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Burley
2009-01-02, 11:29 AM
In an effort to get my DM to allow the swordmage into his upcoming campaign, I wanted to get outside opinions of the class, how it works with other classes, and how it works against monsters.
I've already given him my point of view, but he said he wanted to hit some forums. I'll link him this thread if it gets big enough to prove any points. :smallwink:

So, some of his key concerns are:
1) Aegis power: Marking and Teleportation
2) Aegis power: Marking and Damage Reduction
3) Class Shadowing: would it make the fighter obsolete because it adds extra effects.
4) At-will Close Burst power: On par with the Ranger's Dire Wolverine Strike, which is an encounter power, except that it deals force damage. (I consider it on par, because many of the Ranger's 1[W] damage powers will be in the d6-d8 range.)

Edit: Concern 4 isn't something he's voiced yet, but I imagine it could be a problem if we don't deal with it now.

Gralamin
2009-01-02, 11:48 AM
In an effort to get my DM to allow the swordmage into his upcoming campaign, I wanted to get outside opinions of the class, how it works with other classes, and how it works against monsters.
I've already given him my point of view, but he said he wanted to hit some forums. I'll link him this thread if it gets big enough to prove any points. :smallwink:

So, some of his key concerns are:
1) Aegis power: Marking and Teleportation
2) Aegis power: Marking and Damage Reduction
3) Class Shadowing: would it make the fighter obsolete because it adds extra effects.
4) At-will Close Burst power: On par with the Ranger's Dire Wolverine Strike, which is an encounter power, except that it deals force damage. (I consider it on par, because many of the Ranger's 1[W] damage powers will be in the d6-d8 range.)

Edit: Concern 4 isn't something he's voiced yet, but I imagine it could be a problem if we don't deal with it now.

1) Aegis of Assault isn't a popular choice, but its the better one. Your saying "Attack me or Attack my friends and get hurt."
2) Aegis of Shielding blocks damage, but does nothing to stop the more important things: Conditions.
3) No. Fighters are awesome, especially if you allow Martial Power.
4) Your comparing a defender to a striker? The at-will is fine, Swordmages are supposed to be Defender/Controllers, and this helps them do so.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-02, 11:56 AM
So, some of his key concerns are:
1) Aegis power: Marking and Teleportation
2) Aegis power: Marking and Damage Reduction
Yeah, so what is his concern exactly, that it's overpowered? We already have "marking and damage" (paladin) as well as "marking without requiring a minor action and you can't run past me" (fighter).



3) Class Shadowing: would it make the fighter obsolete because it adds extra effects.
No. The fighter also adds extra effects, albeit different ones.



4) At-will Close Burst power: On par with the Ranger's Dire Wolverine Strike, which is an encounter power, except that it deals force damage.
If that really bothers him, just take another at-will. The point is that area effects are the Controller's turf, and whereas the Swordmage leans towards controller, the ranger does not. Hence, the swordmage gets (slightly) better area powers.

The Mormegil
2009-01-02, 12:59 PM
1) Aegis of Assault isn't a popular choice, but its the better one. Your saying "Attack me or Attack my friends and get hurt."
2) Aegis of Shielding blocks damage, but does nothing to stop the more important things: Conditions.

Actually, the Assault is far less useful than the Shielding. This is because, while the Assault does nothing to refrain monsters to attack people, since the Swordsage deals so little damage, the Shielding actually reduces most of the damage the target would deal. Conditions are important, but neither do nothing to stop them. Remember: while Shielding is an interrupt, Assault is a reaction. Which is also bad for powers that let you strike as the mark triggers (such as the AWESOME lvl 3 enc power, Transposing Lunge).

Shielding Swordmages actually run away from marked monsters to make their mark work (thus reducing the damage those monsters will cause in the encounter... while they tank the other targets with Booming Blade or dispose of minions with Arcane Reaching Sword Burst) and are the best allies of strikers (apart from a flanker, maybe...).


3) No. Fighters are awesome, especially if you allow Martial Power.
4) Your comparing a defender to a striker? The at-will is fine, Swordmages are supposed to be Defender/Controllers, and this helps them do so.

This I totally agree with.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-02, 01:05 PM
Actually, the Assault is far less useful than the Shielding. This is because, while the Assault does nothing to refrain monsters to attack people, since the Swordsage deals so little damage, the Shielding actually reduces most of the damage the target would deal. Conditions are important, but neither do nothing to stop them. Remember: while Shielding is an interrupt, Assault is a reaction. Which is also bad for powers that let you strike as the mark triggers (such as the AWESOME lvl 3 enc power, Transposing Lunge).


Ugh, I had this discussion with Oslecamo some time ago... Aegis of Assault does not deal "so little damage", it has the same damage output as the opportunity attack a fighter gets when a marked enemy doesn't attack him. If an enemy ignores the swordmage's tanking, then so it would do with a fighter's.

Artanis
2009-01-02, 02:07 PM
In an effort to get my DM to allow the swordmage into his upcoming campaign, I wanted to get outside opinions of the class, how it works with other classes, and how it works against monsters.
I've already given him my point of view, but he said he wanted to hit some forums. I'll link him this thread if it gets big enough to prove any points. :smallwink:

So, some of his key concerns are:
1) Aegis power: Marking and Teleportation
2) Aegis power: Marking and Damage Reduction
3) Class Shadowing: would it make the fighter obsolete because it adds extra effects.
4) At-will Close Burst power: On par with the Ranger's Dire Wolverine Strike, which is an encounter power, except that it deals force damage. (I consider it on par, because many of the Ranger's 1[W] damage powers will be in the d6-d8 range.)

Edit: Concern 4 isn't something he's voiced yet, but I imagine it could be a problem if we don't deal with it now.
1 and 2 are reduced by the fact that the Swordmage can only mark one target at a time. AND the Swordmage has to choose between not doing damage and not being forced out of position. If the Swordmage uses his Aegis of Assault attack, he's liable to leave a squishy open to attack. On top of that, it's easier to get around the Swordmage's mark than it is a Fighter's: if you include the Swordmage in the attack, the Swordmage's mark does nothing, while the Fighter's mark will smack the enemy if they try to get away from him at all, no matter who it then attacks.

3 doesn't happen not only because of 1 and 2 not being a concern, but also because the Swordmage does crap for damage. Extra effects, yes, but those extra effects are mostly ongoing damage or push/pull/slide. There isn't all that much that really screws with an enemy's ability to fight.

4 isn't a problem because AoE is part of the Swordmage's job, but not part of the Ranger's. The Ranger is designed to beat the crap out of one or two targets, so of course it won't be very good at dealing with a whole clump.


A few more knocks against the Swordmage:

*As I said, its damage output is pathetic, and said damage is slightly MAD. Even if a marked target takes just as much damage as a Fighter-marked one, that's only if you take Aegis of Assault. And either way, the rest of the Swordmage's damage output is terrible. Plus, a lot of what damage it can deal relies partly on STR. The feat that lets you use INT for your Basic Attack doesn't help all the powers that say things like "1d8+INT+STR damage".
*It wears light armor. While the Swordmage is designed so that that it has the same AC as the Fighter and Paladin anyways, many of the good Defender enchantments are restricted to heavy armor.
*It's stuck with Light Blades and Heavy Blades.

Mercenary Pen
2009-01-02, 02:11 PM
Actually, the Assault is far less useful than the Shielding. This is because, while the Assault does nothing to refrain monsters to attack people, since the Swordmage deals so little damage, the Shielding actually reduces most of the damage the target would deal. Conditions are important, but neither do nothing to stop them. Remember: while Shielding is an interrupt, Assault is a reaction. Which is also bad for powers that let you strike as the mark triggers (such as the AWESOME lvl 3 enc power, Transposing Lunge).

Shielding Swordmages actually run away from marked monsters to make their mark work (thus reducing the damage those monsters will cause in the encounter... while they tank the other targets with Booming Blade or dispose of minions with Arcane Reaching Sword Burst) and are the best allies of strikers (apart from a flanker, maybe...).

I've got to disagree with you on a number of points here:
1- Damage reduction seems terribly hit and miss IMO. Reducing damage to one target by 5+CON modifier isn't all that much reduction if you've actually invested into INT so that you can reliably hit stuff. This is especially true if you've marked something that can attack more than one target at a time, because this leaves you playing favourites with your party members as you try to decide who gets the damage reduction this time.

2- The utility of Aegis of Assault lies in making sure the marked creature won't be around for as long, and therefore won't be able to pump out as much damage. Concerning conditions, neither Swordmage does anything to prevent them in the short term, but by actually damaging the monster that inflicted these conditions, the assault swordmage works towards preventing further uses of these abilities in the longer term.

It is also worth mentioning that, compared with the five encounter powers that can be used with Aegis of Assault, there are only four encounter powers that can be used as part of Aegis of Shielding. Moreover, none of the paragon paths yet published works with aegis of shielding beyond granting temporary HP, which you negate most of the need for by constantly running away to trigger your Aegis.

Another argument I've heard against the assault swordmage is the greater MAD that Aegis of Assault requires, since you want to be able to hit with strength-based attacks rather than Intelligence-based attacks, but between the Feat Intelligent Blademaster (which allows melee basic attacks using INT rather than STR), and the fact that any intelligent use of Aegis of Assault will teleport your swordmage into a flanking position, you'll be hard-pressed NOT to hit with Aegis of Assault- and with the use of either a Greatsword or a Fullblade, the damage should be quite reasonable (even more so if you play a Bugbear Swordmage and super-size your weapon).

3- Concerning shielding swordmages running away to trigger their marking ability, what makes you think that assault swordmages don't do exactly the same? Mark and run tactics mean that an assault swordmage is able to do up to twice as much damage output per round- rather too useful a trick to be missing out on, don't you think?

Mando Knight
2009-01-02, 03:43 PM
Why a Greatsword (other than 1st level, where you'll want Intelligent Blademaster first)? With a single feat (WP: Bastard Sword), you can deal the same amount of damage and gain the +2 AC for 1-handing a sword, and then with clever use of the Versatile property, even gain an extra point of damage.

Fullblade might be worth it... for the High Crit property, or for excessive numbers of [W] dice. For Pre-Epic At-Wills, you're better off with a Bastard Sword again... which takes the same feat expenditure.

Mercenary Pen
2009-01-02, 04:20 PM
Why a Greatsword (other than 1st level, where you'll want Intelligent Blademaster first)? With a single feat (WP: Bastard Sword), you can deal the same amount of damage and gain the +2 AC for 1-handing a sword, and then with clever use of the Versatile property, even gain an extra point of damage.

Fullblade might be worth it... for the High Crit property, or for excessive numbers of [W] dice. For Pre-Epic At-Wills, you're better off with a Bastard Sword again... which takes the same feat expenditure.

I'm assuming a two-handed style for the extra damage, and inserted Greatsword to cover any campaign where the DM may have nixed AV, or any situation where the player felt they didn't have a feat to spare.

Nefarion Xid
2009-01-02, 04:26 PM
Bleh, I looked at the full blade as an option for my assault swordmage (which seems sub-par to shielding, but with a skimpy consitution and a few choice feats, I think I can make it pay off)...not really an attractive alternative to the bastard sword. I believe (what it looks like from the Wizards' board) you can employ the Versatile ability of a bastard sword since gripping/letting go with your off hand is a free action. You give up too much AC and you won't match the damage of a fighter with the same weapon. Although, the idea of Frost Backlash is very tempting. I can't see a Fullblade paying off until you've got Double Aegis. Or maybe if you multiclass into Fighter, have a nice Strength score and pick up some higher [W] powers.

Back to the OP...Swordmages in a Nutshell: Really cool, not very powerful.

Were I filling out a party and I had no Defender and no Controller and only had one option left? It'd probably take a swordmage over a fighter or wizard. And swordmages make a nice 5th man addition to a team and work really well as solo characters (high survivability). But, when it comes to doing the job of Defending, they really seem outpaced by the Fighter (his high damage and sticky-ness) and the Paladin.

General Advice: First - Don't leave home without a Genasi. Until Arcane Power comes out in April, there's no reason not to play a Genasi Swordmage except masochism or flavor. Second - Consider multiclassing to Wizard to really beef up your Controller sub-role. This way you can also lower the effects of MAD and just concentrate on your Intelligence.

hamishspence
2009-01-02, 04:40 PM
I'm not sure if they ever clarified whether Versatile counts as Two Handed for Power Attack and the like. I got the impression that it didn't- Two Handed means Only Two Handed, versatile gives 1 point bonus damage only.

Nefarion Xid
2009-01-02, 05:46 PM
I believe the only catch to the Versatile trick is that you're denied your full warding bonus if you're the target of an interrupt/reaction due to the two-handed attack you just made. I thought it was kind of a cheesy way to squeeze out an extra +1 damage, but it appears legit. And frankly when compared to Fighters and the love they got in Martial Power, I'll take some cheese.

Bosh
2009-01-02, 07:39 PM
From what I've seen, swordmage is balance because they do so very little damage...

Panda-s1
2009-01-03, 05:54 AM
From what I've seen, swordmage is balance because they do so very little damage...

I dunno, I have a lvl. 13 assaulting swordmage in my campaign, and he does most of the damage, despite having a rogue in the party. Though being a stormsoul genasi does help. I've threatened him with a character audit, but they're gonna face a blue dragon soon (i.e. his big, scary lightning attacks are nerfed), and I'm gonna start up a new campaign anyway, so I'll let him have fun while he can :P

KKL
2009-01-03, 07:09 AM
From what I've seen, swordmage is balance because they do so very little damage...

Swordmages deal respectable damage and by no means are terrible.

Artanis
2009-01-03, 11:19 AM
Define "respectable".