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detrevnisisiht
2009-01-01, 12:32 PM
Quite simply what are some ways I can lower the dependency on multiple skills for a 12th level monk. Feats, skills and items welcome, with the completes series allowed, and many other books on a case-basis.

KKL
2009-01-01, 01:04 PM
Kung Fu genius and Carmendine Monk I think?

Those are the only two I remember that switches around the Wis dependency of the Monk to...Int I think it was?

Kurald Galain
2009-01-01, 01:08 PM
If those other books allowed include the Tome of Battle, how about changing your class to Swordsage?

Flickerdart
2009-01-01, 02:38 PM
Kung Fu genius and Carmendine Monk I think?

Those are the only two I remember that switches around the Wis dependency of the Monk to...Int I think it was?
Yep. Fist of the Forest prestige class gives you CON to AC, too. You might also want to PrC out into something else, like the Psionic Fist, which would give you access to some much-needed abilities in the form of Psionics while advancing your unarmed damage, AC bonus and speed. You can grab Expansion and make yourself Large (Or Huge if you augment it), boosting your unarmed damage, and that's a trick you'll love.

Also, what race are you? Being Large is going to be a great help, since grappling becomes a halfway decent strategy.

Roderick_BR
2009-01-01, 03:21 PM
If those other books allowed include the Tome of Battle, how about changing your class to Swordsage?

(...) You might also want to PrC out into something else, (...)

In other words: Don't play a monk.

Rei_Jin
2009-01-01, 04:55 PM
Wow, how about we actually help the guy rather than being snarky?

There's a feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds called Intuitive Attack that will allow you to use Wisdom for your melee attack rolls, Zen Archery from Complete Warrior will do the same for your ranged attack rolls.

Other than that, it depends on what you want to move away from what stat, and what you want your monk to be able to do.

Agile Athlete from Races of the Wild allows you to make Jump and Climb checks based on your Dexterity, rather than Strength.

Doing your build with these feats will mean that you don't need Strength.

If you want more damage, pick up Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle and Improved Natural Weapon from the Monster Manual.

Lord Iames Osari
2009-01-01, 05:23 PM
Well, depending on how permissive your DM is, you may want to take a look at the remade monk class here (http://victoriouspress.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=87#p726).

playswithfire
2009-01-01, 05:24 PM
Kalashtar Monk 6/War Mind 6

with Monastic Training as either the first or second level monk bonus feat and Tashalatora[War Mind] (Secrets of Sarlona) as your 6th level feat.

Stacks monk and War Mind levels for AC bonus, unarmed damage and flurry. War Mind 5 gives you sweeping strike that lets you make every attack in your full flurry affect two adjacent opponents. War mind also gives some useful powers that can help out monk, notable expansion as well as some other benefits (including full BAB of course).

Sorry, that doesn't actually help with MAD all that much, but some of the powers you can learn (two 1st level, one 2nd level and one 3rd level) should be able to

Sir Giacomo
2009-01-01, 06:20 PM
Quite simply what are some ways I can lower the dependency on multiple skills for a 12th level monk. Feats, skills and items welcome, with the completes series allowed, and many other books on a case-basis.

I'd suggest to take a look at my monk guide (link below) and the joker monk example of 12th level. It's core only, but you can see what kind skills can be already got (based on a human with INT 14), what kind of items may be of interest, how much your damage already scales even without uber STR, and so on.

- Giacomo

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-01, 06:38 PM
Already been said once, but it is worth repeating. Intuitive Attack. It completely negates the MAD issue with monks.

I can do the math again if you request, but during one of the many debates about monks on this board, I compared the AC you can get with sword/shield fighter to monk with intuitive attack.

The AC the monk has at level 20 matches the AC the fighter will have, assuming an equal dedication to dexterity.

The fighter takes needs STR and CON, and maybe some dex.
The Intuitive Attack monk needs WIS and CON, and maybe some dex.

Your damage still sucks though. You pretty much need to either convince the GM to let you either enchant your unarmed strikes with energy damage effects, or get a magic item that effectively enchants your unarmed strikes. Some GMs will rule that you can use gauntlets that way, but according to the FAQ, if you do that, you can't flurry with them.

The other option for dealing with the lower damage there is to focus on status effects. There are several feats that give you status effects you can use iwth stunning fist. They arrive a little late, and mostly target fort, so there are some issues with that as well.

Another option here is use spell storing for your gauntlets, assuming that is allowed by your GM. That would widen up the status effects you can inflict during a fight, which helps when the thing you are fighting is not a good target for Fort saves.

If you can get the ability to cast chilling touch, that synergizes well, since it is a damage boost that lasts multiple hits, and each hit also has a save on it for str damage.

That is more a sorc/monk combination, though.

Poison is also a potential monk tool, however you may have issues with other PCs not appreciating your use of poison, or with the DM declaring that since poison use is illegal, a lawful aligned character cannot use it. However, once you jump those hurdles, you have a few advantages as a monk once you are immune to poison. You no longer have to worry about poisoning yourself, and depending on your GM, you can use contact poisons with your unarmed strikes.

hopefully there is some insight there. see guys, not everyone says get a ToB, you newb*!

*however, if ToB is allowed, monk is completely outclassed.

Quick comment here:

1- this thread is about to be de-railed into an argument about whether or not monks are balanced.

2- Giacomo's guide relies on a number of contested rules calls, which you want to check and see if your GM agrees with Giacomo on how those things are ruled before you try to use his build.

3- A lot of the issues with the giacomonk can be negated by taking a few levels of sorcerer and the Ascetic Mage feat (not 100% on the name of the feat, but it pretty much uses CHA instead of wisdom for your monk stuff).

monty
2009-01-01, 06:46 PM
Already been said once, but it is worth repeating. Intuitive Attack. It completely negates the MAD issue with monks.

Except, you know, your damage will suck without a decent Str, even if you're consistently hitting.

Signmaker
2009-01-01, 06:53 PM
Except, you know, your damage will suck without a decent Str, even if you're consistently hitting.

From what I've heard, the Status monk doesn't really care about damage. Then again, the idea of tossing a dozen trinkets of status damage isn't a popular one. Does anyone know how well that one works out?

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-01, 07:09 PM
Except, you know, your damage will suck without a decent Str, even if you're consistently hitting.

Since I am sure you read my entire post, I fail to see how you missed the next section:


Your damage still sucks though. You pretty much need to either convince the GM to let you either enchant your unarmed strikes with energy damage effects, or get a magic item that effectively enchants your unarmed strikes. Some GMs will rule that you can use gauntlets that way, but according to the FAQ, if you do that, you can't flurry with them.



Does anyone know how well that one works out?

It works well in some campaigns, and utterly fails in others. The major deciding factor is whether or not your GM likes to use humanoid opponents. That style of monk works really well in my campaigns, because I love to use humanoid opponents. Well, it works reasonably. I have a few additional tweaks to monk that makes it go from reasonable to really well.

Collin152
2009-01-01, 08:01 PM
I'd suggest to take a look at my monk guide (link below) and the joker monk example of 12th level. It's core only, but you can see what kind skills can be already got (based on a human with INT 14), what kind of items may be of interest, how much your damage already scales even without uber STR, and so on.

- Giacomo

Honestly, I would advise against this, especially if one intends to avoid MAD.

Really, the best suggestion given was to use Unarmed Swordsage. Monk is a really poorly designed class.

Flickerdart
2009-01-01, 10:43 PM
From what I've heard, the Status monk doesn't really care about damage. Then again, the idea of tossing a dozen trinkets of status damage isn't a popular one. Does anyone know how well that one works out?
The Status Monk is utterly ineffective against Undead or things with similar immunities, though. So, carry around a jug of holy water.

theMycon
2009-01-02, 12:44 AM
Another vote for "ignore strength". Unless you plan to grapple/trip/etc. a lot, you only need enough to carry your stuff as a light load. You'll need Wis, and Con/dex are always helpful too.

Get intuitive attack (or weapon finesse if you're non-good), for wis (or dex) to hit.

The "Fist of the Forest" prestige class (Complete Champion) gives con to AC, uncanny dodge at level 2, the equivalent of 4 level increases (each) at 1 & 3, and a spattering of other forgettable abilities. This makes Dex now a "cool thing to put a good score into" instead of a necessity.

The Kung-Gu Genius thing mentioned above is apparently from Dragon Magazine (says The X stat to Y Bonus thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889)), therefore almost no GM will approve of it. But that just changes a stat you need, and thus only helps for the "more flexible rogue" type build.

--------------------
General stuff I've learned

If you're going for damage, STR is next to useless. The "worse barbarian" type monk should rely on size increases (Improve nat attack, expansion/belt of growth), extra dice (ascetic rogue and only 1 monk level, flying kick, iron fist, etc), and if you can retrain feats/have lots of spare cash, level increases (Superior unarmed strike, Monk's belt, etc). Your damage dice don't go up past 20th level, despite it being ridiculously easy to attack as a level 20 monk by level 7 or 8. However, getting bigger provides geometric returns, and extra dice provide easier-to-stack linear returns.

If you wanna focus on being the battlefield denial B*****d, then you need Str. It's the only way to trip. Also high dex, combat reflexes, spiked chain and/or large size, and all the "improved trip/grapple/etc" feats.

If you want to play your monk as a less situational rogue, Str is again next to useless. I've suggested carrying 4 or 5 bags of tricks, because they're cheap as heck, provide a flanking partner, and are effectively endless if you keep cycling. Keep your AC up and pester (stunning fist, poisons, bagged bears, tanglefoot bags... whatever you like), basically making it easier for everyone else to do damage.

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-02, 01:14 AM
Really, the best suggestion given was to use Unarmed Swordsage. Monk is a really poorly designed class.

Actually, that is more like not giving any advice at all. If that were allowed, why would he be asking about advice for a monk?

Curmudgeon
2009-01-02, 01:26 AM
Boost your attacks and damage with a Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species and also available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) at the bottom of the page). Add all the enhancements you can afford.

Get a Heward's Handy Haversack to keep your load light despite a low STR score.

KKL
2009-01-02, 01:32 AM
EXCEPT MY GOOD MODERATOR FRIEND, THIS POST WAS NOT IN FACT INSULTING THAT MAN WITH THE BLACK AND WHITE PHOTO.

It was in fact, complimenting him. So if you could revoke that it'd be gravy.

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-02, 02:05 AM
Boost your attacks and damage with a Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species and also available here at the bottom of the page). Add all the enhancements you can afford.

I knew there was a magic item that did that, just didn't know what/where.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-02, 03:51 AM
Actually, that is more like not giving any advice at all. If that were allowed, why would he be asking about advice for a monk?
That depends on whether he wants to play a character who is conceptually a monk archetype, or a character that mechanically uses the class called "monk". The two don't overlap all that much, really. Remember how Miko is conceptually a samurai without having the samurai class? Same thing.

If I want to play a character based on Li Mu Bai, or Friar Tuck, or even Son Goku, I would look for some other mechanical options.

sonofzeal
2009-01-02, 04:32 AM
Actually, that is more like not giving any advice at all. If that were allowed, why would he be asking about advice for a monk?
Because he may not have been aware of the Swordsage.

Specifically, even if he was generally aware of ToB, he may not have seen how well an Unarmed Swordsage focusing on Setting Sun and Diamond Mind really captures the "Monk" paradigm, and wraps it up in a far more effective package.

Tokiko Mima
2009-01-02, 05:27 AM
Monk's issues aren't just MAD, after all. There are also the terrible class features to look forward to, like at level 20 you become even more vulnerable to most magic effects, the slow fall that is not as good as a 1st level arcane spell in nearly every situation, the once a week save or save or maybe die, or the ability to dimension door tens of levels after arcane casters, or the ability not to be penalized for aging (but you still die).

When there is a class that plays more like a Monk should, works well simulating most martial arts, and is fun to use, isn't using that class instead a much more valid solution than trying to fix a class that is sub par in almost every imaginable category? It seems like a lot of work for something that's easy to achieve if you try it another way.

Telonius
2009-01-02, 09:15 AM
I haven't done the math on this one, but have been considering the idea... As long as you have at least 13 Strength, you can take Power Attack. Even though the name of the feat implies you thwack something really hard in order to do more damage to it, that's not necessarily the case. It just takes the bonus out of your Attack bonus, regardless what ability modifier is added to that. Combine it with Intuitive Attack, pump up your Wisdom, get a Quarterstaff and wield it two-handed. You'll be able to Power Attack flurry with the Q'staff, as well as make unarmed attacks against all of your foes if it makes more sense to do so.

Make that thing a Tortle (race from Dragon magazine) and you've created Donatello. :smallbiggrin:

Build possibilities spoilered.

Possible first-level stats (after racial adjustments), 28 point buy:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 8

AC at level 1 is 10 + 1(Dex) + 4 (Wis) + 3 (Natural) +1 (Monk)= 19
Attack bonus is +4

Feats:
1 Intuitive Attack, Stunning Fist
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack
6 Improved Disarm, Improved Natural Attack

Level 6, let's say he attacks a foe.
Flurry, Unarmed Attack: +7/+7, damage d10+2 (avg 7.5 per hit)
Flurry, MW Quarterstaff: +8/+8, damage d6+3 (avg 6.5 per hit)
Regular, Quarterstaff: +9, damage d6+3 (avg 6.5)
Power Attack +1, Quarterstaff: +8, damage d6+5 (avg 8.5)
Power Attack +1 Flurry, Quarterstaff: +7/+7, damage d6+5 (avg 8.5 per hit)
Power Attack +2, Quarterstaff: +7, damage d6+7 (avg 10.5)
Power Attack +2 Flurry, Quarterstaff: +6/+6, damage d6+7 (avg 10.5 per hit)

Not too bad! Not spectacular by any means (a Barbarian is going to blow him out of the water for damage), but better than most Monks are going to get.

Let's take it up to level 11, when the Monk gets Improved Flurry. Assume stat bumps to WIS at 4 and 8.
Flurry, Unarmed Attack: +13/+13/+13/+8, damage 2d6+2 (avg 9 per hit)
Flurry, MW Quarterstaff: +14/+14/+14/+9, damage d6+3 (avg 6.5 per hit)
(No reason to do a regular attack rather than Flurry for Qstaff at this level)
Power Attack +1 Flurry, Qstaff: +13/+13/+13/+8, dmg d6+5 (avg 8.5 per)
Power Attack +2 Flurry, Qstaff: +12/+12/+12/+7, dmg d6+7 (avg 10.5 per)

Note that this would work best in low levels to mid levels. Once the Monk's unarmed damage gets to 2d8 or so (usually at level 12 with a Monk's Belt), you need to start enchanting your Quarterstaff in order to keep up with the unarmed damage. Still, that's not too bad of a power improvement. And if your DM houserules to allow unarmed damage to be channeled through Monk weapons, even better.

If you're using typical Monk tactics and fighting some of the lesser enemies the DM throws at you (and letting the Fighter go after that CR 11 beastie), you're probably going to be running up against CR 9 things. Most of those monsters I've flipped through in the SRD have ACs in the low 20s. You'll probably be hitting them around half the time with Power Attack.

Level 11 basic AC would be 10 + 5 (Wis) + 1 (Dex) + 3 (Natural) + 2 (Monk bonus) = 21. Any stat-boosting items or Bracers would push that up higher.

If the DM doesn't allow Dragon, you can switch to a Human, Elf, Dwarf, or Half-Orc.
Str: 14
Dex: 10 (if Elf) or 12
Con: 10 or 12 (if Elf)
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 8

Compare this to a Strength-focused Half-Orc Monk.
Str: 20
Dex: 10
Con: 10
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 6

Level 6 (Str 21):
To hit: 9
Damage: d10+5 (avg 10.5)
AC: 13

Level 11 (Str 22)
To hit: +14/+14/+14/+9
Damage: 2d6+6 (avg 13)
AC: 14

The Strength-focused Monk is hitting harder (by 6.5 damage) and as often as the Wisdom-focused Quarterstaff Monk. But his AC is much lower (by 7), his saves are worse, his Stunning Fist hits less often, and his skill checks are going to be worse.



EDIT: Yes, the Monk fix is Unarmed Swordsage. But not all DMs have (or allow) Tome of Battle, and some groups play Core only.

Talya
2009-01-02, 10:00 AM
Monks require very high strength, dexterity, constitution, and wisdom, as well as a reasonably high intelligence. This is the worst MAD of any class in the game. Merely moving one ability score dependancy to another doesn't come close to eliminating MAD. By comparison a fighter or wizard need two ability scores (Str and Con, or Con and Int respectively.) A few classes need three.

Unless you find a way to move two or more ability score dependancies to the same ability, you haven't fixed MAD with the monk. Furthermore, spending precious feats on merely fixing a problem with the monk when other classes are spending feats on becoming better at what they do is going to further suck. And that's just fixing one of a monk's many problems..and not necessarily the worst of them. :(

Monks can't be fixed with RAW, you really need some major re-writing and houserule usage, if you don't want to use swordsage.

Telonius
2009-01-02, 10:20 AM
The OP isn't asking for a Monk rewrite, or comparing it to other classes. He's trying to wring advantages out of a bad situation.

If you go with Wis (rather than Str) to hit, and ignore Int (Spot, Move Silent and Tumble will give you a semi-useful scout), you can reduce the ability dependency down to Wis and Dex. This is not the most powerful class, but it can be a more well-rounded Monk.

Talya
2009-01-02, 10:40 AM
The OP isn't asking for a Monk rewrite, or comparing it to other classes. He's trying to wring advantages out of a bad situation.

If you go with Wis (rather than Str) to hit, and ignore Int (Spot, Move Silent and Tumble will give you a semi-useful scout), you can reduce the ability dependency down to Wis and Dex. This is not the most powerful class, but it can be a more well-rounded Monk.

You also need to find a way to get WIS to damage, or you're still strength dependant, just a bit less so. Also, you need con high as well, so you're still stuck with 4 needed ability scores.

playswithfire
2009-01-02, 11:06 AM
I revise my previous answer.
Human Passive Way variant monk 6/War Mind 5/Shiba Protector 1

Feats:
Monk1[Combat Expertise], feat[Alertness], human[Iron Will], flaw[Education], flaw2[Hidden Talent]
Monk2[Monastic Training]
3[Intuitive Attack]
Monk6[Tashalatora(War Mind)] Can someone who can find Secrets of Sarlona confirm that you can take Tashalatora as a monk bonus feat?

Open feats: 6,9,12

WIS to AC, WIS to attack rolls twice, WIS to damage, combat expertise as a bonus feat, so no need for 13 INT
Should get by ok with just WIS,DEX and CON

Still has full flurry and sweeping strike, but won't get the third level psionic power until next level

Kurald Galain
2009-01-02, 11:34 AM
You know, it strikes me as silly that several people here state that "the DM probably won't allow TOB" but nevertheless take it for granted that the DM will allow flaws, or obscure races from Dragon magazine.

As I recall, one of the easiest Monk fixes that is almost certainly allowed by any DM, is simply playing a fighter. Nobody is forcing a fighter to use weapons or armor, and with feats to spare, you'll easily beat the monk at grappling, sundering, disarming, tripping or any other strategy you could possibly need. So I'd suggest adding a fighter dip to the build (preferably 12 levels of it :smalltongue: )


I haven't done the math on this one, but have been considering the idea... As long as you have at least 13 Strength, you can take Power Attack.
Power Attack and a mediocre BAB is not such a stellar combo.


You'll probably be hitting them around half the time with Power Attack.
Indeed, "hitting about half the time" means missing half the time.

Telonius
2009-01-02, 11:41 AM
You also need to find a way to get WIS to damage, or you're still strength dependant, just a bit less so. Also, you need con high as well, so you're still stuck with 4 needed ability scores.

It's quite a bit less strength dependent, if you go in for Power Attack. At level 11, even with a non-enchanted MW quarterstaff, if you power attack for 3 you're only 3.5 damage behind a Strength-focused Monk (who's also doing power attack 3). I would call that about as close to non-Strength-dependent as you can get. This doesn't fix all of the Monk's problems (not by a longshot), but it does remove Strength as a cause for concern.

AmberVael
2009-01-02, 11:47 AM
It's quite a bit less strength dependent, if you go in for Power Attack. At level 11, even with a non-enchanted MW quarterstaff, if you power attack for 3 you're only 3.5 damage behind a Strength-focused Monk (who's also doing power attack 3). I would call that about as close to non-Strength-dependent as you can get. This doesn't fix all of the Monk's problems (not by a longshot), but it does remove Strength as a cause for concern.

After that, you just have to work on the problem of not hitting anything.
3/4 BAB? Not precisely conducive to power attacking, here. You'd need Intuitive Attack or something to even consider it. Oh, and plus you have to have at least 13 strength to get the feat in the first place, so that doesn't really help so much.

Telonius
2009-01-02, 11:53 AM
Power Attack and a mediocre BAB is not such a stellar combo.


No, it's not. But it does give you the same chance to hit as being strength-focused, with only a decease in average damage, and without having the Monk's other central features suffer for it. A Monk is only going to be hitting half the time regardless of which ability score he uses to modify his attack. This isn't necessarily about improving the chances of attack. It's about making the Monk's other abilities (saves, stunning fist, skill checks) suck less while getting the same chance of a hit.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-02, 12:06 PM
It's about making the Monk's other abilities (saves, stunning fist, skill checks) suck less while getting the same chance of a hit.

Seems to me that the primary way to make Stunning Fist suck less would be by improving its chance to hit...

AmberVael
2009-01-02, 12:14 PM
No, it's not. But it does give you the same chance to hit as being strength-focused, with only a decease in average damage, and without having the Monk's other central features suffer for it. A Monk is only going to be hitting half the time regardless of which ability score he uses to modify his attack. This isn't necessarily about improving the chances of attack. It's about making the Monk's other abilities (saves, stunning fist, skill checks) suck less while getting the same chance of a hit.

A monk can increase their chance to hit quite radically if they have less MAD, because then they have higher relevant ability scores (if only slightly), only a few ability scores that they need to use their WBL to improve, and can use races, templates, and various other methods to increase the fewer, more relevant stats instead of spreading them out everywhere.
Intuitive Attack is probably the best for this.

And, as Kurald says, improving your chance to hit is the best thing for a number of monk abilities. Stunning Attack, for example, is declared before you know if it has hit, and is not affected by your damage. Flurry of Blows- the more you can hit with it, the better it becomes (though granted, it still isn't great. Best to find some kind of good damage modifier for it- power attack is decidedly bad with it as it decreases hit chance further.)
This also includes the poor Quivering palm ability. What if you really DO want to try that "kill them with my mighty fist palm ki!" attack? You've got to hit them with that too.

Telonius
2009-01-02, 12:23 PM
Seems to me that the primary way to make Stunning Fist suck less would be by improving its chance to hit...


... which can't really be done any better with a Strength-focused build than with a Wis-to-hit Power Attacking build. A Wis-to-Hit build that doesn't rely on Power Attack will gain one feat on the Power Attacking build, but falls behind on damage.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-02, 12:24 PM
I revise my previous answer.
Human Passive Way variant monk 6/War Mind 5/Shiba Protector 1

Feats:

Monk6[Tashalatora(War Mind)] Can someone who can find Secrets of Sarlona confirm that you can take Tashalatora as a monk bonus feat?
I can confirm that you cannot take Tashalatora as a Monk bonus feat.

ericgrau
2009-01-02, 12:29 PM
A proper monk is dependent mostly on str and con, like most other martial classes. The only core MAD class I know of is the paladin, though bards do better with MAD. Dump wis and int for all I care. Or, better yet, just use this stat priority: str, con, dex, wis, int, cha.

Your most important skill is usually tumble, though others are nice too. As you can guess, even with a penalty to int you could get a minimal skill set. The strat below assumes a low to nonexistant wis bonus.

Gear (88000gp):
misc (12000gp): boots of speed (12000gp, haste 10 rounds/day split up as desired, free action activation/deactivation), cloak of resistance +1
stat boosters (32000gp): belt of strength +4 (16000gp, +4 str), amulet of health +2 (4000gp, +4 con), gloves of dexterity +2 (4000gp, +2 dex), incandescent blue ioun stone (8000gp, +2 wis)
Other AC boosters (29000gp, 7+3=+10 AC or +6 touch AC; including above items): bracers of armor +4 (16000gp), ring of protection +2 (8000gp), dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000gp, +1 insight AC)
TOTAL: 74000gp
I'd also fill up on a bunch of cheap low level potions to handle odd situations, especially mobility based ones. You could also get utility items like boots of flying if needed, but consider potions of jump/spider-climb/etc. instead if the need is infrequent. The first item to dump is the incandescent blue ioun stone if you need more gp. If you want to use scrolls or wands, a 1 level dip into wizard will do better than UMD (make caster level checks for spells higher than 1st level). Otherwise just use potions.

You can save 16000gp on the bracers of armor +4 if a party mage can hit you with mage armor. Buy him a 1000gp pearl of power if it makes you feel better. But I don't see batman mages at a disadvantage b/c they have to ask the party for a 9,000gp pearl of power for every haste, not to mention all his other spells. Nor clerics who charge for healing (usually...). So w/e. Likewise reliable haste saves you 12000gp on boots of speed, though even w/ a party mage I'd get this item anyway unless you're certain the mage will haste you every single time. Other boosts like greater magic weapon from friendly casters can also help. All casters can do something in this area, and it is highly likely that your party will have at least one caster.

I wouldn't bother with a magic weapon unless you get spell storing. But do get some masterwork monk weapons and read their descriptions to see all their bonuses.

Net boost to AC (plus misc defense info): +10 overall, +6 touch, +8 flat-footed. Including AC from other sources (even with a lousy wis, btw) you'll probably be at about 25, which is good. Not great nor bad. And that includes a nice 21 touch AC. Mages of your level have under a 50:50 chance of hitting with ray spells, plus next level you get SR. If you get deflect arrows you can stop ranged attacks in general and force a melee. This, plus saves is way better than any other martial class can muster. Go ahead and laugh at them for struggling and giving up offense just to get a minor save bonus. Be it SoD, domination, or direct damage, your magical defenses outclass other martial classes by a wide margin.

Net boost to AB: +3. Same as other classes might get, plus your unarmed attacks are 1-3 points behind (including boosts from class features other classes get) and your BAB puts you 3 behind. So you're 5ish AB behind them, 4 w/ special attacks using a MW weapon. Two full BAB attacks from greater flurry compensates for at least 4 points of AB (probably more); why else would people take TWF or rapid shot? The ability to target strategic targets (which tend to have low AC) w/ speed & tumble also compensates.

Class Abilities: I'm surprised I even have to say this, but use your major offensive class features. That means monk weapons, flurry which works with unarmed strikes and monk weapons, grapple or stunning fist, force AoO's for combat reflexes if you have it, and disarm or trip. At the very least you should combine unarmed damage with grapple/unarmed strike since it's *free*. Otherwise you'll be using monk weapons which boost disarm or trip. And remember that -5 AB I mentioned? You get some kind of boost to every single special attack (which are attack actions not standard actions, btw) that makes up for it, plus flurry and easy target selection. And every single one helps hold the target there for your flurry (which is worth some AB to be sure). Bam, you're already well ahead of the AB curve with special attacks and flurry, even w/o a good target and even w/o counting the +4 from your feats since other classes can get that same +4. So if you aren't using a special attack almost all the time, you are doing something horribly wrong.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-02, 12:29 PM
A Wis-to-Hit build that doesn't rely on Power Attack will gain one feat on the Power Attacking build, but falls behind on damage.
I seriously doubt that. Damage equals damage-per-hit times chance-to-hit.

AmberVael
2009-01-02, 12:29 PM
... which can't really be done any better with a Strength-focused build than with a Wis-to-hit Power Attacking build. A Wis-to-Hit build that doesn't rely on Power Attack will gain one feat on the Power Attacking build, but falls behind on damage.

You're assuming that damage is so important to a monk. It's possible to make a status effect monk- and if they WANT to do damage, with the way monks work, it is best to find another method than power attack anyways. They can't afford the penalties- they're much better off using other methods. Find ways to increase your base damage (As that typically helps a monk out better than others), or add bonus dice or something. With flurry of blows, you can at least attempt to hit them many times with bonus damage. If you use power attack, you lose the ability to hit repeatedly in exchange for only a modicrum of extra damage.

Telonius
2009-01-02, 12:57 PM
Okay, let's have a look at the chances then. Call it an average AC 20 for a CR 9 foe, fought at 11th level.

Power-Attack Monk with MW Qstaff, power attacking for 2
Needs: 20 to hit; needs to roll an 8 or better - .65 chance, * 10.5 damage = 6.825

Non Power-attack Monk with unarmed attack
Needs: 20 to hit; needs to roll a 7 or better - .7 chance * 9 damage
= 6.3

Non Power-Attack Monk with MW Qstaff (or Power Attack Monk PA 0)
Needs 20 to hit; needs to roll a 6 or better - .75 chance * 6.5
= 4.875

EDIT: Above were for Wis-to-hit. For the Strength-focused Monk:

Attacking normally
Needs: 20 to hit; needs to roll a 6 or better - .75 chance*13
= 9.75
As expected, damage is a lot higher. But as before, his saves and skills are lower, and Stunning Fist works less often.

playswithfire
2009-01-02, 01:02 PM
I can confirm that you cannot take Tashalatora as a Monk bonus feat.

Ah, thanks. Well, take it as 6th or 9th then, and take a standard monk bonus feat. Should still work ok.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-02, 01:07 PM
Okay, let's have a look at the chances then.
None of that is impressive. You're omitting strength bonuses, magical weapon bonuses, additional effects on a hit, fighting under-CR foes, and so forth. That really doesn't make a good example.

And, I might add, one that is easily topped by a non-optimized fighter.

Telonius
2009-01-02, 01:12 PM
None of that is impressive. You're omitting strength bonuses, magical weapon bonuses, additional effects on a hit, fighting under-CR foes, and so forth. That really doesn't make a good example.

And, I might add, one that is easily topped by a non-optimized fighter.

Strength bonuses and magic weapon bonuses can be gotten by both the PA- and non-PA monk. I mentioned the under-CR aspect in the build description; you should leave the big monsters to the full-BAB guys.

Again, this is not an attempt to out-do a fighter, a barbarian, an unarmed swordsage, or any other class. That can't be done with a Monk. It is an attempt to make the Monk less MAD, as the original poster requested.



At CR 11, typical AC is 25-ish.

Power-Attack Monk with MW Qstaff, power attacking for 2
Needs: 25 to hit; needs to roll an 13 or better - .4 chance, * 10.5 damage = 4.2

... with +4 str item and +3 weapon:
Needs: 25 to hit, needs a 11 or better - .5 chance * 16.5 damage
= 8.25

... with +4 wis item and +3 weapon:
Needs: 25 to hit, needs a 9 or better - .6 chance * 13.5 damage
= 8.1

PA monk with MW Qstaff Power attacking for 3
Needs: 25 to hit, needs a 14 or better - .35 chance * 12.5 damage
=4.375

...with +4 str item and +3 weapon:
Needs: 25 to hit, needs an 12 or better - .45 chance * 18.5 damage
= 8.325

...with a +4 wis item and +3 weapon:
Needs: 25 to hit, needs a 10 or better - .55 chance * 15.5 damage
= 8.525

PA for 4
Needs: 25 to hit, needs an 11 or better - .5 chance * 17.5 damage
= 8.75

PA for 5
Needs: 25 to hit, needs a 12 or better - .45 chance * 19.5 damage
= 8.775

PA for 6
Needs: 25 to hit, needs a 13 or better - .4 chance * 21.5 damage
= 8.6

Non Power-attack Monk with unarmed attack (or PA Monk attacking unarmed for no PA)
Needs: 25 to hit; needs to roll a 7 or better - .7 chance * 9 damage
= 6.3

...with a +4 wis item
Needs: 25 to hit; needs to roll a 5 or better - .8 chance * 9 damage
= 7.2

Non Power-Attack Monk with MW Qstaff (or Power Attack Monk PA 0)
Needs 25 to hit; needs to roll an 11 or better - .5 chance * 6.5
= 3.25

... with a +4 str item and +3 weapon:
Needs: 25 to hit, needs a 9 or better - .6 chance * 12.5
= 7.5

... with a +4 wis item and +3 weapon:
Needs: 25 to hit, needs to roll a 7 or better - .7 chance * 9.5
= 6.65

Strength-focused Monk, attacking normally (unarmed)
Needs: 25 to hit; needs to roll a 7 or better - .7 chance*13
= 9.1

... with a +4 str item:
Needs: 25 to hit; needs to roll a 5 or better - .8 chance * 15
= 12

...with a MW quarterstaff (and no str item)
Needs: 25 to hit; needs to roll a 6 or better - .75 chance * 12.5
= 9.375

...with a +3 quarterstaff and +4 str item
Needs: 25 to hit; needs a 4 or better - .85 * 15.5
= 13.175

EDIT: Ack, math errors all over the place in there. I plead hangover. Fixing ...
EDIT2: Fixed, and spoilered the calculations. So, the largest chance of dealing damage goes (unsurprisingly) to the strength-focused Monk. But among the Wisdom-based monk builds, the biggest damage output seems to be the monk with the +4 wis item and +3 Quarterstaff, power attacking for 5.

ericgrau
2009-01-02, 01:36 PM
Again, this is not an attempt to out-do a fighter, a barbarian, an unarmed swordsage, or any other class. That can't be done with a Monk. It is an attempt to make the Monk less MAD, as the original poster requested.

Mine is an attempt to outdo them for certain build styles :smallbiggrin:, and w/o any MAD, in core, no tricks. Specifically it has them beat in magical/ranged defense and special attacks. Direct damage and AC are worse, but still okay. See other post for reasons for all these. But if you're worried about your fighter/barb getting dominated/etc. or you want a tripper/misc.-control build, a monk is miles better at magical defense and much better at control.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-02, 03:48 PM
Net boost to AC (plus misc defense info): +10 overall, +6 touch, +8 flat-footed. Including AC from other sources (even with a lousy wis, btw) you'll probably be at about 25, which is good. Not great nor bad. And that includes a nice 21 touch AC. Mages of your level have under a 50:50 chance of hitting with ray spells, plus next level you get SR. If you get deflect arrows you can stop ranged attacks in general and force a melee. This, plus saves is way better than any other martial class can muster. Go ahead and laugh at them for struggling and giving up offense just to get a minor save bonus. Be it SoD, domination, or direct damage, your magical defenses outclass other martial classes by a wide margin.

So assuming 14 Dex

So your AC is what now? 10+3 Dex +1 Wis +2 Monk AC+4 Armor=20 AC

Of the 14 CR 12 OGL monsters, only three don't automatically hit you on a two. They are the 12 attacks of a twelve headed pyro or cryo hyrda (requires a 3 to hit you), the Kolyarut (a half caster), and the roper.

Those are the ones that don't autohit you.

AC=fail, why even waste that Mage Armor on you?


Net boost to AB: +3. Same as other classes might get, plus your unarmed attacks are 1-3 points behind (including boosts from class features other classes get) and your BAB puts you 3 behind. So you're 5ish AB behind them, 4 w/ special attacks using a MW weapon. Two full BAB attacks from greater flurry compensates for at least 4 points of AB (probably more); why else would people take TWF or rapid shot? The ability to target strategic targets (which tend to have low AC) w/ speed & tumble also compensates.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, because you like to talk about relative numbers to confuse how bad you are behind, and claim +3 Net bonus, which doesn't mean anything.

But as near as I can tell, you have an AB of +9/+9/+9/+4 flurry. You then have a Str score bonus of +5 maybe. Assuming 16 starting. If you borrowed a GMF from the Druid, you get a +3 there.

So now you have an AB of 17. And a bonus on checks for grapple/trip/ect of 18. I'll do the math for both here so I can extra special mock your attempt to suggest using Monk weapons later.

Against CR 12 Monsters, that ranges from autohit to 50% but that's okay, because autohitting is really easy, because AC is crap.

However, your damage is what 2d6+8 per attack? Compared to a Fighter or Barbarian doing 2d6+16 with a GMWed Greatsword, not even counting Power Attack (because they will auto hit, since they'll have a to hit +6 or more over you) or Flaming Frost Weapons.

Now, my favorite part. A complete list of all CR 12 Monsters you can succeed on a Grapple, Trip, or Disarm check against more then 5% of the time:

Kolyarut
Leonal (Grapple or Trip)
Roper (Grapple or Trip)

Yeah, I don't think Grapple, Trip, or Disarm is going to be terribly useful.


Class Abilities: I'm surprised I even have to say this, but use your major offensive class features. That means monk weapons, flurry which works with unarmed strikes and monk weapons, grapple or stunning fist, force AoO's for combat reflexes if you have it, and disarm or trip. At the very least you should combine unarmed damage with grapple/unarmed strike since it's *free*. Otherwise you'll be using monk weapons which boost disarm or trip. And remember that -5 AB I mentioned? You get some kind of boost to every single special attack (which are attack actions not standard actions, btw) that makes up for it, plus flurry and easy target selection. And every single one helps hold the target there for your flurry (which is worth some AB to be sure). Bam, you're already well ahead of the AB curve with special attacks and flurry, even w/o a good target and even w/o counting the +4 from your feats since other classes can get that same +4. So if you aren't using a special attack almost all the time, you are doing something horribly wrong.

So let's see. You have tho following special Monk weapons that actually have a bonus to anything:

Kama: You can trip. That's all. Since you don't want to trip, this isn't terribly important, but whatever.

Nunchaku: -2 to disarms. As compared to +4 with quarterstaff. Bad idea.

Sai: +0 to Disarm, still use a quarterstaff.

Yeah, you might want to carry around a Kama in one hand and never use it for anything until you come across a pushover creature that you can actually trip, just in case you roll bad you can drop the weapon. But it's not actually important.

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-02, 05:18 PM
A monk doesn't actually need dex any more than the fighter needs dex. You effectively have full plate and shield from your wisdom bonus to AC, except its touch AC.

At level 20, a monk that has maxxed out his wisdom has 34 wisdom(18base+5level+6item+5wish), which gives a +12 AC bonus, which is +16 with the class-based AC bonus. Combined with the Bracers of Armor +8, you have a 24 AC, which is better than +5 full plate and +5 shield.

Even if you can't get wishes to boost your wisdom, you still have a 21 AC bonus, compared to the 20 you get from full plate and shield.

Ergo, a monk with intuitive attack does not need dexterity any more than a fighter does.

Which makes the monk Wis/Con. Much like the fighter is Str/Con.

You just aren't doing good damage unless you pull off some wierd stunts.

Power Attack is an option, if not a great one. Getting that amulet to put some energy damage on your unarmed strikes helps as well. Size boosts are probably the best way to boost your damage w/o pumping strength, but aren't very conceptually monk, at least not to me.

Really your best bet here is to focus on your stunning fist and take feats to give you other options with stunning fist.

Much like the rogue, you will be sad when fighting non-squishy opponents, but at least you can flank with the fighter at that point, w/o having the rogue's issue of being easy to beat down due to lower AC and HP.

In fights with squishy opponents, your save DC is good on your stunning fist, so use it to increase the rogue's sneak attack options, and to make people drop things.

Are you as good as other options? No.

Are you completely worthless and a liability to the party? No.




Now, my favorite part. A complete list of all CR 12 Monsters you can succeed on a Grapple, Trip, or Disarm check against more then 5% of the time:

You forgot level 12 fighter, level 12 warrior, level 12 expert, level 12 rogue, level 12 ....etc, etc, you get my point.

Monk is not going to do well in a campaign that mostly involves fighting monsters. It is, however, viable in a campaign that mostly involves fighting humanoid opponents. I imagine that is why I don't see monk as being nearly as bad as folks on these forums, as my campaigns, and most of the campaigns I have been a part of, have involved maybe 60-80% humanoid opponents, frequently in groups of 4 or more that are a few levels lower than the APL.

Which is a favorable environment for monks.

Does it make them top-tier? No.
Does it put them on the bottom with the truenamer*? No.


*truenamew w/o Item Familiar. With Item Familiar you can make a viable truenamer, it just requires breaking that feat to the point that a rogue with the same thing applying to hide instead of truespeaking would be effectively invisible.

Eldariel
2009-01-02, 05:34 PM
At level 20, a monk that has maxxed out his wisdom has 34 wisdom(18base+5level+6item+5wish), which gives a +12 AC bonus, which is +16 with the class-based AC bonus. Combined with the Bracers of Armor +8, you have a 24 AC, which is better than +5 full plate and +5 shield.

Even if you can't get wishes to boost your wisdom, you still have a 21 AC bonus, compared to the 20 you get from full plate and shield.

Eh, enhanced Full-Plate on those levels alone gives +13 to AC. Also, the Wis starts at modest +4 or so; the one selling point is that it can be applied without restricting your Dex, so to be around the Fighter-level, you need way more Dex, and some other source of Armor-bonus. But you aren't looking at +12 before pre-epic levels; most of the time it'll be far behind the plate.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-02, 06:34 PM
You forgot level 12 fighter, level 12 warrior, level 12 expert, level 12 rogue, level 12 ....etc, etc, you get my point.

Except that only two of those are CR 12. NPC classes aren't of CR, and a well built rogue or fighter is going to kill the monk in a single round.

I mean, I guess you could try to disarm/trip them, but it's not likely to accomplish much. Seeing as they all have a higher modifier by at least +10.

You could maybe trip the rogue, but since he's blinking, or invisible, that's not going to work out well. And of course casters, well lets not get started on that train wreck.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-02, 06:53 PM
AYou forgot level 12 fighter, level 12 warrior, level 12 expert, level 12 rogue, level 12 ....etc, etc, you get my point.

I thought a level-12 encounter was supposed to be a challenge to a level-12 party of four PCs? That would make a single level-X adventurer, what, a level-8 or 9 encounter.

Also, surely you're not suggesting that a warrior could ever be on par with an equally leveled fighter?

only1doug
2009-01-02, 07:01 PM
Except that only two of those are CR 12. NPC classes aren't of CR, and a well built rogue or fighter is going to kill the monk in a single round.

I mean, I guess you could try to disarm/trip them, but it's not likely to accomplish much. Seeing as they all have a higher modifier by at least +10.

You could maybe trip the rogue, but since he's blinking, or invisible, that's not going to work out well. And of course casters, well lets not get started on that train wreck.

Well we could run a comparison to my L12 gish (now L13)

he had +17/12/7 to hit (worse than monks speculated +17/+17/+17/+12) for 3d8+7 damage (better than monks speculated 2d6+8) or against High AC targets a single touch attack at 4d8 sonic damage.

his AC was 32 (slightly better than the monks speculated 20 AC).

he also had access to 4th level wizard spells (at caster level 11) and 2nd level duskblade spells (which i feel compares favorably to monk abilities)

Blood_Lord
2009-01-02, 07:05 PM
I thought a level-12 encounter was supposed to be a challenge to a level-12 party of four PCs? That would make a single level-X adventurer, what, a level-8 or 9 encounter.

Also, surely you're not suggesting that a warrior could ever be on par with an equally leveled fighter?

Common Misconception. It's supposed to consume about 20% of the parties resources. A level 12 character is perfectly suited to that task.

A single ECL 12 character should theoretically go half and half against all CR 12 challenges in the game, including all CR 12 characters.

A four man ECL 12 party should have a 100% success rate against the first encounter of the day if it is CR 12.

This is one reason LA is mathematically inferior to real characters, because themselves + a few HD is supposed to be equal to themselves.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-02, 07:22 PM
A single ECL 12 character should theoretically go half and half against all CR 12 challenges in the game, including all CR 12 characters.
Well, yeah, that's my point. If you're a level-12 character, you can't be expected to fight other level-12 characters on a regular basis and keep winning.

Not that I'm saying CR is all that great a system, mind you. TDC, anyone?

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-02, 07:41 PM
Eh, enhanced Full-Plate on those levels alone gives +13 to AC. Also, the Wis starts at modest +4 or so; the one selling point is that it can be applied without restricting your Dex, so to be around the Fighter-level, you need way more Dex, and some other source of Armor-bonus. But you aren't looking at +12 before pre-epic levels; most of the time it'll be far behind the plate.

My math beets your text.
+5 heavy shield, +5 full plate = +20
Monk AC bonus is +24 by 20th level w/o any help from dexterity

It is just a common misconception that monks need dexterity. Wisdom IS their dexterity. Even in Core, you are better off as a monk dumping dex and going for STR/WIS primary than boosting dex. Of course, in core, there really is no way to avoid needing at least three stats, since wisdom can't be used for to-hit, but you need CON to be in melee.

Now, if you want to have crap damage and HP, you can crack your AC up really high in core by going DEX/WIS, and using weapon finesse. But then you just get ignored, because your damage is chump change compared to the threat of the party beatstick, and the threat of the party casters.


Re: comment on equal level rogue winning against monk: solo, this isn't actually true. You can't flank by yourself, and not only is the monk's AC insight, and thus not lost when flatfooted, but the monk is wisdom based and has spot/listen as class skills. The monk's damage, AC, and HP are all better than the rogue at that point.


Re: level X =/= CR X

You are actually just wrong there, with the exception of NPC classes. A level 10 fighter is CR 10. NPC classes are 1/2 level in CR. Take a look at the orc - cr 1/2, level 1 warrior.

Now take a look at your DMG. An equal CR encounter is supposed to take 1/4 of the (4 person) party resources to beat. One character of equal level is one quarter of the party.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-02, 07:41 PM
Well, yeah, that's my point. If you're a level-12 character, you can't be expected to fight other level-12 characters on a regular basis and keep winning.

Not that I'm saying CR is all that great a system, mind you. TDC, anyone?

You still aren't getting it. If you are a single CR 12 character, you aren't supposed to fight CR 12 challenges at all.

If you are a ECL 12 party then you are a CR 16 encounter. And you face CR 12 challenges.

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-02, 07:44 PM
Including 4 man teams of CR 8 bad guys, btw. Or other variations of that.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-02, 07:50 PM
Re: comment on equal level rogue winning against monk: solo, this isn't actually true. You can't flank by yourself, and not only is the monk's AC insight, and thus not lost when flatfooted, but the monk is wisdom based and has spot/listen as class skills. The monk's damage, AC, and HP are all better than the rogue at that point.

Damage less then Rogue
AC about Equal, but still an easy hit for both.
HP Depends on the Rogue build and Stats, but probably the slightest Edge to the Monk.

But let's address some of the crap:
1) Didn't say he wins, says he kills in a single round. And he does.
2) Why the hell would you want to flank?
3) The Monk has no way of boosting Hide and MS like the Rogue does, plus distance penalties favor the Rogue.


Re: level X =/= CR X

You are actually just wrong there, with the exception of NPC classes. A level 10 fighter is CR 10. NPC classes are 1/2 level in CR. Take a look at the orc - cr 1/2, level 1 warrior.

Now take a look at your DMG. An equal CR encounter is supposed to take 1/4 of the (4 person) party resources to beat. One character of equal level is one quarter of the party.

I have no idea who this is aimed at, or what it's supposed to mean. But you do realize that the NPCs comment is what I was talking about.

I know how CR works, I was telling you that level 12 Expert/Commoner/ect are not CR 12.

I explained what CR is, and said basically the same thing you did. Unless you actually think that a single ECL 12 character has a 100% chance of beating a CR 12 encounter, in which case I point you to CR 12 Fighter vs CR 12 Fighter.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-02, 07:52 PM
Including 4 man teams of CR 8 bad guys, btw. Or other variations of that.

Is this supposed to be for a ECL 12 party or a ECL 12 single character?

You are seriously the least clear person ever about this.

Skjaldbakka
2009-01-02, 09:08 PM
1) Didn't say he wins, says he kills in a single round. And he does.
2) Why the hell would you want to flank?
3) The Monk has no way of boosting Hide and MS like the Rogue does, plus distance penalties favor the Rogue.

Monk's AC is higher, and he doesn't lose the majority of it against the rogue's sneak attack, because insight isn't lost when flatfooted. The rogue's 3/4 BAB has a hard time hitting a monk that is built properly.

Furthermore, the monk has a good chance of not being flatfooted, and even if the rogue hits in the first round with the sneak attack, a rogue's sneak attack dice are not even half the monk's HD. You don't get a full attack in a surprise round.

Monk is still alive and kicking at that level. The rogue has no chance of killing the monk in a single round, and will quite probably not even win a straight up fight against the monk by himself.

Now, if the rogue can flank (and your distaste for that as an option showcases your expertise with rogues), and has two-weapon fighting, the monk is quite thoroughly hosed. Even if the flanker does nothing but keep flanking.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-02, 09:41 PM
Monk's AC is higher, and he doesn't lose the majority of it against the rogue's sneak attack, because insight isn't lost when flatfooted. The rogue's 3/4 BAB has a hard time hitting a monk that is built properly.

The Rogue is as Dex focused or more then the Monk is Wis, the Monk has no Dex as you admit, and the Rogue has Armor to boot. They are pretty similar, but the Monk also must contend with the Rogues 20% miss chance.

Please, what is your Monks AC at level 12? Because my level 12 Core only Rogue has an attack bonus of +22/+22/+22/+22/+17/+17 against flat footed touch AC. Though admittedly, Monks do have the highest flat-footed touch AC, it's probably not high enough to give any chance of surviving that.


Furthermore, the monk has a good chance of not being flatfooted, and even if the rogue hits in the first round with the sneak attack, a rogue's sneak attack dice are not even half the monk's HD. You don't get a full attack in a surprise round.

The Monk has a zero percent chance of not being flat-footed. But no, a rogue's SA aren't equal to a Monks HD, which is why you hit with multiple attacks. And you do get a full attack in the actual first round, and guess who's going to win Init: The Dex focused Rogue or the Dex Dumping Monk?


Monk is still alive and kicking at that level. The rogue has no chance of killing the monk in a single round, and will quite probably not even win a straight up fight against the monk by himself.

He has a guaranteed kill if he gets a single full attack action off on the Monk withing SA range. And that is quite likely.


Now, if the rogue can flank (and your distaste for that as an option showcases your expertise with rogues), and has two-weapon fighting, the monk is quite thoroughly hosed. Even if the flanker does nothing but keep flanking.

The Monk is pretty hosed anyway unless he has Fortification Armor. Which of course is a stupid thing for a Monk to have.

Maybe he could be a Ghoul Monk? That might keep him alive through a full attack.

Kantolin
2009-01-03, 04:45 AM
pretty much need to either convince the GM to let you either enchant your unarmed strikes with energy damage effects, or get a magic item that effectively enchants your unarmed strikes.

I keep seeing this when people mention monks. Is something wrong with the Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists)?

I can understand if the problem is 'cost', but it certainly seems to at least fit the bill that a lot of unarmed units are looking for insofar as 'enchant my fists'

Edit:


At level 20, a monk that has maxxed out his wisdom has 34 wisdom(18base+5level+6item+5wish), which gives a +12 AC bonus, which is +16 with the class-based AC bonus. Combined with the Bracers of Armor +8, you have a 24 AC, which is better than +5 full plate and +5 shield.

Even if you can't get wishes to boost your wisdom, you still have a 21 AC bonus, compared to the 20 you get from full plate and shield.


That's actually making a lot of assumptions. First of all, that's spending an 18 and five level boosts into wisdom, vs the fighter spending no stats into anything to match the defenses. In point buy that's very expensive to your other stats, whereas in rolling it's strictly luck to even have that one 18 to utilize.

Secondly, it snapshots level 20. At level 1, the 18 wisdom monk has essentially a +4 bonus. This can be matched with a chain shirt or scale mail; it can then be beaten if you include a shield, grab chain mail, or have the money for splint mail. Assuming the fighter ends up in a breastplate (or with a heavy shield) for a total of +5 (or +7) to AC, the monk has to wait until level 5 (or 8) before he matches the fighter. The mild upgrade to full plate at +8 takes the monk who's boosting wisdom until 10 before the monk is again equal, or level 15 if the fighter is also using a shield.

Thirdly, the Bracers of armour+8 are 64k. +5 Armour and a +5 shield come in at 50k, giving you a healthy ~12K to do as you like with. It is also considerably cheaper to enchant armour than it is to raise wisdom (1k, 4k, 9k for the armour, to compare to 4k, 16k, 36k), not to mention the wisdom boost halts at 36k (essentially a '+3') while the fighter's armour can be enchanted further (25k for the +5 being still cheaper than the monk's +6 wisdom amulet), thus meaning the AC portion of the fighter's expenses are cheaper than either the bracers or the amulet of wisdom, let alone both. Remaining money can go to weaponry, or further enchants, or doowigglies of additional AC boosting if that's your fancy.

Essentially, the above monk is a monk who's invested heavily into defenses, and is only on par with a fighter who's spent considerably less on defenses.

Now, all that said and done, I also don't think the monk is worthless - a monk can contribute to the party fairly effectively, and a lot of people rather overreact about things. So eh. They have more trouble with both defense and offense than a fighter, though. The goal, at least theoretically, is to make up for it with mobility and other things.

Thrud
2009-01-03, 05:15 AM
Dodge, mobility, spring attack, boots of striding and springing. Don't really need much of anything else coz most critters can never get close enough to you to hit you, whereas you get to make one attack at them each round. As a human you can get to this point by 6th level. At 9th you can pick up falling star strike and use that one attack to paralyze. Of course, that is all 3ed, so by 3.5 stuff may have changed. Get the party Wizard to whip you up a ring that has Expeditious Retreat in it for true hilarity (I run up, smack you once, and can be up to 150 feet away from you by the time you get a chance to react again. Does spring attack still prevent AoO's in 3.5?)

Heh, monks were kinda broken in 3.0 with judicious application of only 2 magic items.

Edit- (BTW, this is a somewhat cheesy combo since expeditious retreat is used in the creation of boots of striding and springing, but the boots list the jumping bonus as a competence bonus and say nothing about the movement bonus, whilst the spell expeditious retreat lists its doubling as counting as an enhancement bonus. So it is a tad cheesy. Still, it is not like you need the second doubling really. At 5th level you have a 100 foor move, and at 9th 120. Those are still enough to move in, smack someone, then get away and hide behind something to prevent a charge attack and be more than a double move away for most humanoids so that the charge attack is the only way to get to you. Still, if the ring DOES work then you have a move of 150 and 180 respectively, which is truly absurd for a base move. (especially since that means that at a sprint you move 720. Which is 120 feet/second. Or somewhere around 80MPH. Of course, when you hit 20th level, that could go up to 270 base move. So sprinting 1080 in a melee round, or 180 ft/sec, or nearly 122 MPH

Man I really have to go to bed. I am getting really goofy.

Hmm, cast haste on him. . . Hey, that gets you nearly half way to the speed of sound. . .

:smallbiggrin:

Double Hmm. . . add in a level of barbarian at the beginning, and a few other tweaks here and there. . . I wonder if you could get a monk supersonic. . .

Kantolin
2009-01-03, 05:57 AM
Awakened Cheetah Monk?

Telonius
2009-01-03, 07:49 AM
My math beets your text.
+5 heavy shield, +5 full plate = +20
Monk AC bonus is +24 by 20th level w/o any help from dexterity

It is just a common misconception that monks need dexterity. Wisdom IS their dexterity. Even in Core, you are better off as a monk dumping dex and going for STR/WIS primary than boosting dex. Of course, in core, there really is no way to avoid needing at least three stats, since wisdom can't be used for to-hit, but you need CON to be in melee.



Interesting...
So, applying that to my Wis-based power attack build (and PA is a prereq for Fist of the Forest)...

Dwarf
Str 14
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 18 (21 with bumps)
Cha 6

1-6 Monk/1-2FoF/7-18 Monk
1 Monk1 - Great Fortitude, Stunning Fist
2 Monk2 - Deflect Arrows
3 Monk3 - Intuitive Attack
4 Monk4, Wis+1
5 Monk5
6 FoF1 - Feral Trance, Uncanny Dodge, Power Attack
7 FoF2 - Untamed Strike
8 FoF3 - Feral Trance 2/day, Scent
9 Monk6 - Improved Disarm, Wis+1
10 Monk7 - Improved Natural Attack
11 Monk8
12 Monk9 - Wis+1, ? feat

At level 10, you'll have maxed out unarmed damage thanks to the two step-ups in Fist of the Forest. Your CON will benefit AC, HPs, and Fort save; WIS will benefit average damage (to-hit), AC, Will save, and Stunning Fist; and your movement will be 60. So WIS is most important, followed by Con, then Str, then Dex, then Int, then Cha. The drawbacks: Fewer skill points, slightly less Will save.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 09:39 AM
Dodge, mobility, spring attack, boots of striding and springing. Don't really need much of anything else coz most critters can never get close enough to you to hit you, whereas you get to make one attack at them each round. As a human you can get to this point by 6th level. At 9th you can pick up falling star strike and use that one attack to paralyze. Of course, that is all 3ed, so by 3.5 stuff may have changed. Get the party Wizard to whip you up a ring that has Expeditious Retreat in it for true hilarity (I run up, smack you once, and can be up to 150 feet away from you by the time you get a chance to react again. Does spring attack still prevent AoO's in 3.5?)

Yeah, 3.5 has no doubling of speeds, and everything, expeditious and boots is marked as enhancement, so Monks can't even get a bonus to speed from items.

Secondly, thank you for presenting tank syndrome.

You may think your monk doing 2d8+12 damage once a round at level 12 is special. He's not. After the enemy that you aren't even contributing to beat kills off everyone else in the party because it was designed to be fought by four competent adventurers, not 3 and a hireling, then you will be in trouble.

Also, there are these things called archers/spellcasters, both of which can hit you when you are 150ft away. Not to mention readied actions.

ericgrau
2009-01-03, 02:29 PM
Reply to monk build


AC: Try checking the list of magic items to add up the AC. It's even broken down item by item and added up for you. I'm responding to the first point as an example, I don't wanna waste an hour beyond that. So...

Everything Else After That: Likewise screwed up.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

Anyone interested in verification can check out the SRD at www.d20srd.org. There's a handy search tool. And most other things are broken down in my build, or else it's easy to find details in the SRD.

Sir Giacomo
2009-01-03, 02:36 PM
]...(plenty of good advice on monks, also outside core)...[/I]hopefully there is some insight there. see guys, not everyone says get a ToB, you newb*!

*however, if ToB is allowed, monk is completely outclassed.

Quick comment here:

1- this thread is about to be de-railed into an argument about whether or not monks are balanced.

2- Giacomo's guide relies on a number of contested rules calls, which you want to check and see if your GM agrees with Giacomo on how those things are ruled before you try to use his build.

3- A lot of the issues with the giacomonk can be negated by taking a few levels of sorcerer and the Ascetic Mage feat (not 100% on the name of the feat, but it pretty much uses CHA instead of wisdom for your monk stuff).

Some comments of mine:

1- I guess there is not going to be a problem in this thread. Good ideas have been pointed out to the OP and that's what counts, despite the usual row of (uncalled for) monk-class-ridiculing. The most common misperceptions of monk-doubters have been dealt with in 70 pages of discussion thread following my guide (see my sig). I think that's enough for now.:smallsmile:


2- To provide an extremely short recap: the major points of RAW discussion following my guide where
a) Can partially charged wands be bought by player characters or only by npcs in an ongoing campaign?
b) Can a grapple be flurried (basically it boiled down to whether to accept a "modified base attack bonus" of the monk's flurry rules is OK for the "No. of grapple attempts is based on the base attack bonus".

Kurald Galain already put it nicely way up (although from his typical, vastly different point of view): when a DM allows X class/feat/rule/item/spell/trick from Y companion/dragon magazine, there is a good chance that both a) and b) will be allowed by DMs.

But even without any wands, the joker monk guide provides plenty of ideas how to synergise the most common, low-mid level buffs with the monk's abilities already in core.
Often you may play with DMs not liking the idea of magic items or spells being "bought" in their campaign and thus houserule it differently, but in that case just point out to them that
a) when magic cannot be bought, casters get some sort of monopoly on magic and thus becomes more powerful (= imbalance) and
b) when magic cannot be bought, even casters will be unable to buy stuff for the spell components and material for item creation. Allowing this, though, and not the other would create even more imbalance.
In either case, it is not that advisable to play a non-caster in such houseruled campaigns, in case a player wants to have a character of equal power technically (though fluff of course could still make it worthwhile!)


3 - a good idea, albeit non-core (some DMs may not allow it). Multiclassing, though, already also works in core to avoid other problems for monk buffs- but at the price of slower unarmed strike damage progression and getting monk abilities at a later point.


Now...

...one issue I'd like to pick up here.

It is the imo odd advice, quite widespread by now, that if you think a monk is weak, simply "play a swordsage". (funnily, it was the first comment, by Nebo, done in response to my guide, and speaks volumes about how much that poster knew about the monk and swordsage classes).

This is a useless recommendation, due to several problems.
1) As Skjaldbakka pointed out, ToB are optional rules. DMs may not allow it at all since it introduces a completely different combat concept into the 3.5 rules. The rules are made to co-exist, but, say, a paladin and crusader in the same group may cause problems in that they need different styles of encounters, challenges and DMing. (the ToB can be considerd a precursor/pionieer for the 4e rules in a way).
2) Then, the "monklike swordsage" so-called "rule" is a strange animal, in that even within optional rules, they are optional. (ToB, p. 10, "Adaptation").
3) If this would not make them already suspicious enough for any DM, they are not even an optional rule, but have more the character of a SUGGESTION of how the DM could DESIGN HIMSELF an unarmed fighting character ESPECIALLY for the ToB setting.
The problem is that the DM (and the player) is left with only this short sentence FOR A WHOLE CLASS DESCRIPTION:
"To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

Now, taking such a sentence literally as some monk doubters would like to and present as solid fact, leads to renewed problems_
4) What is "unarmed strike progression", anyhow? So far on the boards (not in rules FAQ, nor anywhere) I guess it simply means unarmed strike DAMAGE progression, not the flurry of blows, and not the improved unarmed strike feat, nor the special ki powers, neither the equality of unarmed strikes and natural attack that the monk has for spell buffs and effects.
Suggesting otherwise would also strain balancing quite a bit, since a mere feat would be exchanged for a flurry (so to speak) of monk class abilities.

5) However, even with the unarmed strike damage progression of a monk, the swordsage is somewhat lacking to hope to even replace the monk as an unarmed fighting master.
a) First of all, the swordsage immediately is feat-starved. He'll have to get the improved unarmed strike feat (or receive AoO against most opponents any time he strikes, quite stupid) and also the light armour proficiency feat (or he will not get the WIS bonus to AC from level 2). This means you HAVE to play a human swordsage.
b) Then, the big advantage of a monk's unarmed damage is that it scales exponentially with size boosts. Unfortunately for the swordsage, he cannot make use of the improved natural attack feat since his unarmed strikes are not considerd natural attacks.
c) The swordsage also runs more into MAD issues, because he does not get improved grapple, combat reflexes or improved trip as bonus feats without prerequisites. He'lle need the DEX 15 (when enlarged for higher unarmed damage) and INT 13 for that. The monk not.
d) A first plus (at last) of the swordsage are 2 more skill points per level, but somhow the key Spot skill did not make it. Likewise, knowledge arcane, perform and diplomacy are missing. Some monk fans may miss that.
e) Another plus is the swordsage's higher initiative modifier and his weapon focus. But not enough imo to make up for the feat advantages of the monk before.

Now the big final question is - are all the maneuvers (12 readied at most!) enough for the swordsage to equalise the (often 24/7) monk's special abilities and flurry? It really depends. The swordsage recovers those maneuvers only in between encounters, so when the encounter drags out and he was able to only two rounds do some high number of attacks, whereas the monk can do that all the time with his flurry, then the monk is clearly ahead.
And nothing prevents the monk from also taking some martial study feats to get up to 5th level manifester powers (when he takes the 18th level feat, for instance).
A very big problem for the swordsage is that he starts with quite low damage output, whereas - as I showed in my guide - the monk can get the improved grapple feat for free and thus has a powerful melee ability that definitely is not MAD for up to mid levels.



So overall, I'd add to the monk myths of my guide the "play a swordsage myth":smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 03:39 PM
First, Giacomo, learn TOB, the number of incorrect statements in your post is silly, but in case it matters, a regular swordsage with weapons is still more Monk like (and better) then a Monk.


AC: Try checking the list of magic items to add up the AC. It's even broken down item by item and added up for you. I'm responding to the first point as an example, I don't wanna waste an hour beyond that. So...

Everything Else After That: Likewise screwed up.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

Anyone interested in verification can check out the SRD at www.d20srd.org. There's a handy search tool. And most other things are broken down in my build, or else it's easy to find details in the SRD.

Or, you could present an actual stat block instead of a random collection of numbers that make no sense and don't add up to anything coherent.

What does AC: +10 overall, +6 Flat footed, +8 Touch mean?

It could mean you have an AC of 20, or it could mean you have an AC of 34. Of course, in neither circumstance do you have a Touch AC of 21 like you claimed.

You seriously make no sense.

How am I supposed to figure out your AC or AB when you won't give a single stat? Am I supposed to read your mind to determine what your Str/Dex/Wis are? How about you give actual numbers before you get mad about them being wrong.

Sir Giacomo
2009-01-03, 06:46 PM
Blood_Lord - I imagine it is hard for you.
But please elaborate on your opinion or do not post like this.

For instance, post a swordsage of any level 1-12* who is "more monk-like" and "better" than a monk (whatever you think that means). As for the fluff part, do not forget that quite a few exotic weapon proficiencies may be needed that the monk has for free.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

*EDIT1-12 since the OP said level 12 when asking for advice (my original idea before editing: lvl 1-10). And I think most viewers of this thread are more interested in the lower levels for their character building, than for the high levels. But if your case rests on higher level play (lvl 13-20), by all means post a character of that level able to outshine a monk.

Vexxation
2009-01-03, 07:14 PM
For instance, post a swordsage of any level 1-12* who is "more monk-like" and "better" than a monk (whatever you think that means). As for the fluff part, do not forget that quite a few exotic weapon proficiencies may be needed that the monk has for free.:smallwink:

In order to be clear, please explain what you mean by monk-like. Ascetic life is a character's life choice. I assume you mean "guy who runs around doing martial arts while unarmored"?

In that case, take an Unarmed Swordsage with the usual houserules (Wis to AC while unarmored, full Unarmed Strike package) and you're pretty much done.

However, I know how Giacomo detests houserules when they don't work in his favor, so if I feel like it, perhaps later I'll make a pure, unadjusted Swordsage of, oh, Level 2 or so, to satisfy. Plain and simple, the monk doesn't cut it.

Sir Giacomo
2009-01-03, 07:26 PM
In order to be clear, please explain what you mean by monk-like. Ascetic life is a character's life choice. I assume you mean "guy who runs around doing martial arts while unarmored"?

I'll leave that definition to Blood_Lord who brought up this claim in the first place.


In that case, take an Unarmed Swordsage with the usual houserules (Wis to AC while unarmored, full Unarmed Strike package) and you're pretty much done.

However, I know how Giacomo detests houserules when they don't work in his favor, so if I feel like it, perhaps later I'll make a pure, unadjusted Swordsage of, oh, Level 2 or so, to satisfy. Plain and simple, the monk doesn't cut it.

Unfortunately for your argument, I detest houserules in general when discussing what is RAW and RAI by the existing ruleset, in particular for balance discussions (aka "monks suck because in my campaign all wizards get what ever they need to for their spellcasting, plus scrolls, plus magic item components, but a monk will never be able to buy a wand of enlarge"). I do like all kinds of houserules for fluff, but I never shut my eyes to the technical consequences for balance this may have.

Well...let me see. A Wizard who would also get access to clerical spells, say, level 1-5, with accompanying spell slots. Would that wizard be better than the usual wizard? Sure.

You see, as written in the ToB, there is hardly any basis for a monk replacement by the swordsage. You'll have to houserule for that -as you suggested above- , greatly limiting the overall recommendation potential.
You can load the swordsage with plenty of monk abilities on top of what the swordsage already offers to make a "better monk". But all you've done is create a houseruled new class, possibly quickly overpowered, and which can never be the subject of any rules recommendation (except for the houserule threads).

- Giacomo

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 08:13 PM
Blood_Lord - I imagine it is hard for you.
But please elaborate on your opinion or do not post like this.

For instance, post a swordsage of any level 1-12* who is "more monk-like" and "better" than a monk (whatever you think that means). As for the fluff part, do not forget that quite a few exotic weapon proficiencies may be needed that the monk has for free.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

*EDIT1-12 since the OP said level 12 when asking for advice (my original idea before editing: lvl 1-10). And I think most viewers of this thread are more interested in the lower levels for their character building, than for the high levels. But if your case rests on higher level play (lvl 13-20), by all means post a character of that level able to outshine a monk.

Why would anyone need Weapon proficiencies to be a Monk? Shuriken? Ninja, only part of Monk because there was no Ninja class in Core, Kama? Never heard of a Monk using those. Nun-Chuka, maybe some monks, but certainly not an important part of being a Monk.

Your definition of monk like is: "exactly like the Monk class in the PHB. Lots of Items, no class features, Final Destination." But that's not what a Monk is.

A Monk is a mystical warrior who fights by tapping into his own natural inner strength. Not, "A guy with these proficiency, no armor, uses fists, all good saves, and moves fast."

So yes, a Swordsage is more monk-like, because he has actual manifestations of his inner strength that make him look like something besides a Boxer.

For example, a level 7 Swordsage can do the following Monk like things:

Jump from the Air to attack more strongly.
Scare off foes by defeating their leader.
Strike an opponent in a pressure point to paralyze him temporarily.
Obscure an opponents vision with blood from a cut above the eyes.
Grab a foe and throw him into the nearest wall.
Run up walls and fight from them, or find cracks in the ceiling and do the same.
Trick an opponent into thinking he is off guard, only to dodge and use the opening to strike.
Adapt to an opponent style, getting better at avoiding his attacks over time.
Slip into the Shadows and appear somewhere unexpected.
Fight from a compromised position, with poor footing, but use it to his advantage.
Prepare for an opponents charge, and then use his momentum to cause more damage, while slipping away from his attack.

I have seen Jackie Chan do every one of those. I've seen plenty of other thematic extensions of Monks do the same. Those are Monk like actions, not hitting someone really hard in the face.

Don't confuse Rocky+Ninja Stars with a Monk.

Vexxation
2009-01-03, 10:07 PM
You see, as written in the ToB, there is hardly any basis for a monk replacement by the swordsage.

Except right in the Adaptation section. I quote, "However, a Swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school or origin. To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes,..." Emphasis mine. Then it tells you what to do to create said character.


You'll have to houserule for that -as you suggested above- , greatly limiting the overall recommendation potential.
I only called it a houserule because the Adaptation section forgets to mention adjusting the Wisdom to AC to work unarmored. However, it does suggest giving them Unarmed Strike progression. So yes, I admit it, one houserule to patch an obvious oversight. Oh, gods, no...

You can load the swordsage with plenty of monk abilities on top of what the swordsage already offers to make a "better monk".
You could, I guess. But that's not what I suggest. In fact, an Unarmed Swordsage does a one-for-one class feature swap: Loss of Light Armor, gain of Unarmed Progression. Actually, to be honest, I'd be okay with a swap for only Improved Unarmed Strike. I could take the standard d3 (I think) for unarmed damage and deal with it. Still be better than a monk. Haha.

But all you've done is create a houseruled new class, possibly quickly overpowered, and which can never be the subject of any rules recommendation (except for the houserule threads).
Trust me, compared to a regular Swordsage, it's not overpowered.
Now an Arcane Swordsage, that's.... ghastly.

Telonius
2009-01-04, 05:55 AM
I'm probably fighting a losing battle here, but ...


Quite simply what are some ways I can lower the dependency on multiple skills for a 12th level monk. Feats, skills and items welcome, with the completes series allowed, and many other books on a case-basis.

He doesn't want an Unarmed Swordsage. He doesn't want a Monk re-write. He doesn't want a way for Monks to be less MAD than a fighter (though it would be nice if it could). He doesn't want something that can out-damage a barbarian (though it would be nice if it could, and you win an internet if you can figure out how). He wants methods to make the Monk less MAD than it currently is, using mainly Core plus Completes.

We've gotten several actual suggestions so far. #1, Carmendine Monk/Kung Fu Genius. #2, the Giacomonk. #3, Intuitive Attack/Power Attack, focus on Wis, dump Int and Cha, medium Dex and Con. #4, Intuitive Attack/Power Attack/Fist of the Forest, focus on Wis then Con, dump Int, Dex, and Cha.

Is there any way to get a usable Monk down from needing great Wis, good Con, and a 14 in Str, to something that relies on two abilities or fewer? Or does not involve Intuitive Attack (which would have to be approved since it's outside of Core+Complete)?

Sir Giacomo
2009-01-05, 05:32 PM
Blood_Lord, as I expected, you scored some own goals...


Why would anyone need Weapon proficiencies to be a Monk? Shuriken? Ninja, only part of Monk because there was no Ninja class in Core, Kama? Never heard of a Monk using those. Nun-Chuka, maybe some monks, but certainly not an important part of being a Monk.

Whereas an unarmed fighting swordsage also having martial weapons like a lance would be more appropriate to fill a monk role? Sure.

Your definition of monk like is: "exactly like the Monk class in the PHB. Lots of Items, no class features, Final Destination." But that's not what a Monk is.

I did not ask for your idea of what I think a monk class should be fluffwise, but what your idea is. Thanks for trying to portray what I think and being completely wrong about it.

A Monk is a mystical warrior who fights by tapping into his own natural inner strength. Not, "A guy with these proficiency, no armor, uses fists, all good saves, and moves fast."

OK, so this is your impression. So, without evidence, you simply object the whole fluff part of the monk PHB class description. And you explain the reasons for how the monk is able to do a dimension door as a supernatural ability exactly how?

So yes, a Swordsage is more monk-like, because he has actual manifestations of his inner strength that make him look like something besides a Boxer.

Because every boxer you know of is immune to disease, poison, can speak all languages, can heal immediately, pass through walls, have immense willpower and can run at the speed of a horse.

For example, a level 7 Swordsage can do the following Monk like things:

I wish you would have provided the maneuvers you think said swordsage is able to apply. And also how said swordsage will be able to do everything of this throughout the whole encounter.
But I'm glad to point out the monk class abilities to do exactly what you wrote fluffwise.

Jump from the Air to attack more strongly.
Monk ability to jump very high into the air (more than a swordsage can, due to the higher movement), and gain +1 due to higher ground attack.

Scare off foes by defeating their leader.
A monk is made to incapacitate an opponent in a one-on-one combat (e.g. grappling, where the swordsage is much worse).

Strike an opponent in a pressure point to paralyze him temporarily.
Stunning fist and quivering palm. Plus poison due to immunity. Next.

Obscure an opponents vision with blood from a cut above the eyes.
With the blind-fight feat (which the monk can afford more easily since he is not as feat-starved as the swordsage), he has plenty of ways to create an environment of total concealment.

Grab a foe and throw him into the nearest wall.
The monk would simply grapple and move the foe into the nearest wall. Of coures, he could also take the bull rush feat with a high STR-build and enlarge.

Run up walls and fight from them, or find cracks in the ceiling and do the same.
Since the monk' movement bonus is added to all modes of movement, climbing is in as well. Including enchantements like the long-lasting spider climb. Better yet, the monk adds his movement bonus in true wuxia style to any flying (or etheralness movement).

Trick an opponent into thinking he is off guard, only to dodge and use the opening to strike.
Diplomacy can do that (monk class skill, unfortunately not a swordsage class skill). Usable from level 1.

Adapt to an opponent style, getting better at avoiding his attacks over time.
Slip into the Shadows and appear somewhere unexpected.
Rising in level does that easily enough. Plus, of course, the class skill of hide and move silently (whereas the swordsage due to lack of spot skill has trouble locating the enemy doing the same).

Fight from a compromised position, with poor footing, but use it to his advantage.
Tumble at high levels can be used to stand up as a free action (DC 35).

Prepare for an opponents charge, and then use his momentum to cause more damage, while slipping away from his attack.
A monk with a spiked chain and combat reflexes can do nasty things to an opponent charging him, even when flat-footed.


I have seen Jackie Chan do every one of those. I've seen plenty of other thematic extensions of Monks do the same. Those are Monk like actions, not hitting someone really hard in the face.

Don't confuse Rocky+Ninja Stars with a Monk.

Well, just two remarks
1) I never saw Jackie Chan do those moves once and never employing them again in that combat encounter (which is what the nova swordsages do) and
2) Don't confuse Jackie Chan with monks. Monks, for instance, also have religion as a class skill, highlighting what they are about. They are not just kung fu fighters, there is also a spiritual side to them.

Summing up:
Swordsage is a fun class to play. But it has different strengths and weaknesses than does a monk. My opinion is: let people who want to play monks play it and do not provide them with wrong advice.

- Giacomo

EDIT/PS: a multiclass monk/swordsage may be able to reconcile our positions, maybe....:smallsmile:

Person_Man
2009-01-05, 06:04 PM
Fist of the Forest 1 gives you Con to AC
Deepwarden (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) 2 gives you Con to AC (replacing Dex)
Shiba Protector 1 (Oriental Adventures) Wis to Hit and Damage
Serenity feat (Dragon Mag) Paladin Class abilities on Wis instead of Cha

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 18+, Int 10, Wis 18+, Cha Dump

Put these together to your liking with some Stunning Fist and debuff feats, and you should be fine.

monty
2009-01-05, 06:43 PM
Jump from the Air to attack more strongly.
Monk ability to jump very high into the air (more than a swordsage can, due to the higher movement), and gain +1 due to higher ground attack.

What? The Tiger Claw maneuvers are far more useful than that +1 a monk might get, and since the monk's movement is an enhancement bonus, the swordsage can match it easily up to 12th level, by which point it doesn't really matter anyway.


Scare off foes by defeating their leader.
A monk is made to incapacitate an opponent in a one-on-one combat (e.g. grappling, where the swordsage is much worse).

Since when is grappling the only effective method of single combat? And since most offensive maneuvers are single melee attacks, I'd say that's designed for one-on-one too.


Strike an opponent in a pressure point to paralyze him temporarily.
Stunning fist and quivering palm. Plus poison due to immunity. Next.

Stunning Fist means you're either not getting Improved Grapple or wasting another feat, and swordsage can do just as well with status-dealing maneuvers. Quivering Palm...high level and 1/week. Enough said. Poison, I'll give you, but Fortitude is statistically the highest save and lots of things are immune to it, so that's highly situational.


Obscure an opponents vision with blood from a cut above the eyes.
With the blind-fight feat (which the monk can afford more easily since he is not as feat-starved as the swordsage), he has plenty of ways to create an environment of total concealment.

Really now?


Grab a foe and throw him into the nearest wall.
The monk would simply grapple and move the foe into the nearest wall. Of coures, he could also take the bull rush feat with a high STR-build and enlarge.

And how does moving someone into a wall while grappling them accomplish anything? If nothing else, you're making them impossible to flank. Good job. Bull-rushing, maybe, but then you'll either be even more MAD or not much good at anything else. Besides, the swordsage can do exactly the same thing.


Run up walls and fight from them, or find cracks in the ceiling and do the same.
Since the monk' movement bonus is added to all modes of movement, climbing is in as well. Including enchantements like the long-lasting spider climb. Better yet, the monk adds his movement bonus in true wuxia style to any flying (or etheralness movement).

Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm). Again, by the time the monk's speed is better, it doesn't really matter.


Trick an opponent into thinking he is off guard, only to dodge and use the opening to strike.
Diplomacy can do that (monk class skill, unfortunately not a swordsage class skill). Usable from level 1.

I believe you're thinking of Bluff, which is not a class skill for monks. Oh, and now you need good Charisma, too. What point buy do you use?


Adapt to an opponent style, getting better at avoiding his attacks over time.
Slip into the Shadows and appear somewhere unexpected.
Rising in level does that easily enough. Plus, of course, the class skill of hide and move silently (whereas the swordsage due to lack of spot skill has trouble locating the enemy doing the same).

Level + maneuvers > level. Swordsage wins on that first point. For lack of Spot...take a look at the "Hearing the Air" stance.


Fight from a compromised position, with poor footing, but use it to his advantage.
Tumble at high levels can be used to stand up as a free action (DC 35).

So...how does that make the monk better, especially since the swordsage has more skill points to spare? Also, at high levels, the swordsage has maneuvers far more powerful than what the monk can do.


Prepare for an opponents charge, and then use his momentum to cause more damage, while slipping away from his attack.
A monk with a spiked chain and combat reflexes can do nasty things to an opponent charging him, even when flat-footed.

So now you're spending two more feats. Not feat-starved, you said? How is that better than any other melee character, anyway?

Blood_Lord
2009-01-05, 08:08 PM
Whereas an unarmed fighting swordsage also having martial weapons like a lance would be more appropriate to fill a monk role? Sure.

It doesn't matter what weapons you have profieciency with, it matters what weapons you use.


OK, so this is your impression. So, without evidence, you simply object the whole fluff part of the monk PHB class description. And you explain the reasons for how the monk is able to do a dimension door as a supernatural ability exactly how?

I think the ability to DD once a day at level 16 doesn't compare to the ability to teleport every round as a swift action from level 13, or to teleport as a move action at level 9.


Because every boxer you know of is immune to disease, poison, can speak all languages, can heal immediately, pass through walls, have immense willpower and can run at the speed of a horse.

Because A monk can't do most of those things until level 10 or higher, and every level 10 human I know can do many of those things. Nor are any of those particularly Monk like. Especially since "immense willpower" is just a made up non-ability that any class can do just as well or better.


And also how said swordsage will be able to do everything of this throughout the whole encounter.

I would imagine he would do them by pulling them out when appropriate, and finishing the encounter before he runs out (if he's competent) or by refreshing them (if not).


But I'm glad to point out the monk class abilities to do exactly what you wrote fluffwise.

And I'll be glad to point out how you stretch so hard to make things fit, even though they don't, most especially relying on magic items and other sources besides the "Monks" own inner power and dedication, whereas I just posted descriptions of maneuvers.



Jump from the Air to attack more strongly.
Monk ability to jump very high into the air (more than a swordsage can, due to the higher movement), and gain +1 due to higher ground attack.

+1 attack is not hitting harder, nor does being able to jump 100ft over someones head give you any different a higher ground bonus then jumping 5ft over there head, something anyone who cares to can do.


Scare off foes by defeating their leader.
A monk is made to incapacitate an opponent in a one-on-one combat (e.g. grappling, where the swordsage is much worse).

Which in no ways scares anyone, because everyone else can gang up on the monk with no dex bonus.

However, the Swordsage can cause an actual fear effect in people nearby when he finishes a foe off, causing them to as per the game rules, run away from his badass scary self.


Strike an opponent in a pressure point to paralyze him temporarily.
Stunning fist and quivering palm. Plus poison due to immunity. Next.

Stunning fist is punching people, not touching a pressure point. Quiver palm is both complete crap and 1/week. Poison is quite obviously using outer abilities not your own inner power. But yes, Monks as per the PHB almost equal Swordsages in this one specific Monklike area.


Obscure an opponents vision with blood from a cut above the eyes.
With the blind-fight feat (which the monk can afford more easily since he is not as feat-starved as the swordsage), he has plenty of ways to create an environment of total concealment.

You mean using outside sources, like some else's spells, a magical item made by someone else, or otherwise not your own inner power? Swordsages on the other hand, don't even need to take blind-fight, because instead of using a magic item to emit an area of concealment, they can cut their opponents so that the blood obstructs only their opponents vision.


Grab a foe and throw him into the nearest wall.
The monk would simply grapple and move the foe into the nearest wall. Of coures, he could also take the bull rush feat with a high STR-build and enlarge.

So you would pick someone up, put them in a lock, then carry them or roll on the ground with them until you push them into a wall.

A swordsage on the other hand, can in a single standard action, grab someone, pick them up, throw them several feat away from them and not follow them. IE actually throw someone instead of push.

Hey, how crazy is that.


Run up walls and fight from them, or find cracks in the ceiling and do the same.
Since the monk' movement bonus is added to all modes of movement, climbing is in as well. Including enchantements like the long-lasting spider climb. Better yet, the monk adds his movement bonus in true wuxia style to any flying (or etheralness movement).

Except, no one cares that you can run circles on the ceiling after you get someone else to use magic on you. The sword sage can spider climb whenever he wants, using his own inner power and zen state. You might recognize a theme here, how the Swordsage relies on himself to do Monk things, and the Monk relies on magic items and other classes to do things that he should be able to do on his own.


Trick an opponent into thinking he is off guard, only to dodge and use the opening to strike.
Diplomacy can do that (monk class skill, unfortunately not a swordsage class skill). Usable from level 1.

1) Diplomacy can't do that.
2) The feint action does not represent allowing an opponent to think you are off guard. It represents a feint, or false attack somewhere else to get them to move incorrectly. Not turning your back only to spin around at the last second.
3) The Swordsage, in addition to feinting better then the Monk (IE with an actual chance of success) can also use a counter to strike an opponent who strikes at him, while dodging the opponents attack. That's called actually useful, unlike feinting.


Adapt to an opponent style, getting better at avoiding his attacks over time.
Slip into the Shadows and appear somewhere unexpected.
Rising in level does that easily enough. Plus, of course, the class skill of hide and move silently (whereas the swordsage due to lack of spot skill has trouble locating the enemy doing the same).

Rising in level doesn't represent learning an opponents style unless you do it mid combat. Since after that, they are dead and you are facing someone else. Slipping into shadows is not represented well by Hide and MS, it's being somwhere you shouldn't be able to be, IE teleporting.

But if it where hiding, then the Swordsage with more skill points is better at it, because Hiding requires concealment, which you consistently ignore because your Monks can't actually get it themselves, but a Swordsage can create his own concealment with his inner power, and slip into shadows right in front of his opponent, without calling on the aid of a magic item.


Fight from a compromised position, with poor footing, but use it to his advantage.
Tumble at high levels can be used to stand up as a free action (DC 35).

And how does the ability to stand up quickly in any way represent fighting on shards of glass or standing on the edge of a board? Oh right, it doesn't. But a Swordsage can ignore the penalties of rough terrain and instead gain combat bonuses, to represent dodging behind rubble, ect.


Prepare for an opponents charge, and then use his momentum to cause more damage, while slipping away from his attack.
A monk with a spiked chain and combat reflexes can do nasty things to an opponent charging him, even when flat-footed.

Yes, you can take a single AoO just like anyone else, assuming your opponents doesn't have reach. Of course, a Swordsage can counter charge anyone, including people with reach, large creatures, and even people not charging him.


Well, just two remarks
1) I never saw Jackie Chan do those moves once and never employing them again in that combat encounter (which is what the nova swordsages do) and
2) Don't confuse Jackie Chan with monks. Monks, for instance, also have religion as a class skill, highlighting what they are about. They are not just kung fu fighters, there is also a spiritual side to them.

1) And luckily, Swordsages don't do that either.
2a) You mean a spiritual side represented by using your own inner power to accomplish supernatural acts? Or the spiritual side represented by activating a magical item.
2b) You've watched too many Rush Hours and not enough Legend of the Drunken Masters. Jackie Chan has many Monk movies.


EDIT/PS: a multiclass monk/swordsage may be able to reconcile our positions, maybe....:smallsmile:

Only if you could explain something the Monk levels would grant that the Swordsage levels wouldn't. But since the only purpose of such a character is to get access to all the cool things swordsages can do that Monks can't, while still pretending the Monk class is good at being a Monk, that doesn't matter.

Tokiko Mima
2009-01-06, 05:57 AM
5) However, even with the unarmed strike damage progression of a monk, the swordsage is somewhat lacking to hope to even replace the monk as an unarmed fighting master.
a) First of all, the swordsage immediately is feat-starved. He'll have to get the improved unarmed strike feat (or receive AoO against most opponents any time he strikes, quite stupid) and also the light armour proficiency feat (or he will not get the WIS bonus to AC from level 2). This means you HAVE to play a human swordsage.


This is funny. Firstly, the Swordsage gains the same Unarmed Strike feature Monks do (It's part of the progression, like spellbook rules are part of the wizard spellcasting progression) and that feature obviously includes the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as stated. Oh and since that feature also covers unarmed attacks without hands and treating monks hands as natural weapons for the purposes of buffs, the UA Swordsage gets those as well.

Light armor proficiency (provided the DM doesn't immediately rule that UA Swordsages gain WIS to AC in no armor) is so unnecessary it's hilarious. There's no penalty for wearing armor with an ACP of 0, or rather, there is but the penalty itself is zero. Most light armor is either 0 ACP or can be nudged that way with masterwork or mithril (for chain shirts.) Not that it matters in this discussion, but you can even get fullplate to be wearable without penalty or proficiency if you wanted to. In any case, it's usually a bonus to a Swordsage to be able to wear light armor with a WIS bonus, because it leads to a higher AC overall than a similar monk and much easier access to magic armor properties.

On the other hand, I think you're forgetting that per RAW, a monk will have to take Weapon Proficiency (Unarmed Strike) because it's not on his list of proficient weapons, unless he/she wants a -4 penalty to attack bonus when they strike unarmed. So the situation at level 1 is actually quite reversed: The Monk must burn their first level feat to fix a clerical error in their class description, while the Swordsage has a free selection because they lose a feat they don't need to replace. Admittedly a lot of Swordsages grab Adaptive Style as their first feat but that's a choice they get to make, while the monk is forced to pick a feat they absolutely need and pick from a list of two different options.

Anyway, I know I won't be changing anyone's minds here on the value of Monks versus Swordsages, but I felt compelled to correct anyone that actually thought Swordsages needed any feats out of the box or 'had' to be human.

Ethrael
2009-01-06, 07:33 AM
Quite simply what are some ways I can lower the dependency on multiple skills for a 12th level monk. Feats, skills and items welcome, with the completes series allowed, and many other books on a case-basis.

I know Tattooed Monk* has a few special abilities (Tattooes) which can help you individually. Plus, you can continue advancing as a Monk and levels stack for Unarmed Attack Bonus, Speed Advancement and AC bonus.

*Complete Warrior

Fixer
2009-01-06, 08:24 AM
Has anyone considered writing a Fighter substitution level at level 1?

Instead of gaining a bonus feat, proficiency in any armor or shield, and proficiency in all martial and simple weapons, the fighter gains AC bonus and move bonuses as a monk of equal level, unarmed damage and flurry as a monk of equal level, weapon proficiencies as a monk, and Wis bonus to AC as a monk.

Thus, you have a combat monk without all those other powers. Skill points and skill selections suck comparatively, but if you REALLY want to play a combat monk, skills are not what you are paying attention to anyway.