PDA

View Full Version : An oft-abused class



ShifterOne
2009-01-02, 01:46 AM
Okay, so, this is my first post on this forum, and it's mainly to get some feedback on a homebrew varient I made (with some help from a few DMs I know). In case you couldn't tell from my username (:smallwink:), I like the Shifter class. Problem is, that so far every time someone's tried their hand at it, it either was made so you could break it by sneezing too hard, or you could get better shapeshifting from another class that DIDN'T specialize. So, here's my try at it, to try and make it right.

I couldn't decide whether to make it a prestige class or a base class, but since it's so far removed from a lot of the other classes (except maybe druid, but still), and because I just felt like it, the version here is for a base class. Feel free to change it if you want to. (It's also for version 3.5, I don't quite like 4E)

Also, It's probably not the best, but feel free to give me some constructive criticism. I probably could change the flavor text a bit, but this Shifter version is basically a Wilderness kind of Monk, gaining their abilities through great training and focus of their bodies and minds (though that training is directed to the mastery of the body instead of the mind, so they remain a bit of a wild and carefree bunch).

Anyway. Here's the class.

SHIFTER

"The only thing constant is change."

The shifter has no form that she calls her own. Instead, she clothes herself in whatever shape is most expedient at the time. While others base their identities largely on their external forms, the shifter actually comes closer to her true self through all her transformations. Of necessity, her sense of self is based not on her outward form, but on her soul, which is truly the only constant about her. It is the inner strength of that soul that enables her to take on any shape and remain herself within. Where a monk trains his body to master his mind, a shifter trains her mind to master her body.

Shifters are generally a wild and carefree lot, and the oldest and most powerful prefer to spend their time exploring the multiverse and reveling in new forms and shapes they discover along the way. Indeed, some of the most ancient and powerful shifters are rarely encountered in their true form and many claim (with some pride) to have forgotten their true form entirely.

Because of the fact that you can't normally tell one shifter from another, and that many evil shifters can and do get away with pretty much anything, most people are VERY suspicious of shifters, and showing that you are one generally is not a good way to make friends with most people in towns and cities (except children, of course, who just think that they're cool, usually). It is not unusual for a Shifter to be run out of town, killed on the spot , or at least made very unwelcome if suspicious citizens find out their true nature((hint to DMs with munchkin players)). When visiting civilization, they rarely use their Shift ability because of this.

((If you wish for this to be a prestige class instead, just add the requirements: BAB: (whatever you feel is appropriate for the level they should get this class), Feats: Endurance, Special: must have changed forms at least once before, whether due to lycanthropy, magic, or otherwise, and have received training from at least one other Shifter in the art and discipline of Shifting.))

HD:d8
Skill points per level: 4+Int mod.
Starting GP: (2d4)x10
Proficiency: simple weapons, and medium and light armor. A Shifter is not proficient in shields.
Starting Age: complex
Alignment: Couldn't decide. They're both strict and wild at the same time. Probably no alignment restrictions, but that is wide open to change as you see fit.

Class Skills: Bluff(Cha), Climb(Str), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Disguise(Cha), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Hide(Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge(Nature)(Int), Listen(Wis), Move Silently(Dex), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str), Survival(Wis), Tumble(Dex)


Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Subtype/Vulnerability, Familiarity, Shift(1 size, humanoid & monstrous humanoid)
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Change Self
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Shift(natural objects, plants, & nonhumanoids)
4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Shift(all sizes)
5th +3 +1 +1 +4
6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Talk in any form
7th +5 +2 +2 +5
8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6
9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6
10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Add/Subtract stats
11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7
12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 A Thousand Faces
13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8
14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 Shift(manmade objects)
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 “Shifter’s Timeless Body”
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Quickshift
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 Tongues
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +11 Mastery of Forms


Subtype/Vulnerability: At 1st level, a Shifter gains the subtype of Shapechanger, and becomes vulnerable to any and all weapons, spells, and other effects that target all shapechangers.

Shift (Ex): A Shifter can change their body to become nearly any creature that the Shifter character is familiar with, so long as the creature's CR is not higher than the character's Shifter level. This change is complete; their type changes to match the new creature (but they keep the shapechanger subtype), they gain all normal, extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, as well as the new form's Reflex and Fortitude saves (but they keep their Reflex and Fortitude saves as well as HD if the new form is humanoid), size, and even their weaknesses. They also change their physical stats (Str, Dex, and Con) to match the new form's by subtracting 10 from each of the new form's physical stats and then adding the results to their natural (before original racial modifiers) physical stats. The Shifter keeps any class abilities from other classes that she gained, but loses any racial extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities, in exchange for gaining all abilities of the new form. She does not, however, gain any spells the new form may be able to cast (though she does keep any spell-like abilities), and she does not get a "refresh" on uses per day of abilities by shifting to something else and back. She can never be immune to mind-affecting effects because of her form, no matter what form she's in, though she may gain resistance. They keep the same proficiencies and skill ranks as in their original form, and they gain levels the same as their original form as well. Their damage stays with them in all forms, it just changes so that the new form's damage:HP ratio is the same as the old one, rounded down if you have to round. All shifts are permanent (without any time limit) and any limbs or objects removed from the Shifter do not resume their original form. The Shifter becomes an average member of the creature she turns into, and does not gain any class levels or creature objects (such as Su weapons) by shifting.

Any objects that she carries with her are absorbed into her new form or not at her will when she shifts, but only for nonhumanoid creatures, and they may only absorb an amount of weight equal to half their light carrying capacity, rounded down. All magical effects stop if the magical item making them is absorbed, as if she had removed the item. All other items not absorbed are either left in place on the new form (if the new form has that body slot), or fall off at the Shifter's feet, at her choice. A Shifter may make false clothing, objects, and weapons from and on her body, but they offer no protection, are worth no market value (though they may seem quite beautiful if the Shifter wishes), give no bonuses to checks or saves, and any weapons (no weapons that weigh more than 5 lbs.) made only deal unarmed damage, though a shifter attacking with a weapon made from themselves does not count as unarmed (treat them as natural weapons) and can make the damage Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing, depending on the weapon made. They are also proficient with any false weapons made from themselves. The weapons, objects, and clothing cannot be separated from the Shifter's person, so they cannot make ammunition or sell items. Shift does not let a Shifter change details such as hair or eye color, distinguishing marks, etc. Only race/species, and apparent age. When shifted, she can communicate with creatures that are the same category as her (raven with birds, etc), so long as they do not possess a language. Since Shifting is an Extraordinary Ability, True Sight only sees the Shifter as their current form (though they may see any extra equipment that the Shifter has absorbed).

Shifting takes one Standard Action, and provokes an AoO. If used for a Disguise, it grants +10 if you're in a humanoid form, and +20 if non-humanoid. They still advance in age categories, though they may appear to be any age they like. This is because their natural age is tied to them the same way they retain their same mind throughout all their transformations.

At 1st level through 3rd, she can only Shift into humanoid and monstrous humanoid forms, and only one size category away from her original size. At 3rd level, she can become any nonhumanoid as well (provided its CR isn't higher than her Shifter level), and any natural object (within 1 size category of her original form), and any plant (such as a tree, shrub, stump, etc). Changing to a plant is identical in result to the spell Tree Shape, except that there is no magical aura or time limit. At 4th level, the Shifter is no longer limited by size restrictions, and at 14th level, she can transform into inanimate man made objects (she may transform into golems and the like before then). A Shifter cannot, however, turn into a magical weapon/item/etc, unless it specifically can act on its own like a Golem. Whether natural or manmade, when turning into an inanimate object the Shifter cannot become an object with more HP than the Shifter's natural HP. Intelligent weapons and the like do not count as acting on their own. If she tries to turn into a magical weapon, she only becomes the base weapon without any enchantments. However, she can have a wizard add enchantments to her item form like the wizard was crafting a magical item, and retains them as long as she remains in a form of the same category as the original enchanted object (sword to bladed weapon, pin to clothing fixture, etc), and they cannot use up their body as magical or alchemical components, or fuel or any sort.

(Yes, that is one mother-load of a class ability, but it kinda had to be that long. The whole class is based on it, after all, and without a lot of specifications it would be very easy to break.)

Familiarity: This is a rule about all the kinds of shapeshifting in D&D that most DMs forget about, and nearly every single case of someone breaking a shapeshifting ability is caused by the DMs forgetting this one. That is why I'm listing it as a separate class feature also, to make sure it's remembered. A Shifter can ONLY shift into creatures that the CHARACTER is familiar with the AVERAGE of. Unless there's a magical zoo nearby or something, a Shifter who has never seen the ocean cannot shapeshift into a whale or something, because she's never seen one enough to become familiar with whales. They cannot turn into a Disenchanter Beast if they've never seen one (and even then, they need to know the average). Ignoring the familiarity rule is like letting a Paladin get away with "forgetting" their Paladin's code or a Wizard get away with a free Wish spell without it being misinterpreted. Remember this rule, DMs, this is how shapeshifting is often broken by players, and this is how you can keep your munchkins under reigns. The exact definition of "familiar with" remains up to you and your player to discuss, though seeing/fighting some new creature only a few times generally does not make someone familiar with it, as the character is still wondering "what the heck ARE these things?!". Dissection would make them a bit more familiar with those specific creatures dissected (though only if the character has the knowledge/understanding to actually learn something from a dissection), but the DM is reminded that they need to have a good sense of the average for that species. And should the player try to seek obscure powerful creatures out in an attempt to force your hand, don't be afraid to remind them to separate player knowledge from character knowledge.

Also, DMs are encouraged to make the Shifter player make and keep sheets for all their forms ahead of time, to speed up gameplay, and to run any new sheets by the DM when they are made up. (a complete sheet isn't needed, just the changed stuff as a result of Shifting)

Change Self (Ex): At 2nd level the Shifter gains the equivalent of Disguise Self 1/day per Shifter level. The difference being that this is permanent and real (but objects still follow the rules for making objects by Shifting, though they may appear much more valuable and identical to other materials (though they still can't be sold or separated from the Shifter)), changing from a new look back requires another use of Change Self, and that this is not a magical effect, so that tactile(touch) and audible(sound) sensations of the Shifter and her equipment are changed as well (along with any other senses). They can even add outlandish qualities, such as fur or slimy skin or horns, but such changes are only superficial in nature. They may also change gender with this ability. However, they still do not gain the mannerisms or abilities of the new form from the use of this ability. This ability grants a +10 to disguise checks if this is used to make a disguise, but only stacks with the humanoid Disguise bonus from the Shift ability. Changing takes one standard action, but can be done in the same standard action as a Shift, so that it looks like they just shifted to the new form.

Talk in Any Form (Su): The Shifter can talk in any language they know in any form that they can turn into, even if the form normally doesn't have a language or cannot talk, starting at 6th level.

Add/Subtract Stats (Ex): At 10th level the Shifter can subtract from one natural (before racial/species modifiers are applied) physical stat to add to another. They cannot add more than they subtract, but they can make all their stats lower and back if they want to. Doing this takes one full round per 4 points you move around.

A Thousand Faces (Ex): At 12th level, the Shifter gains all the benefits of their Change Self ability, but at will.

"Shifter's Timeless Body" (Ex): At 15th level, the Shifter learns to separate their age from their mind, and can change their age by using Shift. If they stay in one body, that body will age normally, and they still can be magically aged. Treat any age category changes to physical stats, including past ones, as a special stat adjustment that can be changed by Shifting to a different age category. They still accumulate mental stat bonuses from aging temporally(by time passing), but do not get any mental stat changes from aging by using the Shift ability. A Shifter can last for eons using this ability.

Quickshift (Ex): At 17th level, the Shifter can use their Thousand Faces and Shift abilities as a free action instead of a standard one. They can still be done at the same time. Shifting no longer provokes an AoO.

Tongues (Sp): At 18th level, the Shifter gains all the benefits of a permanent Tongues spell, as if it were cast on them.

Mastery of Forms (Su): At 20th level, the Shifter can no longer be transfigured in any way against their will. This includes magical aging effects.


Ex-Shifters: If a Shifter takes a level in another class aside from Shifter, they can either thereafter only change between humanoid forms with an ECL equal to or less than their current character level, not counting Shifter levels as character levels but still counting them as HD, or pick a single form with an ECL equal to or less than his current character level, not counting Shifter levels unless in humanoid form, which becomes permanent and they lose all use of the Shift and Change Self ability. They can regain full use of the Shift (and Change Self)ability by taking another level in Shifter, but cannot fully use Shift any level where they did not level up in the Shifter class.


italics means edited.


Well, that's the class. I just liked the idea and thought it was never done justice, so here's my try. Whaddaya think? (And to those who are rabid about this sort of thing, NO class is immune to being broken. I just tried to make one that was about as breakable or less so than the standard basic starting classes, while still being powerful enough in its field as to be actually worth playing.) Feel free to steal this idea and design if you want, and tweak it as you like, the more Shifters there are out there, the better it is for the class as a whole.(except in the game world, but that's in the flavor :smalltongue:)

ErrantX
2009-01-02, 02:52 AM
Okay, first I'd like to say welcome to the forums, glad to have you, hope you stick around and help add to the community.

Now that the initial pleasantries are over, let's get to the grit.

While initially you peaked my curiosity with the title, I must say I agree with you. Shapeshifting either wasn't worth doing or too broken to let a player have. With that in mind, I think you've erred on the side of being too broken here. Let me explain why I think this.

First off, your shifting allows a character take on any and all special abilities and qualities of a creature they're shifting into. Even at low levels, that could get a little much. I'd suggest making class features later on through the progression that slowly introduce these over the course of 20 levels. Honestly, I'd break it apart into several abilities, it's a bit too strong overall. I especially have some problem with turning into a tea set, but... well, that may just be me. Not that that's necessarily too powerful... I guess i just don't like it. Personal taste.

The immunity to Lycanthropy I think is redundant, as you gain the shapechanger subtype at level 1.

Break quick shift stuff down into several parts in which you shift as a Full Round Action to a Standard, and so on.

The Mastery of Forms thing is also redundant due to have the shapechanger subtype.

Lastly... just no on your regeneration. Even at 20th level, just no. You've effectively made your character immortal. Maybe regeneration acid and fire, or something else. Silver. I dunno. But no on the limitless regeneration. That's just too much, what are ya, the tarrassque? :P

-X

ShifterOne
2009-01-02, 04:47 AM
Okay, first I'd like to say welcome to the forums, glad to have you, hope you stick around and help add to the community.Thanks!:smallsmile:


While initially you peaked my curiosity with the title, I must say I agree with you. Shapeshifting either wasn't worth doing or too broken to let a player have. With that in mind, I think you've erred on the side of being too broken here. Let me explain why I think this.Okay. Thanks for the input!:smallwink: (I need all the input I can get)


First off, your shifting allows a character take on any and all special abilities and qualities of a creature they're shifting into. Even at low levels, that could get a little much. I'd suggest making class features later on through the progression that slowly introduce these over the course of 20 levels. Honestly, I'd break it apart into several abilities, it's a bit too strong overall.Ah. Well, I had worried a little about that, too, but I had kinda figured that with the CR rule in place they wouldn't be getting much more useful stuff than a normal wizard, and that for anything really gamebreaking it'd be too obscure for it to pass the "familiarity" rule unless the DM okay'd it. Could you please give me some examples of common creatures and stuff that'd cause some game breaking in this way, so I can see what degree you mean and see if I can make this work while still keeping the special abilities? Thanks.:smallsmile:


I especially have some problem with turning into a tea set, but... well, that may just be me. Not that that's necessarily too powerful... I guess i just don't like it. Personal taste.Heh. That one was actually the product of a single line of fluff I once read in a bad Shifter class attempt. It went something like "At level one you're the guard in the corner of the enemy camp's tent. At level ten you're the warlord's personal horse. At level twenty you're the table they make the plans on.":smallamused: It's basically just there not for any real combat advantage so much as just for fun, like tricking an enemy into thinking that you're a valuable intelligent magic item, and that he should take you to his leader or something (or turning into a giant statue of yourself for your own glory). But, personal taste is personal taste, and if you use something like this in a game, feel free to take that part out.:smallsmile:


The immunity to Lycanthropy I think is redundant, as you gain the shapechanger subtype at level 1.Ah, well, that part was really mostly fluff to begin with anyway. Though, I'm not too clear on lycanthropy, and thought that a werewolf could still infect someone with the shapechanger subtype. I'll try and look that up and see about that.
*Does some checking*
Yeah, it doesn't actually mention anything about if they already have the shapechanger subtype. And I'm not sure if it mentions anything about types after it's already contracted, so this could probably go either way, really.


Break quick shift stuff down into several parts in which you shift as a Full Round Action to a Standard, and so on.Not... quite sure what you're saying. Though, if it helps, that ability was to balance out the Shapechange spell wizards get, which lets you change shape as a free action. You get it at the same level a wizard would get Shapechange, too.


The Mastery of Forms thing is also redundant due to have the shapechanger subtype.That, actually, I have a valid reason for putting there. The other Baleful Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object spells let you change a shapechanger if they fail their save, the shapechanger just can change back later on when it's their turn. But, until your turn comes around, you're still a sitting duck (sometimes literally). If a wizard casts that on you and it's the fighter or monk's turn next, you're toast. Plus, it was a nice way to finish up the partial anti-aging thing that was started earlier.


Lastly... just no on your regeneration. Even at 20th level, just no. You've effectively made your character immortal. Maybe regeneration acid and fire, or something else. Silver. I dunno. But no on the limitless regeneration. That's just too much, what are ya, the tarrassque? :P

-XHeh. Well, I kinda was looking for a good capping ability to finish the class off with. Though, I will admit that I did try and find something for them to be vulnerable to. But it just doesn't make sense for a Fire Elemental to be vulnerable to Fire, or let them turn into something immune to Fire and Acid damage anyway. And there wasn't really a damage type or anything that applied to ALL shapeshifters that I was aware of (there could be that I'm not aware of). However, my understanding of Regeneration could very well be wrong. Doesn't it just turn lethal damage into nonlethal (which only heals at 1 HP per hour), and prevent you from getting vorpal'd? I thought I was just adding a "press here for it to stay dead" button, since you'd have to deplete its HP anyway, whether by lethal or nonlethal damage. Only difference I saw was the "CdG after knockout to kill" part. But, I could VERY well be wrong (I'm not too good at memorizing the rules for this stuff). Actually, I think I'll add in that a weapon or something that deals extra to all shapechangers could be counted as lethal anyway, just for good measure. If I am wrong, care to point me in the right direction?
(Maybe I oughtta change it to DR...)


Anyway, thanks for the input!:smallsmile:
*gets to pondering more about the class*

*EDIT*
D'OH! Forgot to add the damage clarification to the Shift ability.
*goes to edit that in*

Solaris
2009-01-02, 07:21 AM
I'd have silver bypass the DR. Tradition, yo.

Triaxx
2009-01-02, 09:14 AM
Silver and Cold Iron.

ShifterOne
2009-01-02, 05:37 PM
I thought of Silver and Cold Iron, but neither of those really applies to the Shifter. They're not lycanthropes, nor fey.

Also, I still am not sure about the Regeneration thing.
*goes to find his source*
*notices something*
AHA! THAT'S the problem. I didn't notice the "fixed rate of healing per round" thing. That'd certainly explain things. I think.

Okay, so, that'd be the issue, I think. Though, I wasn't thinking the class would have NEARLY the recovery ability of a troll (unless they WERE a troll at that moment, of course :P). I was thinking Regeneration 0. Don't get any extra HP per round. Or would even Regeneration 0 be too much? Using the rule that you just need to be Coupe de Grace'd while unconcious to be killed, of course, nothing about that Wish or Miracle stuff. 9_9 Any DMs out there, is that still too much for 20th level?

PinkysBrain
2009-01-02, 06:10 PM
"Familiarity: This is a rule about all the kinds of shapeshifting in D&D that most DMs forget about, and nearly every single case of someone breaking a shapeshifting ability is caused by the DMs forgetting this one."

Every polymorph type ability can be artificially limited by limiting exposure to creatures which break polymorph type abilities ... unfortunately that list is incredibly large. "Throw away half your MM" is a solution to the brokenness of polymorph and it's offspring, it also happens to be a bad solution.

The only creatures which are statted for player use are those with LA ... neither HD nor CR will work well to gauge the strength of a creature in player hands. Can your class remain balanced after the DM wants to throw say one of the stronger Troll variants at the party? (Hell, any Troll.)

ShifterOne
2009-01-02, 06:23 PM
Sure it can. I don't really know that many people who say that just seeing one strange thing only one or two times is enough to make them comfortably familiar with them. If you suddenly ran into an undiscovered species of Dinosaur still living today, for instance, and managed to kill it after fighting for your life, it'd still be alien to you since you'd still be wondering "What the heck was THAT?!".

*goes to fix that little clarity confusion in the class*

PinkysBrain
2009-01-02, 06:28 PM
So having a fresh cadaver to dissect isn't enough to breed familiarity? If you intend familiarity to be a purely metagame balancing method where you discuss with the DM which creatures you can and can't become familiar with then I can see how it could be balanced I guess.

Not great for verisimilitude but meh.

ShifterOne
2009-01-02, 06:42 PM
It can make you familiar with that one specific creature, sure, but you turn into an average member of the species, and if you only have one or two you don't really know what the average for that species is (two gets you a lot closer than one, granted). If you fight against, kill, and dissect a whole group or something of the creatures, then yeah, I guess, you'd probably be familiar with them.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-02, 07:14 PM
If the player knows the creatures exist in the world and he wants familiarity bad enough he can engineer a situation where he can gain that familiarity, especially when starting a higher level character ... the only thing stopping him is the DM saying "No, your character doesn't do that or rocks fall".

I know that in general D&D is at the point where balance is pretty much reached by players willingly not using abilities to it's full potential ... but I don't really like that part of D&D. I think all polymorph type spells and alternate form abilities should be based off some type of point buy system ...

PS. got way off topic there though ... to be a little more helpful, polymorph is a 4th level spell, gaining large forms at level 3 with corresponding ability scores is just a tad overpowered even when the class is being balanced against games where polymorph is a standard combat buff. I'd keep shift humanoid only till level 7 at least and find some other ways to make the lower levels more playable.

ShifterOne
2009-01-02, 07:35 PM
Well, the DM could also say "Can't use out of character knowledge" when they try to start searching for them (or heck, it's the DM's setting, the only creatures that exist at all in there are the ones the DM lets exist). But yeah, I see your point. I had kinda hoped that the CR thing would help control that. But yeah.


And yeah, I'll admit that no class exists that is unbreakable. I'm just aiming for a Shifter class that's only about as breakable as the other core classes. Would you say I'm close to that amount, at least?

P.S. Also, the Large Forms was kinda to balance Enlarge Person and spread all of Polymorph out over several levels. But yeah, I'll keep that idea in mind.
*makes a mental note about maybe moving one or two of the shift abilities around a few levels*

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-02, 07:49 PM
My two cents:

The best way to limit Shifter Abuse is to limit what you can shift into. If you put in the limitation "May only know x number of alternate forms", that severely limits the abuse, and lets the GM know ahead of time what he's going to expect as far as shifting from the Shifter. A good rule of thumb is one form for every four levels, which is a total of 5 at level 20. Also let them replace an old form with a new form every so often.

This also eliminates a lot of 'bookkeeping'. If you've only got five forms, at level 20, then you've already pre-calculated all his stats for each of his forms, so you don't need to take two hours and look through three books to be able to figure out what your character is actually doing.

Second, look very hard at the Shapeshift Druid Variant from PhB II. This limits most of the Wild Shape Abuse possible. Take your ideas from this.

Third, Regeneration is broken. Do not let any players get access to it unless you want them immortal. Instead, may I suggest, at higher levels, an immunity to disease and poison, and perhaps Quick Healing as you level? (heals x hp per round, but does NOT count as Regeneration). If you're wanting them to regain hit points, Quick Healing is what you want. If you want them unable to die, that's Regen.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-02, 08:34 PM
I think the Shapeshift variant is a bit over the top in limiting synergy, just like the polymorph school spells from the PHB2. Taking away all that which makes a given character unique (spellcasting, magical items and with the polymorph school spells from PHB2 even class features) is balancing the ez mode way (aka the 4e way :p).

I think what Pathfinder did to the polymorph school spells and wildshape is more interesting.

ShifterOne
2009-01-02, 10:09 PM
Oh, you use Pathfinder? I like Pathfinder myself :smallsmile: (and also made a different skill set for this same class for Pathfinder use), but the polymorph stuff in Pathfinder kinda gets confusing trying to keep track of it all when you don't have a spell list by class and spell level. :smallconfused:

And I considered limiting the number of forms they could choose, but I eventually decided against that (after all, spell casters don't have that limit for number of different forms they can assume after casting Polymorph or similar spells).


And, as for Regeneration, I don't quite understand how that's that overpowered at 20th level, considering all the other things that the core classes can do at that level. :smallconfused: I can kinda see it, I guess, but it doesn't really seem like that much of a difference. But, if you really don't like it, feel free to not include that if you use this class idea in one of your games. :smallwink: Houserule trumps all, after all.


*EDIT*
All right, after some thinking about it (and some insistence :P), I think I'll ditch the Regen. :smalltongue:

Baron Corm
2009-01-02, 11:34 PM
How about you just make the only class feature "A Shifter can change their body to become any non-unique creature that she is familiar with, so long as the creature's CR is not higher than the character's Shifter level.", gained at level one? Wouldn't change the class much, and would save you a lot of effort :smalltongue:. Quick shifting or object shifting could be gained by feats.

It's pretty balanced, since a PC's class level is supposed to equal his CR anyway. A munchkin will break anything you give him, pages of specific rules or not. A normal player won't. A DM can always say "no" anyway, if he doesn't want his PC to have petrification or something.

Add/Subtract Stats is way too min/maxy for my tastes, regardless. I would take that out. I understand how it fits into the flavor of a shifter, but it's basically just "abuse me to pump your primary stat higher than it should be and make your worthless stat more worthless".

Edit: Read some of the comments. Regeneration 0 which allows a CDG to kill you after knocking you unconcious is both practically useless and unflavorful. I don't see why anyone would call it broken. Regeneration X which didn't would be the best class feature ever in the hands of a shifter, because they could just shift to cover their weakness (but still makes no sense if X=0). I could see why a shifter would get it though, for flavor read Animorphs :smallbiggrin:. Possibly a good level 20 ability, possibly too much.

Also, I would like someone to post a creature which is significantly more powerful than a PC of the same CR, just for some perspective.

ShifterOne
2009-01-03, 12:25 AM
Well, a lot of that stuff for the Shifter was meant to either keep it up with the other shapeshifting spells in versatility, or keep it from being broken WAY too easily. (there's the normal amount of broken, and then there's just begging to be abused) EDIT: And to be honest, I don't really like the idea of homebrew feats specifically for single homebrew classes that much. Just seems like you may as well make it a class feature if you're gonna include something like that. But that's just personal taste.


A munchkin will break anything you give him, pages of specific rules or not. A normal player won't. A DM can always say "no" anyway, if he doesn't want his PC to have petrification or something.THANK you. 9_9 :smallsmile:


Add/Subtract Stats is way too min/maxy for my tastes, regardless. I would take that out. I understand how it fits into the flavor of a shifter, but it's basically just "abuse me to pump your primary stat higher than it should be and make your worthless stat more worthless".Ah, that. The Add/Subtract thing was originally supposed to try to counter the Transformation spell of the wizard, but I can kinda see where you're coming from. (That's also kinda why I limited it to taking a long while, so it wouldn't be that useful DURING combat) Hmm. I'll keep that in mind, and think it over.


Edit: Read some of the comments. Regeneration 0 which allows a CDG to kill you after knocking you unconcious is both practically useless and unflavorful.again, THANK YOU. 9_9:smallsmile:
Though, it does have some small decent uses, but it is a far cry from being indestructible in combat.
EDIT: Regen is back up there now, but it's sitting on the fence. Feel free to ditch it or keep it as you please, if you use this class. I'm still kinda wondering about it. And as for flavor, this is supposed to make them a bit more amorphous, and kind of give them a "constant shapeshifting" feel even when they're only in one form for however long (I am not about to give them ANY class ability that lets them blend abilities of different creatures in order to get that feel, that's just ASKING to be broken).


Also, I would like someone to post a creature which is significantly more powerful than a PC of the same CR, just for some perspective.Still waiting for someone to post that myself.

DracoDei
2009-01-03, 08:20 AM
I am a bit tired as I type this, so clarity may be lacking... I will stand by the underlying thinking however.

The concept of limiting them to a few specific forms fills me with utter loathing. If I wanted to play a straightforward character who only has one thing to really contribute, I would play a fighter.

Shapeshifting should be about adaptation, and deception. And when I say "Adaptation" I mean "more Batman than the wizard". At higher level, if they use the same form twice in a row, then either the adventure is very repetitive in its challenges (not in and of itself a bad thing), the player is doing it wrong, or the class wasn't designed right. Trade off as much power in the individual forms as you have to to make that happen and you will have done it right by my book.

Wizards have hundreds of spells, dedicated shapeshifters should have AT LEAST that many forms in their arsenal.

Deception means that, at least once per adventure on average, you should have the badguys killing eachother because they are utterly misinformed about who you are among them, or because you fed them disinformation in a form they trusted. Ditto for having the enemies battleplan well before the fight starts.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 09:55 AM
And, as for Regeneration, I don't quite understand how that's that overpowered at 20th level
Troll is only CR5 ... so strictly speaking level 5 is when he can get it.

lesser_minion
2009-01-03, 10:44 AM
I would like someone to post a creature which is significantly more powerful than a PC of the same CR, just for some perspective.


Still waiting for someone to post that myself.

Even though it sounds like a good measure of power, CR is not the basis on which you should determine the suitability of any given ability for a PC. CR is weighted on the basis of a creature's effectiveness as an opponent - Fast Healing doesn't make you much harder to beat in a single fight, but a pre-4E PC should be susceptible to being slowly ground down and eventually forced to retreat. Being able to obtain Fast Healing can effectively remove this possibility. Other abilities are also a lot more useful to PCs than to opponents - wings, for example. This is the reason why, for example, a CR 4 Hound Archon is rated equivalent to a level 11 PC.

Using CR as a limiting factor for a character's shapeshifting is even worse than using CR as a way of calculating level equivalence - CR also takes into account mitigating factors to which a shapeshifter is not really subject - many opponents are given a CR on the basis of being one-trick ponies, with a single powerful ability (but nothing else that might synergise with this ability). A shapeshifter doesn't suffer from this problem.

Consider a CR5 Phase Spider. It's CR5 because of the One-Trick Pony issue. It can be really dangerous to a 5th level party because it can (and is smart enough) use this in a hit-and-run attack. Now think of all the ways your shifter might abuse an at-will Ethereal Jaunt.

With all of that considered, there is no way that allowing a PC to turn into a monster of CR (class level) or less with all abilities can be balanced. Even ECL (class level) is overpowered. I'm not sure what you can use instead - you might be able to forbid specific SLAs and their equivalents before a particular level, and even then I suggest reducing the CR or ECL cap.

Sorry about the massive rant there, aside from that I think this is probably mostly quite good. The Familiarity rule certainly helps curb the worst of the abuses that I just suggested, and I personally think that it is definitely justified as a requirement for shapeshifting options.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 11:15 AM
How about the Ravid, CR5 ... animate object at CL 20 once per round.

Baron Corm
2009-01-03, 02:23 PM
Personally I am convinced... however I don't think this would apply at all levels. Once you start getting into higher levels, a creature that has an ability which emulates a high-level spell isn't that impressive. Perhaps you should make a table of things that monsters can possibly have, and the maximum amount of that that you can get from a form at any level. This would include SLAs or Supernatural abilities which were close to SLAs; you wouldn't get them too soon before a wizard. I say "before" because you won't have access to them all at once like he will. Something like this:

{table=head]Level|Damage Reduction|Spell Level|Energy Resistance|Fast Healing
1|2|1|2|0
5|5|4|5|0
10|15|6|15|Any
15|Any|9|Any|Any
20|Any|9|Any|Any[/table]

I only did every 5 levels because it's a lot of work :P. Also, I got the numbers by estimation instead of looking through the SRD, and there could possibly be limitations on more things.

Thematically, this represents the shifter's ability to shift increasing. To further balance, you could say that any SLA has a caster level equal to your shifter level, and that they can only be used X times per day even if unlimited. That might not be necessary though.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 02:38 PM
The problem is that there are a ton of non spell based Su abilities out there, as well as a lot of Ex abilities which are hugely powerful in the hands of players. You shouldn't need an exhaustive list of abilities which needs to be updated each time a new monster is added to your world. I used to have some polymorph houserules up on a server ... but it's down at the moment, so I copy pasted them in a spoiler in here. Essentially it's a point buy system, still highly flexible ... but not broken just because random monster X is in your world.

In retrospect though it might be better to allow this system for spell research and include some standard versions of the spell instead, to cut down on the amount of time it takes for a player to find the set of abilities he wants on the fly. A shapechanger could start with a couple of basic forms, which he could slowly upgrade as well as get more forms as he leveled (perhaps a quick research feature to allow him to research a new unique form X times a day as well).

These spells replace alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object and shapechange.

Lesser Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You assume the form of any creature of your own size, even an imaginary one. You must make a Disguise check with a +10 bonus when you cast the spell. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the caster’s Disguise check. You cannot wield more manufactured weapons than in your natural form. You can choose to retain any qualities of your natural form as long as you have the appropriate body parts to do so. Any worn equipment which can resize to fit does so, any remaining items are absorbed and become non-functional and are restored when the spell ends.

For every 3 caster levels you can pick one of the following abilities :
One or a pair of natural weapons.
Size increase, effects as enlarge person, no larger than colossal.
Size decrease, effects as reduce person, no smaller than fine.
+2 natural armor bonus to AC.
Fly speed at landspeed, maneuverability clumsy (need wings).
Swim speed at landspeed, gain aquatic subtype.
Climb speed at landspeed.
Burrow speed at half landspeed (need claws, only through materials softer than rock).


Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

As lesser polymorph, add following abilities:
An additional natural weapon.
Additional size increase, effects as enlarge person, no larger than colossal.
Additional size decrease, effects as reduce person, no smaller than fine.
Fly speed at twice landspeed, maneuverability average (need wings).
+4 bonus to strength.
+4 bonus to dexterity.
+4 bonus to constitution.


Greater Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

As polymorph, add following abilities:
Pounce.
Rend (need 2 claws).
Improved grab.
Fly speed at twice landspeed, maneuverability perfect (need wings).
Additional +2 natural armor bonus to AC.
Additional +4 bonus to strength.
Additional +4 bonus to dexterity.
Additional +4 bonus to constitution.
Burrow speed at half landspeed (need claws).


Superior Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

As greater polymorph, add following abilities:
An additional natural weapon.
Additional size increase, effects as enlarge person, no larger than colossal.
Additional size decrease, effects as reduce person, no smaller than fine.
Additional +2 natural armor bonus to AC.
Additional +4 bonus to strength.
Additional +4 bonus to dexterity.
Additional +4 bonus to constitution.
Tenser's Transformation, you are affected just as if you cast the spell.

Baron Corm
2009-01-03, 02:57 PM
That's a lot like the shapeshift druid variant, which is easier to balance, but doesn't let you infiltrate an illithid stronghold, or pull out your trump card of your greatest form, the harpy's song, or various other cool things that shifters want to do. It's really great for a druid or a polymorph spell, but I don't think it quite makes it for a class who bases its identity around this feature.

Could you also give an example of an Ex or Su ability which doesn't fit an existing spell nearly enough? I mean, damage amounts, number of targets, "lose" potential... every aspect of an ability has been categorized by the spell system. These are the things that people think about when making new spells, and they could just be applied to existing abilities.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 03:42 PM
Meh, so Telepathy is necessary for getting into an Illithic camp ... knowing languages is necessary for just about any other camp and that knowledge doesn't come with shapeshifting. There are items which give telepathy, so just being able to get the form would be enough.

A shapeshifter is not an ideal infiltrator, a body snatcher is ... of course if you get all Ex\Su abilities with shapeshifting you can simply get the ability to body snatch! The possibilities are endless. You can outfight the fighter, you can outcast the caster, you can outmanoeuvre the monk. (Even normal spellcasting ... there are creatures with spellcasting as an Xth level caster as an Ex ability!) Anything they can do you can do better. Hell, this class could reach pun pun faster than existing classes! What the player wants and what can be given to him without breaking the game are two different things.

As for non spell based overpowered Ex abilities and Su abilities ... meh, you are going to find one every 5-10 creatures.

Regeneration has already been mentioned.
Ethereal Jaunt has already been mentioned (this works differently than the spell, several creatures can jump from one plane to the next as free/move actions)
Enthrall (Ex) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/puppeteer.htm) is a good one.
Time Filch (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/temporalFilcher.htm) is pretty uber contextually (CR3).
Feed (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) is always a funny one.
etc etc.

PS. sorry for the exclamation marks, but there is no end to the amount of ways Shapechange (and similar abilities) can break the game in horrible horrible ways ... and it surprises me I even have to explain this here :)

PPS. but hell, you could add a X time a day ability to use spell-like or Su abilities for the creature who's shape you assume with the shapeshifter PrC which works just as long as the ability is directly based on an existing spell and the level of the spell isn't greater than half your character level.

Baron Corm
2009-01-03, 04:06 PM
Enthrall - Dominate monster. Wouldn't get until you can get 9th level spells.

Time Filch very clearly mentions time hop.

Feed - Now there's a challenge. 50% chance to not be able to ressurect (meh), and 1 HD per creature killed, maximum +12. Regardless of what you say, I think this ability is pretty rare in that it lets you actually just transform into a better creature by having it. I might rule that the increase in HD increases the creature's CR so you could not use it until you were one level higher for each effective CR increase.

You would not gain spellcasting as an (Ex) ability until a wizard could get it... and if the CR of a monster with spellcasting equal to its HD and decent other stuff is not above its HD then I'm afraid that was a poorly set CR and should be changed. If having it as (Ex) means that everything bypasses SR then the CR should be way above.

You have proven to me that there are monsters broken for there CR, but not if you limit their stuffs.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 04:12 PM
Time Filch very clearly mentions time hop.
It mentions it, but it works differently ... it's a lot more powerful in fact. Same with Enthral, it's in fact more powerful than dominate monster.

How is the fact that they resemble spells relevant?

Baron Corm
2009-01-03, 04:23 PM
Because by the time you are able to use 9th level spells/abilities, you don't want to be changing into a small, 3 HD creature and having to make physical contact. Would you rather be a Flesh Harrower Puppeteer or a 17th level full caster?

Time Filch does require a pretty easy grapple check instead of a Will save, but still allows a DC 15 Wisdom check to escape (odds are you'll make it before 7 minutes), plus YOU are taken out of combat as well as the other guy, which makes it much less uber. It is a lot cooler than time hop (makes you feel like you really are a temporal filcher), but not really overpowering, so I actually really like it as a shifter ability.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 05:04 PM
Because by the time you are able to use 9th level spells/abilities, you don't want to be changing into a small, 3 HD creature and having to make physical contact. Would you rather be a Flesh Harrower Puppeteer or a 17th level full caster?
Depends, do we have really dangerous monster or BBEG subdued for which a non dispellable enthral would be handy? The BBEG is probably going to be at least as good as a 17th level caster if the party caster can cast dominate monster. The biggest limitations on spell based domination powers is the very real danger of suddenly ending up with a very powerful extra opponent in a fight rather than an ally if the domination gets dispelled ... that is why Enthral is more powerful. Sure it's just one ability which is overpowered in a given context, but there are a lot of monsters and a lot of abilities which are overpowered in given contexts ... enough to match every context likely to arise.

Talking about domination ... Create Spawn (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) is another great one, as I said it's endless.

ShifterOne
2009-01-03, 05:06 PM
Troll is only CR5 ... so strictly speaking level 5 is when he can get it.

Actually, even if he turned into a troll, he'd still have the same weaknesses as a troll. So, a few vials of acid, and there you go.

Also, thank you for reminding me about that spell-casting stuff. (though, you don't get class levels, so if it's a monster that's nearly always an X level wizard, you still wouldn't get the wizard levels.)
*goes to make that addendum*

As far as Pun-Pun, any DM who lets a monster in his game with THAT ability in the first place is just ASKING to have their game broken. When I first saw that ability, I thought it belonged to a kobold god or something.:smalleek:

And for each of those creatures you listed, they each have something about them that balances those abilities. The Puppeteer, for instance, has only 1 HP. If the Shifter was injured even the slightest bit, they couldn't become one without sending themselves to 0 or less HP, and one of the casters could just run up and stomp on them or snipe them from afar. The Temporal Filcher just can daze someone, level 1 wizards can do the same thing, and the Barghest needs to actually kill someone first.

EDIT: Also, as far as any create spawn ability, you can create all the vampires you want, but as soon as you turn into something else, the "they follow your commands" part of their ability isn't there anymore, because the ability itself isn't there anymore. Abilities don't transfer between forms, after all.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 05:08 PM
Actually, even if he turned into a troll, he'd still have the same weaknesses as a troll. So, a few vials of acid, and there you go.
Which I'm sure the players would have handy when going out to fight trolls, but random opponent number X you run into won't. Random opponent number X will probably not even have sufficient knowledge to know how to defeat a troll ... assuming he even has intelligence.

ShifterOne
2009-01-03, 08:21 PM
Any single creature or bad guy able to take on a whole party around that level shouldn't really have that much trouble with one troll, since the level adustment for a troll character is +5 anyway.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 08:25 PM
That's not hot level adjustments are supposed work (not that they really work). LA+5 + 5-HD means that a troll without any class levels is supposed to be the equivalent of a 10th level character ...

ShifterOne
2009-01-03, 09:19 PM
So, wait, you're saying that a single baseline troll character (With a CR of 5 and no class levels) can go toe-to-toe with a level 10 villain or CR 10 monster, then? I'm not sure I follow...
(At best, they'd get the tar beat out of them and humiliated, until eventually they got beaten to SO MUCH paste that they didn't reform until a good while after the villain left or they got eaten)

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 09:39 PM
No ... the game doesn't quite work that way, it's all based on rules of thumb and certainly not meant for 1:1 matchups. Also when they are played as PCs in a group these creatures work differently, the group covers up your weaknesses (ie. they can give you energy resistance for instance) and you will be much better geared than the "normal" troll. The assumption is that a Troll PC in a party with other ECL (Effective Character Level) 10 characters should be able to overcome an EL (Encounter Level) 10 challenge with the party expending roughly 20% of it's daily resources. This might consist of a single CR10 creature ... although the guidelines for determining EL from CR don't always work well for single critter encounters.

What's important though is that if you played a Troll as a PC you wouldn't even have your first class level at level 10 following the rules for monstrous characters. Meanwhile with your class a PC can essentially play as a troll at level 5 ... and do so much more.

ShifterOne
2009-01-04, 12:57 AM
I'm still don't think I'm entirely clear on what exactly it is you're saying. I know you're saying it's too powerful, but I'm not quite sure how exactly you're trying to say it, if that makes any sense.

Doesn't ECL depend on everyone else as well, though? I mean that any character fighting in a high level party would have a higher level ECL due to buffs, items, and other stuff. Besides, you can still be beaten up pretty badly with nonlethal damage as a troll.

And besides, you admitted yourself that ECL is pretty broken. Isn't CR a much better measure of power?

(And as far as taking shifter just to play a monster character or something, I might add in that monk thing about losing any class abilities if you stray)

EDIT: Oh, wait, are you trying to say that when calculating your ECL you'd add 5 Shifter levels to a CR 5 Troll when you're a troll? Is that how you're getting your ECL of 10? Um, dude, when a Shifter is a CR 5 Troll, they're just a CR 5 Troll. Like starting a Troll character in a level 5 group with no class levels for the Troll character. A druid gets CR + HD and all that because they can still do druid stuff like cast spells (seriously, what druid wouldn't get natural spell? :P), or because the monster character has taken another class for their HD. A Shifter's HD give them no real benefit in addition to any abilities they have aside from WHAT they can turn into, and when they're turned into something, a Shifter's HD effectively wouldn't exist for determining ECL. A Shifter can just do what the average Troll could do. Take away items, a level 20 Shifter turned Troll is pretty much JUST as powerful as a level 5 Shifter turned Troll. Is that what you were saying, though?

PinkysBrain
2009-01-04, 12:47 PM
A troll can't start in a level 5 group ... a troll, with 0 class levels (just his monstrous humanoid hit dice) would be an ECL 10 character, just like a human level 10 fighter. ECL = LA + racial HD + class levels. LA usually overestimates the power of a monster as a PC, but CR severly underestimates the power of a monster as a PC ... especially in this case.

The CR for the monster isn't meant for situations where the monster is custom fit to exploit the weaknesses of the opponents, it isn't meant for a monster wearing PC gear, isn't meant for a monster in a PC party. All those assumptions are flawed in your case.

How about this for Ex/Su abilities ... lets say you can absorb them from a fresh corpse (say dead 10 rounds or less). Say you can store X such abilities, you can only activate them once and upon activation their effect only lasts 10 hours (even if the effect is normally instantaneous and/or without duration ... so if you used say a spawn ability the spawn would die after 10 hours). You can infiltrate the Illithid camp but you can't be telepathic anywhere any time. This could be made balanced.

ShifterOne
2009-01-05, 09:16 AM
Hmm.
Though, the keeping special abilities is what puts the Shifter's shapeshifting above the wizard's, and lets the Shifter compete with Wizard X who can also shapeshift and cast spells on top of that. (And quite frankly, they get about as much use out of magic items as monks do, since a lot of forms wouldn't be able to wear various magic items, or they'd have to lug around the armor and such specific for several forms (and form specific weapons, if they intend to use those), then take it out and don it during the starting turn(s) of the battle.)

What you're really describing is if they picked one form, and abandoned all their other Shifter forms for it. They may get a few really good combat bonuses by specializing, but they stagnate. A Shifter's greatest asset in combat is sheer versatility, changing forms several times in one encounter. Besides, an adventuring group pretty much never stays buffed at all times, and it doesn't really affect non-caster classes that much. And if the wizard can cast Bull's Strength, do you think he's gonna cast it on the Shifter who can literally become a Bull at the expense of making them more powerful than the rest of the group every time they fight, or is the wizard gonna cast it on the Fighter (who can use it better anyway), and make the group stronger and more even as a whole?

Anyway, as far as the "become a monster character early" problem, I think I got a solution that you might like! :D (maybe)
How about this for Ex-Shifters? If a Shifter takes a level in another class aside from Shifter(which they'd have to do eventually to abuse that "stay-in-one-form" strategy), they lose all uses of the Shift ability and must assume a form with an ECL equal to their HD permanently. They can regain use of the Shift ability by taking another level in Shifter, but cannot use Shift any level where they did not level up in the Shifter class.



Also, to everyone else:
I got rid of the Lycanthropy Immunity and the Regeneration. The Lycanthropy immunity because it was both far too obscure and the question of whether they even COULD get infected was confusing enough, and the Regen because even though it offered no combat benefits at all, it did give the class +5 for Intimidate checks against DMs, which is not what you want for a class you're trying to spread the use of. :smallwink: :smalltongue:
(Plus, it does help streamline the class a bit)

PinkysBrain
2009-01-05, 09:46 AM
Sure, the Wizard can shapechange ... and the BBEG can gate you all to the positive energy plane and tell you to stand still for a while so he can watch you explode.

The game breaks very fast if you play it by RAW, I personally say that's a good reason not to play it by RAW ... but regardless it's not a good reason to break the game worse (shapechange breaks the game at level 17, you do it "a little" faster). At least save the Su abilities till level 17 and put a spell and caster level cap on Sp abilities.

ShifterOne
2009-01-05, 10:19 AM
That's the thing, I know that there is no class in existence that cannot be broken. I also know that shapeshifting if left to the player's sole descretion is as game-breaking as letting the Wizard get away with whatever they want on the Wish spell, every time. The main thing I hope to do, though, is make a shapeshifting class that is actually worth spending levels on that doesn't break as fast as, say, the wizard or druid. It'll still break, there's no class that won't, but I'm just aiming for about the same breakability as the core classes. If I can get a shapeshifting class that's in that area (more breakable than some, less that others), and help get that varient of Shifters started in popularity (for an obscure class), it'll be a success.

The way most people stop the game from breaking, though, is that usually there's an unspoken agreement between the players and the DM that they all gather together for the fun of the group, and when a person starts intentionally pulling Pun-Puns out of the hat, it stops being fun for most people there. Most players generally don't actively try to break the game because of that. (There are some people that do try to ruin everyone's fun, though, I will admit.)


Now, as far as caster level caps, that'd actually be reasonable. How about have all caster levels for special abilities be at max equal to your Shifter level? As for the Su and one-trick-pony problems, I'll try thinking something up. Would you say that most one-trick-pony problems are from Outsiders, or some other group?

ShifterOne
2009-01-07, 12:14 AM
Ah, wait. I think I see the problem, and the reason for our back-and-forth. You mentioned that the spell Shapechange broke the game, would you say that it breaks to game so much that you wouldn't allow it in your campaign, or that it broke the game to the point where you would only allow it under strict DM supervision or something, or something else?


EDIT: To everyone else (even if you're just now reading the thread): Also, I realise now that I didn't quite completely answer those of you before who were complaining about one-trick-pony monsters. My bad, I'll try to answer that properly now: Well, for one thing, depending on the campaign, the players probably wouldn't encounter that many one-trick-pony monsters more than once or twice at all (which is generally because they're one trick ponies, and thus usually easy to defend against when you know their trick). And the REALLY powerful ones tend to be really obscure even to most DMs, much less the players. Granted, there are a few one-trick-ponies that'll be rather common depending on the campaign, DM, and all sorts of factors. In those cases, you can allow it for stealth only, let them have the ability as normal, let them roll knowledge checks if you feel generous, or if it would be COMPLETELY game-breaking, you can just say "No" as DM ("For some reason or another, these creatures are hard to wrap your mind around. It might take a few more levels before you comprehend them fully."). Besides, even if you did include a few one-trick-ponies in large groups and let them have those abilities, they'd only get that small number of one-trick-ponies. One-trick-ponies tend to be rare shakeups for the players, mostly, it gets boring/frustrating dealing with a Rust Monster for the 4th time in a single adventure or so. But throwing tons and tons of one-trick-ponies in decent-sized groups at the party would probably be like expecting the Cleric in an undead campaign not to overpower the other characters. (And if they go looking for them, don't be afraid to remind them to separate player knowledge from character knowledge)

Anyway, did that answer it properly? ....or did I accidentally sound like I was ranting and still not answer that issue satisfactorily?

...Also, feel free to make the Shifter Player do the bookkeeping. "Oh, you don't have a sheet made up for that form? I guess you're not as familiar with it as you thought..." :smallwink: That'll help speed up gameplay and encourage the Shifter Player to build a repetoire ahead of time for the DM to approve, so you don't get bogged down in the middle of the game if you as a DM need to say "no".

lesser_minion
2009-01-07, 09:25 AM
But throwing tons and tons of one-trick-ponies in decent-sized groups at the party would probably be like expecting the Cleric in an undead campaign not to overpower the other characters. (And if they go looking for them, don't be afraid to remind them to separate player knowledge from character knowledge)

This is a reasonable point, although I'm still worried that somebody could find some cheese here. The way I read Manipulate Form(Su), the target had to be native to Toril - effectively making the cheese utterly impossible in any campaign but Forgotten Realms. This doesn't seem to have been touched upon by the creators of the cheese, and it hasn't stopped DMs in other settings from specifically banning the ability (outside of FR, just let your PC turn into a Sarrukh and then read the description of manipulate form out to them...:smallamused:).

I think I mentioned it before, but even though the Familiarity rule is completely justified and legitimises DMs houseruling out the more broken stuff, it isn't necessarily something that will be considered a balancing factor - munchkins pay even less attention to RP requirements than 'theoretical' min-maxers (the guys who made Pun-Pun, for example).

ShifterOne
2009-01-07, 01:26 PM
Heh. I can certainly understand that worry, shapeshifting of ANY kind can be dangerous in the hands of Munchkins (One of the reasons many attempts at the Shifter class are underpowered to the point that wizards are better shapeshifters). And I didn't notice that little fine print in the rules about Manipulate Form, nice catch! :smallwink: :smallamused: Heh. (Still sounds more like a Demi-god ability to me, anyway.)

But, should you end up with a munchkin player attempting to be obvious and take a Shifter class, that "familiar" part is just as much fine print as that "native of Toril" part of the Manipulate Form ability. Consider enforcing character familiarity like you would that little point of "native to Toril" in that ability. Actually, to make it even easier for the DM to use that as fine print, I'm gonna go back and specify character familiarity.

Oh, and another thing that JUST BARELY didn't get put in as an actual game mechanic, but got turned into fluff: Fear of Shifters by the public. I'll probably go back and play that up in the fluff some more as well, so it's more obvious. Anyway, when you can't tell one Shifter from another and evil Shifters can usually get away with most anything (not to mention all those fairy tales of evil shapeshifters, werewolves, etc.), it's only natural for the public to want to run someone they find out to be a Shifter out of town (if they're generous. In some cases, they'd try and kill them on the spot for their own percieved "safety", like they would for any monster character.). Munchkins usually ignore bystanders, so feel free to instill some fear into them. :smallamused:
RP can be one of the DM's best weapons against the munchkins, after all.
(Yes, wizards and the like can also get away with the same amount eventually, but not the early level ones. Plus, good ol' commoner superstition.) Hmmm. Wait, think I should put that "Fear of Shifters" as a class ability for clarification, like I did the "Familiarity" part?

Oh, and you can also use Familiarity as a bait to encourage roleplaying. :smallsmile: Tell your player that if they do good roleplaying, you might see fit to let them have a little bit of small cheese as a reward, in addition to roleplaying XP. If that doesn't encourage your Shifter players to focus on roleplaying, nothing will. :smallwink:

EDIT: Okay, went and changed/added that. Anyway, did I answer your concerns okay? I really want DMs to feel comfortable letting their players use this class/introducing this class to their players.

lesser_minion
2009-01-08, 10:33 AM
I think the easiest method might be to treat Forms in a similar way to Wizard spells - you can learn forms freely if you have access to the right materials to study them. Whether or not the DM permits 'manuals' that teach the shifter to assume a particular form is then up to him. Possibly require them to learn forms by some new class feature that lets them commune with a willing creature - then, if they can find a friendly demon/sarrukh/whatever, they can possibly convince it to grant the Shifter it's form.

You can possibly provide a standard forms list and assume that all shifters have an affinity for particular forms from that list, represented by them learning those forms automatically as they level.

Other than that, this does seem like an excellent class. Well done!

ShifterOne
2009-01-08, 08:38 PM
Well, they kinda are like Wizard spells, only a bit more roleplayed out as far as the player handling them, provided the DM requires the Player to have sheets already made up for their forms (which I personally encourage). Have them run any new sheets by you to check for game-breakage. They'd naturally pick out a few good ones when they go up a level that they already would like and know about (but not have been powerful/skilled enough shifters to turn into), keep those in stock, and pick up a few more even during play. Like a wizard playing out their spell research on the go, and no specific number of forms to learn at each new level. :smallsmile:

The "manuals"/"materials" in this case being the actual creatures, but if you feel like it, you could make special "Shifter" manuals (supposedly written by Shifter Mages or something else) designed to give them a new form. And unless they encounter demons, etc, or whatnot regularly, you could still have the demons/etc grant them specific knowledge (being familiarity with their form, though I should remind you that they don't get any creature equipment (No vorpal blade just from turning into a Balor)).

Anyway, my point is, this class is flexible by its very nature, feel free to play them like a wizard or such or any way you want to play them in your campaign! :smallwink: You're the DM, after all. (And if you're not the DM, your DM is the DM, so talk to them about it. :smalltongue:)

And thanks! :smallbiggrin: Feel free to edit it however you want for your own use, and also feel free to include it in any game you like!

Does anyone else have a worry about the class, complaint about balance, or something else I can help address? If you'd like to comment on this class, feel free, I'd love to hear back about it and adjust it if need be. :smallsmile: (I'd also love to hear how it plays in your games if anyone actually used this design, and how the different players and DMs handle it)(And if for some strange reason someone feels they have to ask for permission to use something posted on a publicly readable homebrew board, they have my full permission)

*goes back and finishes off some little fine-tuning of obscure details to help streamline the class*



EDIT: Okay, this thread has gone to the second page. I'm gonna assume that means that we're done with the input and such, and finalize the class. Thanks for your help, guys, you've definitely helped me fine tune some of the initial problems out of it! :smallsmile:

*Goes back to edit first post in case someone reads this thread in the archives*