PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Killing/irritating epic-level characters at mid-level



Bulwer
2009-01-02, 08:12 PM
I'm in the mood to kill a pet NPC of the DM's, and I'm pondering how to go about it. Assuming that DM fiat is not an issue, and that I'm up against a 20-something level Sorcerer with unknown but finite abilities, how would I go about it? My advantage is the element of surprise.

My plan so far is this: Glibness right beforehand, buy a casting of Mind Blank a bit earlier, lure him out of his lair to someplace of my choosing. Whack him with a surprise dose of Dust of Sneezing and Choking out of an oil chamber (Dungeonscape), possibly lead-lined so that the weapon it's in doesn't detect as magical at all.

So now I have a prepared area containing me, an 8th-level Beguiler and a few others of similar power. I've got 5d4 rounds of stun.

Where do I go from there? Is there a way to be immune to stunning or hop out after a round that I should allow for? Is paying for a high-level anti-magic field worth it?

Eldariel
2009-01-02, 08:25 PM
There're 70 or so scenarios where you're boned either way, and 70 or so ones you'd have to specifically prepare for. The worst eventuality is that the DM has not statted the NPC out entirely (because he thinks there's no need) and then comes up with that stuff on fly.

The plan is a good one though, and short of divine ascension or Candle of Invocation, likely the best you can come up with. If you get him stunned, just coup de grace him with Scythe, forcing stupid Fort-saves and dealing stupid damage. Easiest, and damage is one of the few things epics are rarely immune to. The things that could go wrong:
-One of the buffs that grants immunity to Stun (Heart Of-line at least had one, I recall).
-Something that removes the need to breathe (likely).
-Contingency (for example "when I would be hit"-contingency would screw you up big time)
-Craft Contingent Spell
-Epic Contingencies and immunities
-Bound creatures that come to his aid if in need
-Astral Projection (that you're actually dealing with an astrally projected copy)
-A dozen things I'm not thinking of right now.


You could work past contingencies by just finding a course of action he hasn't prepared contingency for. You could probably also rid him of most non-epic buffs beforehand. Astral Projection can't enter AMF so it's simple enough to figure out; just find it out before doing anything stupid and if he's projected, call the thing off. Epic spells are something you have very little in terms of means to prepare for, as are divinations/such he's cast beforehand. In those regards, you just got to hope. If he isn't completely surprised, you're dead. Likewise, if he's least bit paranoid, you're dead. Other than that, you may have a chance.

And Anti-Magic Field's level doesn't matter. It automatically suspends all non-epic effects and it never affects epic effects, so just get a level 11 AMF; it's the cheapest. And make no mistake, without AMF there's practically no chance of success; if he didn't have any buffs, it'd be possible but bleh. Do use Detect Magic, of course, but it's not entirely reliable due to stuff like Nystul's Magic Aura.

BobVosh
2009-01-02, 09:24 PM
Does he let you watch over him as he sleeps? That is always your best bet. i don't know what you are hitting him with, but if they aren't magical just walk on up with an AMF. Then hit him with the delicious stun (important, he can cast epic spells in the AMF. It is easy as hell.)

This will be slower than a regular coup-de-grace but more assured.

Now if he doesn't trust you, can you find out where he sleeps? If so repeat. Watch out for the familiar in this case.

Prometheus
2009-01-02, 09:40 PM
If you can manage it, you best bet is to do some "testing". You get ahold of summon nature's ally or planar allies/bindings in order to offer a threatening, but not noteworthy opponent that would not be traced back to you. By observing this, hopefully you can figure out what his immunities, contingencies, and epic-level spells are. In the event of many of those, that would be the perfect opportunity to attack - when he has lost his contingencies and some of his more powerful spells.

Bulwer
2009-01-02, 10:12 PM
The NPC in question is presently (I think) unstatted, but the players are going to ask about it nicely. In addition, I can discern his Int automatically using Mindsight, so that's a start. As for Astral Projection or similar, Mindsight (I know the location and Int score of everything with one) and Earth Sense (I know number and direction of things also touching the ground) will let me find out if he's "really" there.

Is there anything else like the Dust of Sneezing that does something bad with no save allowed?

newbDM
2009-01-02, 10:14 PM
I'm in the mood to kill a pet NPC of the DM's, and I'm pondering how to go about it. Assuming that DM fiat is not an issue, and that I'm up against a 20-something level Sorcerer with unknown but finite abilities, how would I go about it? My advantage is the element of surprise.

My plan so far is this: Glibness right beforehand, buy a casting of Mind Blank a bit earlier, lure him out of his lair to someplace of my choosing. Whack him with a surprise dose of Dust of Sneezing and Choking out of an oil chamber (Dungeonscape), possibly lead-lined so that the weapon it's in doesn't detect as magical at all.

So now I have a prepared area containing me, an 8th-level Beguiler and a few others of similar power. I've got 5d4 rounds of stun.

Where do I go from there? Is there a way to be immune to stunning or hop out after a round that I should allow for? Is paying for a high-level anti-magic field worth it?


Be careful. You are playing a very dangerous game...


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/b87fed25.jpg

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-02, 10:45 PM
... I'm up against a 20-something level Sorcerer ...

{Scrubbed link} Yeah.

You may have a tiny little bit of trouble ahead of you there.

Bulwer
2009-01-02, 11:04 PM
5d4 rounds. That's 4-20 rounds to play with. Assuming we started a Candle of Invocation earlier, one of us blows one round on opening a gate and summoning something appropriate, the others to chuck him into the gate with the summoned whatever following.

Now, that's just one round. Another few could be spent stripping him naked. A couple more to try coup de gracing him with a scythe. Maybe before that, bind him with adamantine manacles?

What are some good planes that make epic spellcasters sad?

Leewei
2009-01-02, 11:19 PM
If the Sorcerer didn't breathe or had a Necklace of Adaptation, you'd be in trouble. Likewise, any familiar / allies of the Sorcerer that didn't need to breathe could slag you in annoyance. The DM might rule that, since the spell poison is used in its creation, that the dust is a poison effect subject to the standard immunities. Finally, contingent spells can be an issue.

Bulwer
2009-01-02, 11:30 PM
Oh yeah, if at Step 1 he realizes that it's a trap, we all die, Mind Blank or not. If at Step 2, I press the button and Dust him and he stands and laughs, we all die.

Perhaps it would be best to rig an alarm for when he's arriving with the liar (me), and activate the Candle earlier, so that worst-cast scenario we get a fight before we die.

Oh, and we have to get him off-plane, because he's either in charge of his personal plane or close enough that he could negate a casting of Gate. The lie is something that needs careful crafting. I cap out at 66 Bluff on a nat 20, barring getting a few other items that boost it. (Actually, 76 on a nat 20 by house rule.) How high can his Sense Motive be, anyway?

DarkGary
2009-01-02, 11:51 PM
Put him in a position where he cant move, speak, Hear. Now he cant cast.

Prometheus
2009-01-03, 12:02 AM
Actually, instead your best bet is to trick him and still have plausible deniability in the event that he is unharmed by the trick. That probably still points to a very high Bluff check, but you have to think about the circumstances in which you present the Bluff as well.

Glimbur
2009-01-03, 12:03 AM
Put him in a position where he cant move, speak, Hear. Now he cant cast.

Not quite true. If he has Still Spell and Silent Spell and Eschew Material Components, he can still cast. This is rather unlikely for a PC to have, but a pet NPC who hasn't been statted yet is rather more likely to happen to have those three.

I'd also suggest hanging a large weight from the ceiling of the site of the trap. It could be a lot of d6 of damage, or might just trip a contingency.

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 12:18 AM
Okay, new plan.

"Oh no Mister NPC, the Macguffin has fallen in the well, and for some reason you're the only one who can get it out!"

So he goes to the well, and instead of the MacGuffin, he finds a demon or whatever that's obligated to follow our orders for 17 rounds minus however long it took us to run away. It chucks some Dust of Sneezing and Choking in his face, drops a heavy weight on him, takes his stuff, ties him up, and tosses him into whatever plane he came from.

The well, or whatever, is pre-rigged with Silence, AMF, and maybe some other stuff. We've provided our pet outsider with a couple sets of manacles, the Dust, and detailed orders.

In case of failure, we blame Vecna.

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 12:31 AM
In my experience the problem is not in the killing ... the problem is keeping them dead.

Assuming the DM plays him right he will have contingency plans (as well as contingency spells). If there are 17+ level clerics about willing to True Ressurrect on demand one of his flunkies will get him True Resurrected for instance if it is possible.

PS. in a word where glibness exists all high level NPCs close their ears until they do a detect magic :) Broken spell ...

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 12:43 AM
In my experience the problem is not in the killing ... the problem is keeping them dead.

Assuming the DM plays him right he will have contingency plans (as well as contingency spells). If there are 17+ level clerics about willing to True Ressurrect on demand one of his flunkies will get him True Resurrected for instance if it is possible.

PS. in a word where glibness exists all high level NPCs close their ears until they do a detect magic :) Broken spell ...

Hmm. What are the ways to kill something dead enough to prevent True Res?

Oh, and I've already got a plan re: Glibness. Not only will I have cast it beforehand, I'll visibly cast another 3rd-level Transmutation spell to provide an excuse for that specific glowy bit. I mean, hell, PCs light up like Christmas trees under Detect Magic anyway.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-03, 12:46 AM
Excellent plan, but it has one fatal flaw, and ...


So he goes to the well,

... there it is. See, this might work great if this was a real world, but it's not; the DM controls the conversation, and the DM knows it's a trap. Once he's in the trap, comparing an actual character sheet to the challenges you're hitting him with--that'll keep fiat at bay, if you can take him by surprise and kill the sorcerer quickly--but before that?

In this scenario, you rig the trap, go visit the sorcerer's breathtaking diamond palace, stride up to the Godhead Throne, and convince him to go walk into the trap. That's, like, twenty minutes for the DM to think of some way out of that situation. Maybe he's not there. Maybe he rigs up a sanctified Eye of Vecna to his super-HD wide-screen crystal ball and takes a look at the well before he goes in; maybe he summons a paragon half-dragon Solar of Legend to deal with the situation for him; maybe he's just too busy and you'll have to wait until the trap-spells run out; maybe he sees through your wimpy mid-level bluff check with the help of aforementioned Godhead Throne. Whatever.

You've got to catch the DM by surprise, not just his pet. Assume the sorcerer is right there watching you the whole time you prepare; you'd better have a damn good explanation for why you're casting antimagic field, and every round you can shave off of the time between the DM learning what you're doing and the actual execution--treasure those seconds as if they were candied slices of Ao's brain, man.

Glimbur
2009-01-03, 12:48 AM
If a Thinauan weapon (Complete Warrior) is touching his body when he dies, it will trap his soul. Remaining problems include paying the 10K for the cheapest kind of that weapon and keeping the weapon safe from his high level buddies. Maybe if you give it to an Archdevil to keep safe...

tyckspoon
2009-01-03, 12:53 AM
Hmm. What are the ways to kill something dead enough to prevent True Res?

Oh, and I've already got a plan re: Glibness. Not only will I have cast it beforehand, I'll visibly cast another 3rd-level Transmutation spell to provide an excuse for that specific glowy bit. I mean, hell, PCs light up like Christmas trees under Detect Magic anyway.

Generally you have to do something to the soul and not just the body to foil a True Res. The classic means is to feed the corpse to a barghest, but that's only 50% successful. The other old standard is to somehow trick the target into accepting the trigger object for a Trap The Soul spell; no save, no SR, you're dead and stuck beyond Resurrection (although not beyond the the reach of any friends the Sorcerer has, so you should probably be ready to hide really well for the rest of your life.)The cheap and easy way to go about it is to perform your coup-de-grace with a thinaun weapon, which traps the souls of those you kill with it- thinaun is a special material that appeared in.. uh.. one of the demon/devil books. Somebody will probably be along to say which one shortly. Or possibly the Book of Vile Darkness (or both.) The expensive and probably ineffectual way would be to apply Soul Bind after you manage to kill him.

Edit: Hah, ninjad on the thinaun thing. WTH is a material like that doing in one of the Completes?

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 12:56 AM
YESYESYES

I'd forgotten about it, but we've got something like that somewhere. Some intelligent artifact sword that likes to eat souls. I think an ex-PC is wandering around with it or something like that. It didn't just vanish, it's around somewhere, and in-character I've already established that I'd really like it destroyed because it ate the souls of some really useful characters.

Anyway, so it goes on the pile with the Dust and manacles for our summoned thing to use after we go on a quest to retrieve it.

EDIT: Blackrazor, that's the one. Someone asked really nicely at character creation.

Lert, A.
2009-01-03, 12:58 AM
Start crying now.

Get it all out of your system so you don't look like a pansy in front of the rest of the group when you fail.

Really, it's for the best.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-03, 01:01 AM
Mind telling us why you are out to piss off your DM so royally or is this a pet NPC in the same way that the evil dragon that's out to kill you is a pet NPC?

Seriously any Sorcerer that can't get out of ANYTHING an 8th level party can through at him needs to be smacked soundly because something is screwing with his mental faculties. A Wizard with the wrong spells prepared MAYBE but a Sorcerer will have a few clasics up his sleeve and Moridkinen's Disjunction will probably be one of them and let me tell you that you don't have a snowball's chance in a Red Dragon's gullet if that goes off. Vocal only components and an Epic level Sorcerer can actually silence a ninth level spell.

All that said I am curious why you want to do this and how you thought it was a good idea :smallannoyed:

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 01:08 AM
All that said I am curious why you want to do this and how you thought it was a good idea :smallannoyed:

Now, I never said that I thought it was a good idea. As to why, the character is a smarmy prick who I just know is going to be a villain at some point anyway. Oh, and he and his pals tend to **** around our party, which is a fine IC reason to want him dead.

Oh, and you can't cast anything Stunned, which is what the Dust of Sneezing and Choking is for: no-save stunning.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-03, 01:12 AM
Seriously any Sorcerer that can't get out of ANYTHING an 8th level party can through at him needs to be smacked soundly because something is screwing with his mental faculties. A Wizard with the wrong spells prepared MAYBE but a Sorcerer will have a few clasics up his sleeve and Moridkinen's Disjunction will probably be one of them and let me tell you that you don't have a snowball's chance in a Red Dragon's gullet if that goes off. Vocal only components and an Epic level Sorcerer can actually silence a ninth level spell.

Moridkinen? I actually like that. Heh. But if he snaps Blackrazor with it... even if it works (ha ha yeah right) you know that disjuncting artifacts is a supermegadoubleplusbad idea? In fact, if he doesn't know Moridkineedle's thingy, you might want to hand him a scroll of it before you wave Blackrazor in front of his face. "Oh noes, you destroyed that sword I wanted to destroy anyway. Will save, please?"

EDIT: Seriously, you actually might want to do that. If it doesn't work, he's wasted a standard action; if it does work, he's got a real chance of spontaneous FAIL.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-03, 01:37 AM
Moridkinen? I actually like that. Heh. But if he snaps Blackrazor with it... even if it works (ha ha yeah right) you know that disjuncting artifacts is a supermegadoubleplusbad idea? In fact, if he doesn't know Moridkineedle's thingy, you might want to hand him a scroll of it before you wave Blackrazor in front of his face. "Oh noes, you destroyed that sword I wanted to destroy anyway. Will save, please?"

EDIT: Seriously, you actually might want to do that. If it doesn't work, he's wasted a standard action; if it does work, he's got a real chance of spontaneous FAIL.

2 things. One I was thinking of this as a counter to the AMF. Two what happens is determined by the DM and it only states that it's a being with an interest in the artifact. Destroying it could cause a being that LIKES said artifact being destroyed to show up.

(as for the dust if he can't avoid that and it's easy to get then he's an idiot)

Honestly if this guy does turn into a villain then you'll get your shot at him anyways but on better terms and if you just want to stop him tweaking your party then you can spend the same amount of effort, planning, and resources to make yourselves unbelievably scarce.

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 01:41 AM
Honestly if this guy does turn into a villain then you'll get your shot at him anyways but on better terms and if you just want to stop him tweaking your party then you can spend the same amount of effort, planning, and resources to make yourselves unbelievably scarce.

Okay, here's the real reason I want to kill him: It sounds like fun. If we lose, an epic NPC that's irritated at us is funner than one that toys with us. If we win, we get to go on the run from his allies, which sounds like fun.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-03, 01:46 AM
Okay, here's the real reason I want to kill him: It sounds like fun. If we lose, an epic NPC that's irritated at us is funner than one that toys with us. If we win, we get to go on the run from his allies, which sounds like fun.

see NOW I can respect your motives.

Plus those of us contributing to this cockup can start adding bits of humor to our suggestions :smallamused:

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-03, 01:46 AM
[W]hat happens is determined by the DM and it only states that it's a being with an interest in the artifact.

Nuh uh. "Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)"

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 01:56 AM
Nuh uh. "Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)"

Okay, screw my plan. Now, here's the new one: we lure him into the area of choice, Dust him, drop a huge weight on the sword, and run like hell.

If he's not dead, then we fight the guy who spend 20+ levels in a class with half BAB and d4 hit dice.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-03, 01:59 AM
Okay, screw my plan. Now, here's the new one: we lure him into the area of choice, Dust him, drop a huge weight on the sword, and run like hell.
Nah, you've got to scare him into using disjunction; only the big MD has that insta-lose clause.

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 02:03 AM
We can bust in and pretend to try and save him, then. Glibness is 10 min/level, I'll still be a brilliant liar. "Mister NPC, thank Pelor you still live! Here, have a scroll of Wossisname's Disjunction. You'll need it, since for some reason the Solar has taken all of your clothes."

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'd toss a wink at our summoned Solar or whatever, just so it knows what's up.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-03, 02:29 AM
Nah, you've got to scare him into using disjunction; only the big MD has that insta-lose clause.

Yeah and the trick is that he only has a 1% chance per caster level of canceling out the AMF OR disjoining the artifact. which means he has a less than 1/8th chance of doing both since AMF is probably the best bet for causing him to use MD.

Mostly you are probably best of doing something like Nystul's Magical Aura on a Gem and telling him that you think it's something important and need him to analyze it when in fact it's a focus for Trap the Soul.

MickJay
2009-01-03, 08:52 AM
How many of his spells have you been able to identify? Goof up badly some combat encounter and see what the NPC does; perhaps taking him by surprise after he already used up some of his spells would work better than just jumping on him while he sleeps. See what happens when he gets hit/wounded, maybe one of your party can "accidentally" hit the NPC.

If this wasn't DnD, slitting his throat or cutting his head off while he slept would work just fine, but DnD, ugh, try to do anything in a realistic manner and you're screwed...

And make sure if your DM doesn't read this forum.

Murphy80
2009-01-03, 09:33 AM
1- As a DM, I would never let you buy Dust of Sneezing and Choking.
Dust of Sneezing and Choking: This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20- foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.This implies to me that dsc is indistinguishable from da until used. IMC, dsc is an accidental creation when making da and not even the creator is aware that they made a mistake. Otherwise it is way to powerful, no save, 5d4 rounds of stun... Use common sense for a moment, why is it a cursed item if you can buy it and use it offensively? If you use this, prepare to have it used on you.

2- Stunned =/= helpless,
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
so all the advice to coup de grace him while stunned is wrong.

3- I hope you are REALLY good friends with the DM and said DM is REALLY mature. Otherwise;
success = angry dm (you killed his pet dmnpc)
fail = angry dm (you derailed his campaign).

Learnedguy
2009-01-03, 10:04 AM
Enchant rock with AMF. Hand it to sorcerer in a friendly manner.

"What's this?"
"Your doom"

Knock his teeth out.

But then again I have a remarkably low success rate with most of my battle plans:smallredface:

metagaia
2009-01-03, 10:35 AM
If you are a level 8 beguiler you must be able to cast arcane sight, so what does that tell you about him?

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 10:38 AM
Oh, and I've already got a plan re: Glibness. Not only will I have cast it beforehand, I'll visibly cast another 3rd-level Transmutation spell to provide an excuse for that specific glowy bit. I mean, hell, PCs light up like Christmas trees under Detect Magic anyway.
Greater Arcane Sight isn't fooled.

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 10:43 AM
Greater Arcane Sight isn't fooled.

Dammit. Well, at least I'd know if he was doing it.


This spell makes your eyes glow blue

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 10:47 AM
If this wasn't DnD, slitting his throat or cutting his head off while he slept would work just fine, but DnD, ugh, try to do anything in a realistic manner and you're screwed...
What you talking about? Killed plenty of high level characters in their sleep. It's just very risky, mess up one check to detect traps or disarm them and you're dead. If you are not a level 20 rogue or equivalent this plan just isn't realistic.

This is the equivalent of trying to invade Bruce Wayne's manor with millions of dollars of the most advanced security equipment available against one of the most highly prepared men in existence. Unless you are have access to as good or better technology as him luring him away into a situation you set up rather than his home base is the only realistic way to win (ie. the "realistic" equivalent of the magical situation described in this thread).

As for having to prevent resurrection, that's just part and parcel of high fantasy settings.

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 11:15 AM
What about Magic Missile? Okay, Round 1, one blast of Dust, the rest start stripping him. 1-2 rounds later, everyone takes out a high-level wand of Magic Missile and pummels him with 5d4+5 damage for up to 18 rounds. Assuming the Dust goes off, what could a naked character do to prevent it? Epic DR as an inherent property, somehow?

Flickerdart
2009-01-03, 11:23 AM
What about Magic Missile? Okay, Round 1, one blast of Dust, the rest start stripping him. 1-2 rounds later, everyone takes out a high-level wand of Magic Missile and pummels him with 5d4+5 damage for up to 18 rounds. Assuming the Dust goes off, what could a naked character do to prevent it? Epic DR as an inherent property, somehow?
The missile is still subject to Spell Resistance, which the Sorcerer could be loaded with. As a precaution, ask the DM for the Sorc's stats, "to see if you can rely on him if the going gets tough" or some stuff like that. The Bluff skill isn't only in-game, you know.

MickJay
2009-01-03, 02:18 PM
Chief problem will be with not alerting DM about your plans while learning about NPC's abilities, if DM will start to suspect something, he'll simply detail the build so that it's optimise against your attempts, and there's nothing to stop him from "cheating" while he's doing that.

@ PinkysBrain: Concerning ambush while enemy sleeps - if DM actually wants to prevent you from doing that, he'll just set off craziest contingencies the moment you touch his NPC, and all involved can just get new character sheets and start rolling. If you're planning to kill an NPC that is a designated opponent, then of course it's up to good planning (and some luck). Good comparison with a mansion.

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 03:32 PM
"While he's asleep" isn't a viable option in this case, though it's my favorite in more general CR-inappropriate encounters.

No, this gent needs to be lured out. Hiding our plans from the DM can't be that hard, unless he's reading this right now, in which case John should really not hold this against me.

There are a few other nice things that I hadn't realized were options earlier, though. Though it would tip off the DM, a small bit of questing could likely net a copy of the character's true name. That plus an artifact (more questing to find wherever that sword wound up) plus a Candle and the Dust... it's not that impossible.

Of course, that means rather a lot of questing without revealing our true goal, but it's not that hard.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-03, 03:38 PM
"surprise round" goes like this:
PC: dust of choking!
NPC: I got foresight, no surprise. Twin Celerity. Cast Meteor Swarm and Dimension Door. You die, I don't get stunned.

MickJay
2009-01-03, 03:48 PM
You may also try to force DM in some way to detail out the NPC more (for his own use) and then use the first opportunity to take a sneak peek at the character sheet ;)

But personally I'd never try doing that, I wouldn't want to end up seeing some campaign spoilers since, well, that would spoil the fun.

Bulwer
2009-01-03, 03:58 PM
"surprise round" goes like this:
PC: dust of choking!
NPC: I got foresight, no surprise. Twin Celerity. Cast Meteor Swarm and Dimension Door. You die, I don't get stunned.

Yeah, Foresight is an issue. How can you protect against all divination? Mind Blank covers anything regarding its subject. How can you seal an area?

PinkysBrain
2009-01-03, 04:02 PM
Foresight is a strange spell ... it only gives you a general idea of what to do. That's not very specific. It's a bit of a DM fiat spell, not clearly enough described to know the extent of it's power.

Eldariel
2009-01-03, 04:05 PM
You don't. However, get him into AMF before you actually do anything about him; the Foresight shouldn't warn him until he's in actual peril, so just keep your intentions clear and have some programmed effect that changes them when you're near him. Just overall hope that your DM has him ill-prepared; that way you'd have a chance.

Learnedguy
2009-01-03, 04:07 PM
Foresight is a strange spell ... it only gives you a general idea of what to do. That's not very specific. It's a bit of a DM fiat spell, not clearly enough to described to know the extent of it's power.

Or in other words, the foresight spell is worthless if the DM don't know what you guys are about to do:smallcool:

icefractal
2009-01-03, 04:38 PM
Well the way Foresight is phrased, it could possibly give you a standard action, or even a whole round's worth of warning. Even without that, the important part is that it makes you never be flatfooted. Which means you can always cast Celerity. Which means you can interrupt any action to cast a spell, such as teleporting away from the dust.

Second, there's contingencies. It's probable that he'll have one like "If I'm ever unable to act, with nearby enemies who are aware of me, Teleport back to my home base.", which would kick in as soon as you used the dust. AMF doesn't really help you, because it stops the dust from working, and eliminates your buffs as well. And he still has Epic buffs, which could be significant.

So it might be possible to catch him off guard, and there's a theoretical possibility of actually being able to attack him, but it only works if he's extremely overconfident or careless.

Curmudgeon
2009-01-03, 04:52 PM
Remember, Greater Arcane Sight + Disguise Self can get past the tell-tale eye color, and turn blue to something else.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-03, 08:45 PM
I think we are all forgetting that he will notice the moment he enters and AMF and will summarily get the frack out of there.

Arachu
2009-01-03, 08:55 PM
Once, I was playing the text game (game where everything's a letter or punctuation) Ancient Domains of Mystery. For once, instead of sucking, I was actually doing fairly well. I even, at long last after an extensive search, found an alter of some kind in a dungeon. I immediately began sacrificing food to gain my deity's favor. Then a bugbear came from the south, shouted something to his deity, and I got eaten alive by a bonfire.

So, the answer is simple; kill him using something he desires. Take an object that appears to be so powerful that he cannot pass it up, when there's a diamond hidden in part of it that is, in fact, a focus for Trap the Soul.

Set up a trap, in the object, that spews the powder of choking and sneezing when he attempts to activate the object, and then you have a choice; how to kill the sorcerer in so few turns.

I say, do what I would do. Polymorph a Large object to become a Fine object, drop it down his throat, and dismiss the polymorph to make the object the way it was again. Fun for the whole family! :belkar:

... Unless he doesn't have to breath, then I suppose you may be screwed...

But, if the NPC trusts you and/or the DM doesn't suspect you, I'll bet you could work in a way to get him to eat said object. You could sneak a 'grape' in with a bowl of grapes or a 'bit of crust' in a sandwich somehow... Well, with anything he'd actually be eating... Assuming the DM keeps track of that...

Er, I'll stick to my first idea...

MickJay
2009-01-03, 10:26 PM
The idea is good, but how are the party members to get a soul trap gem without DM knowing about it, and then hand the item with the gem to DM's NPC without DM reacting to this? DM is ultimately the source of all of the items party has and he's not likely to forget about soul trapping gem. Party members could somehow obtain the gem, then another one that looks similar and then try to hand the real gem to the NPC saying it's the normal one, but if they tried that they'd be too dumb to live anyway...

It could all work nice and well, but only if the party was not secretly plotting to kill DM's pet.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-04, 06:15 AM
Greater Arcane Sight would detect spells such as trap the soul so forget trapping him.

Bulwer
2009-01-04, 04:08 PM
Re AMF being the point when he leaves: that's what lying is for. Also, negates Greater Arcane Sight, if that's when he's using it.

What if we were to attach the focus of TTS to Blackrazor, an artifact. He collects artifacts, so we might be able to get him to actually pick it up. It's also closer to the truth, which makes it harder to Sense Motive.

1. We acquire his true name, write it down, and forget about it.
2. We acquire a focus for TTS, with no name.
3. We acquire Blackrazor, and, fearing for our lives because that sword has killed several PCs already, place it inside an Antimagic Field. We attach the focus to it.
4. The rest of the party guards the sword while I go get the NPC. Someone carves his name into the gem.
5. We arrive at the AMF with the trapped gem and give him the sword within it. Nothing happens.
6. He leaves the AMF, and is sucked into the gem. We run like hell, taking the gem, but NOT the sword, with us.

If, at any point, we need to jump right to the last part, that's what the Dust is for.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-04, 06:37 PM
Re AMF being the point when he leaves: that's what lying is for. Also, negates Greater Arcane Sight, if that's when he's using it.

What if we were to attach the focus of TTS to Blackrazor, an artifact. He collects artifacts, so we might be able to get him to actually pick it up. It's also closer to the truth, which makes it harder to Sense Motive.

1. We acquire his true name, write it down, and forget about it.
2. We acquire a focus for TTS, with no name.
3. We acquire Blackrazor, and, fearing for our lives because that sword has killed several PCs already, place it inside an Antimagic Field. We attach the focus to it.
4. The rest of the party guards the sword while I go get the NPC. Someone carves his name into the gem.
5. We arrive at the AMF with the trapped gem and give him the sword within it. Nothing happens.
6. He leaves the AMF, and is sucked into the gem. We run like hell, taking the gem, but NOT the sword, with us.

If, at any point, we need to jump right to the last part, that's what the Dust is for.

Okay NOW you're talking viable plan. The trick with any lie is to lie as little as humanly possible and if possible not at all. BTW I would suggest making sure that he fails his save to TTS and if he doesn't I would suggest staying in the AMF >.>

Bulwer
2009-01-04, 08:01 PM
That's the fun bit: no save if it's an item engraved with his name.

EDIT: Hell, it's got to be engraved when it's enspelled.

Fan
2009-01-04, 08:08 PM
That's the fun bit: no save if it's an item engraved with his name.

EDIT: Hell, it's got to be engraved when it's enspelled.

You can do it then... you just need to be sure you don't let him know you have the gem with a nystuls aura to change it to transmutation, and make it float like a Ioun stone.
Simple trick.

Bulwer
2009-01-04, 08:15 PM
It's not that, it's that we've got to dig up a 15th-level or higher Wizard who's willing to cast Trap The Soul on something with an epic Sorcerer's name on it. Of course, even if he doesn't know whose name it is, we'll have to have him Mind Blank himself as well.

Epic_Wizard
2009-01-04, 09:59 PM
It's not that, it's that we've got to dig up a 15th-level or higher Wizard who's willing to cast Trap The Soul on something with an epic Sorcerer's name on it. Of course, even if he doesn't know whose name it is, we'll have to have him Mind Blank himself as well.

If he's as big a pain as you say he is and this is a high magic environment (which it probably is if there is an epic level sorcerer interested in minor adventurers) then finding someone who is mischievous enough or simply pissed at the guy enough to do the gem for you shouldn't be that much of an issue. Again a lot of this comes down to how much you think the DM will metagame his NPC out of this.

If he's a half decent DM and your plan is sound then he'll let you get away with it provided that this NPC's loss won't throw every single plan he's made from this point on out of whack in which case you're screwed it just may not kill you.