By the time you bent spacetime enough to effect the flight of a missile with jamming, the IR you'd be giving off would be causing things to spontaneously ionize at the very least. Again I conclude that since the effects of such a jamming were not in any form observed in the movies, which are primary canon, it did not occur to a meaningful extent.

[Talkkno]

I meant helpless as in 'couldn't effectively kill.' If proton torpedoes are more easily jammed than the mk. 1 eyeball, it's probably due to design issues. Designing a missile capable of seeing a target in the visible spectrum and locking on to it isn't trivial by any means, but is certainly doable with higher resolution than a human can manage as well. Bottom line, if your missiles are being jammed in space, but you can see the target just fine, there's a very good chance your missiles suck.

I'll concede that Star Destroyer's have poor point defense armament, but the complement of 72 fighters partially makes up for it. But the Empire has designedthe Lancer frigates to specifically counter this weakness. Which is so good at it that it the best [some which at that point were force sensitive but untrained.] Rebel pilots have a more losses then wins in combat simulations against the lancer frigates.


My point still stands however. The only way to distort space-time is with matter or energy (and e=mc^2 gives the conversion between the two). To get a certain amount of distortion, you need a certain amount of matter/energy, that's all there is to it. Furthermore because a little bit of mass equals a lot of energy, and it takes a lot of mass to curve spacetime noticably, it takes a hellova lot of energy to do the same thing. Any sensible missile will be targeted by some combination of radar, infrared and visible light, so you need to use these to jam it. By the time you bent spacetime enough to effect the flight of a missile with jamming, the IR you'd be giving off would be causing things to spontaneously ionize at the very least. Again I conclude that since the effects of such a jamming were not in any form observed in the movies, which are primary canon, it did not occur to a meaningful extent.
Conceded.

[Athaniar]

Would an Interdictor function with B5 hyperspace?

[warty goblin]

Would an Interdictor function with B5 hyperspace?

Almost certainly not. Interdictors work by creating a really big artificial gravity well right? B5 ships pop into and out of hyperspace near planets all the time no problem, the only limiting factor being the accuracy of their engines. There may be some sort of interdiction field that would work, but gravity alone isn't it.

[Ubiq]

Don't Vorlons use antimatter reactors?

If so, they simply can't generate enough energy to be a palpable threat to the Empire.

[RPGuru1331]

Don't Vorlons use antimatter reactors?

If so, they simply can't generate enough energy to be a palpable threat to the Empire.

I don't know why I looked. But seeing as I did, small comment.

...If the crowning jewel in destructive power for the Empire was a planet killer, and the Vorlons can also make planet killers, your line of reasoning is suspect.

[Talkkno]

I don't know why I looked. But seeing as I did, small comment.

...If the crowning jewel in destructive power for the Empire was a planet killer, and the Vorlons can also make planet killers, your line of reasoning is suspect.
Its already been concluded the Vorlon's planet killer is no where near as strong as the Death Star, for the Death Star blew a planet into pieces, it didn't even kill everyone on the planet evidenced by distress calls sent out. A single Star Destroyer can reduce a planet "a civilized world to slag", Imperial Sourcebook.
Leaving no possibility of survivors at all.

[WarriorTribble]

Its already been concluded the Vorlon's planet killer is no where near as strong as the Death Star, for the Death Star blew a planet into pieces, it didn't even kill everyone on the planet evidenced by distress calls sent out.Well, we really don't know the strength of the Vorlon Planet Killer since it's never been shown on screen, but where did you get it didn't kill everyone on the planet? Vorlons blocked all frequencies before attacking, and after the attack Ivonava (stations second in command) notes it'll take several hours to even assess the aftermass of the attack, not exactly "we got survivors." She also asks people who came from the planets targeted by the planet killer to see if their loved ones survived by leaving the planet before the attack. Again implying the Vorlons didn't leave survivors.

[RPGuru1331]

Its already been concluded the Vorlon's planet killer is no where near as strong as the Death Star, for the Death Star blew a planet into pieces, it didn't even kill everyone on the planet evidenced by distress calls sent out. A single Star Destroyer can reduce a planet "a civilized world to slag", Imperial Sourcebook.
Leaving no possibility of survivors at all.
{Scrubbed}

[Talkkno]

Well, we really don't know the strength of the Vorlon Planet Killer since it's never been shown on screen, but where did you get it didn't kill everyone on the planet? Vorlons blocked all frequencies before attacking, and after the attack Ivonava (stations second in command) notes it'll take several hours to even assess the aftermass of the attack, not exactly "we got survivors." She also asks people who came from the planets targeted by the planet killer to see if their loved ones survived by leaving the planet before the attack. Again implying the Vorlons didn't leave survivors.
Ivanova's distress call
" Survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale. We continue to need medical ships, transports, anything that can fly. We are in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground."
Since it didn't even blow the atmosphere away, it is weaker then a single Imperial-class Star Destroyer.

[Talkkno]

{Scrubbed}

Your point? What does that have to anything with the debate?:smallannoyed:

[Tyrant]

Well, we really don't know the strength of the Vorlon Planet Killer since it's never been shown on screen, but where did you get it didn't kill everyone on the planet? Vorlons blocked all frequencies before attacking, and after the attack Ivonava (stations second in command) notes it'll take several hours to even assess the aftermass of the attack, not exactly "we got survivors." She also asks people who came from the planets targeted by the planet killer to see if their loved ones survived by leaving the planet before the attack. Again implying the Vorlons didn't leave survivors.

But, either way (survivors or no), is the planet still there? If so, it's not as powerful. The Death Star leaves a field of debris, not a planet with no people. A single Star Destroyer can kill everything on a planet. The Empire has lots and lots of those. I would guess far more than the Vorlons have planet killers at any rate.

It's been a while since I watched B5, but I don't recall the Vorlons controlling every single race like puppets. They had implanted the idea that the Shadows were generally bad news in some races (even then, people were able to ignore it and side with the Shadows) but they weren't controlling the government of Earth for instance. As I recall, the Centauri for instance weren't even given that "shadows/spidery things=bad, angelic things=good gene" at all based on what Molari says when Kosh reveals his true form. A major race completely left out of the Vorlons plans. I don't believe they are anwhere near as all powerful as they are made out to be.

The Vorlons can possibly do the things some say they can do. The Empire does the things some say they can do. They don't have the hypothetical ability to destroy planets or whole solar systems, they actually do it. Having the will to do things is as important as the ability to do them. Palpatine has the will to destroy everything that opposes him if it comes down to it (or just to make an example). I don't recall the Vorlons being too keen on direct action or puppet controlling whole societies. Even if they can, will they? With Palpatine, there is no doubt as to the answer.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You know it takes a single Imperial-class Star Destroyer days to render a planet uninhabitable, right? Multiple ISDs or an Executor-class could do it in hours, but still. The Vorlon "planet-killers", as I understand, wiped out most of a planetary surface in a single barrage. That's a fair difference in power-scale. Sure, the Vorlons may not have a Death Star, but they can at least match the Empire's capships in raw firepower.

[RPGuru1331]

Your point? What does that have to anything with the debate?:smallannoyed:

You are behaving like a Star Destroyer is a great accomplishment because it can make a world not have people on it any more. The human race in the real world is more then capable of this is in real life, so if I were you, I'd focus on the thing we can't do (Making there not be a planet any more)

{scrubbed}

[Tyrant]

You are behaving like a Star Destroyer is a great accomplishment because it can make a world not have people on it any more. The human race in the real world is more then capable of this is in real life, so if I were you, I'd focus on the thing we can't do (Making there not be a planet any more)
I believe his point is that a Star Destroyer can accomplish what a Vorlon planet killer can. If that is true, which it is, then the Vorlons aren't sitting in a great position. How many planet killers can they possibly have? Anywhere near the tens of thousands of Star Destroyers the Empire has? I'm guessing not. That's his point, I believe. I quite easily gather that from the previous posts.

As to making a big deal out of it, I don't believe he is. In B5, it is a big deal that the Vorlons and Shadows can wipe out life on a planet. He is saying, so can the Empire and they don't need specialized ships to do it. Their specialized ship obliterates the entire planet. A considerable difference in firepower, not even close as others suggested.

And I honestly couldn't care less about the debate. Your posts by themselves see to that, and if I looked at others I would probably see the feeling strengthened.
{Scrubbed}


Some general questions for the thread. It's been a while since I watched the series, so my memory is a little fuzzy
1) How many planets are under Earth control?
2) Likewise the other major powers (Centauri, Minbari, the Narn I guess, SHadows, Vorlons, etc)?
3) How big of an area does this collection of powers control in relation to the overall galaxy?
4) How long would it take one of their ships to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other?
5) What kind of power output do their weapons have?

[RPGuru1331]

I believe his point is that a Star Destroyer can accomplish what a Vorlon planet killer can. If that is true, which it is, then the Vorlons aren't sitting in a great position. How many planet killers can they possibly have? Anywhere near the tens of thousands of Star Destroyers the Empire has? I'm guessing not. That's his point, I believe. I quite easily gather that from the previous posts.
I gathered "A Star Destroyer can nuke everyone off of a planet", from his quotation. This is no great accomplishment; Current nuclear arsenals can accomplish this quite a few times over at this point. Even with all the 'disarmament'.


As to making a big deal out of it, I don't believe he is. In B5, it is a big deal that the Vorlons and Shadows can wipe out life on a planet. He is saying, so can the Empire and they don't need specialized ships to do it. Their specialized ship obliterates the entire planet. A considerable difference in firepower, not even close as others suggested.
I find that suspect, since science fiction settings are (and B5 is no exception) placed beyond human capabilities. And we really, truly can destroy everything on a planet as it stands. I suspect that it was more like "They can wipe out everything on the planet with one ship, through the defenses"

{Scrubbed}

[Ubiq]

...If the crowning jewel in destructive power for the Empire was a planet killer, and the Vorlons can also make planet killers, your line of reasoning is suspect.

Because one such event automatically equals another such event. Despite the fact that a Death Star is more than capable of punching through planetary shields in a universe where even a hastily constructed base ran by people with minimal resources can put a shield capable of resisting an entire fleet of ships with the ability to slag a planet. How many planetary shields do we see in Babylon 5 again?

Even then, from what I understand, the Vorlons use hyperspace in some weird fashion to kill a planet (which, from what I gather, means sterilizing or largely sterilizing the surface rather than accelerating bits of the planet to escape velocity and beyond) while a Death Star is really just eight really, really big turbolasers hooked up to an unbelievably massive reactor. The former could be done with a lot less energy than the latter.

[RPGuru1331]

Because one such event automatically equals another such event. Despite the fact that a Death Star is more than capable of punching through planetary shields

Oh. So this forum considers that place a valid source. Say no more.

[Tyrant]

I gathered "A Star Destroyer can nuke everyone off of a planet", from his quotation. This is no great accomplishment; Current nuclear arsenals can accomplish this quite a few times over at this point. Even with all the 'disarmament'.

I find that suspect, since science fiction settings are (and B5 is no exception) placed beyond human capabilities. And we really, truly can destroy everything on a planet as it stands. I suspect that it was more like "They can wipe out everything on the planet with one ship, through the defenses"
I believe before you start gathering and suspecting that you should do the most basic gathering and read the thread. Had you bothered, you would easily see what I am saying. That is why I believe you are simply trolling. Along with your open, and repeated, dislike of vs threads.


I suppose this would appear to be trolling to the sort who frequent these types of threads.
Ah. And now the thinly disguised insult comes in. Implying that "the sort who frequent these types of threads" are somehow lesser or at the very least that while you too seem to have an urge to partake in these threads you are infact not part of them. Real classy.


I am pointing out that the claim being bandied about as "OMGWTFBBQ" isn't, for a science fiction faction (Or even their warships). And why? Because I find it legitimately amusing, I suppose, that this claim is being taken as a great accomplishment. It is somewhat like watching a child display his arithmetic abilities, without patronization. Or indeed, a reason to patronize, because at least the child is building up their own abilities.
I find it amusing that you bother with something you openly dislike, and then try to hide the fact you obviosuly either haven't read or don't understand the thread. Don't misunderstand my words to mean I believe you shouldn't post here or whatever other nonsense people usually use in response to statements like that. Post away for all I care. It is a free country (well, this one is more or less anyway). However, I do wonder why you bother when you're contribution seems to be dissing one poster without even trying to gather the context of the thread and then blather on about how childish the whole excercise is.

[Ubiq]

Oh. So this forum considers that place a valid source. Say no more.

That place?

Are you one of those "The Technical Commentaries can't be right because those numbers are too big!" by your types?

Even if you don't agree with Dr. Saxton's conclusions, kindly explain why a Death Star would be useful if it wasn't capable of blasting through planetary shields that we know exist.

Beyond that, you continue to tout the notion that nuclear weaponry could end all life on Earth while the entire United States stockpile could only generate about 1/3 of the energy released by Krakatoa; I find it remarkable that life still persists on a planet destroyed over 120 years ago by your reckoning.

[Innis Cabal]

1. Krakatoa dosn't have the carried implication that if it goes off all the other volcano's will also go off once it does. One can't say the same for the U.S nuclear payload.

2. Fall out sucks. Period.

Now on to the actual Star Wars Uni

1. We don'y know if Alderaan( Or how ever you spell it) had a shield. The only proof is a movie made in the 70's. So, we have no proof what so ever. No one that made the movie has come out and said "your right", or "your wrong". Its silly to base numbers off of an event that is at most due to the production of the movie.

[Talkkno]

1. We don'y know if Alderaan( Or how ever you spell it) had a shield. The only proof is a movie made in the 70's. So, we have no proof what so ever. No one that made the movie has come out and said "your right", or "your wrong". Its silly to base numbers off of an event that is at most due to the production of the movie.

Its stated in EU, the fact is you haven't come up with proof why the the clouds would suddenly all come together at the point of the Death Star blast

[Innis Cabal]

EU has been over turned (See the new movies). EU dosn't mean anything when it comes to the first three movies. Unless it comes from Lucasarts or the man himself, then it honestly dosn't count. EU isn't cannon, again see the new movies and all the things even -produced- by Lucasarts (The Driods movie) have been over turned.

And I don't have a reason. Because it was an effect from 1970's equipment, not a technical or meaningful foresight by the part of the production crew.

If you really want one. We have no idea what happens when a weapon like the Deathstar is used on the planet. We have no basis in which to produce any relevent scientific informantion when a planet is completly whipped out

[Talkkno]

EU has been over turned (See the new movies). EU dosn't mean anything when it comes to the first three movies. Unless it comes from Lucasarts or the man himself, then it honestly dosn't count. EU isn't cannon, again see the new movies and all the things even -produced- by Lucasarts (The Driods movie) have been over turned.

And I don't have a reason. Because it was an effect from 1970's equipment, not a technical or meaningful foresight by the part of the production crew.

.......So you are directly contradicting Lucasarts canon policy, and are wiling to disregard all scientific explanations of a event for your panacea reason.

[Tyrant]

EU has been over turned (See the new movies). EU dosn't mean anything when it comes to the first three movies. Unless it comes from Lucasarts or the man himself, then it honestly dosn't count. EU isn't cannon, again see the new movies and all the things even -produced- by Lucasarts (The Driods movie) have been over turned.

And I don't have a reason. Because it was an effect from 1970's equipment, not a technical or meaningful foresight by the part of the production crew.

The EU is only invalid if it directly contradicts the movies. Since the movies don't state it one way or another and you yourself have said no one from Lucasarts has refuted it, the EU claim should be valid.

Also, what EU has been overturned and by which movies? The majority of things in the EU are considered canon.

[Innis Cabal]

The Driods movie, most of the Clone War info. All of which has been turned over by the three newer movies. And how exactly can our science start to calculate such information on clips of a moive.

And simply not saying its wrong dosn't mean its right.

And I was unaware they had a "Cannon Policy". Please enlighten me as to exactly what that is.

When it comes right down to it. Its a movie. Not srsbizns

[Ubiq]

1. Krakatoa dosn't have the carried implication that if it goes off all the other volcano's will also go off once it does. One can't say the same for the U.S nuclear payload.

2. Fall out sucks. Period.


The USSR's stockpile was roughly equivalent to the US at its height and is now diffused throughout several different countries. Even then, the combined total of both stockpiles would still only be two-thirds of the energy released by Krakatoa and I guarantee you that the rest of the world's stockpiles are nowhere near the US or former USSR's arsenal. As such, every nuclear weapon on Earth detonated at once still wouldn't release as much energy as Krakatoa did. Even if it did, Tambora released about five times as much energy as Krakatoa in 1815 and the human race managed to survive that.

Far as fall out goes, well, yes, it sucks, but it's not going to end all life on Earth either. While the nuclear exchange would depopulate the Northern Hemisphere, the Southern Hemisphere wouldn't receive that much damage by comparison. The old concept of a nuclear winter doesn't bear out in newer simulations and models. Their problems would stem from societal collapse, but that's still not enough to destroy the entire planet as most people think.



1. We don'y know if Alderaan( Or how ever you spell it) had a shield. The only proof is a movie made in the 70's. So, we have no proof what so ever. No one that made the movie has come out and said "your right", or "your wrong". Its silly to base numbers off of an event that is at most due to the production of the movie.

Whether or not Alderaan in particular had a shield is irrelevant (though the novel and perhaps the radio play, both of which are canon so long as they don't directly contradict the film, had Tarkin gloat later about how Alderaan's defenses were as strong as any other in the galaxy) as we know from two explicit references in the other two films that the technology existed and that the Death Star would be pointless if it weren't capable of penetrating said shielding.

[RPGuru1331]

I believe before you start gathering and suspecting that you should do the most basic gathering and read the thread. Had you bothered, you would easily see what I am saying. That is why I believe you are simply trolling. Along with your open, and repeated, dislike of vs threads.
Why would I read an entire thread before posting? It isn't even an aspect of netiquette; OP is generally all that's needed, particularly if you are not taking a stance on the thread at large (And I repeat, I honestly couldn't care less). And whatever you're quoting, if you're quoting anything. Regardless, you may believe what you wish. It is your right to think whatever you wish. You will, however, be in error in this case.



Ah. And now the thinly disguised insult comes in. Implying that "the sort who frequent these types of threads" are somehow lesser or at the very least that while you too seem to have an urge to partake in these threads you are infact not part of them. Real classy.
I would probably not say (Or think, since you seem to believe you have a solid read on my thoughts. I assure you, you do not.) lesser, as I know folks who do this, and like those folks. However, wont to break posts and posters down into black and white, ally and enemy/troll, at least in the context of the 'debate' itself? Absolutely.


I find it amusing that you bother with something you openly dislike, and then try to hide the fact you obviosuly either haven't read
I made no effort to conceal this fact. I simply did not consider it relevant to the statement at hand. Nor should I; The statement works quite well on its own. In fact, it doesn't reference another post.


or don't understand the thread. Don't misunderstand my words to mean I believe you shouldn't post here or whatever other nonsense people usually use in response to statements like that. Post away for all I care. It is a free country (well, this one is more or less anyway).
I wasn't, and I plan to. Or plan not to, as this is rapidly demonstrating why I don't post in these 'debates'.


However, I do wonder why you bother when you're contribution seems to be dissing one poster without even trying to gather the context of the thread and then blather on about how childish the whole excercise is.
Keynote may be 'seems' to be.


Are you one of those "The Technical Commentaries can't be right because those numbers are too big!" by your types?
You mean the Star Trek fans? No. The technical commentaries can't be right because deriving hard real world physics from showmanship and movie effects that were never grounded in physics isn't possible. I can no more explain Wuxia movies from the lens of physics then I can Star Wars.

[Tyrant]

The Driods movie, most of the Clone War info. All of which has been turned over by the three newer movies.
What Clone Wars info? There wasn't a lot to begin with. I would imagine most of it is in the 3 original Zahn books. I can forgive the relevant bits being overturned (if they are) as the books were written a while ago. Despite what he says, I believe the prequels were merely an idea in the back of Lucas' mind at that point in time. The details were very sparse anyway and the only thing I recall being questionable was related to the methods of clone production (though I can't recall what exactly stuck out as off to me about that in relation to the newer movies).

When it comes right down to it. Its a movie. Not srsbizns
I agree in principal with what you are saying here. However, in a discussion like this technical questions are brought up and need to somehow be answered. Sometimes that involves serious business. Sometimes people just get too carried away.

[Innis Cabal]

Actual science, real science, being used imho is going way to far for a movie.

All we need to know is

1. Do Vorlon planet killers obliterate worlds? The answer is...maybe, we're unsure
2. Does it take substantially more power in the Starwars universe? Ya, as its the size of a moon. It can obliterate a planet, but thats overkill, used for fear. And it works! Well!

What we don't know, we can't answer really. Vorlons don't really need super killer planet ruining ships. They can take creatures in real time and turn them into super human psychic creatures that can really cause havok.

Outside of that, their ships are on orders of magnitude stronger then most of the ships shown in the movie, using what we see and whats been stated here, Star Destroyers can't do much against small ships that can manuever better then a potato thrown into the wild blue yonder. Vorlon's have that in spades.

We've also seen that Vorlons out of their suits can do horrible terrible things. To people that don't really intend to kill.

[Tyrant]

It is your right to think whatever you wish. You will, however, be in error in this case.
Enlighten me then.

I would probably not say (Or think, since you seem to believe you have a solid read on my thoughts. I assure you, you do not.) lesser, as I know folks who do this, and like those folks.
So, again, we are right back to insulting those you who engage in discussions you don't acare for and are not in anyway forced to partake in. Your implication is that were you not friends with people involved in such debates you would choose those words (lesser in this case).

I made no effort to conceal this fact. I simply did not consider it relevant to the statement at hand. Nor should I; The statement works quite well on its own. In fact, it doesn't reference another post.
That is all well and good until you take a moment and actually consider that the post you responded to (the one you quoted) is part of a discussion. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Nor does your response. I believe that most people assume that if you bother respoding that you have at least some grasp of the general flow of the conversation and expect to get something out of it other that whatever you're trying to achieve here.

I wasn't, and I plan to. Or plan not to, as this is rapidly demonstrating why I don't post in these 'debates'.
And yet, you do post in these debates. Amazing.

Keynote may be 'seems' to be.
Again, enlighten me as to what you are saying between the lines. What you said was pretty straightforward and mostly just showing you didn't bother to the read the thread.

[Krrth]

What is considered B5 cannon? The RPG sourcebook Darkness and Light (http://www.orcsnest.com/blurber.asp?Title=B5%20Darkness%20and%20Light) is entirely about the Vorlons and Shadows.

[Innis Cabal]

Not sure. The writer himself has written several short stories that are cannon, but I don't think there is a list or "policy" as to what is and isn't cannon.

[RPGuru1331]

Enlighten me then.
You did not believe me the first time, but it was quite simple. I was pointing out an extremely amusing (at least, to me) pair of flawed statements. Tallkno's more then the first poster, Ubiq's, I'll grant.


So, again, we are right back to insulting those you who engage in discussions you don't acare for and are not in anyway forced to partake in. Your implication is that were you not friends with people involved in such debates you would choose those words (lesser in this case).
You're really going out of your way to be insulted, aren't you? I see where you drew that conclusion though. If you are going to insist on being insulted, I will be more then happy to revise my statement to not include that line. I had not intended an explanation to be taken as a condition.

"I would not say (Or think) lesser. Wont to be oversensitive or divide posts or posters into black and white, ally or enemy/troll, absolutely. Not lesser."


That is all well and good until you take a moment and actually consider that the post you responded to (the one you quoted) is part of a discussion.
It was not. It was a direct response to myself, who is clearly distanced from the majority of the debate.


It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Nor does your response. I believe that most people assume that if you bother respoding that you have at least some grasp of the general flow of the conversation and expect to get something out of it other that whatever you're trying to achieve here.
You know, if I read your post with the same will to be insulted that you appear to read mine with, I imagine I'd be feel slighted. And while the posts may not technically exist in a vacuum, they're clearly responses to what is best thought of as a sort of sidenote.


And yet, you do post in these debates. Amazing.
Isn't it? It's counter to every instinct, to willingly submit to things you despise. Oh well. I did stay out of the other threads that seem to be on the same idea.


Again, enlighten me as to what you are saying between the lines. What you said was pretty straightforward and mostly just showing you didn't bother to the read the thread.

It's apparently less straightforward then I had believed, if you are continuing to draw the incorrect conclusion. You stated that I was dissing a poster. I was pointing out a flawed and incredibly amusing (Again, to myself) statement. And then another. If this is an insult to you, then yes, I suppose I am insulting them. But it isn't one to the world at large.

Since you have treated me to your thoughts on me, however wrong they may be, allow me to do the same; You are treating me this way because I am criticizing pro-Star-Wars Statements. Had I done it to pro-Babylon V, you would have drawn a good snicker. Perhaps a small note of congratulations, perhaps not. Since I clearly criticized an aspect of a position, I am clearly not a neutral observer, to be swayed, and since I don't support the opposing position, and therefore am not an enemy, I am a troll.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please remain civil in this discussion. If you find it not worthy of your participation, the proper course is to not participate rather than belittle the discussion and its participants. If you find someone's posts disruptive, please use the report post feature rather than insulting them.

[Tyrant]

Sorry for my part in the derailment.

[factotum]

1. Do Vorlon planet killers obliterate worlds? The answer is...maybe, we're unsure


I don't think there's any uncertainty about it at all! Actual dialogue from the B5 series indicates that there are still survivors ON THE GROUND after an attack by a Vorlon planet killer. In other words, the planet is still intact, probably still has a breathable atmosphere, and not all of its population was destroyed. While that may count as "obliteration" for some carefully-chosen values of "obliteration", it clearly isn't anywhere close to the complete planetary annihilation a Death Star is capable of.

Oh, and I will repeat what I said earlier--the Shadows and the Vorlons are of similar technological achievement and so one would expect their planet killers to be about as powerful as each other; which brings us to "A Call to Arms", where Sheridan and his crew were standing on the surface of a planet that had been hit by a Shadow planet killer, requiring little more than breathing masks to survive. Again, this is not even close to the levels of destruction we know the Empire can dish out.

[Innis Cabal]

There have been more planets destroyed, such as Arcata 7 which was reduced to similar levels of slag, mentioned in The Summoning.

If thats the case, that might indicate they can actually change the level of their firepower. Both are cannon and in the tv series as well.

[ArlEammon]

There have been more planets destroyed, such as Arcata 7 which was reduced to similar levels of slag, mentioned in The Summoning.

If thats the case, that might indicate they can actually change the level of their firepower. Both are cannon and in the tv series as well.

Interesting. I wonder, though, if there are more than several dozen planet killers in B5.

[Innis Cabal]

The fleet that set out had one, though in every source i've found the Planet Killer is refered to as "They" so...guessing they have more then 1, but probably not a whole fleet of them. Not saying they couldn't make one though.

[Krrth]

Interesting. I wonder, though, if there are more than several dozen planet killers in B5.
Hard to tell. They do have multiples, though. And the Shadow plague would outright kill most of the Empire, and there's not a thing the Jedi could do about it.

Every human in the Star Wars universe would die. (well, at least 99.9% of them).

[warty goblin]

I don't think there's any uncertainty about it at all! Actual dialogue from the B5 series indicates that there are still survivors ON THE GROUND after an attack by a Vorlon planet killer. In other words, the planet is still intact, probably still has a breathable atmosphere, and not all of its population was destroyed. While that may count as "obliteration" for some carefully-chosen values of "obliteration", it clearly isn't anywhere close to the complete planetary annihilation a Death Star is capable of.

Oh, and I will repeat what I said earlier--the Shadows and the Vorlons are of similar technological achievement and so one would expect their planet killers to be about as powerful as each other; which brings us to "A Call to Arms", where Sheridan and his crew were standing on the surface of a planet that had been hit by a Shadow planet killer, requiring little more than breathing masks to survive. Again, this is not even close to the levels of destruction we know the Empire can dish out.

No, the actual dialog says there was an attack, and they needed shuttles to evacuate people. The implication is that these are people who survived the planet-killer, but they could easily be people on another planet in the area with a shadow base on it. Since there's been a war going on for a few years, I think 'survivor' is a fairly accurate description of those who haven't been killed yet.

Given that Ivanova's speech is played over this image (http://www.sf3dmodels.boom.ru/smpr/pc581.jpg), which pretty clearly shows a Vorlon planet-killer moving through the wreckage of, well, something. Contextually I'd hazard it to have been a planet.

[Innis Cabal]

We've already got a source that stats, in cannon, the Planet Killer reduced a planet to rubble.

That implies to me they can control the power they have in their blasts. Which would mean their weapons are at the very least stronger then any superweapon the Empire has to bare (save maybe the sun crusher or the Galaxy Gun)

[factotum]

Given that Ivanova's speech is played over this image (http://www.sf3dmodels.boom.ru/smpr/pc581.jpg), which pretty clearly shows a Vorlon planet-killer moving through the wreckage of, well, something. Contextually I'd hazard it to have been a planet.

Except if that planet had been destroyed a matter of hours earlier those chunks of rocks would have been moving extremely rapidly, which they clearly weren't. And why would Ivanova have specified the need to pick up survivors from the ground of a completely unrelated planet? It's really stretching to say that "Oh, these people on this planet which hasn't been hit yet but which may be hit at some unspecified date in the future are really survivors".

[Innis Cabal]

Thats not the point, we've provided sources, even the episode where its said, that they can reduce a planet to rubble. We know they are capable of doing it, they've proven the ability, even if they -didn't- in this case, one has to ask why, and how they managed to control that level of fire power.

Its not something that can be hand waved off, both are cannon, in the T.V show, and have been provided.

[warty goblin]

Except if that planet had been destroyed a matter of hours earlier those chunks of rocks would have been moving extremely rapidly, which they clearly weren't. And why would Ivanova have specified the need to pick up survivors from the ground of a completely unrelated planet? It's really stretching to say that "Oh, these people on this planet which hasn't been hit yet but which may be hit at some unspecified date in the future are really survivors".

Who's to say that the rocks aren't moving quite fast relative to other pieces of the planet they used to be part of? All that shot tells us is that however fast the rocks are coming towards the camera, the planet-killer is moving a bit faster. Given that Babylon 5 actually seems to understand the idea of relative motion and inertia*, this doesn't do anything to show that the rocks didn't come from a planet.

*They do have some slight problems with conservation of angular momentum. Turning an omega class destroyer should really be a bitch what with that whacking great spinning thing.

[WarriorTribble]

Ivanova's distress call
" Survivors indicate mass destruction on a planetary scale. We continue to need medical ships, transports, anything that can fly. We are in special need of atmosphere-capable shuttles to evacuate survivors from the ground."
Since it didn't even blow the atmosphere away, it is weaker then a single Imperial-class Star Destroyer.I assume she meant moving refugees around or away from the various planets who were accepting them. Several million people coming into your planet would require some shuffling. Not to mention what's the point of calling something a planet killer when what you're describing barely sounds like a planet boo boo maker? The Centauri mass drivers did more than that. Not to mention it makes Shadow tech look better then the Vorlons, and what are the odds they'll allow such an insult to exist? :smallsmile:

[factotum]

Not to mention it makes Shadow tech look better then the Vorlons, and what are the odds they'll allow such an insult to exist? :smallsmile:

This is entirely the point I'm making AGAINST the Vorlon planet killer being as powerful as people are saying. We know exactly what a Shadow planet killer does--it essentially drops thousands of nukes that burrow under the surface and then explode. This is not going to cause the entire planet to disintegrate--nowhere near enough energy for that. So, if the Vorlon planet killer is that much more powerful, please explain to me why the Vorlons haven't just kicked the Shadows out of the galaxy millennia ago?

[WarriorTribble]

This is entirely the point I'm making AGAINST the Vorlon planet killer being as powerful as people are saying. We know exactly what a Shadow planet killer does--it essentially drops thousands of nukes that burrow under the surface and then explode. This is not going to cause the entire planet to disintegrate--nowhere near enough energy for that.Vorlon planet killers gather and concentrate a crap load of energy and shoot it at a planet, much like the Death Star. So the general assumption is if it acts like the Death Star it probably is like the Death Star. Course we've no direct evidence, but I don't think this is improbable. Afterall, how many large machines which shoot a concentrated beam of energy at a planet not make it go boom? Then again I guess I can understand the desire to interpret canon in the most strictest way possible.
So, if the Vorlon planet killer is that much more powerful, please explain to me why the Vorlons haven't just kicked the Shadows out of the galaxy millennia ago?Neither side wanted to annihilate the other with military force. And of course, Planet Killers like Death Stars don't exactly win the war. :smallsmile:

[factotum]

And of course, Planet Killers like Death Stars don't exactly win the war. :smallsmile:

Sheridan clearly thought one would--he mentions that the Vorlons could have used a planet killer against Z'ha'dum if they really wanted to wipe the Shadows out. Damn, I seem to be arguing against my own point here... :smallmad:

[WarriorTribble]

Sheridan clearly thought one would--he mentions that the Vorlons could have used a planet killer against Z'ha'dum if they really wanted to wipe the Shadows out. Damn, I seem to be arguing against my own point here... :smallmad:Doubt getting a planet killer into firing range would be easy against a fellow First One though. Espeically since the Vorlon variety is pretty much defenseless, and Earthforce managed to take out the Shadow version.

[warty goblin]

Neither side wanted to annihilate the other with military force. And of course, Planet Killers like Death Stars don't exactly win the war. :smallsmile:

Exactly. Killing the Shadows just proved that the Vorlons were stronger. Having the younger races reject the Shadow teachings and overcome the followers of the Shadows showed that the Vorlon philosophy was better, which was the whole point.

Plus the First First One was on Z'ha'Dum, and you just don't go around blowing up people like that.

[Wardog]

Also, bear in mind that the Shadows did have the ability to blow up a planet (their own), so we can say at least that the capacity to destroy a planet does exist in the B5 canon.



PS: when referring to a body of works considered genuine or official within a fictional universe, the correct spelling is "canon". I wouldn't normally point out spelling mistakes on a forum, but given that we are discussing the canonical power of cannons, it’s probably best to make sure we use the right spelling in the right place, otherwise all sorts of confusion could arise :)

[Innis Cabal]

Not only that, its the same thing as a country dropping a ton of nukes on a country, other countries will respond in kind and then where are you? No planet period.

Destroying the Shadow Home Planet would trigger a war far bigger then the one that was raging, them sending out their own Planet Killers out and blasting Vorlon planets away left and right, and probably all of their allies planets to, so say good bye to the Mimbari.

Mutually assured destruction is an awsome concept when you really sit down and think about it.

Also, the First One was on the planet, and probably would have something to say about getting the planet under his feet reduced to rubble.

[warty goblin]

Not only that, its the same thing as a country dropping a ton of nukes on a country, other countries will respond in kind and then where are you? No planet period.

Destroying the Shadow Home Planet would trigger a war far bigger then the one that was raging, them sending out their own Planet Killers out and blasting Vorlon planets away left and right, and probably all of their allies planets to, so say good bye to the Mimbari.

Mutually assured destruction is an awsome concept when you really sit down and think about it.

Also, the First One was on the planet, and probably would have something to say about getting the planet under his feet reduced to rubble.

I never honestly got the impression that the Shadows and Vorlons were even at war. It struck me as more of a philosophical exercise...a full contact philosophical exercise to be sure, and one with significantly higher collateral than just boring the snot out of the other people at the dinner party. Blowing up the other guy's planet just makes you look weak. Blowing up his stuff on other people's planets, now that makes some sense.

[Innis Cabal]

It was a war in so far as their ideals and thoughts were opposed. They were not engaged in a war of agression, more like a war of subversion.

It started out as a thought exercise, but the Shadow War isn't called a War for no reason. It all boiled down to the big confrontation in the show, becoming an actual war of agression.

[factotum]

Also, bear in mind that the Shadows did have the ability to blow up a planet (their own), so we can say at least that the capacity to destroy a planet does exist in the B5 canon.


Eh? When did the Shadows do that, exactly? Z'ha'dum seemed to be fully intact even after Sheridan blew up a White Star containing a 500-megaton nuke inside the Shadow city.

[warty goblin]

Eh? When did the Shadows do that, exactly? Z'ha'dum seemed to be fully intact even after Sheridan blew up a White Star containing a 500-megaton nuke inside the Shadow city.

The Shadows rigged Z'ha'dum to blow up if anybody came calling after they left. When Bester got Sheridan et al to go there looking for something to cure his significant other, Lyta telepathically triggered Z'ha'dum's defenses en route, so they arrived just in time to see the Drakh fleet evacuating and the planet blow up.

[Krrth]

That was one of the reasons I was asking as to exactly what was considered "Canon". The supplement I mentioned had an entire chapter on the original conflict between the Vorlons and the Shadows. It wasn't pretty, and multiple races went extinct.

[Innis Cabal]

Well, who was it written by will help to know. Was it in the Mongoose game? As that is canon.

[Krrth]

Well, who was it written by will help to know. Was it in the Mongoose game? As that is canon.

Mongoose published it, yes.

[Innis Cabal]

Then it is in fact canon.

[Krrth]

Then it is in fact canon.

In that case, the Empire looses. Hard. The Vorlon's home system has a triggered time warp in it. The Vorlons can take the entire system, including the manufacturing capabilities, out of normal time, and spend 10,000 years building a fleet. Then pop back into the same time they left....with the new built fleet.

[Tyrant]

In that case, the Empire looses. Hard. The Vorlon's home system has a triggered time warp in it. The Vorlons can take the entire system, including the manufacturing capabilities, out of normal time, and spend 10,000 years building a fleet. Then pop back into the same time they left....with the new built fleet.

But, how big is this fleet? Is it still any kind of genuine threat to the Empire?

What is stopping the Empire from dusting off the CIS warships and reprogramming the battle droids? Send them into every uninhabited system and asteroid field they can find. Their standing orders will be to build bases and production facilities for more droids (or, if they're willing to play the long game, cloning facilities). It won't take long for them to have an army of epic scale. They (the droids) may not, by themselves, be able to face the Vorlons. But, they can destroy almost everything else. Then the Vorlons will face the prospect of all their plans lying in ruin. Or, the droids could be programmed to build newer ships (like Star Destroyers) which can be used against the Vorlons. It isn't as fast as the Vorlon method, but I am pretty sure the Empire already has a pretty massive head start in terms of ship count.

I'll repeat some of my questions from earlier that have gone unanswered
1) How many planets are under Earth control?
2) Likewise the other major powers (Centauri, Minbari, the Narn I guess, SHadows, Vorlons, etc)?
3) How big of an area does this collection of powers control in relation to the overall galaxy?
4) How long would it take one of their ships to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other?
5) What kind of power output do their weapons have?

[Krrth]

But, how big is this fleet? Is it still any kind of genuine threat to the Empire?

What is stopping the Empire from dusting off the CIS warships and reprogramming the battle droids? Send them into every uninhabited system and asteroid field they can find. Their standing orders will be to build bases and production facilities for more droids (or, if they're willing to play the long game, cloning facilities). It won't take long for them to have an army of epic scale. They (the droids) may not, by themselves, be able to face the Vorlons. But, they can destroy almost everything else. Then the Vorlons will face the prospect of all their plans lying in ruin. Or, the droids could be programmed to build newer ships (like Star Destroyers) which can be used against the Vorlons. It isn't as fast as the Vorlon method, but I am pretty sure the Empire already has a pretty massive head start in terms of ship count.

I'll repeat some of my questions from earlier that have gone unanswered
1) How many planets are under Earth control?
2) Likewise the other major powers (Centauri, Minbari, the Narn I guess, SHadows, Vorlons, etc)?
3) How big of an area does this collection of powers control in relation to the overall galaxy?
4) How long would it take one of their ships to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other?
5) What kind of power output do their weapons have?

I'll answer as best I can.
1) Not very many. Earth is the youngest of the galactic powers, the Mimbari the oldest.

2)The shadows only "control" one planet, where they went into hibernation. They've left supply depots and ships waiting to be activated on countless planets, including Mars.

3)The Vorlons and Shadows, at one point in time, controlled ALL of it.

4) See time manupulation. It literally takes as long as it needs to.

5) Destroy entire planets, much like the Death Star. Here's a link to what is known of the capabilities (http://www.b5tech.com/vorlon/vorlonships/vorlonplanetkiller.html).

Consider this: Over a million years ago, they were capable of building gateways to other dimensions. There are Psychics capable of disintegrating creatures with a thought. They are genuinely immortal, and their ships have been stated to be immune to anything other than first one level technology.

[Talkkno]

5) Destroy entire planets, much like the Death Star. Here's a link to what is known of the capabilities (http://www.b5tech.com/vorlon/vorlonships/vorlonplanetkiller.html).



Already been over with, at best its as good as a Base Delta Zero.

[Krrth]

Already been over with, at best its as good as a Base Delta Zero.

Really? I wasn't aware that base delta zero (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero) turned planets into rubble.

[Tyrant]

I'll answer as best I can.
1) Not very many. Earth is the youngest of the galactic powers, the Mimbari the oldest.
What are we calling not many? The Empire controls roughly 2/3 of their galaxy.

3)The Vorlons and Shadows, at one point in time, controlled ALL of it.
Why don't they still control all of it?

4) See time manupulation. It literally takes as long as it needs to.
So, their time manipulation can be used anywhere at any time? How are the Shadows any kind of threat to them, idealogical or otherwise, again?


5) Destroy entire planets, much like the Death Star. Here's a link to what is known of the capabilities (http://www.b5tech.com/vorlon/vorlonships/vorlonplanetkiller.html).
I am talking about their regular weapons. The primary weapons of their ships.


Consider this: Over a million years ago, they were capable of building gateways to other dimensions.
And the arrogance to actually do it. That's important to remember as well.


They are genuinely immortal, and their ships have been stated to be immune to anything other than first one level technology.
This brings us back to how powerful their weapons are. If the weapons of the other first ones aren't substantially more powerful than those of the Empire, then the Empire can and will inflict casualties. The link you posted talks about a Shadow Battle Crab possibly being able to render a planet lifeless with sustained fire from it's main weapon. This is also well within the capabilities of a Star Destroyer. Thus far we have assumed that the Shadows and Vorlons are roughly equal. This is listed like it's an amazing feat. The Empire can do that. They have tens of thousands of ships that can do that.

[Talkkno]

Really? I wasn't aware that base delta zero (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero) turned planets into rubble.

Better yet, it reduces them to slag.

[Krrth]

What are we calling not many? The Empire controls roughly 2/3 of their galaxy.

Why don't they still control all of it?

So, their time manipulation can be used anywhere at any time? How are the Shadows any kind of threat to them, idealogical or otherwise, again?


I am talking about their regular weapons. The primary weapons of their ships.


And the arrogance to actually do it. That's important to remember as well.


This brings us back to how powerful their weapons are. If the weapons of the other first ones aren't substantially more powerful than those of the Empire, then the Empire can and will inflict casualties. The link you posted talks about a Shadow Battle Crab possibly being able to render a planet lifeless with sustained fire from it's main weapon. This is also well within the capabilities of a Star Destroyer. Thus far we have assumed that the Shadows and Vorlons are roughly equal. This is listed like it's an amazing feat. The Empire can do that. They have tens of thousands of ships that can do that.

List of Earth Colonies and Outposts (http://www.b5tech.com/earthalliance/earthxenohistory/earthhistory/earthcolonies.htm).

The reason they stopped it because the war between the first ones was about to destroy all life in the galaxy. Most of the First ones left this galaxy entirely rather than destroy it. The Shadows and Vorlons stayed behind to help the younger races.

No one is really sure about how often the Time Manipulation can be used. The book I got that from is currently at a friends house. I'll get it this weekend. I DO remember that they've played along with time enough to turn their home system into a death trap.

Earth has some of the lowest tech of any galactic power (at the start of the series. The Narns MIGHT have lower, but it's doubtful. However, Earth tech weapons are blasters. They shoot a plasma bolt, have stun, kill, and destroy settings....pistol (http://www.b5tech.com/misctech/weapons/handheldweapons/ppgpistol.html) and rifle (http://www.b5tech.com/misctech/weapons/handheldweapons/ppgrifle.html).
With that in mind....those weren't able to even damage Vorlon Body armor.

Of course they're arrogant. They obtained hyperspace travel over 5 million years ago, and are immortal.

Yes, the Crab can turn a planet into a lifeless slagheap. With ONE gun.

Take the Mimbari War Cruiser (http://www.b5tech.com/minbari/minbariships/sharlin/sharlin.html). This is perhaps the most advanced ship in the galaxy that does not use first one tech. It can't damage the Vorlon ships.

Yes, the Shadows and Vorlons have Equal tech. It is important to note that they have different methods of using it. The Shadows are NOT immortal like the Vorlons are, by choice. They have very different methods of doing things.
It's also indicated that most of the Vorlon (and shadow) tech is dumbed down, so as to not overwhelm the younger races.

Tech known to be first one tech: The great machine, which can travel back and forth through time, a device that can combine the DNA of different species on an adult, and make a viable and fertile organism, and a nano-tech plague capable of adapting to any species and destroying it completely.


edit: Really? As far as I know, it:

It denoted the most severe of several levels of destruction that could be directed against a center of resistance, and involved laying waste to an entire planet by orbital bombardment, either reducing the upper crust of a planet to molten slag[4][5] or atomizing the planet's top-soil

Upper crust, not the entire planet into an asteroid field. The Shadow version eats the planet, in much the same way a Tyranid Hive Fleet does.

[Innis Cabal]

Better yet, it reduces them to slag.

Wait...its better to reduce a planet to slag then it is just destroying them and reducing them into astroids and space dust?

The Planet Killer can reduce a planet to a similar state, not only has it been mentioned in previous pages, it cites the exact episode in which it's mentioned.


There have been more planets destroyed, such as Arcata 7 which was reduced to similar levels of slag, mentioned in The Summoning.

[Talkkno]

The Planet Killer can reduce a planet to a similar state, not only has it been mentioned in previous pages, it cites the exact episode in which it's mentioned.
Unfortunately we didn't actually see it happen.

[Innis Cabal]

Whats your point? They say it happened in the show right after it happened. Just because they don't show the destroyed planet dosn't mean it didn't happen :smallannoyed:

Main characters mentioned it. It happened. Mongoose Publishing material is canon, they mention them being able to. Its documented in canon sources.

[ArlEammon]

What if the Galactic Empire decides to use the Vorlon midichlorian technology to increase its "Jedi" powers by increasing midichlorian counts?

[Talkkno]

What if the Galactic Empire decides to use the Vorlon midichlorian technology to increase its "Jedi" powers by increasing midichlorian counts?

Force doesn't work that way midichlorians are a mere indicator of Force potentional, not what acutally gives Force powers.

[ArlEammon]

Force doesn't work that way midichlorians are a mere indicator of Force potentional, not what acutally gives Force powers.

According to the OP Vorlons have been mixing Force powers. Forget midichlorians.. What about just using Vorlon tech to increase Force powers?

[Innis Cabal]

They'd still have to deal with psyches like Lyta

[ArlEammon]

They'd still have to deal with psyches like Lyta

Vader's Apprentice was pretty good.

[Innis Cabal]

Ya, but Lyta can mass mind control, force people to kill themselves, and claimed her powers were a "Vorlon Doomsday weapon" by the end of the series. She's one tough chick.

[ArlEammon]

Have you ever heard of Darth Nihilus?http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Nihilus#Powers_and_abilities

[Tyrant]

Of course they're arrogant. They obtained hyperspace travel over 5 million years ago, and are immortal.
I meant that's an important trait to remember. As I said earlier, being able to do something and having the will to do it aren't the same thing. The Empire is willing to destroy planets to win. The Vorlons could theoretically control everything by what I am reading, yet they don't. They don't have the will to do it. The Empire will kill whoever it has to to win.

As to why it's important to note they are arrogant, it helps to show they aren't perfect. That even if they are immortal they are still trapped by mortal ways of thinking. That is a weakness that can be exploited by the right type of person (such as Palpatine or Thrawn).

Yes, the Crab can turn a planet into a lifeless slagheap. With ONE gun.
But how long does it take? If it can be done in moments, the planet killer's kind of pointless isn't it? So, I assume it takes a while. That means what takes it's main weapon a while to achieve can also be achieved by the main ships of the Imperial fleet. So, this can be taken to mean their level of firepower is comparible. If that is true, then the Empire has an edge as I assume the Vorlon fleet does not number in the tens of thousands.

[warty goblin]

Have you ever heard of Darth Nihilus?http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Nihilus#Powers_and_abilities

That's um, one guy who isn't even alive at the time of this discussion. The Vorlons only made one person with Lyta Alexander's powers, but fundamentally there's nothing to stop them from doing it to a lot more people, and personally I'll take planets full of slaves over planets full of corpses any day in terms of utility.


I meant that's an important trait to remember. As I said earlier, being able to do something and having the will to do it aren't the same thing. The Empire is willing to destroy planets to win. The Vorlons could theoretically control everything by what I am reading, yet they don't. They don't have the will to do it. The Empire will kill whoever it has to to win.

As to why it's important to note they are arrogant, it helps to show they aren't perfect. That even if they are immortal they are still trapped by mortal ways of thinking. That is a weakness that can be exploited by the right type of person (such as Palpatine or Thrawn).


Remember the Vorlons aren't fighting a war of annihation with the Shadows for most of the show. As I said earlier, they are having a rather ugly philosophical dispute which just happens to take the form of a lot of other species shooting each other. Destroying all the enemy isn't the point, the point is to prove them wrong, and the best way to do that is to organize the younger races to fight the Shadows and not descend into an eternity of anarchical bloodshed. As shown by the middle/end of Season 4 though they can play hardball when they feel the need.

Also given the degree to which the Vorlons are cold, manipulative bastards throughout the show leaves me with little doubt that they have no existential problem with mass bloodshed when it meets their needs.

[Yulian]

Force doesn't work that way midichlorians are a mere indicator of Force potentional, not what acutally gives Force powers.

Because if that were true, you could just grind up a Jedi into "Jedi Juice" and shoot up with Force 'Roids.

I would argue that the Vorlons do have the will to kill anyone in their way. They just chose not to because many of the younger races were their tools and pawns against the Shadows. Even if the humans weren't totally cooperating, they were still fighting the Shadows. They did lob some ugly threats around, remember. Kosh 2 was a jerk like that.

We also have to ask, do the Vorlons even have a world as a base of operations here? If their entire civilization can stay mobile on their ships and "hide" in hyperspace as B5 ships can for long periods, they'd be hard to pin down. SW ships can't idle in hyperspace, B5 ships can.

- Yulian

[Tyrant]

That's um, one guy who isn't even alive at the time of this discussion. The Vorlons only made one person with Lyta Alexander's powers, but fundamentally there's nothing to stop them from doing it to a lot more people, and personally I'll take planets full of slaves over planets full of corpses any day in terms of utility.
Something must have stopped them however. They could have had planets full of slaves, but chose not for some reason.


Remember the Vorlons aren't fighting a war of annihation with the Shadows for most of the show. As I said earlier, they are having a rather ugly philosophical dispute which just happens to take the form of a lot of other species shooting each other. Destroying all the enemy isn't the point, the point is to prove them wrong, and the best way to do that is to organize the younger races to fight the Shadows and not descend into an eternity of anarchical bloodshed. As shown by the middle/end of Season 4 though they can play hardball when they feel the need.

Also given the degree to which the Vorlons are cold, manipulative bastards throughout the show leaves me with little doubt that they have no existential problem with mass bloodshed when it meets their needs.
So then it sounds like the way to really get to them is to destroy the younger races and create as much chaos as possible on as wide a scale as possible. Palpatine has done that to further his own goals before. How would the Vorlons react if they were proven "wrong" in this rather violent philisophical debate? By a non first one race not allied with the Shadows no less?

[Alex Knight]

. How would the Vorlons react if they were proven "wrong" in this rather violent philisophical debate? By a non first one race not allied with the Shadows no less?


Exterminate the race.

The Vorlons and Shadows were attempting to "prove" which one of their philosophies is the correct one. The Shadow concept of strength and growth through Chaos, or the Vorlon concept of stability and Order.

The younger races are only important as playing pieces between the two. I *do* believe it is possible for Imperial technology to damage or even destroy a Vorlon or Shadow vessel (after all, the young races manage to do just that on several occasions). However, Vorlon ships *learn* from being shot at and adapt their armor so they take less damage from each subsequent shot. Kinda like the Borg. Vorlon mental influence capabilities, on the other hand, are unmatched. A single Vorlon could look like Palpatine, Vader, Yoda, and Obi-Wan to four different people at the exact same time and place. :smallsmile:

[Tyrant]

Exterminate the race.
That's awfully childish for the supposedly super race isn't it. They get proven wrong by their lessers so they kill them. I imagine the Shadows would look at that and assume the same could happen to them, then hit the Vorlons with everything they had.

The Vorlons and Shadows were attempting to "prove" which one of their philosophies is the correct one. The Shadow concept of strength and growth through Chaos, or the Vorlon concept of stability and Order.
I'm aware of their philosophies. Having the Shadow philosophy prevail without aid of the Shadows should prove them wrong. Are they really such sore losers that they would try to wipe out the Empire? I know they are arrogant but I didn't think they were that insecure. Yet more traits to be used against them by Thrawn.

The younger races are only important as playing pieces between the two. I *do* believe it is possible for Imperial technology to damage or even destroy a Vorlon or Shadow vessel (after all, the young races manage to do just that on several occasions). However, Vorlon ships *learn* from being shot at and adapt their armor so they take less damage from each subsequent shot. Kinda like the Borg. Vorlon mental influence capabilities, on the other hand, are unmatched. A single Vorlon could look like Palpatine, Vader, Yoda, and Obi-Wan to four different people at the exact same time and place. :smallsmile:
Does "that" ship learn, or all ships? And if the ship is destroyed very rapidly? Again I am assuming the Imperial fleet is considerably larger and could easily send several Star Destroyers after each Vorlon ship so being rapidly destroyed isn't out of the question.

[Talkkno]

Brute force does not have a frequency to adapt against :smallyuk:

[Alex Knight]

That's awfully childish for the supposedly super race isn't it. They get proven wrong by their lessers so they kill them. I imagine the Shadows would look at that and assume the same could happen to them, then hit the Vorlons with everything they had.


Yes, it's quite childish. It's what. they. do.

The Shadows and Vorlons had an agreement. No direct action against each other. Ever. Kosh breaks that agreement and sends Vorlon ships to kill a Shadow vessel. That escalates the war. Genocide of a Young Race? Meh, all part of the great game.



Are they really such sore losers that they would try to wipe out the Empire?


Yes, they ARE that big a group of sore losers. They even began cheating in the Great Game by altering the Young Races to have greater telepathic powers, and to see the Vorlons as angels and the Shadows as demons. This led to the Shadows offering to help the Young Races by actually lending the use of their warships against the YR's enemies.

The original idea was for both of the older races to offer only advice, nothing more.




Does "that" ship learn, or all ships? And if the ship is destroyed very rapidly? Again I am assuming the Imperial fleet is considerably larger and could easily send several Star Destroyers after each Vorlon ship so being rapidly destroyed isn't out of the question.


Just that one ship. However, it learns really fast, is amazingly resilient, and more to the point, can HEAL itself during a fight. They're also about as agile as the Falcon (at least the Vorlon capital ships are. Their fighters can outmaneuver a TIE fighter).

[Krrth]

But how long does it take? If it can be done in moments, the planet killer's kind of pointless isn't it? So, I assume it takes a while. That means what takes it's main weapon a while to achieve can also be achieved by the main ships of the Imperial fleet. So, this can be taken to mean their level of firepower is comparible. If that is true, then the Empire has an edge as I assume the Vorlon fleet does not number in the tens of thousands.

It is. Remember, Earth is the smallest of the Galactic powers at the beginning of the series. Earth also had 60,000 (http://www.b5tech.com/science/misc/fleetsize/earthfleetsize.html) capitol ships.

Incidentally, as I recall, both the Vorlons and Shadows act childish because they are. Both races were uplifted into sentience and guided into the interstellar age...The Vorlons by the true first ones (the very first race to gain sentience), the Shadows by the original race fighting the Vorlons. The Shadows overthrew and destroyed their parent race.


As for the Vorlon fighters....I feel it is important to mention that they do not have pilots. The fighters are instead controlled by the downloaded personality of on of the Vorlons. That's how they are immortal. Every Vorlon has a "Master Copy" of themselves stored in another dimension. That copy is the True Vorlon.

Kosh was killed when the Shadows destroyed that Master Copy, which left all the personality fragments to die of old age, since they could no longer merge.


I would also argue against the idea that Imperial vessels are as powerful as the Shadows or Vorlons. I am unaware of any standard Imperial vessel capable of carving Pluto into independent chunks. The Shadow Battlecrab can do just that (http://www.b5tech.com/shadows/shadowships/shadowbattlecrab.html).

[Obrysii]

This is an interesting discussion - but you must remember a few things about the Star Wars galaxy:

The Empire isn't alone. It isn't the most powerful, and it wasn't the first. You destroy the Empire and you then have to deal with other threats - Centerpoint Station, the Yuuzhan Vong ...

You might win the battle, but you won't win the galaxy.

[Yulian]

The Empire isn't alone. It isn't the most powerful, and it wasn't the first. You destroy the Empire and you then have to deal with other threats - Centerpoint Station, the Yuuzhan Vong ...

You might win the battle, but you won't win the galaxy.

Is it wrong to think the Vorlons might get along better with the Vong than the Empire? They are Shapers and all that.

- Yulian

[Krrth]

Is it wrong to think the Vorlons might get along better with the Vong than the Empire? They are Shapers and all that.

- Yulian

I suspect the wouldn't care for them either. The only reason the Vorlons actually cared about humanity in general is that we had the potential to become a class 4 society.

Class 1: Sentient
Class 2: Civilized
Class 3: Starfaring (humanity, Mimbari)
Class 4:Trancendent (Vorlon, Shadows)
Class 5:? (the Frist Ones that left the Galaxy)

[Trixie]

Vorlon planet killers gather and concentrate a crap load of energy and shoot it at a planet, much like the Death Star. So the general assumption is if it acts like the Death Star it probably is like the Death Star.

You are aware that, say, S&W 5.5 mm revolver acts on the same principle as, say, Iowa 406 mm main battery? And if there are really 'survivors' on the attacked planet actual relative differences in firepower of DS and VPK are far larger?


In that case, the Empire looses. Hard. The Vorlon's home system has a triggered time warp in it. The Vorlons can take the entire system, including the manufacturing capabilities, out of normal time, and spend 10,000 years building a fleet. Then pop back into the same time they left....with the new built fleet.

The problem is, that sounds cool, but only on paper. If I were to lock, say, and immortal blacksmith for 10.000 years while asking him to make enough swords for himself to take on the, say, People's Republic of China, by himself, could he actually do that?

One planet is very little, even if you're prepared to militarize population to levels unheard of even in second world war. Even if you managed to create this second Candia the chances are pretty good that after 10.000 you'd have a nice revolt, instead of pile of useless weapons.

[Krrth]

You are aware that, say, S&W 5.5 mm revolver acts on the same principle as, say, Iowa 406 mm main battery? And if there are really 'survivors' on the attacked planet actual relative differences in firepower of DS and VPK are far larger?



The problem is, that sounds cool, but only on paper. If I were to lock, say, and immortal blacksmith for 10.000 years while asking him to make enough swords for himself to take on the, say, People's Republic of China, by himself, could he actually do that?

One planet is very little, even if you're prepared to militarize population to levels unheard of even in second world war. Even if you managed to create this second Candia the chances are pretty good that after 10.000 you'd have a nice revolt, instead of pile of useless weapons.


I didn't say one planet, I said home system. As in the entire kit and caboodle. Combined with matter creation, they can pretty much do whatever they wanted to. That whole system was designed to be used against invading first one fleets. It would be silly to assume they don't have the industrial capacity to actually use it.

As far as I know, there were no survivors ON the planet, there were survivors FROM the planet. The Vorlons were known to give people a chance to flee before they turned the planet into a floating pile or rubble.

[Trixie]

I didn't say one planet, I said home system. As in the entire kit and caboodle. Combined with matter creation, they can pretty much do whatever they wanted to. That whole system was designed to be used against invading first one fleets. It would be silly to assume they don't have the industrial capacity to actually use it.

As far as I know, there were no survivors ON the planet, there were survivors FROM the planet. The Vorlons were known to give people a chance to flee before they turned the planet into a floating pile or rubble.

Backtracking, are we? :smallamused:

Anyway, let's accept these claims. Matter creation, time, planet killers, etc. That begs the question how they can fight on equal terms with guys whose idea of planet killer is basically equal to what USA and USSR had thirty years ago. It also begs the question why said guys with warships only capable of cutting some planetoids (link given above) can fight with them on equal terms (incidentally, any SW ship above corvette can cut or outright vaporize said planetoid, which translates to millions of vessels) - instead of being curbstomped instantly.

It also begs the question why a ragtag band of races roughly comparable in technological sophistication to tusken raiders handed the Vorlons their asses on a silver platter, several times.

Also, why these almighty beings with 'matter creation' simply didn't created a second galaxy with which to combat the first or simply brainwashed anyone within said galaxy. Could it be that their tech or sorcery wasn't potent enough? Incidentally, matter to energy conversion was easy in the SW universe, and any Jedi who is willing to dive deep enough into the dark side can reach almost unlimited levels of power (especially if all he wants to do with it is a simple mass genocide of certain species - the DS would be happy to oblige) - so no real differences here.

Hell, if SW Galaxy needed a huge force boost, they have Valley of the Jedi - a skilled force user within it can explode stars on the other side of the galaxy with mere thought, killing all living beings in said system without destroying it would be almost too easy for him/her.

As far as combat systems go - if you need to bring out VPKs to match a simple Super Star Destroyer's firepower, then I wonder how they would answer to World Devastators - with their superheavy shielding (multifaceted and multilayered shield that easily withstood and entire fleet barrage targeting a single WD), ability to pretty much instantly annihilate something as large as star destroyer, and possibly even larger ships, while converting said annihilated ships into a constant stream of fighters, cruisers or even new WD's on the field. Even planet killer wouldn't stand a chance against them, given that they can immobilize targeted ships before devouring them.

[Krrth]

Backtracking, are we? :smallamused:

Anyway, let's accept these claims. Matter creation, time, planet killers, etc. That begs the question how they can fight on equal terms with guys whose idea of planet killer is basically equal to what USA and USSR had thirty years ago. It also begs the question why said guys with warships only capable of cutting some planetoids (link given above) can fight with them on equal terms (incidentally, any SW ship above corvette can cut or outright vaporize said planetoid, which translates to millions of vessels) - instead of being curbstomped instantly.

It also begs the question why a ragtag band of races roughly comparable in technological sophistication to tusken raiders handed the Vorlons their asses on a silver platter, several times.

Also, why these almighty beings with 'matter creation' simply didn't created a second galaxy with which to combat the first or simply brainwashed anyone within said galaxy. Could it be that their tech or sorcery wasn't potent enough? Incidentally, matter to energy conversion was easy in the SW universe, and any Jedi who is willing to dive deep enough into the dark side can reach almost unlimited levels of power (especially if all he wants to do with it is a simple mass genocide of certain species - the DS would be happy to oblige) - so no real differences here.

Hell, if SW Galaxy needed a huge force boost, they have Valley of the Jedi - a skilled force user within it can explode stars on the other side of the galaxy with mere thought, killing all living beings in said system without destroying it would be almost too easy for him/her.

As far as combat systems go - if you need to bring out VPKs to match a simple Super Star Destroyer's firepower, then I wonder how they would answer to World Devastators - with their superheavy shielding (multifaceted and multilayered shield that easily withstood and entire fleet barrage targeting a single WD), ability to pretty much instantly annihilate something as large as star destroyer, and possibly even larger ships, while converting said annihilated ships into a constant stream of fighters, cruisers or even new WD's on the field. Even planet killer wouldn't stand a chance against them, given that they can immobilize targeted ships before devouring them.

How am I backtracking? My original post on the matter specified the entire system. Unless you're confusing it with the Great Machine, which is indeed a planet, but made by another race.

You do realize that when they say "Planetoids", they are talking about things larger than the asteroid blown up in ESB, right?

The "Rag Tag races" never handed the Vorlons their asses. They only time casualties were inflicted, First One tech was involved. The younger races didn't score a kill on anything larger than a fighter without help.

As for why the Shadows and Vorlons stayed behind: That's been covered earlier in the thread. They stayed behind specifically to guide the younger races. The other First ones ascended and left the galaxy.

I seriously doubt a super star destroyer could match a Vorlon Planet Killer. Canon states that only ONE Vorlon Planet killer has ever been destroyed, and that was during one of the rather devastating wars between all the first one races. World Devastators are very similar to how the Shadow Planet Killer works.

As for the Valley of the Jedi: I'm not sure it would work on the Vorlons. They are well and truly immortal. The only way to kill one is to find the pocket of another dimension where they hold the master consciousness and destroy that.

[Tyrant]

The "Rag Tag races" never handed the Vorlons their asses. They only time casualties were inflicted, First One tech was involved. The younger races didn't score a kill on anything larger than a fighter without help.
Didn't the Centauri destroy a few Shadow ships with some nuclear bombs on Centauri Prime? The bombs couldn't have been that powerful since life seems to still inhabit the planet decades later. Again, since we are assuming some level of comparitive power between the Shadows and Vorlons, this tells me they aren't all that.

[Krrth]

Didn't the Centauri destroy a few Shadow ships with some nuclear bombs on Centauri Prime? The bombs couldn't have been that powerful since life seems to still inhabit the planet decades later. Again, since we are assuming some level of comparative power between the Shadows and Vorlons, this tells me they aren't all that.

You mean the unpowered and unmanned ships? As I recall, the fusion bombs used destroyed the entire island and caught the vessels without their CPUs or shields up.

[Alex Knight]

You mean the unpowered and unmanned ships? As I recall, the fusion bombs used destroyed the entire island and caught the vessels without their CPUs or shields up.

Londo Mollari: "Yessss, your ships are quite powerful in the sky or in space. But right now, at this moment, they are on the ground." <triggers massive explosion>

[Wardog]

I'll answer as best I can.

5) Destroy entire planets, much like the Death Star. Here's a link to what is known of the capabilities (http://www.b5tech.com/vorlon/vorlonships/vorlonplanetkiller.html).


Is that site accurate?

It claims 1-2km sizes for capital ships, and I'm pretty sure B5 ships were much more "realistic" sizes (e.g. 300m or there abouts, although I can't remember where I got that information).

[Krrth]

It looks about right, especially if you consider modern day Aircraft carriers reach over 300 m.

I can't vouch for all the numbers, but here is a size comparison (http://www.b5tech.com/science/scale/sizecharts/2.htm).

[Llama231]

I would go with the empire by the sheer difference in technology. The Vorlons are supposed to be all super technological, but the empire has had far better transportation (warp drive) for 25 THOUSAND years, signifigantly ahead of the Vorlons.

[Innis Cabal]

Yes, but they can't stop time. Transport isn't the real issue here, the fire power and over all tech level of the Vorlons far exceeds that of the Empire.

[Dervag]

I seriously doubt a super star destroyer could match a Vorlon Planet Killer. Canon states that only ONE Vorlon Planet killer has ever been destroyed, and that was during one of the rather devastating wars between all the first one races. World Devastators are very similar to how the Shadow Planet Killer works.That said, an SSD does seem to be able to do what a Vorlon Planet Killer does- blast the surface of a planet into a crater field.

[Krrth]

That said, an SSD does seem to be able to do what a Vorlon Planet Killer does- blast the surface of a planet into a crater field.

Um, no? Check a few pages back. The Vorlon planet killer turns the planet into an asteroid field, not a crater field. Slight difference in firepower.

[Alex Knight]

I would go with the empire by the sheer difference in technology. The Vorlons are supposed to be all super technological, but the empire has had far better transportation (warp drive) for 25 THOUSAND years, signifigantly ahead of the Vorlons.

Actually, the Vorlons have had FTL capability for millions of years. A tad longer than the Empire, don'tcha think?

It was the Vorlons who emplaced the JumpGate network throughout known space in the B5 universe, reasoning that the technology needed to USE them was far less than the technology needed to understand why they worked. This was done in an effort to prevent new races from advancing to "First One" technology prior to discovering Hyperspace.

[Llama231]

Actually, the Vorlons have had FTL capability for millions of years. A tad longer than the Empire, don'tcha think?

It was the Vorlons who emplaced the JumpGate network throughout known space in the B5 universe, reasoning that the technology needed to USE them was far less than the technology needed to understand why they worked. This was done in an effort to prevent new races from advancing to "First One" technology prior to discovering Hyperspace.

Then during the war, why did they use jump gates when for example, the shadows did not?

[Krrth]

Then during the war, why did they use jump gates when for example, the shadows did not?


The Vorlons don't HAVE to use the jump gates, but the can. Their ships are fully capable of generating a jump point on their own.

Shadow vessels also use hyperspace, they just developed a different way of entering and exiting.

[Alex Knight]

Then during the war, why did they use jump gates when for example, the shadows did not?

Jump gates are Vorlon tech. Why *wouldn't* they use 'em?

The Shadows developed a different method for entering Hyperspace and used that. They didn't use the Gates because:

a.) as First Ones, they'd already developed their own method of Hyperspace travel

and

b.) It's VORLON technology. Shadows aren't about to use the technology of their ancient rivals.

[Llama231]

Well then, what do the Vorlons have?

[warty goblin]

Well then, what do the Vorlons have?

Umm, Hyperspace?

[Alex Knight]

Well then, what do the Vorlons have?

An entirely different method of entering Hyperspace.

See, in Star Wars, everyone enters hyperspace in the same way.

In Babylon 5....99% of Sentients in the 3rd Age of Mankind enter hyperspace using Vorlon methods, even if they don't realize it.

The other 1% are the Shadows and remaining First Ones. They all use their OWN methods for entering hyperspace...be it the Infinite Improbability Drive, or drunken sea monkies, or pixie dust.

[Llama231]

So, then, The Empire IS better off on this point?

[warty goblin]

An entirely different method of entering Hyperspace.

See, in Star Wars, everyone enters hyperspace in the same way.

In Babylon 5....99% of Sentients in the 3rd Age of Mankind enter hyperspace using Vorlon methods, even if they don't realize it.

The other 1% are the Shadows and remaining First Ones. They all use their OWN methods for entering hyperspace...be it the Infinite Improbability Drive, or drunken sea monkies, or pixie dust.

The way I think it probably went was the Shadows and other First Ones came up with other, better means of getting into and out of hyperspace. The Vorlons, never ones to think small, instead decided to find a better hyperspace. Hence Thirdspace, which probably would have worked brilliantly if it wasn't full of endless hordes of extradimensional space Nazis. Needless to say this made its use something of a problem if your own, or the universe's, survival ranked high on your list of priorities, so that idea was scrapped.

After that, well, sticking with the existing method probably worked better to accomplish the Vorlon's goals. After all, if you use the same method as everybody else, doesn't that mean you aren't all that different? Anyway, the Shadow method of entering hyperspace is kinda creepy, and there's no way the Vorlons would want that.

[Alex Knight]

So, then, The Empire IS better off on this point?

No. Actually, the Vorlon method of hyper travel is superior because of the Jump Gates allowing STL ships into Hyper, but since the Vorlons are First Ones, *all* of their ships are FTL.

the Shadow method for entering Hyperspace isn't better than the Vorlon method. It's just *different*.