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View Full Version : What is it wizards do? [Arcane Spell Failure]



Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-31, 09:59 PM
This is a bit of a joke thread, centered around Arcane Spell Failure:

Also, breakdancing to cast spells? Its always been my interpretation that that is almost exactly what Wizards do. I mean, the somatic components are so freaking complex that even wearing 10lbs of heavy cloth or a 5lb piece of wood on your arm can cause you to screw up if you don't have some sort of special training. Meanwhile the Crusader and Warblade (heck, even the Fighter) have little problem pulling off crazy stuff while in armor that would cause Wizards to fail 20-40% of the time. The Wizard must be doing incredibly elaborate things. An old decrepit man with a cane, reaching into a little pouch at his side, pulling out some bat guano, and then suddenly he starts doing somersaults and breakdances, until *Wham* there's a fireball. I find the idea hilarious :smallbiggrin:

So here is my challenge to you people, what is it wizards do, that means that there is such a big chance of failing when wearing practically anything but a loincloth?

ShadowFighter15
2008-12-31, 10:05 PM
Since I can't resist. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mljdpRp41I4)

Or would that be circle magic? :smalltongue:

Malacode
2008-12-31, 10:05 PM
I see it as a difficulty in fine movement while wearing certain armour. Gauntlets mean the range of movement in the fingers needed for the Somatic component is impossible to achieve, the breastplate + pauldrons of fullplate limit the degree of freedom required in the arms, etc... Mithral isn't so bad as it's stronger and therefore thinner and lighter. Leather is a problem because of its bulk.

LibraryOgre
2008-12-31, 10:14 PM
Wizard's Guild (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b9nptjUs9FM).

Ice Elementalist (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp-is6S_b_g&feature=related)

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-31, 10:16 PM
Justifying arcane spell failure is up to the GM. In campaigns where I use it, I typically come up with some lame metaphysical reason for armor to interfere. But breakdancing wizards is amusing.

They got rid of ASF in 4E, btw. Now if you want to wear full plate as a wizard, it just takes a large feat investment.

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-31, 10:20 PM
Since I can't resist. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mljdpRp41I4)

Wizard's Guild (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b9nptjUs9FM).

Ice Elementalist (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp-is6S_b_g&feature=related)
:smalleek: I knew that Wizards were good at bending reality, but doing that in less than 6 seconds is freaky. Perhaps that's why it merely looks like they're waiving their hands...

Myou
2008-12-31, 10:20 PM
What they do is they perform keyhole surgery on the laws of physics in the middle of battle using nothing bat poo and eggshells as their tools. Without anaesthetic.

Zeful
2008-12-31, 10:21 PM
This is a bit of a joke thread, centered around Arcane Spell Failure:
An old decrepit man with a cane, reaching into a little pouch at his side, pulling out some bat guano, and then suddenly he starts doing somersaults and breakdances, until *Wham* there's a fireball. I find the idea hilarious :smallbiggrin:

So here is my challenge to you people, what is it wizards do, that means that there is such a big chance of failing when wearing practically anything but a loincloth?

I like to think of it as "The Core"'s kind of reasoning. You need to move your hands in very specific movements, that require timing to the 100th of a second, and positioning down to less than a 64th of an inch. We're not talking Naruto handsigns here. These are movements with very small margin's of error.

Starscream
2008-12-31, 10:49 PM
Since I can't resist. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mljdpRp41I4)

I must admit, I nearly fell out of my chair.

I usually prefer to come up with some sort of alternate explanation than it simply requiring complicated movements, or else you'd think dexterity would be a factor, and old wizards would be worse at it than young ones.

Like maybe the metal in the full plate conducts magic like electricity or something. Or maybe their bodies conduct the magic and it can only move through so much material, so any thicker than normal clothing can impede it.

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-31, 10:59 PM
Can't wait to get home, so I can take a look at those links.

Bayar
2008-12-31, 11:01 PM
Just use spells that dont have somatic components.

You can be a warforged with adamantite body and a steel tower shield and still PWN people.

Power words anyone ?

Flickerdart
2008-12-31, 11:17 PM
Just use spells that dont have somatic components.

You can be a warforged with adamantite body and a steel tower shield and still PWN people.

Power words anyone ?
Or just use Still Spell. Or, if you really want to, use Psionics or Divine spells, neither are hampered by armour.

LibraryOgre
2008-12-31, 11:52 PM
Can't wait to get home, so I can take a look at those links.

Trust me, you can.

Roderick_BR
2008-12-31, 11:56 PM
Let's see you breakdancing when wearing the equivalent of a bullet proof jacket, or a full jacket. Or with a 5lb piece of wood tied to your arm, throwing off your balance. Then you'll know why it gets in the way of arcane casters. :smallwink:

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-01, 12:09 AM
Nah, I have a websense filter at my work, so youtube is blocked.

BRC
2009-01-01, 12:14 AM
Before reading this thread, I just imagined Wizards waving their arms a little, making some handsigns, and then pointing. Now, I have an urge to houserule that all wizards carry a piece of cardboard if they want to cast spells.


And now I'm imagining a scene from our latest session where a halfling sorceror cast a fireball from midair (After being thrown) by breakdancing.

Starsinger
2009-01-01, 12:18 AM
An old decrepit man with a cane, reaching into a little pouch at his side, pulling out some bat guano, and then suddenly he starts doing somersaults and breakdances, until *Wham* there's a fireball. I find the idea hilarious :smallbiggrin:

I guess I'm the only one who now is suspicious of the Six Flags guy.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-01, 12:32 AM
Look how Magus in Chrono Trigger casts spells - you need unburdened arm movement to pull off these kinds of eighties rock star gestures!

tyckspoon
2009-01-01, 01:37 AM
Look how Magus in Chrono Trigger casts spells - you need unburdened arm movement to pull off these kinds of eighties rock star gestures!

The fact that Magus wears the same (generally heavy- some of it is made of raw rock) armor as everybody else in that game does somewhat damage his applicability as an example.

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-01, 01:54 AM
And lets not forget the classic, Solo's trademark: the somatic components for Time Stop (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Jpgakltm4).

The somatic components for Misdirection (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) are likewise obvious.

Flickerdart
2009-01-01, 02:01 AM
The somatic components for Misdirection (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) are likewise obvious.
The irony is that the link's broken.

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-01, 02:09 AM
It works for me. You should check it again (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0).

monty
2009-01-01, 02:10 AM
The somatic components for Misdirection (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) are likewise obvious.

I refuse to click on that.

On a similar note:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/party.png

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-01, 02:11 AM
I refuse to click on that.

On a similar note:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/party.png
with good reason :smalltongue:

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-01, 02:13 AM
How about this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) for cause fear?

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-01, 03:06 AM
How about this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) for cause fear? I guess that'd work.

Myou
2009-01-01, 07:40 AM
I'm currently imagining an entire wizard's guilt breaking into a massive song and dance number so awesome that it allows them to defy physics.

Wizards must be the happiest people in the world. ^^

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-01, 08:03 AM
This might be what they're doing. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGpVcdqeS0)

Asheram
2009-01-01, 10:16 AM
This might be what they're doing. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGpVcdqeS0)

Yup. Ritual spellcasting at its finest in order to induce Hideous laughter in multiple targets

UserClone
2009-01-01, 10:32 AM
I'm currently imagining an entire wizard's guilt breaking into a massive song and dance number so awesome that it allows them to defy physics.

Wizards must be the happiest people in the world. ^^

Now you're encroaching on bard territory. No one can out-gay a bard!:smalltongue:

BobVosh
2009-01-01, 11:03 AM
And lets not forget the classic, Solo's trademark: the somatic components for Time Stop (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Jpgakltm4).

The somatic components for Misdirection (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0) are likewise obvious.

I assume the pelvic thrust is just indicative of what they are going to do to you?

Anyway, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYFDYX4i2EY) is what they do.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-01, 11:17 AM
In earlier editions (2E), ASF was fluffed as the metal distorting the magic (which meant that wizards could wear leather or hide, if they really wanted to, but the old Armor spell was quite a bit better than that).
Of course, this lead to problems (?) where people tied up wizards in iron chains. So to prevent that, 3E made up the excuse of the delicate movement.



They got rid of ASF in 4E, btw. Now if you want to wear full plate as a wizard, it just takes a large feat investment.
Ironically, wizards went from having the worst AC to having one of the best, because they add their int bonus to armor class. But not if they wear full plate, which is why they won't. But the 4E fluff is also silly; it asserts that if you wear a leather jacket without having been trained in wearing leather jackets, you take substantial penalties to pretty much everything you try.

Morty
2009-01-01, 11:27 AM
Of course, this lead to problems (?) where people tied up wizards in iron chains.

Am I the only one who fails to see the problem in wizards being more easily restrained?

Kurald Galain
2009-01-01, 11:31 AM
Am I the only one who fails to see the problem in wizards being more easily restrained?

Hardly :smallbiggrin: But writing non-solutions to non-problems has traditionally been a major part of D&D design.

Lemur
2009-01-01, 11:32 AM
Don't mind me, just summoning some warforged. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDnXjx6Ht70)

Starbuck_II
2009-01-01, 11:51 AM
We're not talking Naruto handsigns here. These are movements with very small margin's of error.

You may not know that Naruto was originally designed as Wizard hence the somatic components.

Myou
2009-01-01, 01:01 PM
Now you're encroaching on bard territory. No one can out-gay a bard!:smalltongue:
My wizard can! D:<

He's a naked fairy boy in a thong! (Seriously.)

UserClone
2009-01-01, 01:04 PM
:smalleek: I think that you and I are using the word "gay" in far, far different ways, my friend...

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-01, 01:07 PM
... naked ... in a thong!

How does that work?

Myou
2009-01-01, 01:16 PM
:smalleek: I think that you and I are using the word "gay" in far, far different ways, my friend...

I disagree. :o


How does that work?

It's what we call 'an expression'. xD

Arbitrarity
2009-01-01, 03:52 PM
if you wear a leather jacket without having been trained in wearing leather jackets, you take substantial penalties to pretty much everything you try.

This makes perfect sense to me.

LibraryOgre
2009-01-01, 04:13 PM
In earlier editions (2E), ASF was fluffed as the metal distorting the magic (which meant that wizards could wear leather or hide, if they really wanted to, but the old Armor spell was quite a bit better than that).


You are wrong.

Page 30 of the 2nd edition PH "There are even unfounded theories that claim the materials in most armors disrupt the delicate fabric of a spell as it gathers energy; the two cannot exist side by side in harmony. While this idea is popular with the common people, true wizards know this is simply not true. If it were, how would they ever be able to cast spells requiring iron braziers or metal bowls?"

Emphasis added.

And this says nothing about things like Elven Chain, in which fighter/wizards could cast without issue, but straight wizards could not use.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-01, 04:19 PM
Page 30 of the 2nd edition PH "There are even unfounded theories that claim the materials in most armors disrupt the delicate fabric of a spell as it gathers energy;
Interesting. So what was the reason again - wizards being not strong enough to wear armor, regardless of what their strength score actually is?

Mike_G
2009-01-01, 06:52 PM
Interesting. So what was the reason again - wizards being not strong enough to wear armor, regardless of what their strength score actually is?


That sounds like AD&D.

Mike_G
2009-01-01, 07:00 PM
How's about Animate Dead (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyJbIOZjS8)

monty
2009-01-01, 07:02 PM
How's about Animate Dead (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyJbIOZjS8)

Can't believe I didn't think of that one.

Assassin89
2009-01-01, 07:05 PM
Here's one for irresistible dance (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6e7sO1ss0)

UserClone
2009-01-01, 09:08 PM
Insanity (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YMMQqE9x6i4), anyone?
Or, I suppose, confusion is a better way to describe virtual insanity.:smallamused:

monty
2009-01-01, 09:10 PM
Here's one for irresistible dance (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6e7sO1ss0)

Nah. This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcOZ6xFxJqg)'s better.

LibraryOgre
2009-01-01, 09:28 PM
Interesting. So what was the reason again - wizards being not strong enough to wear armor, regardless of what their strength score actually is?

About what it is in 3e; somatic components are tricky enough that armor impedes them, and single-classed wizards never learned to use armor, since they were busy with books. Since Elven Chain was described as being about as encumbering as long underwear (per A&E), it doesn't pose that problem.

Mind you, 1st edition multi-classed magic-users didn't have a BTB problem with wearing armor.

Assassin89
2009-01-01, 09:52 PM
Nah. This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcOZ6xFxJqg)'s better.

Then the movement I suggested should be used for charm person (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=UX6e7sO1ss0)

Heliomance
2009-01-02, 07:09 AM
Nope, this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M4mUUyUCcyU) is Otto's Irresistable Dance.

BobVosh
2009-01-02, 07:17 AM
Come on, noone is going to tackle this boards favorite spell?

Someone has to have a mindrape spell dance...

Heliomance
2009-01-02, 07:31 AM
Here you go. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_yoJI-Tl94g)

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-02, 01:05 PM
Come on, noone is going to tackle this boards favorite spell?

Someone has to have a mindrape spell dance...
How about this? (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2wMJT1o9Yk)

nightwyrm
2009-01-02, 03:02 PM
Mass Dominate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNZTF4amvw)

Shades of Gray
2009-01-02, 03:33 PM
But the 4E fluff is also silly; it asserts that if you wear a leather jacket without having been trained in wearing leather jackets, you take substantial penalties to pretty much everything you try.

I believe that's called "Armor Check Penalty":smallamused: And I believe that is 4E crunch, not fluff.

chiasaur11
2009-01-02, 03:47 PM
In earlier editions (2E), ASF was fluffed as the metal distorting the magic (which meant that wizards could wear leather or hide, if they really wanted to, but the old Armor spell was quite a bit better than that).
Of course, this lead to problems (?) where people tied up wizards in iron chains. So to prevent that, 3E made up the excuse of the delicate movement.


Ironically, wizards went from having the worst AC to having one of the best, because they add their int bonus to armor class. But not if they wear full plate, which is why they won't. But the 4E fluff is also silly; it asserts that if you wear a leather jacket without having been trained in wearing leather jackets, you take substantial penalties to pretty much everything you try.

Hey, you think being the Fonz is easy?
You need training to pull that kind of thing off.

BobVosh
2009-01-03, 01:51 AM
How about this? (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2wMJT1o9Yk)

Definitely works as fascinate, couldn't really look away. Oh, and I could do that, but I don't want to.

Ya, thats it.

Collin152
2009-01-03, 03:52 PM
Come on, noone is going to tackle this boards favorite spell?

Someone has to have a mindrape spell dance...

Well, given the nature of a Mindrape, it's hard to see the dance, but to the person beholding it, it looka somthin' lika this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LefNjlf48gU)

Devils_Advocate
2009-01-05, 02:57 AM
You know, if you make arcane spellcasting Dex-based, then the whole arcane spell failure chance from armor actually makes sense.


And I believe that is 4E crunch, not fluff.
"Leather jacket" is fluff, though I don't know if 4E describes leather armor that way (nor how big the nonproficiency penalties are).

sonofzeal
2009-01-05, 03:23 AM
You know... what if there was Dex check (DC = spell level * 2 maybe) to cast spells? ASF could count as a penalty on the check rather than its own separate quantity. Still Spell would give you a +6 on the check, but raise the spell level by 1 as normal (net +4).

Result:
- dex is now more important to the wizard than Con is, reinforcing the "scrawny mage" archetype which was seriously lacking amid all the portly 3.5 int-first-con-second wizards.

- low (<5) level Wizards with decent Dex can get away with lighter armours, but this becomes progressively less viable at higher levels.

- low level magic isn't so hard, but high level magic becomes significantly less reliable, thus balancing out the power curve somewhat.

- Elves would actually make decent wizards, rather than being beaten in their own Favoured Class by Humans, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Goblins, and being given a run for their money by Kobolds.

Heliomance
2009-01-05, 03:26 AM
Well, given the nature of a Mindrape, it's hard to see the dance, but to the person beholding it, it looka somthin' lika this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LefNjlf48gU)

You win an Internet, sir.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-05, 03:27 AM
You win an Internet, sir.

No. NO! FIGHT IT! DON'T GIVE IN! WE LOVE YOU, HELIOMAAAAANCE...!

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-05, 03:30 AM
No. NO! FIGHT IT! DON'T GIVE IN! WE LOVE YOU, HELIOMAAAAANCE...! Jooiiinnn us... no seriously, it was hilarious :smallbiggrin:

FMArthur
2009-01-05, 12:14 PM
Vastly inferior to this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P_BvrtuxAI)

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-05, 12:23 PM
They got rid of ASF in 4E, btw. Now if you want to wear full plate as a wizard, it just takes a large feat investment.

Not just - those feats have STR and CON requirements that no wizard in his right mind (or body?) can meet. Heck, most heavy armor wearing classes probably start without the prerequisites for those feats. Plus the fact that all the wizard applicable armor enchantments can only be applied to cloth armor, so they would be stuck with generic magic armor.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-05, 01:00 PM
Most wizards take Leather Proficiency in 4e, actually (well, the optimized ones). The +2 to AC is nice, and leather enhancements (looking at you, Bloodcut), are still potent.

Izmir Stinger
2009-01-05, 01:47 PM
Most wizards take Leather Proficiency in 4e, actually (well, the optimized ones). The +2 to AC is nice, and leather enhancements (looking at you, Bloodcut), are still potent.

Oh yeah - cause warlocks start with leather proficiency so I guess there are still lots of arcane specific options in leather. And if you want some cloth only type stuff later (like when masterwork robes become available) you can drop the feat through retraining.

Morty
2009-01-05, 01:49 PM
You know, if you make arcane spellcasting Dex-based, then the whole arcane spell failure chance from armor actually makes sense.


Well, I can name at least one system, although a niche one, where Dexterity is important for wizards.

Person_Man
2009-01-05, 02:39 PM
Nah, I have a websense filter at my work, so youtube is blocked.

Me too. Stupid government.

Also, websense is utterly retarded. It blocks gleemax, but not OoTS. It blocks realmshelp after I click on 3 or 4 links, then forgets a few weeks later and lets me look at it again, until I click on a few more links. There seems to be absolutely no rhyme or reason to how it works, except that it doesn't like any high traffic website.

Heliomance
2009-01-05, 07:16 PM
No. NO! FIGHT IT! DON'T GIVE IN! WE LOVE YOU, HELIOMAAAAANCE...!

I'm flattered, but utterly at a loss as to what provoked this outburst.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-05, 07:55 PM
I'm flattered, but utterly at a loss as to what provoked this outburst. You watched the wizard cast Mind Rape on you.

Assassin89
2009-01-05, 09:42 PM
How about this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=j7al5TKaR8M&feature=related) for a certain spell