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pearl jam
2008-12-31, 07:45 AM
If I want to make an Arcane Archer, what's more useful, Skirmish and other Scout features or Sneak and other Rogue features? Also, how many levels of Wizard and Scout or Rogue would you recommend with a 3 class limit?

Eldariel
2008-12-31, 08:01 AM
Arcane Archer needs max. levels of Wizards. The only worthwhile Arcane Archer-ability is the level 2 Imbued Arrow, which requires lots of spellcasting. So take max casting, two levels of AA and make maximal use of that spell.

To answer that question, it's complex. Sneak Attack is easy to activate through (Improved) Invisibility and the like; spells you've got access to yourself. Skirmish on the other hand goes great with Imbued Arrow as it's a standard action anyways. Though, since Imbued Arrow is mostly about the spell with the arrow damage being secondary, the fact that you can with less effort use Sneak Attack on a full attack would make me lean towards Rogue if you need one level of either. Other than that though, full Wizard/Gish-levels to make use of the one worthwhile ability Arcane Archer has (Enhance Arrow, meet Greater Magic Weapon; others are once per day, Seeking Arrow and Phase Arrow can't be used with full attack so they actually lower your damage; also can't be used with Imbue Arrow, Hail of Arrows practically never gives you more attacks than a full attack and can be focused and is still 1/day, Arrow of Death has a DC 20 on level 15; no creature on that level can really fail it, and making one takes forever).

pearl jam
2008-12-31, 08:13 AM
So, actually, you're saying just Wizard X/Arcane Archer 2 is better than including Rogue or Scout levels?

This is for NWN with PRC, by the way, if that makes any difference. Single player.

Eldariel
2008-12-31, 08:32 AM
So, actually, you're saying just Wizard X/Arcane Archer 2 is better than including Rogue or Scout levels?

This is for NWN with PRC, by the way, if that makes any difference. Single player.

NWN as in Neverwinter Nights? Last I checked, that game didn't even have the Scout-class. Makes for a world of difference though. NWN works very differently from standard D&D. For one, Greater Magic Weapon doesn't last forever, I recall, and the game goes well into the epic with the addon, which means that the epic progression comes into play and is actually relevant. Also, Imbue Arrow adds damage. In NWN, you'll want to take the full 10 levels of AA. See this: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_archer

Basically, everything is different in NWN. You should actually minimize your Wizard-level when heading into AA, because unlike in standard D&D, it grants you no benefits. Fighter-levels for Weapon Specialization (standard, not Greater) are worth considering. I'll need to know what you're talking about regarding Scout though; as I said, I don't think that class exists in NWN.

pearl jam
2008-12-31, 08:47 AM
I have the Player Resource Cosortium's custom content which adds TONS of base and prestige classes to Neverwinter Nights. (Not entirely without bugs, of course. :P)



http://www.nwn2prc.com/index.php


But, disregarding Scout or the PRC for a minute, why is the standard action vs. full attack trade worthwhile in NWN?

Telonius
2008-12-31, 08:50 AM
Arcane Archer is one of the weaker PrC's out there, but this will give you benefits of both of the core classes. I'm assuming the "three classes" means three base classes and doesn't include your PrC.

Rogue 1/Scout 1-4/Rogue 2-5/Wizard1/Arcane Archer 1-x

Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
3 Weapon Focus (Longbow)
5 (Scout Bonus) Swift Ambusher (from Complete Scoundrel)
6 Precise Shot
9 Rapid Shot
15 Manyshot
18 Greater Manyshot (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat))

With this arrangement, you'll be doing Skirmish damage as though you were a 9th level Scout at level 10. Sneak Attack dice are also added when applicable. You'll need a Dexterity of 17 to get Manyshot, but that should be fairly easy to get.

If this doesn't work, the following might.

Scout 9/Wizard1/Arcane Archer X

Feats
1 Point Blank Shot
3 Weapon Focus (Longbow)
4 Precise Shot (Scout)
6 Rapid Shot
8 Improved Skirmish (Scout Bonus, from CSco)
9 Manyshot
12 Greater Manyshot
15 Improved Rapid Shot (CWar)
18 Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild)

EDIT: And I take massive damage from an onslaught of ninjas. That'll teach me to research while posting. :smallbiggrin: No idea about NWN, sorry.

Eldariel
2008-12-31, 08:53 AM
But, disregarding Scout or the PRC for a minute, why is the standard action vs. full attack trade worthwhile in NWN?

NWN Arcane Archer has way different class abilities than the standard AA. For example, Seeking Arrow has double damage. Also, getting enhanced weapons is much more non-trivial in NWN. The big thing though is that Imbued Arrow doesn't use spells, but rather deals damage. So you don't need the Wizard-levels to make the class worthwhile and indeed, it gives nothing to aspiring Wizard Archers now. So that's the reason.

pearl jam
2008-12-31, 08:54 AM
I know Archers in general are not the most powerful, but they are cool and I thought the Imbue Arrow ability sounds like fun to play around with.

This is for Neverwinter Nights, so the 3 class limit is a hard limit that includes Prestige classes. It appears that you feel Scout is more useful than Rogue, so perhaps that answers my question...

pearl jam
2008-12-31, 08:58 AM
NWN Arcane Archer has way different class abilities than the standard AA. For example, Seeking Arrow has double damage. Also, getting enhanced weapons is much more non-trivial in NWN. The big thing though is that Imbued Arrow doesn't use spells, but rather deals damage. So you don't need the Wizard-levels to make the class worthwhile and indeed, it gives nothing to aspiring Wizard Archers now. So that's the reason.



They (PRC) have modified some of the functionality to make it more like PNP. There are options that are selectable so that you can choose between Bioware style behavior or behavior that is modeled more closely to match PNP rules, so if I can get imbue arrow working, it should be like PNP.

Eldariel
2008-12-31, 09:07 AM
If it's close to PnP, the class is worth it for 2 levels and you need to maximize your Wizard-levels. Otherwise it's full class and you need to minimize your Wizard-levels. As for the class, I don't know how they implemented Skirmish. It all really depends on how hard it's to activate. If it can easily be combined with Imbue Arrow, Scout is probably good enough. Otherwise, I'd take some Rogue and enjoy the ease of Sneak Attacking with buffs. But yea, if it's PnP AA, even just Wizard/AA/Gish PrC could be worth it for the BAB and casting.

pearl jam
2008-12-31, 09:12 AM
Ok. Thanks for the advice. :)

Darrin
2008-12-31, 09:29 AM
If I want to make an Arcane Archer, what's more useful, Skirmish and other Scout features or Sneak and other Rogue features?


The most useful part of any Arcane Archer build is completely avoiding any levels of Arcane Archer.

As far as Skirmish vs. Sneak Attack... it depends on if you want to go melee or ranged. Sneak Attack is limited to 30' (unless you're going crossbow sniper), so it can be difficult to use with bows. Skirmish damage works at any range, but scales up much more slowly. Since you specified you wanted an "archer" build, then I'd probably recommend Skirmish.

It's possible to shoehorn two levels of Arcane Archer into my typical Swift Hunter build, but they would come into play fairly late. Rather than wizard, I generally use Dragon Devotee to pick up a level of Sorcerer and use Unseen Seer to advance spellcasting and Skirmish damage:

Scout 4/Ranger 5/Dragon Devotee 4/Arcane Archer 2/Unseen Seer 4/Spellsword +1

BAB: +17
Skirmish: 7d6 or 9d6 with Improved Skirmish
Spellcasting: 1st level Ranger spells, 3rd level Sorcerer spells



Also, how many levels of Wizard and Scout or Rogue would you recommend with a 3 class limit?

Could you explain what you mean by a 3-class limit? Do PrCs count, or just base classes?

If you go a Wizard/Scout route, it depends on which spells you want to use with Imbue Arrow. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of spells that really *benefit* from Imbue Arrow. Most of the offensive wizard spells are either area effect and thus don't require an attack roll to target, or are ranged touch spells, which means trying to target them by firing an arrow probably has a poorer chance of hitting what you want to hit. There are two types of spells that might be better with Imbue Arrow:

1) Touch range spells. Although your odds of hitting might be worse if you shoot an arrow instead, you can avoid standing next to anything that wants to squish you.

2) Burst spells centered on the caster. Again, you avoid standing next to enemies, but you now run the risk that your arrow misses its target when before there was no way to "miss". Also, you avoid hurting any friendlies standing next to you, but you also run the risk of your arrow missing and scattering into your front-line meatshields.

If you can find some decent spells in the 1st/2nd/3rd range, then you might want to just go with something like Wiz 5/Arcane Archer 2/Scout 13. As you may have noticed, however, the more levels of Arcane Archer/Scout you take, your spellcasting grinds down to a halt. A Wizard 5 gets maybe two 3rd level spells... so the best you can hope for is maybe two vampiric touches per day? With only 5 caster levels, that's maybe an extra 2d6 damage so you're better off spending those 5 wizard levels on something that advances Skirmish damage.

If you try to maximize spellcasting... Scout 1/Wizard 12/Arcane Archer 2/Wizard +5. You still get 9th level spells, but you're 3 levels behind other straight spellcasters. Sure, you can hit someone with an arrow 300 feet away and nail them with a no-save irresistable dance, but there are more devastating combos that a straight wizard can pull off three levels before you got there.

If you try and go somewhere in the middle... maybe Scout 5 for 2d6 skirmish damage, then you're looking at Wizard 12 or 13 maximum, then you're playing something that's not a very good wizard and not a very good scout. Scout 9 is where 3d6 skirmish kicks in, which leaves you with Wizard 9... that might be a bit more balanced, but I can't imagine it'd be all that impressive.

ericgrau
2008-12-31, 10:03 AM
Arcane archer has one ability at 2nd level useful to arcane casters, and it's not all that special. Imbue arrow only works with area spells. There are few area spells that don't already have some range to them. Plus you hurt your casting with those two levels. Outside of anti magic fields, I don't know too many options. It doesn't really seem to be worth the lost casting.

Rogues and skirmishers will do more damage if they continue their sneak attack or skirmish damage progression, assuming they can trigger SA's. And if they can't, why get SA at all?

The arcane archer class works best with full BAB archers. You can fill your bow with damage enchantments and use the class' enhancement bonus for a further boost. It's like arcane archers have the "aweseome BAB progression", beyond the normal 3. Which means a great deal of your attacks hit. With damage enchantments you can easily pull of 50-60 damage per arrow at higher levels. Against any target, at almost any range. With rapid shot and boots of speed or another source of haste, 3 of your arrows are at full BAB. The other 3 can still get a good number of hits too. This approach also synergizes well with all the various arcane archer goodies.