Clone Troopers VS. the Imperial Guard.

[tribble]

Ok, let me preface this by saying: yes, I am aware that the imperial guard can keep calling in reinforcements until attrition toxifies the atmosphere from too many rotting corpses. However, I'm curious as to how long the clones from Star Wars (all 1.2 million, if i remember correctly) would be able to hold out against an assault from the imperial guard.

IMPORTANT NOTES:
No Titan Legions
No Jedi.
no orbital bombardments.

what kind of casualty ratio would the clones inflict? how long could they hold out?

discuss, i guess.

[Ravens_cry]

Heroic mooks verses slightly more advanced evil mooks without range weapons.
Heroic mooks for the win.
That is, Clone troopers.

[Innis Cabal]

The Guard, they have more forces in their military, and bring along tanks that can take down titans. Multi-Melta's and Lasguns are similar to blasters, though far stronger able to remove limbs (in the case of the Lasgun-which is standard issue). The Regiment also fights far stronger threats then Clone Troopers on a daily basis, fighting against the Tau, Tyraninds and Orks.

The Clone Troopers are sadly outmatched.

[Ravens_cry]

Ohsilly me I thought we were talking about the Star Wars Imperial Guard.
Don't play Warhammer, it's too much of a wallet hammer.

[revolver kobold]

That all depends on what Guard Legion you are talking about. Against some of the more tribal Legions, the Clone Troopers would probably come out on top.

Once you throw them against say, Death Korps, the Clone Troopers wouldn't stand a chance.

[Rutskarn]

That all depends on what Guard Legion you are talking about. Against some of the more tribal Legions, the Clone Troopers would probably come out on top.

Once you throw them against say, Death Korps, the Clone Troopers wouldn't stand a chance.

I take it that by "on top" you mean "inflicted more casualties than they sustained?"

Because if you mean, "on top of a pile of the bodies of their enemies, having completely beaten their foe" IG wins by default when the clone troopers suffocate in low earth orbit.

[Innis Cabal]

There are no Tribal Legions. All IG have standard training in their weapons and tanks.

Edit: As for "Low Earth"...they'd not even get close to Holy Terra. One would assume they live on the planet if they are the ones defending it

[Talkkno]

The Guard, they have more forces in their military, and bring along tanks that can take down titans. Multi-Melta's and Lasguns are similar to blasters, though far stronger able to remove limbs (in the case of the Lasgun-which is standard issue). The Regiment also fights far stronger threats then Clone Troopers on a daily basis, fighting against the Tau, Tyraninds and Orks.

The Clone Troopers are sadly outmatched.

CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM's Vallhean regiment, noted for being one of the better ones out there, lacks artillery , heavy armor, air support. (Caves of Ice) For a 2000 man regiment mind you. While in the Star Wars: The Clone Wars movie, a mere hostage resue situation were equipped with heavy armor and air support, and the only reason they didn't have artillery was because they needed to prevent collateral damge to resue the hostage. Mind you, even Anakin's little squad in the beginging of the movie was equipped with light artillery capable of destroying tanks.

[kpenguin]

WTF? 1.2 million troops?

THAT'S the amount of clones there are? That's not enough to hold a few planets, much less a galaxy.

[Innis Cabal]

Thats because they had Cain. You don't need tanks when your commanding officer is the actual God Emporer in disguise.

[Talkkno]

There are no Tribal Legions. All IG have standard training in their weapons and tanks.

Edit: As for "Low Earth"...they'd not even get close to Holy Terra. One would assume they live on the planet if they are the ones defending it

There are a million worlds and each one is unique unto themselves. Such as deathworlds where merely living is a considerable feat, there are hive worlds whose entire polluted surface is covered with a planet spanning city with mountain sized towers, forge worlds are dedicated to the construction of weapons, equipment and munitions for the Imperium, Penal colonies are designed to house prisoners, paradise worlds are planets with exceptional beauty and used as rewards for faithfull Imperial servents. Some planets are highly advanced the people enjoying the benefits of arcane and mystical machines of the adeptus mechanicus, others live in a feudal era, the combinations are endless. The Imperial Guard has no real stranded beyond eveyone getting a lasgun and flak armor.

[Illiterate Scribe]

There are no Tribal Legions. All IG have standard training in their weapons and tanks.

Kanak skull takers say hi.

[Talkkno]

WTF? 1.2 million troops?

THAT'S the amount of clones there are? That's not enough to hold a few planets, much less a galaxy.

Naw, thats just Kaven Traviss as her Mando-wank, there at least of trillions of clones consirding the CIS had quintillions of droids.

[Innis Cabal]

I'm aware of the set up, but the IG does have standard training, command structure, and the overall set up of an actual army (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_guard)

They may come from other places, but there are no "tribal" guardsman.

Kanak also is mostly Ogryns.

[Talkkno]

Thats because they had Cain. You don't need tanks when your commanding officer is the actual God Emporer in disguise.

Jokes aside, that shows how poorly equipped even well trained regiments are.

[NerfTW]

Ohsilly me I thought we were talking about the Star Wars Imperial Guard.
Don't play Warhammer, it's too much of a wallet hammer.

I thought it was the Shi'ar Imperial Guard from Marvel comics.

Is there some reason people don't feel the need to specify what they're talking about, or are we just expected to read your mind when a generic name is used?

[Innis Cabal]

Its hard to equip millions of regements with all the best cutting edge weapons. Which is why Lasguns are standard as they are easy to repair and do some good damage.

As stated, it has "Billions and Billons" of people within it, taken only from planets that the Imperium thinks is worthy of raising a regement. Not every planet has one.


Edit: He said no titan legions. That means to most WH40K

[Illiterate Scribe]

I'm aware of the set up, but the IG does have standard training, command structure, and the overall set up of an actual army (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_guard)

They may come from other places, but there are no "tribal" guardsman.

Kanak also is mostly Ogryns.

It has that setup, much as the limits of the Codex Astartes limit SM chapters to 1000 - doesn't stop the black templars from having more than a few dozen thousand though. Essentially, I find it hard to believe that the training is standardised, since that would make it pretty unique in the Imperium.

[Innis Cabal]

I meant standardized in so far as WH40K gets, the IG are only taken from worlds the Imperium deems worthy, making it as you said a very rare thing. Not every planet gets an IG unit.


Simply looking at the order of magnitude compared to Star Wars. An IG regiment, we are to assume its a nameless one since its not given which, can easily double the numbers of the force they are attacking.

[tribble]

I apologize for my lack of clarification, i have a very limited knowledge of the different settings. i was in fact referring to the WH40k Imp Guard, and i know that the IG could beat the clones. I'm interested in how long it would take.

[Innis Cabal]

It depends then. Which guard unit? Do they have their armoured infantry guard units? Tanks? What they have in the end will boil it down from a day of straight onslaught to months/years.

[Talkkno]

Its hard to equip millions of regements with all the best cutting edge weapons. Which is why Lasguns are standard as they are easy to repair and do some good damage.


The fact remains that means that still poorly equipped compared to Clone troopers.

[Mando Knight]

The Kill-Death-Ratio (heretofore referred to as KDR) of the clones all depends on the clone unit you're looking at. "Hero" clones like Captain Rex, Commander Cody, and Delta-38 would be able to at least hold their own, possibly even tipping the scales wherever they're fighting... though the Imperial Guard definitely would win in a pitched battle: the "Hero Clones" are all trained as commandos, specializing in strike/stealth missions. Not too familiar with 40K, though, so I don't know if the Imperial Guard contains commandos or counter-commandos capable of countering strike forces like the ARC troopers and Delta Squad in their preferred mission profiles.

Clone armor is actually pretty useful: the AT-TE has been shown to be a significant threat to CIS capital ships, and a competent pilot can turn a TX-130 fighter-tank into an army-slaying abomination. Of course, the army that they slay usually consists of B-1 Stupor Battle Droids...

Against mook-guards, Commando (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EliteMooks)/er (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorityEqualsAsskicking)-type clones could easily garner a 10-1 KDR, possibly even 30-1... but against their equals in the Guard, it may very well drop down to 1-1 or even 1-5. Again, I'm not completely sure on the quality of 40K weapons/armor/training as compared to the GAR, but given equal training/weapons/tech, they may very well end up tied.

Another note: although I'm a fan of the Mandalorians, I do disregard Traviss's ...er... travesty regarding clone numbers: I prefer to think of the mook-clone numbers as anywhere from a couple kajillion to eleventy bazillion, with elite-mook-clones anywhere from a few thousand to a couple million...

[Neon Knight]

Not too familiar with 40K, though, so I don't know if the Imperial Guard contains commandos or counter-commandos capable of countering strike forces like the ARC troopers and Delta Squad in their preferred mission profiles.


In short: Hell yes. Imperial Stormtroopers are special forces type units attached to regular Guard units for special missions. They are equipped with hellguns, vastly more powerful than your average las-gun, and carapace armor which can actually protect it's wearer from small arms fire. They have easy access to powerful weapons such as plasma guns, meltas, and other such goodies.

In addition, certain Guard units have Grenadiers, Stormtrooper grade infantry as part of the regular unit structure. to further sweeten the pot, Cadians have Kasrkin units, which are basically even more elite Stormtroopers.

So, yes, the Guard can do that.

[Talkkno]

In short: Hell yes. Imperial Stormtroopers are special forces type units attached to regular Guard units for special missions. They are equipped with hellguns, vastly more powerful than your average las-gun, and carapace armor which can actually protect it's wearer from small arms fire. They have easy access to powerful weapons such as plasma guns, meltas, and other such goodies.


That run like sissies and cut down by Nercon Pariahs show up.(Caves of Ice) And the Jurgen being threre negating the fear effect doesn't cut it, because we know Nercons have no warp presence what so ever.

[Innis Cabal]

And they have more then several "hero" class people. There are regiments of the people. Again it comes right down to the scale of the IG against the scale of the Clone's. A single full regiment is probably 2:1 in men.

Since its unstated which regiment, going with a "typical" regiment, stormtroopers probably would be accounted for, since this is a seige set up that would mean heavy weapons squads and tank's.

[Illiterate Scribe]

That run like sissies and cut down by Nercon Pariahs show up.(Caves of Ice) And the Jurgen being threre negating the fear effect doesn't cut it, because we know Nercons have no warp presence what so ever.

Necrons are pretty terrifying on their own. They've also got fear effects without warp, too - c.f. gaze of flame.

Also, BASILISKS.

Baneblades. 100 of them.

[revolver kobold]

If you go by the Third Edition Codex, Colonial Schafer's Last Chancers were pretty hard core for a spec-ops unit. They got a bit gimped in 4th, and i haven't seen if they are back in 5th or not, but if we can go by 3rd ed rules, they could hold their own against most things.

[Innis Cabal]

Those are necron pariah. The creatures that -unsettle and cause terror- in those with warp presence. The ultiamte weapon against creatures that do have warp presence. Whats your point? Mortal men run in terror when demons created to do what happened show up?

[Talkkno]

Necrons are pretty terrifying on their own. They've also got fear effects without warp, too - c.f. gaze of flame.


Then why wasn't Ciaphas Cain and Jurgen affected? Consirding that the stormtroopers were much more disciplined then they were. Consirding that they didn't even winch when of their own got grinded down to nothing from gauess flayer.

[Neon Knight]

That run like sissies and cut down by Nercon Pariahs show up.(Caves of Ice) And the Jurgen being threre negating the fear effect doesn't cut it, because we know Nercons have no warp presence what so ever.

Everyone short of Space Marines would have done the same thing. Jurgen and Ciphas get off free because if they die, the series ends.

[Innis Cabal]

Then why wasn't Ciaphas Cain and Jurgen affected? Consirding that the stormtroopers were much more disciplined then they were. Consirding that they didn't even winch when of their own got grinded down to nothing from gauess flayer.

Because their the main characters. And as Karskin pointed out, they die, the series ends.

[Talkkno]

Plot shielding has no place in a technical discussion.

[Neon Knight]

Plot shielding has no place in a technical discussion.

Since Warhammer 40k runs on the writer's whims, it has to be pointed out. The strength and effectiveness of any particular faction in Warhammer 40k varies from author to author.

[Ganurath]

Infantry Comparison:
IG primary weapon shoots a cutting beam. Depending on the strength of the full body armor Clone Troopers, it may take a fair number of hits to wound, let alone kill. Clone Trooper blasters create a small explosion at the point of impact. Even if they hit one of the few areas that IG armor actually protects, it would seem like one hit drop.

Vehicular Comparison:
Although orbital bombardments aren't allowed, air strikes are a viable option. How many IG tanks can aim UP?

[Neon Knight]

Infantry Comparison:
IG primary weapon shoots a cutting beam. Depending on the strength of the full body armor Clone Troopers, it may take a fair number of hits to wound, let alone kill. Clone Trooper blasters create a small explosion at the point of impact. Even if they hit one of the few areas that IG armor actually protects, it would seem like one hit drop.


Maybe not. The only thing flak armour is good against is shrapnel and explosions. Plus, some Guard units like the Vostroyan Firstborn have carapace armour as standard issue.

Also, seeing as how that cutting beam can cleanly cut bone, its power is not to be underestimated.

In addition, I think the Guard have a leg up in special equipment. Meltas, plasma guns, flamers, grenade launchers, as well as crew serviced heavy bolters, lascannons, autocannons, and other goodies.



Vehicular Comparison:
Although orbital bombardments aren't allowed, air strikes are a viable option. How many IG tanks can aim UP?

A few. Many IG tanks have pintle mounted heavy bolters with a fair degree of traverse. In addition, the IG have dedicated AA vehicles, and their own air units. Valkyries can deliver quite a formidable amount of ordinance.

[Innis Cabal]

Not to mention there are several guard regiments centered around air force and drop zone deplyoment.

When you start looking at the tanks, and since Super Heavies have not been disallowed as of yet, there are tanks that can take down titans with a single shot, dubbed "Titan Killers" for obvious reason.

[chiasaur11]

Then why wasn't Ciaphas Cain and Jurgen affected? Consirding that the stormtroopers were much more disciplined then they were. Consirding that they didn't even winch when of their own got grinded down to nothing from gauess flayer.

Jurgen is too dumb to run, and Cain is, well, CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM AND ENEMY OF THE FORCES OF CHAOS!

Also, any supernatural fear effects don't hit blanks like Jurgen.

[Dervag]

Thats because they had Cain. You don't need tanks when your commanding officer is the actual God Emporer in disguise.Nonono. Kasteen was their commanding officer. Cain was the morale officer. And a good thing too, as he'd be the first to tell you. Can you imagine the paperwork a Colonel-Commissar would have to fill out?

Besides, the Valhallan 296th/301st didn't have heavy armor, air support, or artillery before Cain showed up, either.

On the other hand, for an operation against a million clonetroopers, the Imperium would send many Guard regiments, including armored and artillery regiments. So while the individual regiments might not have heavy fire support, the total force would.

On the other hand, the clonetroopers have heavy weapons of their own, including AT-TE walkers that are easily a match for any Imperial vehicle short of Baneblades or Titans. And Titans are off-limits in this scenario.
________

I think it would take a lot of Guardsmen to pull this off. Clonetroopers are supposed to be above the human norm, being clones of one of the galaxy's toughest warriors. They don't have as much freakish bioenhancement as Space Marines, but they're not pushovers.

Their standard infantry blaster is designed to deal with armored battledroids, so it's probably better than a lasgun (which has almost no armor penetration, and which is hard pressed to deal with even the crude iron plate armor of Ork 'Ard Boyz). I'm not sure if the clonetrooper armor is powered, so I suspect it is inferior to Space Marine armor. But...

In Warhammer terms, I'd say a clonetrooper is going to be roughly on par with a Space Marine scout in carapace armor.

How many Imperial Guards would the Imperium need to take down a million Space Marine scouts with vehicle support?
__________


That run like sissies and cut down by Nercon Pariahs show up.(Caves of Ice) And the Jurgen being threre negating the fear effect doesn't cut it, because we know Nercons have no warp presence what so ever.Necron Pariahs are known for creating a sinister madness effect that freaks out just about every living thing that exists. I doubt that "real life" special forces would do much better against technology indistinguishable from magic.

And if you read the book, you know that the Stormtrooper unit did fairly well against the standard Necron warriors, which is not a small achievement.

[Neon Knight]

I think it would take a lot of Guardsmen to pull this off. Clonetroopers are supposed to be above the human norm, being clones of one of the galaxy's toughest warriors. They don't have as much freakish bioenhancement as Space Marines, but they're not pushovers.

Their standard infantry blaster is designed to deal with armored battledroids, so it's probably better than a lasgun (which has almost no armor penetration, and which is hard pressed to deal with even the crude iron plate armor of Ork 'Ard Boyz). I'm not sure if the clonetrooper armor is powered, so I suspect it is inferior to Space Marine armor. But...

In Warhammer terms, I'd say a clonetrooper is going to be roughly on par with a Space Marine scout in carapace armor.

How many Imperial Guards would the Imperium need to take down a million Space Marine scouts with vehicle support?


I wouldn't grade them so highly. Clone blasters don't seem any more advanced than normal Star Wars blasters, and those don't seem to have good armor penetration. Also, Ork technology works because they believe it does. Its kind of difficult to gauge its actual effectiveness.

Plus, its not like las rifle's effectiveness is set in stone. Some sources claim that las rifles can penetrate the thinnest parts of space marine armor, for instance. (I don't buy it either, but I keep seeing that line in regards to the las gun.)

I'd be more inclined to rate clone troopers as equivalent to the more elite and veteran guard units, like the Vostroyans or perhaps Stromtroopers/Grenadiers.

[Innis Cabal]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun

Thats all the info on the lasgun. It does make mention if it getting through SM armor(The vulnerable spot's in the armour).

Also as stated, Lasguns are the weakest of the weapons the Imperium has to bare, being so weak as to be calle flashlight. Their weakest weapons can -pierce- SM armor at their weaker points. Not all that weak when you look at they can blast arms off, where as standard blasters in Starwars cause burns but if they don't hit vital places your alright. Though Solo's blaster did do short work on Greedo....we've seen other blasters not fry you completly so no idea how that works really.

I'd call that a clear power difference.

[Talkkno]

I wouldn't grade them so highly. Clone blasters don't seem any more advanced than normal Star Wars blasters, and those don't seem to have good armor penetration. Also, Ork technology works because they believe it does. Its kind of difficult to gauge its actual effectiveness.
This is what's Han's blaster pistol does against concrete
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Other/DockingBay94.jpg
Keep in mind this is just a heavy blaster pistol, which is roughly on par in power with E-11 that stormtroopers use, only with less ammo. The rifles use are positively huge, comparable to a light machine gun. With a max range of 10 kilometers. With one max-power shot can blast a ½-metre crater in any ferrocrete wal. If we assume the properties of ferrocrete are halfway between those of concrete and steel, this indicates energy equivalence to roughly 2kg of TNT, or roughly eight times the charge of a modern MK3A2 concussion grenade. Not to mention Clone Trooper armor is more advanced in terms of electronics, with helmets of clones are able to provide a video gunsight on the clone trooper's helmet display. Among many other features.

[Neon Knight]

This is what's Han's blaster pistol does against concrete

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Other/DockingBay94.jpg

Keep in mind this is just a heavy blaster pistol, which is roughly on par in power with E-11 that stormtroopers use, only with less ammo. The rifles use are positively huge, comparable to a light machine gun. With a max range of 10 kilometers. With one max-power shot can blast a ½-metre crater in any ferrocrete wal. If we assume the properties of ferrocrete are halfway between those of concrete and steel, this indicates energy equivalence to roughly 2kg of TNT, or roughly eight times the charge of a modern MK3A2 concussion grenade. Not to mention Clone Trooper armor is more advanced in terms of electronics, with helmets of clones are able to provide a video gunsight on the clone trooper's helmet display. Among many other features.

The same kind of weapon which later on only lightly wounds Leia's arm.

Also, I was unaware of how advanced basic trooper armor was. I knew that Commando units (like Delta from Republic Commandos) had such features, but have never seen basic armor as being attributed with such features. Stormtrooper armor never seemed to be so advanced. A source, if I may?

Come to think of it, which Clone army are we talking about? The one in Attack of the Clones was very different from the forces in the third film.

[Innis Cabal]

Agree with Karskin, we see Han's blaster do some crazy stuff, but later, as mentioned it barely wounds an arm. Even if thats a grazing shot, thats some really crappy energy transfer.

And once more, we can't conclude anything with science since we don't even know what powers the weapons. "Gas" dosn't mean anything. What sort of "gas" is in the gun to blast wholes in concrete yet only cause burns on a person's skin. Science means nothing when you know nothing of what the weapons/atmosphere/ammo is made of.

And again EU dosn't count, unless you can show me this "Cannon Policy"

[chiasaur11]

He's Han Solo.

He killed Boba Fett blind, with his back turned.

His blaster does whatever kind of damage he freaking wants.

[Talkkno]

The same kind of weapon which later on only lightly wounds Leia's arm. The weapon was a BlastTech E-11 that wounded Leia, and she is highly force sensitive, so its not suprising it didn't really hurt her as we have seen Jedi take blaster bolts without half their torso burnt, given that they blow armored battle droids to pieces. And the weapon i am talking is the one was the one used in AOTC is the DC-15A rifle.


TAlso, I was unaware of how advanced basic trooper armor was. I knew that Commando units (like Delta from Republic Commandos) had such features, but have never seen basic armor as being attributed with such features. Stormtrooper armor never seemed to be so advanced. A source, if I may? The various visual dictionaries comment on the electronics stored in clone and stormtrooper armor. Commando armor is heavier version, able to resist up to light blaster cannons.


Come to think of it, which Clone army are we talking about? The one in Attack of the Clones was very different from the forces in the third film. If you mean the difference in armor, it is merely improved ergonomics that accounts for the difference.

[Talkkno]

Agree with Karskin, we see Han's blaster do some crazy stuff, but later, as mentioned it barely wounds an arm. Even if thats a grazing shot, thats some really crappy energy transfer.

And once more, we can't conclude anything with science since we don't even know what powers the weapons. "Gas" dosn't mean anything. What sort of "gas" is in the gun to blast wholes in concrete yet only cause burns on a person's skin. Science means nothing when you know nothing of what the weapons/atmosphere/ammo is made of.

And again EU dosn't count, unless you can show me this "Cannon Policy"
Here you go, and I already addressed your other point above.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

[Neon Knight]

The weapon was a BlastTech E-11 that wounded Leia, and she is highly force sensitive, so its not suprising it didn't really hurt her as we have seen Jedi take blaster bolts without half their torso burnt, given that they blow armored battle droids to pieces. And the weapon i am talking is the one was the one used in AOTC is the DC-15A rifle.

We have? News to me.



The various visual dictionaries comment on the electronics stored in clone and stormtrooper armor. Commando armor is heavier version, able to resist up to light blaster cannons.


The differences between Commando armor and regular armor as depicted in Republic Commandos was vast, going far beyond being a heavier version.

None of the clones ever seem to take advantage of these advanced capabilities in any source, film, video game, or novel I've read.




If you mean the difference in armor, it is merely improved ergonomics that accounts for the difference.

I distinctly remember the original AOTC being armed mostly with a long and heavy rifle, which seemed to have vanished by the time of the third movie. The weapon in AOTC was distinctly longer than the sub machine gun style weapons in the third film.

[Innis Cabal]

According to that policy, the final word is the movies. Period. The books/games/comics are "Cannon" in so far as they -can- be part of the series.

Looking at the List of Cannon Elements on Episode 4, there is no listing of a shield being around any planet. Meaning that it is not in fact cannon. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_C-canon_elements_in_the_films)

Nor is a shield even mentioned in the article on the destruction of the planet Alderaan, in the write up of the Death Star itself, or even mentioned existing in the Alderaan system (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alderaan#Non-canon_appearances)

So...ya. The policy dosn't really work when it more or less says
When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films

Once again, you can't base science off of information that isn't provided by the -original- source.

[Talkkno]

None of the clones ever seem to take advantage of these advanced capabilities in any source, film, video game, or novel I've read. Survivor Quest, Mara comments that stormtrooper threat identification system managed to pick up intruders before she could use the Force to sense her surroundings.





I distinctly remember the original AOTC being armed mostly with a long and heavy rifle, which seemed to have vanished by the time the third movie had vanished. The weapon in AOTC was distinctly longer than the sub machine gun style weapons in the third film.
Well it behooves the Republic to have different types of weaponary, I'm pretty sure the engagements the SMG version was used was more in close fighting and the Clones definitely used the longer one in the defense of the Wookie homeworld.

[Talkkno]

According to that policy, the final word is the movies. Period. The books/games/comics are "Cannon" in so far as they -can- be part of the series.

Looking at the List of Cannon Elements on Episode 4, there is no listing of a shield being around any planet. Meaning that it is not in fact cannon. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_C-canon_elements_in_the_films)

Nor is a shield even mentioned in the article on the destruction of the planet Alderaan, in the write up of the Death Star itself, or even mentioned existing in the Alderaan system (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alderaan#Non-canon_appearances)

So...ya. The policy dosn't really work when it more or less says

Once again, you can't base science off of information that isn't provided by the -original- source.
Your just trying to pick a fight with me in this thread, which what you :are saying is irreverent to the topic at hand. :smallannoyed:Besides the Canon policy states it is only non canon if it directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon. So if you keep bringing up this issue, I'm going ignore it.

[Dervag]

I wouldn't grade them so highly. Clone blasters don't seem any more advanced than normal Star Wars blasters, and those don't seem to have good armor penetration.Not that good, I agree. But they do manage to take down soldiers wearing head-to-toe hard body armor (even if not with a penetrating kill-hit). And some of the bigger ones can blow pretty respectable divots in walls and things.

What I'm getting at is that a clonetrooper blaster is most probably more powerful than the much-reviled "flashlight." I'm not sure how much more powerful. But at least a little.


Plus, its not like las rifle's effectiveness is set in stone. Some sources claim that las rifles can penetrate the thinnest parts of space marine armor, for instance. (I don't buy it either, but I keep seeing that line in regards to the las gun.)Well, on some level we do have to believe that the tabletop game bears at least a vague resemblance to in-setting "reality." And in the tabletop game, lasgun-armed riflemen can take down Space Marines.


I'd be more inclined to rate clone troopers as equivalent to the more elite and veteran guard units, like the Vostroyans or perhaps Stromtroopers/Grenadiers.If it weren't for the "superior genetic stock" issue, I'd agree.
________

Anyway, to hell with Star Wars canon policy. We've still got those holes in the masonry walls of Mos Eisley spaceport to explain.

[Neon Knight]

Not that good, I agree. But they do manage to take down soldiers wearing head-to-toe hard body armor (even if not with a penetrating kill-hit). And some of the bigger ones can blow pretty respectable divots in walls and things.

What I'm getting at is that a clonetrooper blaster is most probably more powerful than the much-reviled "flashlight." I'm not sure how much more powerful. But at least a little.


Maybe a little, true, but keep in mind that the "flashlight" is reviled in the context of a universe containing an army of genocidal robots that make the terminator look like Hello Kitty (Necrons,) super men who can be reduced to torsos and keep fighting (Space Marines of any sort,) freaky space elves who can produce warriors capable of taking down said super men (Eldar,) and Orks, who can make things faster by painting them red. Also smurfs in space with even more communism (Tau,) what is essentially a species of stomachs and mouths (Tyranids,) and of course actual demons.

The lasgun is weak because the scale of Warhammer 40k is such that even weapons of that power and caliber aren't enough. It shows how truly screwed mankind is.



Well, on some level we do have to believe that the tabletop game bears at least a vague resemblance to in-setting "reality." And in the tabletop game, lasgun-armed riflemen can take down Space Marines.


I stopped believing that around the time Gaunt and his crew took out 6 Chaos Space Marines without breaking a sweat.



If it weren't for the "superior genetic stock" issue, I'd agree.


I might concede the point if this stock was, say, Big Boss, but I haven't seen much evidence convincing me that Jango Fett was some kind of unstoppable warrior.

[Innis Cabal]

If the movie is of any point to that, Jango's gene's are in fact rather standard, its the suit that makes him what he is. Standard clone troopers seem about even with the normal driod army without fancy armor or weapons or the "hero" status.

[Talkkno]

Maybe a little, true, but keep in mind that the "flashlight" is reviled in the context of a universe containing an army of genocidal robots that make the terminator look like Hello Kitty (Necrons,) super men who can be reduced to torsos and keep fighting (Space Marines of any sort,) freaky space elves who can produce warriors capable of taking down said super men (Eldar,) and Orks, who can make things faster by painting them red. Also smurfs in space with even more communism (Tau,) what is essentially a species of stomachs and mouths (Tyranids,) and of course actual demons.

The lasgun is weak because the scale of Warhammer 40k is such that even weapons of that power and caliber aren't enough. It shows how truly screwed mankind is. Cain likes his las pistol over the choice of taking a bolt pistol. And did you not take the thing about Clone trooper rifles max power shot=2kg of TNT and a range of 10 kilometers? Whats the max range on the lasgun?






I might concede the point if this stock was, say, Big Boss, but I haven't seen much evidence convincing me that Jango Fett was some kind of unstoppable warrior.
He killed a Jedi knight with a blaster pistol. Nuff said.

[Talkkno]

I stopped believing that around the time Gaunt and his crew took out 6 Chaos Space Marines without breaking a sweat.

Clearly the Emperor on his side. Even in his deathless states, he still empowers individuals, such as those ordained as saints, giving them supernatural abilities.

[Verruckt]

Oh lord, if we get into the comparative power levels debate again this will never end. The difference twixt a las gun and a blaster is pretty moot. Earth shakers, trench lines, dominatus engines that fire missiles full of mutagenic acid, marauder bombers, baneblades, storm hammers, marcharius tanks mounting twin vulcan mega bolters spewing rocket propelled death, gorgon transports that saturate areas with mortar shells and stubber fire before vomiting forth hordes of guardsmen, Leviathan Command vehicles the size of cities that fire shells as big as your house.

And Psykers! oh the horrors psykers would wreak on those clone troops. Heads exploding, lighting that would put a sith lord to shame. And you know, with a deployment this size it's just odds that one of them is gonna fail a perils of the warp check, I'd love to see clone troops try to deal with an unbound daemon host.

Guardsmen have things that the clone troops cannot counter, and have their fair share of heroes as well. I see your Delta Squad and raise you one Commissar Yarrick on the Throne of Arrogance.

[Dervag]

I stopped believing that around the time Gaunt and his crew took out 6 Chaos Space Marines without breaking a sweat.Wait, how big was this crew?


I might concede the point if this stock was, say, Big Boss, but I haven't seen much evidence convincing me that Jango Fett was some kind of unstoppable warrior.He did manage to fight Obi-Wan Kenobi and escape alive, which is no small accomplishment. Kenobi in his prime was one of the toughest duelists in an entire galaxy, with considerable experience and the advantage of battlefield precognition.

He stopped a large charging rhinoceros-equivalent with a single blaster shot... which is impressive unless blasters are very powerful.

If you believe his non-movie backstory, Jango Fett was in fact pretty darn badass. If you only believe the movies, you still have to remember that when they went looking for Jango Fett to clone him, they were looking for the toughest non-Jedi they could find. Out of a galaxy with so many billions of sentients, that kind of search should turn up a serious fighter.

It took an equipment failure in combat with Samuel L. Jackson with supernatural powers to bring him down.
________


Oh lord, if we get into the comparative power levels debate again this will never end. The difference twixt a las gun and a blaster is pretty moot. Earth shakers, trench lines, dominatus engines that fire missiles full of mutagenic acid, marauder bombers, baneblades, storm hammers, marcharius tanks mounting twin vulcan mega bolters spewing rocket propelled death, gorgon transports that saturate areas with mortar shells and stubber fire before vomiting forth hordes of guardsmen, Leviathan Command vehicles the size of cities that fire shells as big as your house.The clones have some pretty significant firepower of their own; they aren't just limited to their blasters. Which is not to say they aren't outgunned in terms of support weapons, but it's not an easy call to make in my opinion.


And Psykers! oh the horrors psykers would wreak on those clone troops. Heads exploding, lighting that would put a sith lord to shame. And you know, with a deployment this size it's just odds that one of them is gonna fail a perils of the warp check, I'd love to see clone troops try to deal with an unbound daemon host.The psykers are indeed a problem. You're very right.

[chiasaur11]

Clearly the Emperor on his side. Even in his deathless states, he still empowers individuals, such as those ordained as saints, giving them supernatural abilities.

And since CIAPHAS CAIN hadn't shown up yet, Gaunt and co seemed as good of candidates as any.

[Talkkno]

And Psykers! oh the horrors psykers would wreak on those clone troops. Heads exploding, lighting that would put a sith lord to shame. And you know, with a deployment this size it's just odds that one of them is gonna fail a perils of the warp check, I'd love to see clone troops try to deal with an unbound daemon host.

Until there heads blow up and kill everyone in their squad or they corrupted by Chaos. So I'd argue they are much of a liability as an asset.

[Innis Cabal]

A well placed lasgun blast will deal with that, only after the fall out in the enemy ranks has occured.

[Verruckt]

Until there heads blow up and kill everyone in their squad or they corrupted by Chaos. So I'd argue they are much of a liability as an asset.

No no no, that liability is the asset. Psykers are suicide bombers on crack, even if not intentionally. They work more often then they don't, and when they don't they have the chance of becoming something with enough power to blow the torso off a warlord titan and remain utterly immune to conventional weapons fire. Seeing as how I doubt clone troopers have their blasters blessed by Imperial priests before combat.

[Talkkno]

A well placed lasgun blast will deal with that, only after the fall out in the enemy ranks has occured.

That doesn't stop the poor psyker from their heads from blowing up.

[Zenos]

What about the tactics they use? The IG will, due to their diversity, use a variety of tactics, from conscripts charging over open ground to the operations of a modern army. The clone troopers... I have not seen 3rd episode, and I am not sure of their tactics.

[Innis Cabal]

They have tactics, but they are in a defensive position where as the IG are on the offensive, a role they are well suited for.

[KnightDisciple]

This thread is amusing to me, a fan of both settings.
I'd say that edge goes to WH40K IG overall. I think the general fluff of their standard stuff edges out stormies, and their support equipment looks to be better by notable margins.

Incidentally, it's been stated before, but I'll state it again: Pariahs are specifically designed to emit weird psychic vibes that freak people out. Cain was freaking out (more than usual) until he entered Jurgens "blank field". Jurgen's a blank, which means he has literally no warp presence, and negates warp powers in a small radius. It's spelled out several times. Just FYI.

Like I said, I'd call this a close one, but personally give the edge to the IG, mainly due to greater equipment variety.

[Talkkno]

That brings a interesting question, who the hell are leading the clones? Given that the Jedi fill up most of the high level command structure...

[Talkkno]

Incidentally, it's been stated before, but I'll state it again: Pariahs are specifically designed to emit weird psychic vibes that freak people out. Cain was freaking out (more than usual) until he entered Jurgens "blank field". Jurgen's a blank, which means he has literally no warp presence, and negates warp powers in a small radius. It's spelled out several times. Just FYI. It can't be physic because Nercons have no warp presence, their whole plan to conquer everyone to seal the warp from the materium...


Like I said, I'd call this a close one, but personally give the edge to the IG, mainly due to greater equipment variety.
Clones are better equipped, given that there armor has lots of neat little gadgets ranging from NBC protection, competerisied targeting assist, and interfacing directly with the gun, among many other features. GIven that your average Guardsmen lacks NBC protection besides from a gasmask, chemicial weaponary should make short work of them in the inital stages of attack, given that they have acess to nerve gas that kills in 10 seconds.

[Innis Cabal]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pariah

Pariah's are blanks taken and turned into necrons. They do emit a field that disrupts and scares those with warp presences #$%less.

They are made from those with the Pariah Gene, and are similar to blanks (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blank)

As for clone troopers being better equiped, that dosn't help them when they are out gunned and out numbered. As stated by the OP, he is sure they will lose he just wants to know how long they will last against the full onslaught of a full section of the IG.

[Verruckt]

my money says shelled to death or killed by daemons within a couple days.

[Talkkno]

Fett's seismic charge mines are roughly 12000 megatons, which was mounted on a mere modified police partol craft, thus lying in the realms of air support, should negate any advantedge the superheavies may give.

[KnightDisciple]

Fett's seismic charge mines are roughly 12000 megatons, which was mounted on a mere modified police partol craft, thus lying in the realms of air support, should negate any advantedge the superheavies may give.

Um...those aren't really in-atmosphere weapons. Also, since we saw them only once, they seem to be more of a "quirky" weapon.
Keep in mind also they worked so well in a free-floating asteroid field, not open space. I'd imagine open plains wouldn't give nearly the same oomph either.

[Lowkey]

Um...those aren't really in-atmosphere weapons. Also, since we saw them only once, they seem to be more of a "quirky" weapon.
Keep in mind also they worked so well in a free-floating asteroid field, not open space. I'd imagine open plains wouldn't give nearly the same oomph either.Quite the opposite. Given their mechanism - a planar ring, them being primarily a planetary weapon makes far more sense. For a ship to be hurt it would have to be right in the path of the ring at close range. Drop that on a city, and you get the Daisy Cutter from heck. Look at where it was deployed from - it would be perfect to drop that as you take off to ensure a smooth get away. Plus the name is indicative. You don't hear of too much seasimic stuff if it isn't related to a planet.

As to the bit about the location where it is used impacting its yield, that is one of the most bizarre claims I've heard in a while. Yield is dictated by reacting material, which is carried within the weapon. So its environment wont matter to the yield of the mine.

[KnightDisciple]

Quite the opposite. Given their mechanism - a planar ring, them being primarily a planetary weapon makes far more sense. For a ship to be hurt it would have to be right in the path of the ring at close range. Drop that on a city, and you get the Daisy Cutter from heck. Look at where it was deployed from - it would be perfect to drop that as you take off to ensure a smooth get away. Plus the name is indicative. You don't hear of too much seasimic stuff if it isn't related to a planet.

As to the bit about the location where it is used impacting its yield, that is one of the most bizarre claims I've heard in a while. Yield is dictated by reacting material, which is carried within the weapon. So its environment wont matter to the yield of the mine.

I meant that in the context of the asteroid field generating lots of debris. In open space, it's just the initial blast ring. In the asteroid field, it generated debris, which generated debris, etc.

I'll concede the first paragraph, though.

That said, they're less than ideal; they're incredibly imprecise, if nothing else. Soon as your guys get even kind of close, they're in trouble as well. To say nothing of the potential costs of them. They're only seen once, on a highly customized bounty hunter ship. For all we know, they may be really rare or something.

[revolver kobold]

Clones are better equipped, given that there armor has lots of neat little gadgets ranging from NBC protection, competerisied targeting assist, and interfacing directly with the gun, among many other features. GIven that your average Guardsmen lacks NBC protection besides from a gasmask, chemicial weaponary should make short work of them in the inital stages of attack, given that they have acess to nerve gas that kills in 10 seconds.

That's when the Death Korps roll out, and even if they don't win, they'll just crawl underground and bomb the planet with nuclear weapons for 500 years. That'll sort those clones out.

[Lowkey]

As for clone troopers being better equiped, that dosn't help them when they are out gunned and out numbered. As stated by the OP, he is sure they will lose he just wants to know how long they will last against the full onslaught of a full section of the IG.Except they aren't outgunned or outnumbered. They have superior numbers, superior equipment, and superior infrastructure to result in them reinforcing and rearming at a faster rate. In the second Ultramarine book we are told that "a billion times a billion" tyranids lurk outside the galaxy. In the Tyranid sourcebook 5th edition we are told that they would need to increase the IG by 500% to match them. So if we assume 1to1 parity, the standing IG is 2*10^17 troops. But this doesn't account for the better use of combined arms by the IG like artillery. And most of those tyranids are gaunts and types that a Guardsman is more than a match for one on one.

Meanwhile, the Droid Army is stated to be in the quintillions, and in the Clone Wars cartoons Dooku says that the Droid Army outnumbers them 100 to 1. This puts the GAR at somewhere between 10^16 and 10^19 depending on how many quintillions Grievous commands. But this is early in the war, and we know that throughout it they kept getting reinforcements as more and more clones were produced - afterall, the number of clone tanks should follow exponential growth in terms of tanks produced. It is just a product. So total numbers are close, if not surpassed, and a clone can be made faster than a human grown and recruited. So they have numbers.

As for equipment, well we see how thick the droid plating is in AOTC when they are running through the factory. It is a few inches of solid metal. And their blasters can punch through it in a single shot. It will rip right through IG flak armor. As to Leia's arm, they didn't hit her. They hit the door and she got hit by shrapnel. Human flesh doesn't give of sparks when it gets burned, and a laser gun would cauterize when it hit and she is bleeding when Han tends to her. And you guys can chant about Baneblades all you want - go ahead and bring your land battleships. The clones will bring orbital support in to blow them up. We saw during Order 66 how they were all networked together. That is a massive edge. Compare that with the IG where everyone having commbeads is very rare. The importance of comms cannot be overstated - it was what let the Germans pull the blitzkrieg, it is what let America trash Iraq twice, it is what lets this argument take place. Linking together your soldiers is a huge benefit. Throw something at them they can't handle, and they will just call someone who can handle it.

Then there is reinforcement and resupply. The setting of WH40K is pretty much the opposite of SW. They are strictly limited in how fast they can redevelop and produce because the Ad Mech treats science like heresy and rituals like engineering. Unless they find more STCs their forgeworlds can only build so much. Contrast that with the Republic/Empire, who seeks every problem as needing a bigger technical solution. They just scale everything up until numbers or power crushes their foe. And in the case of the Death Star, they use both to literally do it.

[KnightDisciple]

Um, orbital bombardment was specifically disallowed.

[Lowkey]

That said, they're less than ideal; they're incredibly imprecise, if nothing else. Soon as your guys get even kind of close, they're in trouble as well. To say nothing of the potential costs of them. They're only seen once, on a highly customized bounty hunter ship. For all we know, they may be really rare or something.
Well yeah, that's why turbolasers are the primary weapons. They are more powerful, more focused, and have a far greater range. Besides, you don't use mega-, giga-, or teraton weaponry on a battlefield you are fighting on. You don't even really want to use kiloton, though depending on the lasers it might not be to bad. You only break out the heavy stuff when you want to trigger an extinction event in the biosphere.

[Lowkey]

Um, orbital bombardment was specifically disallowed.

Forgot that, but doesn't really change much. Instead of a ship shooting your massive tank a fighter will shoot your massive tank. They are tied into the comms system as well.

[Verruckt]

Fett's seismic charge mines are roughly 12000 megatons, which was mounted on a mere modified police partol craft, thus lying in the realms of air support, should negate any advantage the superheavies may give.

Calling Slave II a mere modified police craft is kinda like calling The Eclipse a modified star destroyer. And I sort of doubt those charges are standard equipment on anything, more likely they're the thermal detonators of space combat.

If we want to equip the clones with rare weapons, the IG have void grenades that replace pieces of terrain with gaping holes in hell itself, and bigger versions of the same.

[Innis Cabal]

They are in this set up, only numbering 1.2 mill.

The exact number of IG is unstated, being in the "Billions and Billions", which is exact as the numbers come. They are outnumbered. As stated earlier, weapons fire tends to differ, standard blasters ranging from blowing up concrete to merely burning an arm on a grazing shot.

The lasgun is the weakest of the IG weapons, probably in the whole WH uni, and they are powerful enough to take down SM's with awsome shots.

The clones in this set up are out gunned and out numbered.

If we were doing a galaxy v. galaxy combat, well...the IG would still win simply by seeing how they survive against threats the clone army would be slaughtered by, such as Daemon's/Necrons/Nids

[Closet_Skeleton]

I wouldn't grade them so highly. Clone blasters don't seem any more advanced than normal Star Wars blasters, and those don't seem to have good armor penetration.

You're forgetting all the armoured storm troopers who die in one hit from a blaster bolt.


Some sources claim that las rifles can penetrate the thinnest parts of space marine armor, for instance. (I don't buy it either, but I keep seeing that line in regards to the las gun.)

Of course it can. A guardsman can kill a space marine.

[13_CBS]

You're forgetting all the armoured storm troopers who die in one hit from a blaster bolt.


Or, really, ANYONE who gets shot and dies from a blaster bolt: Naboo guards, Clones, Stormtroopers, etc.



Someone mentioned Basilisks: it seems like having indirect-fire artillery in a battlefield without orbital artillery would be a significant advantage, providing air superiority. I don't recall ever seeing the Clone Army field indirect-fire artillery. SPHATs, perhaps, but that's it.

[Dervag]

A well placed lasgun blast will deal with that, only after the fall out in the enemy ranks has occured."It's for your own good!"
...
But if a well placed lasgun blast can deal with the psyker going crazy after the fallout in the enemy ranks has occured, why can't a well placed blaster shot deal with the psyker going crazy before the fallout in the enemy ranks has occured?

My contention is that the clones have superior firepower and armor to Imperial Guard infantry, and that they are based on a genetic template that can be described as "(very) mildly superhuman" or "absolute top human performance."

In rifle-to-rifle combat, the clonetroopers could probably account for... I dunno, two or three million Guards in a straight attritional battle. Compared to the total size of the Guard, that's pocket change, but there you have it. How long would it take for the clones to be killed? Hard to say. It depends on when you define the start of the battle. If you define it from the moment the clones arrive, it will probably take years for the Imperium to realize they're there and mobilize an army to attack them. The Imperium does not move quickly.

The actual battle will probably take at least a week. It takes time for such a large number of soldiers to die, after all. At the outset, superheavy specialized units like Baneblades probably won't be brought into combat, and it will take time to prepare and deploy those units.
_________


No no no, that liability is the asset. Psykers are suicide bombers on crack, even if not intentionally. They work more often then they don't, and when they don't they have the chance of becoming something with enough power to blow the torso off a warlord titan and remain utterly immune to conventional weapons fire. Seeing as how I doubt clone troopers have their blasters blessed by Imperial priests before combat.Say, is this based on the tabletop rules? I don't remember it from the 4th Edition rulebook or Codex: Imperial Guard. Which is all I have at the moment. That's not to say it isn't true, of course.
_________


And since CIAPHAS CAIN hadn't shown up yet, Gaunt and co seemed as good of candidates as any."And the prophet spake, saying 'Frak this, for my faith is a shield proof against your blandishments!"

[Lowkey]

They are in this set up, only numbering 1.2 mill.No, read the OP. He says all of them and then guesses at the total number.



The exact number of IG is unstated, being in the "Billions and Billions", which is exact as the numbers come. They are outnumbered.If you want to limit the IG to somewhere in 10^9 that is your prerogative, but this is a closely matched scenario in terms of numbers.


As stated earlier, weapons fire tends to differ, standard blasters ranging from blowing up concrete to merely burning an arm on a grazing shot.A claim I pointed out was wrong.


The lasgun is the weakest of the IG weapons, probably in the whole WH uni, and they are powerful enough to take down SM's with awsome shots.And the blaster rifle is the weakest weapon the clones have. Yet it is able to punch through multiple inches of armor, while yours has to hit the weak points.


The clones in this set up are out gunned and out numbered.When I claimed it I proved it. You just claim it by repeating it. Being a broken record doesn't make something right.


If we were doing a galaxy v. galaxy combat, well...the IG would still win simply by seeing how they survive against threats the clone army would be slaughtered by, such as Daemon's/Necrons/NidsCare to prove any of that, seeing as how we know nothing of numbers, industry, etc for any of those factions?

[Neon Knight]

My contention is that the clones have superior firepower and armor to Imperial Guard infantry, and that they are based on a genetic template that can be described as "(very) mildly superhuman" or "absolute top human performance."

In rifle-to-rifle combat, the clonetroopers could probably account for... I dunno, two or three million Guards in a straight attritional battle. Compared to the total size of the Guard, that's pocket change, but there you have it. How long would it take for the clones to be killed? Hard to say. It depends on when you define the start of the battle. If you define it from the moment the clones arrive, it will probably take years for the Imperium to realize they're there and mobilize an army to attack them. The Imperium does not move quickly.

Imperial Guard infantry covers a wide range of units with varying armaments, competency levels, morale, and combat styles. Vostroyans, for instance, wear carapace armor as standard issue, and have a powerful espirit de corp. Grenadiers/Stormtroopers use hellguns in addition to being well armored, and can draw upon more advanced weapons like plasma guns (And Stormtroopers tend to towards fanatical devotion to the Emperor.)

Guardsmen is a term that cover soldiers ranging from 18 year old kids that barely know one end of a gun from the other to professionals on par with the best the real world has ever produced.

And I still don't grant that clone armament and protection is significantly better than your average Guard. Blasters make people drop over dead with a little burn mark on them, whether they are armored or unarmored. That doesn't scream holes in concrete to me.

[Lowkey]

Someone mentioned Basilisks: it seems like having indirect-fire artillery in a battlefield without orbital artillery would be a significant advantage, providing air superiority. I don't recall ever seeing the Clone Army field indirect-fire artillery. SPHATs, perhaps, but that's it.
They have a lot of different kinds of arty, some LOS but plenty non LoS, ranging from rail guns seen in the original CW cartoon, light walkers laden down with missiles, light guns in the Clone Wars movie, to variations on the SPHA series carrying antiship missiles. There isn't a battlefield role unfulfilled in the GAR.

[Innis Cabal]

We've already given reasons why the Clone Troopers are out gunned in previous posts.

Also, if you could, where exactly is the driod army numbered in the "qutillions?" I don't exactly remember that number given at any point.

[Lowkey]

And I still don't grant that clone armament and protection is significantly better than your average Guard. Blasters make people drop over dead with a little burn mark on them, whether they are armored or unarmored. That doesn't scream holes in concrete to me.Without getting into a physics discussion, different material will behave differently under the same energy input. Against brick or concrete the lower rate of heat transfer and greater toughness will result in a more outwards explosion from the pressure wave (less resistance), whereas against something squishy like a body the pressure wave will propegate through it creating a hydrostatic shockwave in the target that would shred the internals, but only have a bit of a whips of steam come out the front. This is one of the few things Scifi movies get right.

[Rutskarn]

Except they aren't outgunned or outnumbered. They have superior numbers, superior equipment, and superior infrastructure to result in them reinforcing and rearming at a faster rate. In the second Ultramarine book we are told that "a billion times a billion" tyranids lurk outside the galaxy. In the Tyranid sourcebook 5th edition we are told that they would need to increase the IG by 500% to match them. So if we assume 1to1 parity, the standing IG is 2*10^17 troops. But this doesn't account for the better use of combined arms by the IG like artillery. And most of those tyranids are gaunts and types that a Guardsman is more than a match for one on one.

Meanwhile, the Droid Army is stated to be in the quintillions, and in the Clone Wars cartoons Dooku says that the Droid Army outnumbers them 100 to 1. This puts the GAR at somewhere between 10^16 and 10^19 depending on how many quintillions Grievous commands. But this is early in the war, and we know that throughout it they kept getting reinforcements as more and more clones were produced - afterall, the number of clone tanks should follow exponential growth in terms of tanks produced. It is just a product. So total numbers are close, if not surpassed, and a clone can be made faster than a human grown and recruited. So they have numbers.


All we've proven here is that the canon for both source is utterly, irreversibly, riotously inconsistent.

I'm going to go with the "Billions and Billions" factor for the IG, and the most canonical sources (read: not the clone wars cartoon) put the numbers much lower for the clone army.

Besides, a clone can be grown faster than a solider, but there aren't nearly as many clone factories as there are Imperial people factories (so to speak). Assuming neither side had any other obligations, the IG would pretty much steamroll the clones.

Even at a 50/50 fight, I think you'd find "superior equipment" hard to defend, if only because it's damn hard to get a solid set of numbers on the armor strength of fictional soldiers. It seems to change whenever nobody's looking.

[Lowkey]

We've already given reasons why the Clone Troopers are out gunned in previous posts.And I showed how that was wrong in previous posts.



Also, if you could, where exactly is the driod army numbered in the "qutillions?" I don't exactly remember that number given at any point.Multiple sources, including General Grievous: Lord of War and Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross Sections

[Neon Knight]

Without getting into a physics discussion, different material will behave differently under the same energy input. Against brick or concrete the lower rate of heat transfer and greater toughness will result in a more outwards explosion from the pressure wave (less resistance), whereas against something squishy like a body the pressure wave will propegate through it creating a hydrostatic shockwave in the target that would shred the internals, but only have a bit of a whips of steam come out the front. This is one of the few things Scifi movies get right.

Don't even start about hydrostatic shock. We can't even seem to agree if it is real or not. I've read dozens of conflicting pieces about how hydrostatic shock works, how effective it is, or if it is even a factor in most injuries.

[Rutskarn]

Don't even start about hydrostatic shock. We can't even seem to agree if it is real or not. I've read dozens of conflicting pieces about how hydrostatic shock works, how effective it is, or if it is even a factor in most injuries.

I dunno. Seems like variable canon is more or less the driving force of this argument. Might as well throw another rotted, corrupt, outcast and inconsistent piece of information on to the pile.

[Innis Cabal]

Bringing science into any of these discussions is pointless. Space in star wars somehow allows for sound, which is noted in EU and movies alike. Untill you explain -how- that works really, physics is irrelevent here.


And as Rustkan has pointed out, those numbers are changed depending on the source, where at least the numbers of the IG are set to the "Billions and Billions mark". A standard blaster as noted has preformed blasting through steel to merely burning someones arm on a grazing shot.

The weapons of Star Wars very on writers, cartoons, movies etc.

[Lowkey]

All we've proven here is that the canon for both source is utterly, irreversibly, riotously inconsistent. Actually, while it falters from time to time, SW canon is pretty consistent. They have people on staff just to ensure it is right. Wired had a big article with Leeland Chee about this a few months back.


I'm going to go with the "Billions and Billions" factor for the IG, and the most canonical sources (read: not the clone wars cartoon) put the numbers much lower for the clone army.No, most sources are deliberately vague as to the numbers of the clone army, saying only that it matches the droid army. In fact Ryan Kaufman stated that official Lucasfilm policy is to leave the number unspecified beyond that.


Besides, a clone can be grown faster than a solider, but there aren't nearly as many clone factories as there are Imperial people factories (so to speak). Assuming neither side had any other obligations, the IG would pretty much steamroll the clones.Nah. This is just math. Have a factory with two production lines - one for droids, one for clone tanks. All the droids go and build another factory with the same design. Number of droids increases exponentially, as does the number of clone tanks. So the number of clones will increase at at least the same rate (faster really, because the tanks can be re-used)

[Rutskarn]

Nah. This is just math. Have a factory with two production lines - one for droids, one for clone tanks. All the droids go and build another factory with the same design. Number of droids increases exponentially, as does the number of clone tanks. So the number of clones will increase at at least the same rate (faster really, because the tanks can be re-used)

While, mathematically, the number of human soldiers will expand exponentially.

And thus quickly and devastatingly outstrip the droids, by your logic.

[Lowkey]

Bringing science into any of these discussions is pointless. Space in star wars somehow allows for sound, which is noted in EU and movies alike. Untill you explain -how- that works really, physics is irrelevent here.It is a computer effect from the Aural sensors (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aural_sensor)



And as Rustkan has pointed out, those numbers are changed depending on the source, where at least the numbers of the IG are set to the "Billions and Billions mark". A standard blaster as noted has preformed blasting through steel to merely burning someones arm on a grazing shot.

The weapons of Star Wars very on writers, cartoons, movies etc.As do those for WH40K. The second Ultramarine novel has a gigjoule level laser (as in the same energy as a bolt of lightening) being able to down a capital ship.

[Neon Knight]

As do those for WH40K. The second Ultramarine novel has a gigjoule level laser (as in the same energy as a bolt of lightening) being able to down a capital ship.

Something I noted earlier in the thread.

[Lowkey]

While, mathematically, the number of human soldiers will expand exponentially.

And thus quickly and devastatingly outstrip the droids, by your logic.Growth time for the humans is longer, resulting in a longer doubling time. So the droids will outpace them. Both sides increase exponentially, but since the artificial side does so faster, they win.

[Rutskarn]

As do those for WH40K. The second Ultramarine novel has a gigjoule level laser (as in the same energy as a bolt of lightening) being able to down a capital ship.


That was, in fact, exactly my point. It would be extremely difficult to gauge the effectiveness of either W40K weaponry or clone weaponry.

The only argument that counts is one of numbers, and hoo boy, is that getting...troublesome.

[Oslecamo]

Altough it's really impossible to compare the blaster damage vs lasgun damage, tmy money's on the IG, for the following reasons:

-Guard has more troops and weapon variety.
-Guard has leaders wich do something resebling strategy and not just "Run straight and shoot your weapon".
-Guard has, simply, moar ammo. Lasguns can be recharged with just the sun, while Clone troopers are running out of ammo for their weapons all the time.

[Rutskarn]

-Guard has leaders which do something resebling strategy and not just "Run straight and shoot your weapon".

Let me go ahead and head off the probable response, by some party, to this:

The IG do, in fact, use lots and lots of strategy. They've gotten a very undeserved reputation as just using brute force. There are a lot of excellent IG commanders.

[Innis Cabal]

It is a computer effect from the Aural sensors (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aural_sensor).

How do they work? Proximity seems...unlikely. The fact that tie fighters cause a somewhat dopplar effect seems strange to me with a simple "sensor" those are wildly accurate and scientific effects for a simple sensor

[Rutskarn]

How do they work? Proximity seems...unlikely. The fact that tie fighters cause a somewhat dopplar effect seems strange to me with a simple "sensor" those are wildly accurate and scientific effects for a simple sensor

Aural sensor (AW-rull SEN-sor), n; see handwave

[Neon Knight]

Aural sensor (AW-rull SEN-sor), n; see handwave

It's right next to the machine that goes ping!

[Innis Cabal]

/facedesk

Awsome science there.

[Rutskarn]

It's right next to the machine that goes ping!

Most expensive machine in the whole army.

@Lowkey: No, see, at the numbers humans crank out new soldiers, it's a very slight exponential curve. You're right in saying that this won't be very quick, so let's just call it a straight progression, like the clones have.

There are more human planets than planets producing clones. A lot more.

The fact that it takes humans longer to produce new soldiers is outstripped by the sheer numbers that apply every day. Every day, there will be millions of new applicants following the millions that applied the day before. This is applied over one million colonized planets.

IG has the advantage here.

[Oslecamo]

The IG do, in fact, use lots and lots of strategy. They've gotten a very undeserved reputation as just using brute force. There are a lot of excellent IG commanders.

Yeah, but for each excellent IG comander, there's some idiotic IG comander on the other side of the galaxy who indeed wastes his soldiers like candy, and they're the ones giving the IG bad name. Thankfully they normally don't last too long, but they're used as examples of what not to do when you're a comander.

[Mando Knight]

-Guard has leaders wich do something resebling strategy and not just "Run straight and shoot your weapon".

As do the Clones... at least the Elite Mook clones. It's their highly-lauded superiority to the CIS battle droids... the ability to think. The ability to create plans, reassess those plans when things go wrong, and to adapt to the situation. If they really had this advantage over the battle droids, then they'll have the ability to create strategies and such as well. If there's a problem with Clone strategies, it's that they were taught by supercommandos: soldiers whose knowledge of tactics primarily focuses on strike teams and hit-and-run operations rather than pitched battles. If these are early Clone Wars (Episode II -ish) troops, all of their tactical leaders will probably show competence only in small groups, with larger pitched battles falling into chaos. However, later in the Clone Wars (at least by Episode III), the commanders that have survived the last three years were the ones that adapted the commando tactics to deal with the larger battles forced upon them by the droids.

[Fredthefighter]

Lets look at this, Highly trained Clones of one of the universe's greatest Bounty Hunters, with amazingly tough armour and better weaponry, not to mention that you can just clone more of them when in need.
On the other hand you have a very large bunch of rag-tag men who happen to have some nice tanks.
Not to be biased, but I think the Clone Troopers have a slight advantage.

[Rutskarn]

Lets look at this, Highly trained Clones of one of the universe's greatest Bounty Hunters, with amazingly tough armour and better weaponry, not to mention that you can just clone more of them when in need.
On the other hand you have a very large bunch of rag-tag men who happen to have some nice tanks.
Not to be biased, but I think the Clone Troopers have a slight advantage.

On the level of the individual soldier, one could argue that the clones do have an advantage.

The point is that ultimately, the clones are destroyed by sheer numbers.

[Neon Knight]

On the other hand you have a very large bunch of rag-tag men who happen to have some nice tanks.


As I've been saying all thread, that does not do the Guard justice. Elements of the guard are as every bit elite, professional, and well equipped as the clones.

[Innis Cabal]

We're going to have to keep doing this arn't we.

The IG are not always "Rag tag" sets of men with nice tanks. They fight and survive against galactic horrors the least of which can reduce a mortal man to ribbions of flesh in a matter of seconds. The clones may be highly trained, though the "one of the best bounty hunters" is an opinon as he is decapitated in rather short order.

The IG, as stated more then once in this thread, do use tactics. They have hand grenades that rifts into other realms of existance where daemons dwell...and those are the nicest things that live there, we won't go into Enslavers and the more cosmicy horror's that live in the Warp. And those are -hand grenades-. They have bigger versions of these things. They have tanks that can take down Warlord level titans in a shot or two. The IG are really not outgunned, and as stated before, their weapons recharge in the sun. Something the clones won't have, so in a war of straight attrition they are...screwed.

[hamishspence]

Amazingly tough- unless there is a significant drop between Episodes 2 and 4-6, the armour has a somewhat limited protectiveness.

I place the Clonetrooper/Stormtrooper as comparable in ooomph to the Imperial Guard Stormtrooper- carapace-grade armour- hellgun-grade blaster rifles, seems about right.

40K Guard vary a great deal, from the Rambo-esque Catachans (lampshaded with the 3rd ed character Sly Marbo) to the sniper-heavy Tanith, to the highly disciplined Mordians, to the wild headhunter Kanak Skull-Takers to the Elysian Drop Troopers.

the generic Guardmen are the Cadians though.

[Innis Cabal]

Which you know, only defend the humans strongest bastion against the Eye of Terror, a realm that would reduce most of the Starwars galaxy into literal mess's of blood, vicera and terror.

One can only begin to wonder what Big S would do if...it(?) got it's(?) hands/other limb like proxies/analogies on a Jedi

[Rutskarn]

in a war of straight attrition they are...screwed.

This. Right there.

Star Wars has one problem when warring with the Warhammer 40K civilizations. Frankly, it's outnumbered. Sheer numbers can do a number on any force, no matter how well trained.

The clones could probably inflict serious casualties on the Imperial Guard. Serious, piles-of-bodies-high-as-a-7-11 casualties. But ultimately, they'd lose, because they just don't have the resources.

[Fredthefighter]

As I've been saying all thread, that does not do the Guard justice. Elements of the guard are as every bit elite, professional, and well equipped as the clones.

Yes, elements of the guard, as opposed to all of the clones.
And the clones can just make more clones, the clone army at least matches the Imperial Guard, if you think about it, the Clones are pretty much Space Marines, and if this was Space Marines VS. the Imperial Guard, everyone would be all "Space Marines would obliterate the Imperial Guard"

[Rutskarn]

Yes, elements of the guard, as opposed to all of the clones.

Unfortunately, those elements of the guard more or less outnumber all of the clones. And they have cannon fodder support that seriously outnumbers the clones.

[Neon Knight]

Yes, elements of the guard, as opposed to all of the clones.

Elements as in entire regiments. I'm arguing that the Imperium can muster a significant body of troops that can be considered directly equivalent, and possibly better, than the clones. And they can also bring like a billion dudes worth of cannon fodder as well, just for kicks.

[Oslecamo]

40K Guard vary a great deal, from the Rambo-esque Catachans (lampshaded with the 3rd ed character Sly Marbo) to the sniper-heavy Tanith, to the highly disciplined Mordians, to the wild headhunter Kanak Skull-Takers to the Elysian Drop Troopers.

the generic Guardmen are the Cadians though.

Bah, the diference is mainly on the uniforms, in the end they're all las weapon waving humans who're always outgunned but never outnumbered

Compared to the other WH40K races this is.

Compared to the Clone troopers blasters las weapons are more or less in the same power scale. Except that las weapons can be easily recharged.

Anyway, I must suport Innis Cabal that from their historial, IG has faced and defeated much greater threats than the clone troopers.

Clone troopers-have trouble killing inocent children, mindless droids and monks.

Imperial Guard-face giant tank eating monsters, demons, space elves ninja with shurikens, communist aliens with high tech, undead robots with disintregators and orks who don't give a damn about the laws of reality. Every day. And they suceed.

So, if nothing more, the your average IG army has much more experience than your average clone trooper army.

[Innis Cabal]

And the countless clones that die because droids overrun them are all what...practice runs? The clones have the ability to be awsome, but they arn't all super soldiers that can kill countless men on their own.

Lets look at Jango. His armor and weapons do alot of his work, sure he is a good combatant, but he lost to getting his head cut off, not a hail of gunfire or old age. If he was the "Premire" bounty hunter one would think he could get away, not get enraged by the combat going beneath him and charge straight in.

The clones are not in a winning position here. They are on the defense, where as the IG are on the offense, a role they can fill rather well when they are not fighting Tyranids, Necrons, Daemons, or Orks. They are in the end fighting humans. Well trained humans but mortal humans that die just as easily as the guardmen

[chiasaur11]

I believe we've been tiptoe-ing around the most important point.

The Guard has CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

Game, set, match.

[Oslecamo]

The Guard has CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.



He's dead Jim. Still in the payroll but dead. Unfortenetely humans still die of old age no matter how many bionics and artificial limbs you give them,

[KnightDisciple]

HERESY!!!!
The physical manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emporer of Mankind can never truly die!

[WNxHasoroth]

I see your 1.2 million Clone Troopers and raise you:

Flamers, plasmaguns, meltaguns and democharges.
Needle guns, battle cannons, and battle barges.
A baneblade here, a volcano cannon there.
Ordinatus and Psykers everywhere.

Lets assume the Imperium had a moment where every order issued was received, where Warp Travel was instantaneous and without peril. Lets assume the Clone Troopers, all 1.2 million were classified as prime targets. I'd give them maybe a day at most if taken by foot.

Arguing that a Clone Trooper could kill many more his own weight in Guardsmen isn't saying much. Its not really a point in your favor when you tie your shoelaces in the morning right? After the artillery has finished, and the lasguns have fallen silent, there wouldn't be a single clone left.

Although given the Imperium's stance on cloning, they'd probably virus bomb the planet.

[Innis Cabal]

And the clones can just make more clones, the clone army at least matches the Imperial Guard, if you think about it, the Clones are pretty much Space Marines, and if this was Space Marines VS. the Imperial Guard, everyone would be all "Space Marines would obliterate the Imperial Guard"

1. Yes they can make more. But that takes time, we've seen that it does. They grow like normal people. They don't have that sort of time.

2. No the clones are not "more or less space marines". I would do a point by point show of this, but I think the simple fact that SM's are ageless two-three meter tall killing machines that can spit acid and have various other "additions" is more then enough to disprove that.

3. We'd probably be going for the SM's over the IG, your right on that. Obliterate isn't the right word. It'd not be quite on that scale, but the SM's would win, probably. The comment "i'll take 1 SM over 10 IG" stands to prove they are better then the average human. Though the above should do that more or less before you get to the end of this line. Its also another point against the "SM's and Clones are more or less the same".

[Oslecamo]

3. We'd probably be going for the SM's over the IG, your right on that. Obliterate isn't the right word. It'd not be quite on that scale, but the SM's would win, probably. The comment "i'll take 1 SM over 10 IG" stands to prove they are better then the average human. Though the above should do that more or less before you get to the end of this line. Its also another point against the "SM's and Clones are more or less the same".

There's around 1 million SM.

There's several billions IG.

10 IG= 1 SM.

So there's several thousand IG for each SM.

Wich means the IG actually crushes the SM easily by sheer numbers.

[Rutskarn]

the Clones are pretty much Space Marines

No.

Just...NO.

A clone trooper doesn't even slightly resemble the power of a Space Marine.

[Mando Knight]

Lets look at Jango. His armor and weapons do alot of his work, sure he is a good combatant, but he lost to getting his head cut off, not a hail of gunfire or old age. If he was the "Premire" bounty hunter one would think he could get away, not get enraged by the combat going beneath him and charge straight in.

Jango got killed by two things:
1. His jetpack malfunctioned, as would be expected if you were suddenly overrun by a rampaging beast twice the size of a rhinoceros. He was trying to get away when he got killed, but did not have time to notice the fact that his jetpack was ruined before he lost his head.
2. Mace Windu. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SamuelLJackson) The guy whose fighting prowess was unmatched by any of his contemporaries, who slaughtered armies of droids single-handedly, and whose lightsaber supposedly had BMF engraved on the handle. Because this party's over.

He would have survived, if he had not have encountered either the Reek (and kept his Jetpack), or Windu (and not had his head handed to Boba because of it). He dueled Obi-Wan to a draw, and he also killed a Dark Jedi as one of Tyranus's tests ten years prior. Note that Boba Fett, a supposedly pure clone of Jango Fett, survived long enough to outlive both of Han's sons. Who were Jedi. And grandsons of Anakin Skywalker.

[turkishproverb]

1. Yes they can make more. But that takes time, we've seen that it does. They grow like normal people. They don't have that sort of time.

The growth is accellerated, but not by enough for that. At least not most of the time. If they had Yalsmari, this would be a tougher fight.

[Oslecamo]

2. Mace Windu. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SamuelLJackson) The guy whose fighting prowess was unmatched by any of his contemporaries, who slaughtered armies of droids single-handedly, and whose lightsaber supposedly had BMF engraved on the handle. Because this party's over.


Don't forget he also has the lowest sense motive on the galaxy, since he can't seem to notice the guy with dark creepy eyes preparing to backstab him.

All the guardsmen need to do is get the higher ground! That always works. Except if you're fighting Obi-plotshield-Wab Kenobi.

[Innis Cabal]

Ah, didn't know it was accelerated, still the numbers don' add up to their favor in the end.

[hamishspence]

the Cadian's aren't just Planetary Defence Force- they also supply many of the basic regiments of the IG.

Putting Clone troopers as being as good as stormtroopers or Kasrkin in armour, weapons, and skills, might be a shade on the generous side, but is seems a good place to start- it is heavy armour with rigid plates, but not power armour grade- the guns are heavy guns, but not superpowerful, and the accuracy of fire is comparable to marines or hardened veterans.

So, even with all these things, they are the equals of the elites in the Guard, at their absolute best, with the basic Imperial Army sodiers in green-grey being more comparable to basic Guard.

[Dervag]

Let me go ahead and head off the probable response, by some party, to this:

The IG do, in fact, use lots and lots of strategy. They've gotten a very undeserved reputation as just using brute force. There are a lot of excellent IG commanders.The problem is that just saying "Imperial Guard" doesn't tell us whether or not one of those excellent IG commanders is present.

The scenario I'm imagining here is something like "the Imperial Guard has been dispatched to destroy a million clonetroopers occupying Agriworld 3072." Who's in charge? Where were most of those regiments drawn from? Are we talking about a force composed mainly of the best of the best of the Guard? Vostroyans? Cadian Grenadiers? I mean, for all we know Gaunt's Ghosts are in the mix, and then the clonetroopers are screwed.

But it's at least as likely, probably more so, that the bulk of the Guard forces being sent against the clonetroopers come from random backwater planets, led by donkey-minded nobles who really believe in human wave attacks. In which case they're going to mass up and try to give the clonetroopers a taste of "straight silver." And they're going to get slaughtered in large numbers, because clonetroopers are pretty good at that kind of fighting. Sure, the Guard will win, but they'll take a lot of casualties and it will take them many days of attacks to bring the clonetroopers down.
__________


How do they work? Proximity seems...unlikely. The fact that tie fighters cause a somewhat dopplar effect seems strange to me with a simple "sensor" those are wildly accurate and scientific effects for a simple sensorThe idea of rigging up an audio feedback system for gunners and pilots that's linked to the ship's radar is not such a bad one, in my opinion. Humans have several senses, and we evolved to fight while taking advantage of as many of them as possible. Programming the ship's computers to play stereo sound effects indicating the position of an enemy lets you use your ears to give you a picture of the situation even when your eye isn't on the radar screen for some reason.

We could program a computer to do that in real life.
_________


On the level of the individual soldier, one could argue that the clones do have an advantage.

The point is that ultimately, the clones are destroyed by sheer numbers.No, I don't think that's the point. Or if it is the point, it isn't much of one. It's too obvious.

A small* army of clones would obviously be destroyed fighting a whole galaxy of dedicated soldiers. Hell, even if the Imperial Guard were armed with clubs they'd probably win eventually. There are just that many of them, and I don't think anyone here really doubts it. That's so mindblowingly self-evident that it doesn't need to be argued for.

The interesting question is: how big is the clonetroopers' advantage? How long will they last? How many Guardsmen will it take to bring them down? My impression is that that's what the original post was aimed at.

*Small on the scale of a galaxy. A million soldiers is not a small army on one planet; it's negligible on the scale of a galaxy.
_________


This. Right there.

Star Wars has one problem when warring with the Warhammer 40K civilizations. Frankly, it's outnumbered.Debatable. The Star Wars Republic occupies a large part of its galaxy. And unlike the Imperium, just about all its planets have industrial-level technology. Populations on a planet like Kanak aren't going to be very high, and a lot of Guard regiments are recruited from planets that don't have the tech base to support large populations. On the other end of the scale the Imperium has city-worlds, but the Republic has city-worlds of its own.

In terms of sheer numbers of sentient beings, the Republic could probably come pretty close to the Imperium of Man. And unlike the Imperium, it has fast, safe travel between star systems. Which means that its numbers can be brought to bear much more quickly.

So in an all-out war, I wouldn't count on the Imperium being able to bring vastly superior numbers to bear on a regular basis. Of course, I don't think we're talking about such a war in the first place, but rather a localized conflict between a few million clonetroopers and whatever Guard force was called up to destroy them.
__________


Yes, elements of the guard, as opposed to all of the clones.
And the clones can just make more clones, the clone army at least matches the Imperial Guard, if you think about it, the Clones are pretty much Space Marines, and if this was Space Marines VS. the Imperial Guard, everyone would be all "Space Marines would obliterate the Imperial Guard"I wouldn't. I think the Guard would win. The Marines may get all the press in our eyes, but the Guard outnumbers them by a factor of thousands to one, and has a lot more heavy firepower to call on. One Space Marine is not a match for a regiment of Imperial Guards in direct combat.

Which is not to say that a regiment of Guards can do everything a Space Marine can do. But then, a Space Marine Dreadnought can't do everything a normal Space Marine can do, either. That doesn't mean that the normal Marine would win a deathmatch against a Dreadnought.
_________


2. No the clones are not "more or less space marines". I would do a point by point show of this, but I think the simple fact that SM's are ageless two-three meter tall killing machines that can spit acid and have various other "additions" is more then enough to disprove that.Which is why I compared them to Space Marine scouts.

Genetically, clonetroopers are better warrior stock than Joe Average, or even Joe Prettydamntough. It's flat-out fact in the setting that they went looking for the toughest fighter they could find who didn't have supernatural powers, and cloned him.

That said, they aren't ten feet tall, they aren't immune to poison, and they can't tear apart buildings with their bare hands. They aren't Space Marines. What they are, physically, is moderately enhanced humans, somewhere between the impossible freakish power of a Space Marine and the ordinary power of average human soldiers.

[Gavin Sage]

Clone Troopers versus the Imperial Guard is not a contest. They are limited force that cannot be produced that rapidly (unless your Grand Admiral Thrawn but I digress) and are discontinued after their conflict in favor of traditional forces with Storm Trooper elites mirroring the earlier clone elites. The clones may be elite from good source material, but that doesn't make them true super soldiers. And blasters and lasguns might as well be the same damn thing, so this is at most a hellguns versus lasguns argument. The Imperial Guard thus wins in general with weight of sheer numbers, while the Kamino(?) facility where all the clones come from is destroyed by a squard under Sergeant Lustig or Margot with the crucial assistance of Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, as the 597th Vahallan and maybe a few other unimportant regiments are fighting to capture the planet in question.

Now you have a slighty more interesting match up if one has just a general match up between the Imperium and the Empire. If only for the sole reason that the Empire doesn't have to travel through hell to get anywhere. The Empire still looses mind you, since the defeat of His Glorious Majesty's Divine Dominion is not only unthinkable but foul heresy, but galaxy versus galaxy at least ensures a suitably epic confrontation with the level of resources involved.

[Dervag]

Hmm... Let's compromise.

I honestly don't expect that the Galactic Empire's military would lose against the Imperium of Man, but I don't want you to shoot me for heresy.

How about the Empire conquers large stretches of the Ultima Segmentum, it looks bad for the Imperium... then the Tyranid main hive fleet shows up and the two extragalactic invaders smash each other to pieces.

[Texas_Ben]

That brings a interesting question, who the hell are leading the clones? Given that the Jedi fill up most of the high level command structure...

Saying "no jedi" is incredibly stupid for that reason, and because then they're left without units equivalent to psykers.

[Innis Cabal]

Space Marine Scouts are still space marines with all the enhacments. They are even led by a Veteran Sergeant. Clonetroopers are no where near as close to anything related to Space Marines. They are slightly better then humans in the Star Wars uni, but when looking at how humans are in WH40K we can't really say they are better then the Catachan or the Death Korp.

The IG is used to fighting creatures, as we've all been saying, that makes most if not all the threats of the SW Uni look like children.

As to them conqouring tracks of any Segmentum. How? Let alone the one held by the Ultra Marines. The Clone Army, the Empire, are threats on the scale of the Tau. Their ships don't really match the power of the Battlebargs.

But even before this. The Empire would have to deal with their Jedi who now have a warp presence and that could get icky. They would have to take and hold a planet. Which would be painfully hard if it wasn't a lynch pin in the whole defense of the empire as most standard ships can preform an Extermitus.

They'd lose. Its just how things go when your fighting an army thats been fighting a 7/8 way war for as far as time can recall, and an empire that loses planets in counting errors and don't even blink.

[Texas_Ben]

To say nothing of the potential costs of them. They're only seen once, on a highly customized bounty hunter ship. For all we know, they may be really rare or something.

Generally speaking, governments spare no expense on the ability to blow stuff up, and have a much much much larger budget than private individuals.

[Oslecamo]

Space Marine Scouts are still space marines with all the enhacments. They are even led by a Veteran Sergeant. Clonetroopers are no where near as close to anything related to Space Marines. They are slightly better then humans in the Star Wars uni, but when looking at how humans are in WH40K we can't really say they are better then the Catachan or the Death Korp.


No, scouts are space marine candidates who still didn't receive all the enanchments.

If there are veteran sergeant scouts, it's because the process of transforming an human into a space marines takes several years, but during that time the scouts are expected to fight for the chapter, so of course trough natural elimination you'll end up with a bunch of veteran scouts wich are much more skilled than the green scouts who just received their enanchments, but even those veteran sergeants still didn't receive all their enanchments needed to become a full space marine.

[Innis Cabal]

Space Marine candidates are taken at pre-teen ages. The scouts are still Space Marines, they simply don't have all the bells and whistles attached, which takes a very long time to complete.

You can find that here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine#Creation). They are also called Neophytes, but they are still Marines in the sense they've undergone the start of the transformation (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Neophyte)
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine

Details how one is made, when they are taken, etc.

Space Marine Scouts are not fully human, or they'd quickly fall behind a full compliment of the soldiers. They are -led- by a veteran sergeant Space Marine, who is there to guide them physically and spiritually.

[Oslecamo]

Space Marine Scouts are not fully human, or they'd quickly fall behind a full compliment of the soldiers. They are -led- by a veteran sergeant Space Marine, who is there to guide them physically and spiritually.

I didn't said they were fully human, but where does it ever say they're led by a sergeant space marine? Space marines wear power or terminatour armor, and veteran scout sergeants wear cheap carapace armor.

Also your link perfectly says that scouts still aren't space marines:

The creation of a Space Marine requires several methods and stages and takes a good deal of time

So the scout can only call himself a space marine when all the enanchments are done and finished.

[Talkkno]

Innis Cabal, we already had a 40k vs Empire thread, no derailing dam it! No one shown that lasguns or even hellguns are more powerful then the clone troopers rifles that are match to 2kg of TNT. All there has been hyperbole and no real calculations....

[Innis Cabal]

It says so right in the first sentance here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Scout)

Talkkno, I wasn't derailing, I was answering one of Devarg's reponses. :smallwink:

And if their blasters really had that much power they'd do more then just reduce driods to small piles of scrap.

[Talkkno]

And if their blasters really had that much power they'd do more then just reduce driods to small piles of scrap.

I said a max power shot, obviously they can adjust power levels according situation, no point in wasting more ammo then you have to.

[Talkkno]

Power of a lasgun
Inquisition War, page 550 wrote:
"The bolt impacted. It tunnelled and exploded. Flesh and bone or a vital organ erupted. It was ever this roudy way. By contrast, laspistols were silent in operation. If the aim was inaccurate, the scalpel-blade of energy soon dispersed. Whener a las-pulse met its target: such lacerating flare-up, such a scream of agony, if the victum still had the breath and lungs and heart to scream. Perhaps ten of the pilgrams had fled. A score more lay dead or dying, almost all thanks to the laspistols."

This implies a roughly head sized (or larger) volume affected, if not the whole chest. It would also have to reach between 4 and probably 6 inches (10 to 15 cm) into the chest to do anyy real damage. This will roughly translate to at least 3-5 kgs of flesh being affected. Which in turn, given the above figures already calced, yields 1.7 to 6.4 megajoules per shot.
It matches to about the same amount of power as Han's heavy blaster pistol. Which i provide calcs if necessary.

[Verruckt]

Say, is this based on the tabletop rules? I don't remember it from the 4th Edition rulebook or Codex: Imperial Guard. Which is all I have at the moment. That's not to say it isn't true, of course.


Nope, this is an incident in the third Eisenhorn book. I bring it up because table top has no rules for unbound daemon hosts, only bound ones. But again, from the same book that same daemon's bound form dismantled a squad of kasrkins (actually from cadia kasrkins) with little trouble, although its body was destroyed in the fight it just moved on to a new host.
___________



40K Guard vary a great deal, from the Rambo-esque Catachans (lampshaded with the 3rd ed character Sly Marbo) to the sniper-heavy Tanith, to the highly disciplined Mordians, to the wild headhunter Kanak Skull-Takers to the Elysian Drop Troopers.

The generic Guardsmen are the Cadians though.

Exactly, when your average generic troops come from what could be accurately described as Space Israel you know you've got some obscenely hardcore soldiers.
___________


If you think about it, the Clones are pretty much Space Marines

Hahaha no. Until you show me a clone trooper wrapped in a tank who's equipped with a rocket propelled doom rifle and a chainsaw sword (at least) along with literally hundreds of years of experience and genetic modification beyond the point of what even the most generous would call human and then you can have your space marine comparison.

I think the most apt comparison would be IG storm troopers or Fire warriors. Fire Warriors seem to be about right actually.
___________


I said a max power shot, obviously they can adjust power levels according situation, no point in wasting more ammo then you have to.

Oh god, don't get into the Power level debate again. That never gets anywhere and has no basis in movie canon. On the other hand there are canon examples for lasguns having power sliders, and at the max end of the spectrum they can de-limb a space marine under short sustained fire.

It really doesn’t matter what the comparative power levels of side arms here are. What matters is the fact that IG has stuff the clones can’t counter. Psykers, dominatus engines, super heavy artillery and tanks. Clones are down in under a week.

[Talkkno]

Oh god, don't get into the Power level debate again. That never gets anywhere and has no basis in movie canon. On the other hand there are canon examples for lasguns having power sliders, and at the max end of the spectrum they can de-limb a space marine under short sustained fire.

It really doesn’t matter what the comparative power levels of side arms here are. What matters is the fact that IG has stuff the clones can’t counter. Psykers, dominatus engines, super heavy artillery and tanks. Clones are down in under a week.

*Sigh* EU is canon unless directly condirected by the movies, hell, its even stated in the novelistaion, which by the way is G-canon.

Source: ROTJ novelization p.141

"We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and-"

[Talkkno]

I think the most apt comparison would be IG storm troopers or Fire warriors. Fire Warriors seem to be about right actually.
Oh come on, Clones aren't that crappy at close combat....:smallamused:




It really doesn’t matter what the comparative power levels of side arms here are. What matters is the fact that IG has stuff the clones can’t counter. Psykers, dominatus engines, super heavy artillery and tanks. Clones are down in under a week.
In Crimson Tears 80,000 IG equipped with everything short of Titans, and even had a company of Space Marines. Lost to basically a couple hundred of Dark Eldar equipped with only light armor and a zombified populace of a really small hive city equipped only with auto/lasguns and gerndaes. It also shows much disgerad Space Marines have for Imperial commanders, for after their aid in ebstabling a beachhead, they bascilly disregarded orders of the leading Imperial commander and went on their little witch hunt for "Chaos" Space Marines, who weren't even planning to attack the Imperials at all until they got provoked by the Crimson Fists. Most of the task force were from fairly competent regiments too, and didn't even bother to level the city before attacking.

[Verruckt]

*Sigh* EU is canon unless directly condirected by the movies, hell, its even stated in the novelistaion, which by the way is G-canon.

Source: ROTJ novelization p.141

"We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and-"

Oh hey, that's actually the first time I have ever seen anyone cite that source, do we have a scource that relates they can do the same thing with their rifles?. You can't just extrapolate down either, ship's guns tend to be turbo lasers, which if I recall my SW tech correctly operate differently than the blasters.


Oh come on, Clones aren't that crappy at close combat....:smallamused:


true true, I'm actually giving the clones a leg up there. If you want to go with real science (a benighted endeavor in this argument) Pulse rifles use the same principle as blasters do (magnetically jacketed plasma)



In Crimson Tears 80,000 IG equipped with everything short of Titans, and even had a company of Space Marines. Lost to basically a couple hundred of Dark Eldar equipped with only light armor and a zombified populace of a really small hive city equipped only with auto/lasguns and grenades. It also shows much disregard Space Marines have for Imperial commanders, for after their aid in ebstabling a beachhead, they bascilly disregarded orders of the leading Imperial commander and went on their little witch hunt for "Chaos" Space Marines, who weren't even planning to attack the Imperials at all until they got provoked by the Crimson Fists. Most of the task force were from fairly competent regiments too, and didn't even bother to level the city before attacking.

um, and that refutes what I said how? Saying "space marines are *****" doesn't take away the guard's artillery.

[Talkkno]

Oh hey, that's actually the first time I have ever seen anyone cite that source, do we have a scource that relates they can do the same thing with their rifles?. You can't just extrapolate down either, ship's guns tend to be turbo lasers, which if I recall my SW tech correctly operate differently than the blasters.

Nope, turbolasers are just really big blasters. (The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology)

[Rutskarn]

No, I don't think that's the point. Or if it is the point, it isn't much of one. It's too obvious.


This is kinda late, but I just wanted to clarify. No, apparently it wasn't too obvious. The thread shifted from a discussion of how quickly the IG win to if the IG win.

This point was directed at resolving that argument to move onto the real one.

[Talkkno]

This is kinda late, but I just wanted to clarify. No, apparently it wasn't too obvious. The thread shifted from a discussion of how quickly the IG win to if the IG win.

This point was directed at resolving that argument to move onto the real one.
I think the OP is too vague to determine a time frame as we have no idea what their fighting on.

[Rutskarn]

I think the OP is too vague to determine a time frame as we have no idea what their fighting on.

Good point. I think the OP might have abandoned thread, though.

[Innis Cabal]

We could assume they are on a setting neutral planet where the Clones have taken one of many defensive positions, as thats whats implied.

[Texas_Ben]

*Sigh* EU is canon unless directly condirected by the movies, hell, its even stated in the novelistaion, which by the way is G-canon.

Source: ROTJ novelization p.141

"We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and-"
I'll one-up you... It's mentioned in the movies as well, when the AT-ATs are blowing up the shield generators, the commander is all MAXIMUM FIREPOWER! And the bolts fired are noticeably larger and more powerful-looking than the ones it was shooting a minute ago.


Oh hey, that's actually the first time I have ever seen anyone cite that source, do we have a scource that relates they can do the same thing with their rifles?.
Episode 4 Stormtrooper: THERES ONE! SET FOR STUN! *pleeeeeew*

[Threeshades]

The Guard, they have more forces in their military, and bring along tanks that can take down titans. Multi-Melta's and Lasguns are similar to blasters, though far stronger able to remove limbs (in the case of the Lasgun-which is standard issue). The Regiment also fights far stronger threats then Clone Troopers on a daily basis, fighting against the Tau, Tyraninds and Orks.

The Clone Troopers are sadly outmatched.

I agree, except the part a Tau being a stronger threat. Or a threat at all :smalltongue:

[Gavin Sage]

You know upon further review upon thinking not about clones versus IG but about a broader conflict.....

There is a scenario in which the Empire can triumph over the Imperium:

First for the sake of argument, Hyperspace is not the Warp. Also for the sake of argument the Empire is close enough to the Imperium for the Astronomicon's light to shine throughout it, say in some amalgamated structure like the two being vertically arranged with respect to a common axial center. The overall point is for travel to be normal/possible for both forces.

Now then in direct conflict the Empire is toast. Some things might be an even match up (Sentienels and AT-STs, Stormtroopers and Stormtroopers) there is more that the Empire has no answer too. The Empire killed all the Jedi so they have no elite forces capable of matching even something as comparatively mundane as the Sisters of Battle. Nevermind Space Marines. Only tangible advantage is that AT-ATs are much more common then Titan Legions, a couple being standard on each Star Destroyer if memory serves me. But I figure massed fire from Baneblades and Leman Russes should take an AT-AT down, or fitting some Salamanders with harpoons and tow cables. And if any Titans, Space Marines, or any other of the Imperium's actual elite forces show up... those heretic will quickly found out their faithless ways are hopeless before His Glory.

Direct space battles are even more lopsided if one considers that the Imperium can brute force a Death Star with Exterminatus and able to devastate continents with their normal weaponry. Unless the Necrons, Tyranids and Chaos all decide to launch to attacks at the same time the Imperium has more then sufficient resourses to roast the Empire. However there is one critical disadvantage the Imperium has.

The Imperium is slow.

Messages take days if not weeks to travel between Astropaths. Heroes of the Imperium spend their entire careers spanning decades in only limited parts of the Galaxy. Spending months at a time in the Warp to crawl across even small parts of the vastness of space. And that assuming a warp storm doesn't render a place unreachable or an unfortunate but not terribly uncommon incident occurs in the Warp itself.

In contrast you can cross the Empire in a fairly short period of time via hyperspace. Sector fleets are known to respond within hours from different star systems. Almost every major character in SW travels the length of the galaxy in days or perhaps weeks. And hyperspace is precise enough to use jumps within a star system to specific planets, something I've seen stated as sucidal with Warp drives who can still need days once they return to the Materium. Not to mention this travel capacity is matched with real time ftl communications with no practical range limits.

So how does this equate to the Empire being able to succeed? Well while they can't win in a direct fight, a hit and run campaign against lightly held worlds would be nigh impossible to stop. Sure you'd occaisonally run across a battlefleet or hit some world like Catachan or Cadia, but most of the Imperium is lightly defended without even a proper Guard regiment to its name. Nevermind space forces, you just bring your Star Destroyers in for a week and have them level random things from orbit with turbolaser barrages. Astropaths go crying for help and the Imperium dispatches forces... pull up your Star Destroyers and move on to another planet. With the speed of hyperspace you'd keep the entire Imperium in chaos. Now this is all really just one thing though, a distraction.

The real objective for the Empire would be to locate Holy Terra. Send some probe droids in to assess the forces located there and ready three fleets. The first is massive enough to draw off portions of the Imperial forces, some Super Star Destroyers seem proper here especially if they've been wisely held in reserve for a suprise at this attack. The second fleet is smaller, the important thing though is that there are Interdictor cruisers in it with some escorts. These jump into orbit around Holy Terra itself, figure that some of the forces have been drawn off by the first fleet. The second fleet doesn't have to survive long, just take a position in range. The third fleet is the Death Star, wisely held in reserve for this moment. Its yanked out of hyperspace in position by the Interdictor crusiers of the second fleet.

The Death Star is now in unimpeded orbit around Holy Terra itself.

Now given this is not a perfect plan. It would require intellgence and coordination and a helpful dose of a commander with the balls to tell the Emperor not to send the Death Star and other heavy hitters into battle right away. Plus there's the need to figure out how reliant on one world the Imperium is. However to answer this problem I have three words: Grand Admiral Thrawn

(Hey I reduced the Imperium to countless minor Tau Empires that won't even be able to talk to one another before long without even bringing in the stupid Sun Crusher!)


Of course while this is all out and happens.....

Thrawn returns to Coruscant with victory to find that the Emperor in the mean time has been contacted by and willingly joined the forces of Chaos. The Eye of Terror spreads to cover everything. Tzeentch cackles to Daemon Prince Sidious about how he caused the Empire and Imperium to collide in the first place and how everything has worked out...

Exactly as planned. Chaos Wins Again!:smallbiggrin:

[Talkkno]

Sage, don't derail the topic, we already had a debate like this, and if u want to bring it up again, read it first before derailing it here.

[warty goblin]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that the Deathstar being in orbit around Holy Terra would be followed pretty much instantly by very small pieces of the Deathstar being in orbit around Holy Terra. See Luna's both a moon and a battlestation, and as I understand it, a seriously large portion of the Imperial Navy is in constant station around Holy Terra.

[Gavin Sage]

Sage, don't derail the topic, we already had a debate like this, and if u want to bring it up again, read it first before derailing it here.

I've only seen direct conflict scenarios being debated at best and more about lasguns compared to blasters.


I would like to take this opportunity to point out that the Deathstar being in orbit around Holy Terra would be followed pretty much instantly by very small pieces of the Deathstar being in orbit around Holy Terra. See Luna's both a moon and a battlestation, and as I understand it, a seriously large portion of the Imperial Navy is in constant station around Holy Terra.

Not if you put Terra itself between the two. Thats why I selected that particular method of bringing the Death Star in, its a strategy used by selected commander for that level of precision.

And for a super weapon the Death Star fires quite fast. We see it in real time and they barely engage a chevron considering. And I don't believe they have Exterminatus class weapons on instant standby around Terra, since well the potential for a treasonous accident in that situation is sufficient that nobody half as paranoid as the Imperium would risk it.

Course after that Empires fleets are either in the clear from sheer shock on the part of the opposing forces, or totally boned. The first distraction fleet could survive assuming they come in far enough out to draw some of the Imperium's forces away from Terra and have the battle over before they start taking fire. Second fleet is pretty much a lost cause since even crazy zealots won't all move off to punish the heretics that dare to invade their most sacred system. Still the war itself is won.

[chiasaur11]

You know upon further review upon thinking not about clones versus IG but about a broader conflict.....

There is a scenario in which the Empire can triumph over the Imperium:

First for the sake of argument, Hyperspace is not the Warp. Also for the sake of argument the Empire is close enough to the Imperium for the Astronomicon's light to shine throughout it, say in some amalgamated structure like the two being vertically arranged with respect to a common axial center. The overall point is for travel to be normal/possible for both forces.

Now then in direct conflict the Empire is toast. Some things might be an even match up (Sentienels and AT-STs, Stormtroopers and Stormtroopers) there is more that the Empire has no answer too. The Empire killed all the Jedi so they have no elite forces capable of matching even something as comparatively mundane as the Sisters of Battle. Nevermind Space Marines. Only tangible advantage is that AT-ATs are much more common then Titan Legions, a couple being standard on each Star Destroyer if memory serves me. But I figure massed fire from Baneblades and Leman Russes should take an AT-AT down, or fitting some Salamanders with harpoons and tow cables. And if any Titans, Space Marines, or any other of the Imperium's actual elite forces show up... those heretic will quickly found out their faithless ways are hopeless before His Glory.

Direct space battles are even more lopsided if one considers that the Imperium can brute force a Death Star with Exterminatus and able to devastate continents with their normal weaponry. Unless the Necrons, Tyranids and Chaos all decide to launch to attacks at the same time the Imperium has more then sufficient resourses to roast the Empire. However there is one critical disadvantage the Imperium has.

The Imperium is slow.

Messages take days if not weeks to travel between Astropaths. Heroes of the Imperium spend their entire careers spanning decades in only limited parts of the Galaxy. Spending months at a time in the Warp to crawl across even small parts of the vastness of space. And that assuming a warp storm doesn't render a place unreachable or an unfortunate but not terribly uncommon incident occurs in the Warp itself.

In contrast you can cross the Empire in a fairly short period of time via hyperspace. Sector fleets are known to respond within hours from different star systems. Almost every major character in SW travels the length of the galaxy in days or perhaps weeks. And hyperspace is precise enough to use jumps within a star system to specific planets, something I've seen stated as sucidal with Warp drives who can still need days once they return to the Materium. Not to mention this travel capacity is matched with real time ftl communications with no practical range limits.

So how does this equate to the Empire being able to succeed? Well while they can't win in a direct fight, a hit and run campaign against lightly held worlds would be nigh impossible to stop. Sure you'd occaisonally run across a battlefleet or hit some world like Catachan or Cadia, but most of the Imperium is lightly defended without even a proper Guard regiment to its name. Nevermind space forces, you just bring your Star Destroyers in for a week and have them level random things from orbit with turbolaser barrages. Astropaths go crying for help and the Imperium dispatches forces... pull up your Star Destroyers and move on to another planet. With the speed of hyperspace you'd keep the entire Imperium in chaos. Now this is all really just one thing though, a distraction.

The real objective for the Empire would be to locate Holy Terra. Send some probe droids in to assess the forces located there and ready three fleets. The first is massive enough to draw off portions of the Imperial forces, some Super Star Destroyers seem proper here especially if they've been wisely held in reserve for a suprise at this attack. The second fleet is smaller, the important thing though is that there are Interdictor cruisers in it with some escorts. These jump into orbit around Holy Terra itself, figure that some of the forces have been drawn off by the first fleet. The second fleet doesn't have to survive long, just take a position in range. The third fleet is the Death Star, wisely held in reserve for this moment. Its yanked out of hyperspace in position by the Interdictor crusiers of the second fleet.

The Death Star is now in unimpeded orbit around Holy Terra itself.

Now given this is not a perfect plan. It would require intellgence and coordination and a helpful dose of a commander with the balls to tell the Emperor not to send the Death Star and other heavy hitters into battle right away. Plus there's the need to figure out how reliant on one world the Imperium is. However to answer this problem I have three words: Grand Admiral Thrawn

(Hey I reduced the Imperium to countless minor Tau Empires that won't even be able to talk to one another before long without even bringing in the stupid Sun Crusher!)


Of course while this is all out and happens.....

Thrawn returns to Coruscant with victory to find that the Emperor in the mean time has been contacted by and willingly joined the forces of Chaos. The Eye of Terror spreads to cover everything. Tzeentch cackles to Daemon Prince Sidious about how he caused the Empire and Imperium to collide in the first place and how everything has worked out...

Exactly as planned. Chaos Wins Again!:smallbiggrin:

Then...

It turns out a certain "Cain" fellow is not as dead as reported. Again.

Hilarity ensues.

[Mr._Blinky]

And for a super weapon the Death Star fires quite fast. We see it in real time and they barely engage a chevron considering. And I don't believe they have Exterminatus class weapons on instant standby around Terra, since well the potential for a treasonous accident in that situation is sufficient that nobody half as paranoid as the Imperium would risk it.


Oh, they definitely have that much firepower around Holy Terra. Pretty much any Imperium capital ship has enough power to do an Exterminatus, if not through specialized equipment then just through sheer brute force. That makes at least hundreds of Exterminatus-capable ships in orbit around Terra at any one time. They just don't let you park your Exterminatus-capable ship there unless they know you won't turn traitor or that they can blow the crap out of you before you can get more than a couple of shots off.

Besides, I'm fairly sure Terra itself is perfectly capable of withstanding an Exterminatus-level attack for at least long enough for the home-fleet to take out the threat. So unless a whole quarter of the fleet or so turns at once and without warning, the Emperor at least is going to be safe.

[warty goblin]

Also the Imperium has teleporting boarding parties. Around Holy Terra I'll lay odds these are teleporting Adeptus Costodes. That's going to be really well for the stormtroopers...

[KnightDisciple]

In Crimson Tears 80,000 IG equipped with everything short of Titans, and even had a company of Space Marines. Lost to basically a couple hundred of Dark Eldar equipped with only light armor and a zombified populace of a really small hive city equipped only with auto/lasguns and gerndaes. It also shows much disgerad Space Marines have for Imperial commanders, for after their aid in ebstabling a beachhead, they bascilly disregarded orders of the leading Imperial commander and went on their little witch hunt for "Chaos" Space Marines, who weren't even planning to attack the Imperials at all until they got provoked by the Crimson Fists. Most of the task force were from fairly competent regiments too, and didn't even bother to level the city before attacking.

I'm....not sure what you're trying to argue here. Competence levels of respective commanders? (I mean, it's not like elite stormtrooper legions can lose to teddy bears...)
Ability to handle an enemy? I mean, even a "really small" hive city will likely have population in the millions. As for the Chaos Marines and Dark Eldar...well, that's pretty much negation of the SM force. On not leveling the city...maybe they wanted it somewhat intact? Of course, that doubly bones the IG force, since they're facing a numerically superior force on the enemy home ground. The enemy likely doesn't worry about morale, the Guard do. And if most/all of your dudes are in the city, you can't really level it anymore, barring a last ditch pullout attempt.

Basically...what was your point in this anecdote? Because I'm not sure myself.

[Innis Cabal]

And for a super weapon the Death Star fires quite fast. We see it in real time and they barely engage a chevron considering. And I don't believe they have Exterminatus class weapons on instant standby around Terra, since well the potential for a treasonous accident in that situation is sufficient that nobody half as paranoid as the Imperium would risk it..

All this would be great, if we were talking about the Empire. We arn't. There is no death star in this Vs thread as its not even been built yet.

Though, for the sake of this insane theory I will say a few things.

Yes. Holy Terra has their most powerful weapons in and around Holy Terra. Forgetting the moon and Mars, you have the bulk of the most ancient and powerful starships that the Imperium has ever built. After that you have the planet itself, which in and of itself has more people living on it then probably the Death Star in one city.

As mentioned, if that dosn't bone them, teleporting SM's with the rightous might of the Emporer himself will be boarding swiftly, and SM's are scary scary things. The Adeptus Custodi are even scarier, and are (If rumors are true) led by a Primarch, a person so powerful they go toe to toe with Daemon Lords and win, not all the time but its a power scale thing.

The whole of the Empire would be reduced to slag and Terra would get new resources.

Lets take a look at the hyperspace thing now. They have no charts of the WH40K universe. How are they going to teleport to Holy Terra? If they take the Warp, they are so severely screwed as to make this whole side argument irrelevent. If they somehow just manage to hit the proverbial big red button and manage to get to Holy Terra by some insane luck, they will be body deep in one of the most defended empires in the whole of WH40K. Again. Screwed. Severely.


On the actual topic.

Threeshades. The Tau are powerful. So powerful. They want to be your friend. Don't you want to be their friend? Its for the Greater Good. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavin Sage]

Oh, they definitely have that much firepower around Holy Terra. Pretty much any Imperium capital ship has enough power to do an Exterminatus, if not through specialized equipment then just through sheer brute force. That makes at least hundreds of Exterminatus-capable ships in orbit around Terra at any one time. They just don't let you park your Exterminatus-capable ship there unless they know you won't turn traitor or that they can blow the crap out of you before you can get more than a couple of shots off.

Besides, I'm fairly sure Terra itself is perfectly capable of withstanding an Exterminatus-level attack for at least long enough for the home-fleet to take out the threat. So unless a whole quarter of the fleet or so turns at once and without warning, the Emperor at least is going to be safe.

Right time to get more technical. Exterminatus is an event/order given by the Inquisition for the most dire of situations to exterminate all life on a planet. This can include say virus bombing which would be meaningless against a metal hull and compartmentalization. The the very excellent Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exterminatus) lists three methods. Only one would work on the Death Star, Cyclonic Torpedoes. Which are noted as being launch by special Inquisition ships, and are designed to penetrate a planets core with multiple nukes setting off tectonic destruction. All well and good but this is not a weapon there is a single reason to have in orbit around the beating heart of the Imperium. There is no useful purpose it could serve, only disastrous possibilities. As for trust, who is more trustworthy then the God Emperor's favored sons the Primarchs led by Warmaster Horus. No one that's who.

Now certainly the ships of the Imperium are capable of brute forcing an Exterminatus, as merely killing all life on a planet. However this is not a valid option with the Death Star because you really have to blow the whole thing up. The second one had the bloody Executor thrown into it and survived. Okay sufficient bombardment on the main weapon might disable it, but you would have to know to do that and would still need a considerable amount of time to preform that. The Imperium doesn't have that kinda time. I've timed the firing of the Death Star at Alderaan to around thirty seconds from Tarkin giving the order. Thirty seconds to kill a world. The Imperium will never get enough power to bear in time, or at least focused sufficiently.

And no Terra cannot withstand the superlaser designed to crack it open and shatter the planet into pieces.

[Talkkno]

Can't we just make a new thread? Since the OP hasn't really participated at all.

[Rutskarn]

Don't mean to be a party pooper, but...

Well, let's look deep within our hearts, here.

Do we really want another thread?

Are we going to gain any ground?

[Innis Cabal]

:smallsigh:

Where do you think those "special" ships the inquisition has are based? Holy Terra.

Where do you think the strongest defenses in the whole Imperium are? Holy Terra.

The Planet took siege from the greatest War Master and Favored Son of the God Emporer and survived.

The Death Star, once again, isn't even in this discussion. Once again, it wouldn't have a way of getting to Holy Terra, let alone live long enough to fire off its laser. You are forgetting every other weapon system of the Imperial Navy, which would make short work of the thing. Not only that, a whole foundation of SM's could teleport into the Death Star and start wrecking havok. Holy Terra wouldn't just sit around with their pants down when a threat somehow randomly appears in the space over their most sacred planet.

Edit: No, we won't gain any ground in this debate really. We had a good one going with the Clone V. IG and I for one would love to keep it going.

[konfeta]

Lexicanum articles aren't complete.

IIRC, Lance weapons are perfectly capable of ruining a planet under repeated fire, and defense of Terra is saturated with them.

[Innis Cabal]

They actually preform very similar to the Death Star laser. Not nearly on the same power scale but similar "mechanics" are at play.

[Gavin Sage]

*snipped*

Why fight an enemy who can do that when you can blow up the planet instead. The whole stragegy is predicated on the notion of not fighting directly for exactly that reason.

Ground force are meaningless if you don't wage occupation wars for example. Ships of any power level can be managed/avoid with the vastness of space itself, even within a solar system there will be vast unoccupied areas and I've seen the Imperiums ships take weeks to coast through them


Lets take a look at the hyperspace thing now. They have no charts of the WH40K universe. How are they going to teleport to Holy Terra? If they take the Warp, they are so severely screwed as to make this whole side argument irrelevent. If they somehow just manage to hit the proverbial big red button and manage to get to Holy Terra by some insane luck, they will be body deep in one of the most defended empires in the whole of WH40K. Again. Screwed. Severely.

Addressed this with an entire lead in campaign before the main attack. The purpose is to map the Imperium and locate Holy Terra. While presumably the Imperium is seeking to map the Empire to conquer it. Only the Imperium is a place where this could take a century to organize, much less the time comparative time it would take to accomplish. While having to respond to an offensive campaign being waged by an enemy that is doing the same thing, only with instant communication and travel methods that are not only safer but orders of magnitude faster.

The Imperium won't loose much where it already has heavy forces true, but it can't afford to ignore heretics attacking random worlds either. The toughest nut is indeed Terra, but no amount of force ensures automatic victory. The Necrons pulled off their raid on Mars not simply on there invinciblity, but because raids are almost impossible to perfectly defend against. Suicidal raids triply so. Only hyperspace allows the Empire's raid to include a planet killer weapon that you only need in position and able to fire for a minute.

Its not perfect, or garunteed, but its plausible against a foe that direct meat grinding is meaningless against.


The Death Star, once again, isn't even in this discussion. Once again, it wouldn't have a way of getting to Holy Terra, let alone live long enough to fire off its laser. You are forgetting every other weapon system of the Imperial Navy, which would make short work of the thing. Not only that, a whole foundation of SM's could teleport into the Death Star and start wrecking havok. Holy Terra wouldn't just sit around with their pants down when a threat somehow randomly appears in the space over their most sacred planet.

Planetary positions are easy to map and do not change. Thus are predictable. Hyperspace allows you to come out of nowhere right on top of the planet. You have ships coming out of hyperspace and having fighters close on planets with minutes. This solution doesn't even need that much time. Its a very simple plan that works so long as the final element can fire its weapon at a target that it can't miss.

First and biggest fleet to draw attention, preferably farthest out to get the enemy think that direction and draw off forces. This is just a question of distance really, far enough out that the Imperium has to move to attack. And lets face it restraint is not there defining feature. Even if the defending fleet stays close simply drawing focus will help because it will slow reaction to something new happening. All the other ships aren't really nessecary for what amounts to a high speed strafing run by the Death Star. Drop out of nowhere, fire, you win. Preventing an enemy from conquer a planet, easy, preventing an enemy from engaging in an a protracted battle, doable, preventing your enemy from taking a single shot... nigh impossible to ensure

"Short work" is rather insufficient for the thirty seconds needed for victory. The Death Star is the size of a moon, its not going down in one hit from captial ship weapons. Even nuclear class exsplosions from lance batteries will need time to work. Even more true for teleporting on boarding parties, if that would even nessecarily work through deflector shields and if such instant response parties aren't already deploying on the ships that got there first. The Death Star only needs to fire once to destroy the Imperium as a meaningful spacial power. Only a planet is a lot bigger then a thermal exhaust port.

[tribble]

I "abandoned" the thread because i had nothing to say. if i thought I knew the answer to the question, I wouldnt bother to ask because that is, in my opinion, trolling.

on the "the empire destroys holy terra" stuff...HOLY THREAD DERAILMENT BATMAN!:smallbiggrin:

I'm failing to stave off the urge to comment that a certain mandolorian with a rank of-I believe- colonel- threatened to reduce the surface of a world to molten slag and an alien who had been infiltrating the logistics of the GAR bought it. this is why I disallowed orbital bombardment.

on the issue of super-heavies and such...Lets assume normal tactics, OK? the rulebook describes a campaign by the IG in somewhat spartan detail. in it, the final attack involves 10 infantry units and an ogryn unit among others. it would have been much simpler to let the five basilisik units level the castle, but they apparently assauslted anyway, and sustained heavy casualties. as in, heavy in IG terms. thats saying something isnt it?

[Talkkno]

Gavin Sage, Innis Cabel, make a new thread if you want to continue to debate this.

[Neon Knight]

on the issue of super-heavies and such...Lets assume normal tactics, OK? the rulebook describes a campaign by the IG in somewhat spartan detail. in it, the final attack involves 10 infantry units and an ogryn unit among others. it would have been much simpler to let the five basilisik units level the castle, but they apparently assauslted anyway, and sustained heavy casualties. as in, heavy in IG terms. thats saying something isnt it?

There is no such thing as "normal" tactics for the Imperial Guard. You get everything from human wave style attacks (the standard attack pattern of conscript units,) professional military tactics from various eras, and patterns of military conduct that probably have no real world analog. Cadians fight differently from Vostroyans who fight differently from Catachans who fight differently from the Death Korps of Krieg who...

You get the picture.

[Dervag]

Space Marine Scouts are still space marines with all the enhacments. They are even led by a Veteran Sergeant.My understanding is that they have some, but not all, of the enhancements, such that they are physically more capable than any normal human, but not up to the full standards of a Space Marine. Hence their inability to mesh with Space Marine power armor, which is why they have to wear the same carapace as the elites of the Guard.

By comparison, Jango Fett was the toughest guy they could find, in a whole galaxy. A man with a long career as a successful bounty hunter, going after some of the toughest stuff in the galaxy. Which is not to say he'd be a match for a daemon or anything like that, I'll admit.

But I suspect that the toughest and deadliest human you can find anywhere will have physical abilities that make him roughly comparable to a rookie Space Marine-let who doesn't have all his implants yet. Will he be able to lift half-ton boulders, to breathe poison, to spit acid? No. But will this ultimate example have the reflexes, the marksmanship, the skills that are really useful in a firefight? I wouldn't be at all surprised.

Hence my rating of clonetroopers as around Space Marine Scout levels. Physically, they're probably somewhere between the 'pretty darn badass human' levels of the Imperial Guard elites and the 'superhuman but not all the way there yet' levels of the Space Marine Scouts. Combine that with their doctrinal focus on individual initiative and their intense conditioning and training for battle, and I'd say that in terms of actual combat performance they really ought to be on par with the weakest, most inexperienced, incompletely enhanced Space Marines.

Not the full-on Space Marines; those guys are frakking killing machines and I know it perfectly well. I'd say that the standard clonetrooper rifle would have properties sort of like a hellgun, but probably less effective than a bolter. They are effective against armored battledroids, but not against large vehicles, and they don't exactly level buildings with one shot or anything like that.

__________

Now for the off-topic stuff:
__________


As to them conqouring tracks of any Segmentum. How? Let alone the one held by the Ultra Marines. The Clone Army, the Empire, are threats on the scale of the Tau. Their ships don't really match the power of the Battlebargs.My analysis here parallels Gavin Sage's. The answer to your question is mobility. Lots of mobility.

I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of Blitzkrieg, but to review: the key is that you're moving around so quickly that the enemy can't keep track of what the hell is going on. Instead of wasting time bashing your head against his concentrated strongpoints, you outmaneuver the concentrations, cut them off from resupply, and let them die on the vine.

Star Wars hyperdrive provides vastly faster and more reliable interstellar travel than the Warp. Empire task forces will be able to jump between planets in days when the Imperium would take months to do the same thing. The Old Republic does not have to worry about its starships getting lost in the warp and being eaten by daemons, or about them arriving decades after they were called for.

If Star Wars ships wind up facing an Imperium force too strong to defeat, they can flee into hyperspace quickly and easily. If they find a poorly defended planet, they can swarm over it and either conquer it or destroy it as a useful military asset by bombarding the surface. Unless they have a Death Star handy they can't destroy the planet, I admit, but they don't really have to. If they blow up all the factories, mines, fortresses, and shipyards, then the planet stops contributing to the Imperium's defense in that sector.
________

So how would a Star Wars military deal with, for example, Ultramar? First, they'd dispatch relatively small forces to raid all over the domain of Ultramar, causing lots of damage. They'd occupy a bunch of planets. The goal of this would be to compel the Ultramarines to dispatch most of their ships and troops to other planets. There are only a thousand of them, after all; I don't know how many Battle Barges they have, but I doubt it's more than a hundred. Given the number of planets in their domain, it shouldn't be that hard to get them overextended.

Then, the Star Wars ships concentrate lots of ships and troops against Ultramar itself. The scattered raiding forces come together into a single large fleet. Because they can travel so much faster and more reliably than the Ultramarines and their Imperium allies, they can do this while the Ultramarines' elite troops are still in transit.

Then they attack Ultramar's defenses. It may be hard. They'll lose some ships, but they have enough firepower to do terrible damage to a planetary surface. So the Ultramarines come back to find that the Star Wars fleet has come and gone, having wrecked a lot of the infrastructure that the SMurfs need to keep fighting.

They can keep this up until the Realm of Ultramar collapses for want of the techpriests, industry, and new recruits to keep its armies going. They don't really have to engage in mass attritional combat against the Imperium in order to defeat it.

Against a single very heavily defended target, like Terra itself, things get trickier. Without a Death Star, they don't have a good chance of blasting through Terra's fleets by brute force. Their best bet would be to simply cut off the system from outside support and hope for the best. On the other hand, in naval battles it is arguably Star Wars that has the advantage of attrition, and not the Imperium. Here's why:

The Imperium's best starships date back to the Horus Heresy, and when they are destroyed they can't be easily replaced. Only a few planets have the STC templates it takes to build those ships. Whereas in a Star Wars setting, new ships are being built all the time, and they are fully equal to or better than the ones they replace. Thus, if the Old Republic or Galactic Empire has to lose a hundred Star Destroyers to take down one of the great Imperium-of-Man's heavy capital ships, they come out ahead. They can expect to have ano

The same goes for a lot of the Imperium's other best weapons, like Dreadnoughts, Baneblades, and Titans. The Imperium may have them and they are quite tough and powerful, but it can't replace losses. My impression is that this is their greatest weakness, and against a highly mobile and flexible enemy like the Imperium, it's a really serious weak point.

_____________


Then...

It turns out a certain "Cain" fellow is not as dead as reported. Again.

Hilarity ensues.Ooh. This could be tricky, even for him. Jurgen's gonna need a bigger meltagun.

[KnightDisciple]

Jurgen always needs a bigger meltagun.

[warty goblin]

Long, very well thought out post

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, although I think your model of combat has some problems. Firstly it correctly assumes that the Galactic Empire (henceforth the GE) has a mobility advantage. This allows them to concentrate force more easily than the IoM. What remains unclear to me is whether or not they can actually best the IoM in a space battle with anything like equal numbers/tonnage, and even though space battles are the only form of really relevant combat, planets remain the only thing worth fighting over.

Sending in small raiding forces simply risks losing resources and personnel, and since the resources of the IoM are so huge, a planet here and there just doesn't count for much. Now striking hard, fast blows in force at unpredictable targets is a doctrine that makes sense to me. Even then I think Blitzkrieg might be a fundamentally flawed doctrine for a war this large since it tends to be overly aggressive and armies that use it are prone to overextending themselves. A galaxy is a big enough place, even with faster than light travel, that overextension is a real risk.

[BRC]

Wait, is this "GE vs IOM" or "Storm Troopers vs IG"?

How much intel do they have on each other? Do they speak each others
languages, if Darth Vader intterogates somebody and they say "Forge World", does he know what they are talking about?

How do we stop Lucasarts and GW from trying to make this crossover real, re-selling all their figures and merchandise to fans who feel a need to "Pick a Side". You know "Support the Imperium against the GE, buy a Limited Edition IoM vs GE T-Shirt!"

[Mando Knight]

I thought it was the GAR (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic) vs. the Imperial Guard... which is an entirely different proposition, given the fact that Imperial armor is better than Republic armor... and any major Imperial v. Imperial conflict demands the presence of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

[Eita]

If the GE gets Thrawn then the IoM gets Solar Macharius.

[Fredthefighter]

I think BRC is right, we need to think about what would happen if the Clones and the Imperial Guard joined forces against the Demons/Tyranids/Sith/Orcs/Whatever.

[Dervag]

I think BRC is right, we need to think about what would happen if the Clones and the Imperial Guard joined forces against the Demons/Tyranids/Sith/Orcs/Whatever.What happens when the Space Marines find out that the clonetroopers can mass-produce ultimate human fighters from a genetic stock ideally suited to Space Marine bioenhancement? That's the really interesting question...

I foresee a lot of new chapters being founded.
_________


What remains unclear to me is whether or not they can actually best the IoM in a space battle with anything like equal numbers/tonnage, and even though space battles are the only form of really relevant combat, planets remain the only thing worth fighting over.Question. When a standard Imperial warship does an Exterminatus on a planet, is it physically destroying the planet? Or is it reducing the planet to a dead world by bombardment?

According to Expanded Universe stuff, a Star Destroyer can actually do that too, which suggests that ton-for-ton SW ships from the Clone Wars era will be at least within shouting distance of Imperium ships.

In the movies, we have effectively no evidence of just how powerful a Star Destroyer is against targets not protected by some kind of defensive forcefield of unknown strength. The 'asteroid scene' is too ambiguous to provide us with much data and I prefer to avoid it entirely.


Sending in small raiding forces simply risks losing resources and personnel, and since the resources of the IoM are so huge, a planet here and there just doesn't count for much. Now striking hard, fast blows in force at unpredictable targets is a doctrine that makes sense to me.I suppose I overstated my case. What I'm trying to get at is that the SW forces can disperse or concentrate at will, and can either spread out to hit poorly defended targets with no fleet presence or concentrate against fleet bases at will. Couple that with what I believe is near-parity as far as firepower per ton goes, and I think that the SW mobility advantage is decisive.


Even then I think Blitzkrieg might be a fundamentally flawed doctrine for a war this large since it tends to be overly aggressive and armies that use it are prone to overextending themselves. A galaxy is a big enough place, even with faster than light travel, that overextension is a real risk.I meant to use Blitzkrieg as an illustration of the advantage of mobile forces with good communications over immobile forces with poor communications, not as a direct mapping to the kind of tactics I have in mind.

A better example would be the "island hopping" tactics used by the US military in the Pacific during the Second World War. The US did not overextend itself, but it did take steps to create local superiority and cut off Japanese bases. This is how the Star Wars Empire or Republic could most effectively war on the Imperium of Man- besiege its Forge Worlds and other centers of resistance while capturing bases on less defended planets from which to destroy those bases.

However, a key part of this strategy would almost have to be attempts to lure large Imperium units out of position so that they can be defeated in detail. Which would take the form I described. The Star Wars fleet would use its mobility advantage to be everywhere at once, forcing the Imperium to lose planets in large numbers or uncover its key defensive nodes.
__________


Jurgen always needs a bigger meltagun.I disagree. Sometimes, Jurgen's melta has as much firepower as could be desired. A bigger meltagun would only burden him, slowing his movements and making it harder for him to back up the commissar. Which is the point, right?

This will not be one of those times, though.

[Rutskarn]

Question. When a standard Imperial warship does an Exterminatus on a planet, is it physically destroying the planet? Or is it reducing the planet to a dead world by bombardment?

It essentially turns the atmosphere into unimaginably hot blazes, killing all life on the planet down to the bacterial level.

[Innis Cabal]

There is more then one kind of it, its just an order to kill everything on the planet.

They have preformed them on planets with Nid presence and destroyed the planet in a manner the Nids couldn't use it. They are vauge on the technical parts though.

There are creatuers in the WH40K realm that can destroy planets, and the combined forces of the Empire and the Imperium would...well it wouldn't do much against the foes of mankind, the Ork will always be around, the Necron are more advanced then the Empire in every way, even their FTL travel, the Tau would be more screwed, and the Nids....well....the Nids will win in the end. No matter what.

Chaos on the other hand will get Jedi. Yes. CHaos Jedi. Take that Dark Side of the Force, we have daemons now.

[Dervag]

Re: Rutskarn

About like I thought.

If we choose not to ignore the Expanded Universe novels entirely, then there are several examples of a few Star Destroyers being used to do something like that. The reason for using multiples is, as I understand it, to make sure nothing gets away into space.

This suggests to my way of thinking that if we're interested in SW vs. WH40k ship capability, that we should rate Star Destroyers as Exterminatus-capable vessels. By the Imperium of Man's standards of what constitutes an Exterminatus, they are.
_____

If we choose to ignore the Expanded Universe novels, then we have no information about what a Star Destroyer can do to an unshielded planet. Without such information, it is very hard to compare the firepower of Star Wars ships to that of Imperium ships. We wind up doing some truly bizarre scavenger hunt for numbers that are most likely going to contradict each other.
_____

Re: Innis

I'm not quite as sure about that myself, but I don't want to get into an argument over precisely how screwed the Imperium of Man is as of the year 40999.

[hamishspence]

starship comparison is tricky. Also, what sources count as valid can also be tricky- White Dwarf? Black Library? BFG and BFG Armada?

Going by White dwarf account, it can take hours to disintegrate a large asteroid completely- the heavily armed Retribution class battleship in the first White Dwarf article on BFG ships takes 14 hours to reduce a large asteroid to fragments.

on Exterminatus, its not standard issue equipment on anything but Space Marine battle barges (which come with virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes as standard gear)- Imperial Navy ships pay extra to fit Exterminator weaponry.

(Base Alpha Zero is basically just blazing away with turbolasers for hours on end, until the ground all over planet is melted a bit. Not quite the same thing as exterminatus)

on Planet Killing, the title ship is comparable to the Death Star on reduced power- a hour of continuous firing blows planet up, for death star, 3 shots, with recharge time, over an hour period, causes Despayre, the planet it was built at, to break into fragments.

Ship to ship- fairly comparable. Point defense weapons, torpedoes (imperial ones are bigger but slow firing), shields, armour, launch bays, etc. Imperial ships tend to be bigger though, with cruisers being about 4 km long- more than twice the size of an Imperial class Star Destroyer.

[Lowkey]

No, see, at the numbers humans crank out new soldiers, it's a very slight exponential curve. You're right in saying that this won't be very quick, so let's just call it a straight progression, like the clones have.Except the clones don't have a straight progression. One human is just one soldier. One clone tank can produce an indefinite number of clones from that tank. And even if that were not the case, the difference in production rates is harshly against the IG. Judging by the stated training casualty rates, they have to be growing at a rate faster than 2%, just to keep even. Compare that with human population growth rates, which are about 0.6%


There are more human planets than planets producing clones. A lot more.Seeing as how we have no idea how many clone production facilities there are, how would you prove this?


The fact that it takes humans longer to produce new soldiers is outstripped by the sheer numbers that apply every day. Every day, there will be millions of new applicants following the millions that applied the day before. This is applied over one million colonized planets.They don't get a million recruits from each and every planet. In fact a lot of their planets don't even have a million people living there.


IG has the advantage here.
Nope. Because beyond the points above, clone technology scale and spreads faster. Build droids to build more factories to build more clone tanks. It is hard to make a case for a doubling time for clone tanks that is greater than a few weeks.

[Lowkey]

This. Right there.

Star Wars has one problem when warring with the Warhammer 40K civilizations. Frankly, it's outnumbered. Sheer numbers can do a number on any force, no matter how well trained.

The clones could probably inflict serious casualties on the Imperial Guard. Serious, piles-of-bodies-high-as-a-7-11 casualties. But ultimately, they'd lose, because they just don't have the resources.
What on earth are you talking about? The Republic/Empire has a bigger population, has more systems, more planets, and more production facilities than the Imperium. You can make the case that the two polities are on par for most things eg weapons strength being at least within an order of magnitude to allow rough parity. But the industrialization of the GFFA far outstrips that of the Imperium. Heck, the Imperium doesn't even control all of their galaxy - they split it between a number of factions.

[Fan]

The above is actually true as each planet that is habitable in the SW universe has at least several major population centers.. Hell even Tatooine has Mos Eisley, and a few others, and its a barren desert world.

[Ascension]

on Planet Killing, the title ship is comparable to the Death Star on reduced power- a hour of continuous firing blows planet up, for death star, 3 shots, with recharge time, over an hour period, causes Despayre, the planet it was built at, to break into fragments.

It was being fired at reduced power when it fired on Despayre. It destroyed Alderaan in one shot. And I wouldn't underestimate Base Delta Zero. It might not destroy every vestige of some of the nasties in the WH40kverse, but it's more than enough for people (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero). Not that this has any bearing on this thread's original discussion.

[Storm Bringer]

you seem to be underestimating the size of the imperium, and overestimating the size of the Republic/Empire.

First, the Republic is not in control of all it's galaxy. Places like Tatooine or Bespin are at best under nominal soverginty and are not going to be conributing to any war effort (just as most of the Imerpium would not be contributing to the war effort). this doesn't count all the EU 'unknown regions', 'wild space' and other such areas of little knowedge, where the maps are basically blank.

second, the Imperium's planets have often been settled for over 10,000 years (i.e. a large number of them pre-date the Imperium), and have populations to match. For example, the small, backwater world of Taros (detailed in the third Imperial Armour book), which is very simmilar to the planet of Tatooine, has a stated population of 8 million, to the stated population of 200,000 for tatooine (both figures are almost certainly out of the canon, but serve as a useful reminder as to the differences that can be found in between very similar worlds).

thrid, as far as I can tell, places like Nar Shaddar or Corusant (ie planets almost entirely covered in urban areas, with populations in the trillions) are rare, possibly unique, in the star wars universe, they are merely uncommon in the 40K verse and are used as a prime recruiting ground for the Guard.

In short, while the republic may be able to grow clones twice as fast as the Imperium can make babies, the Imperium as a good head start in the numbers game.

[BRC]

Concerning Exterminatus: If I remember correctly, the easiest but least-effective method of exterminatus is a Sustained Orbital Bombardment that requires no special equipment. Essentially, the fleet just shoots at the planet with it's main weapons, dealing catostrophic damage to the ground, and probably destroying the biosphere (Bettween the massive heat and the dust clouds and the smoke from fires, and all that). However, it takes awhile and if you really want to be sure youve killed somebody, it's not as good as other methods.

[Gavin Sage]

you seem to be underestimating the size of the imperium, and overestimating the size of the Republic/Empire.

First, the Republic is not in control of all it's galaxy. Places like Tatooine or Bespin are at best under nominal soverginty and are not going to be conributing to any war effort (just as most of the Imerpium would not be contributing to the war effort). this doesn't count all the EU 'unknown regions', 'wild space' and other such areas of little knowedge, where the maps are basically blank.

-snipped-

In short, while the republic may be able to grow clones twice as fast as the Imperium can make babies, the Imperium as a good head start in the numbers game.

While its true that the Empire did not extend its entire galaxy and I think I can agree that the Imperium probably has more worlds/people on roster, I don't think this is a point that is going to matter. Even a tiny tiny portion of a galaxy can contain hundreds of worlds. Comparative raw resources are meaningless at this scale because the only real limit is in how much one can effectively organize.

And here the GE having instantaneous communication and much faster transit means that it can marshal resources more effectively. Because those reinforcements don't take a month to travel between nearby planets when you're the Empire. But a month is making good time when you're the Imperium, assuming you ever make it.

[Innis Cabal]

They'd need time to chart Hyperspace maps. Alot of time. All the while they would be alone and adrift in a whole seperate galaxy with creatures they wouldn't stand a chance against in their isolated envorinment. They would be fresh pickings for any other creature that plys the region, and they would have no way of even knowing to protect against the Warp. And they would have a presence, they are human after all.

Everyone is also forgetting the size difference between the ships, lances are crewed by towns of people. Criminals to be exact but this is the scalre we are talking about, the gun's themselves are cities. Bit of a size difference.

[Cthulu]

Ok, let me preface this by saying: yes, I am aware that the imperial guard can keep calling in reinforcements until attrition toxifies the atmosphere from too many rotting corpses. However, I'm curious as to how long the clones from Star Wars (all 1.2 million, if i remember correctly) would be able to hold out against an assault from the imperial guard.

IMPORTANT NOTES:
No Titan Legions
No Jedi.
no orbital bombardments.

what kind of casualty ratio would the clones inflict? how long could they hold out?

discuss, i guess.

Ok, so what your saying is lets gimp each group of the qualities that make it a good group. Jedi are for all intensive purposes in the first instances of "clone troopers" intended as the leadership for wich the clones look for orders. so, your taking away leadership and that means we should do it on both sides. so a clone vs. a single imperial guard in essence is what this is all about. If you take a being that was bread for the sole purpose of war and put it in a situation that it was designed for ( lets not go into how the crappy cartoons or movies make them. ) then clone troopers are gooing to eat up imperial guard. because without their leadership guard suck. no comisar saying " move your ass or i will kill you" means no motivation for your troops. the guard would quit. they have families and want to live were as the clones are that. Clones.

And besides lets say for the sake of argument you give them all that they posses. The imperial guard are going to make swiss cheese out of all the jedi. psyker powers are better than silly light saber knowledge and a few gimicks. so what they can squash tanks. humans are in the tanks wich means to squash them would be an act for the dark side. Nope jedi are screwed they cant use their powers like that. thank you george. were as imperial psykers are going to open all sorts of krap up on them simply because they do not achnowledge the "god emperor" and that commisar witha gun saying kill them or i will kill you is a good motivation to keep going. Also their is the sheer amount of heavy witting artillery that most guard regiments take ( without including a single titan) their tanks alone are going to blast apart any thing that the empire of the time can throw at them. ( even if you send a walker from the vader era and it meets a baneblade? its no contest. and hell lets just for fun drop a couple of death strike launchers in the back field.. and wouldnrt it be fun to see hell hounds running amok on clones? things to think about..... silly

~Q

but to your original statement of just plain old guard vs. the clones 1 to 1 odds the clones would win. they are bread for war and have no worry about family. only the republic.

[Innis Cabal]

Ok, so what your saying is lets gimp each group of the qualities that make it a good group. Jedi are for all intensive purposes in the first instances of "clone troopers" intended as the leadership for wich the clones look for orders. so, your taking away leadership and that means we should do it on both sides. so a clone vs. a single imperial guard in essence is what this is all about. If you take a being that was bread for the sole purpose of war and put it in a situation that it was designed for ( lets not go into how the crappy cartoons or movies make them. ) then clone troopers are gooing to eat up imperial guard.

They have other leaders other then Jedi.

As to "Lets ignore the movies and sources they are shown in"...that makes no sense. Saying "Well other then these canon showings of how they arn't gods they are awsome so lets use that" dosn't work in a Vs. thread.

As a side note, Titan Legions are not part of the IG and would not be included in this discussion even if they wre allowed.

Not to mention, a single guardsman is more likely to have seen more combat against foes, and are not green. So its sort of silly to assume they are not as good in combat. They are humans in a world of demons and super men....they have to be a cut above just to survive. Look at all the normal human heros. Are they bad ass's? You bet they are. Why? Because they've lived long enough to be considered heros.

[Cthulu]

They have other leaders other then Jedi.

As to "Lets ignore the movies and sources they are shown in"...that makes no sense. Saying "Well other then these canon showings of how they arn't gods they are awsome so lets use that" dosn't work in a Vs. thread.

As a side note, Titan Legions are not part of the IG and would not be included in this discussion even if they wre allowed.

titan legions and imperial guard are designed to work together in a terror aproach to cause somplete and utter surrender.
the star wars movies make silly sense of just about anything they do. i was refering to them, not the books and actual source material that would account for them. as for the clones it totally depends on what period you are placing the clones in. in the very begining the jedi were the leaders. then as things progressed they stepped out of that role untill order 66 or whatever it was when they turned on the jedi. if your going to "gimp" something in your favor why ask for a "VS>" thread? simply to inflate your under used ego? no, its to disguss diferent tactical sides of a debate. not simply to go. "I rock, you do not " its right up their with the stupid wizzards are the best class ever theory. it cant hold water unless you weight the rules in the wizzards favor wich is usually how those threads are composed.

so, if we go with the original question and take away the jedi and go post "66" the guard will win because of the psykers and leadership. and way more heavy weapons.

[Mando Knight]

While its true that the Empire did not extend its entire galaxy and I think I can agree that the Imperium probably has more worlds/people on roster, I don't think this is a point that is going to matter. Even a tiny tiny portion of a galaxy can contain hundreds of worlds.

The Galactic Empire (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Empire#Astrography) contains over a million member worlds, and over 50 million colonies, protectorates, etc. in addition to that. Imperial Center alone probably has a population of over a trillion, and it's hardly the only ecumenopolis (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ecumenopolis) in the GFFA, and many of these were prime targets of heavy Imperial propaganda.

[Innis Cabal]

Even with Jedi they will win going off the OP. Which is what the OP said. He wanted to know how long the Clones would last and how many IG they killed.

On Titans. That is not why they are used. And they are deployed in rare events where their actual firepower is brought to bare.

Since they range from

These (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_Class_Titan)

Which are so large they come with Void Shields and are obscene in every sense of the word to the Warhound Scout Titan that stands roughtly 16 meters tall. They are used as their name implies, scouts

Info here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhound_Scout_Titan)

[Cthulu]

its not a question of "last" for the clones. they would win. I do not care how you phrase it. even in a perfect one for one world no matter about resources or firpower you go down to one vs. one and a clone trooper takes away all the things that make war hard on your average person. "Family" clones do not have that. only the other clones. Imp guard come from a "home" and therefore will not risk everything no matter what they are living breathing "humans" in every sense of the basic word. At home they have children, family, friends, a place to belong. Clones do not have that and are simply bred to fight for the cause.


and for the point i never brought up titans. I simply used tank examples. nothing more than glorious tanks.

another great note for those who would love titans. lets use the phrase "ion gun" any size you take it will knock of pesky vermin. a planet size one that took out a star destroyer would surely drop even the biggest titan

[Mando Knight]

Do the Clones get A5 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Assault_Vehicle/wheeled_A5_Juggernaut) or A6 (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Assault_Vehicle/wheeled_A6_Juggernaut) Juggernauts?

[Innis Cabal]

its not a question of "last" for the clones. they would win. I do not care how you phrase it. even in a perfect one for one world no matter about resources or firpower you go down to one vs. one and a clone trooper takes away all the things that make war hard on your average person. "Family" clones do not have that. only the other clones. Imp guard come from a "home" and therefore will not risk everything no matter what they are living breathing "humans" in every sense of the basic word. At home they have children, family, friends, a place to belong. Clones do not have that and are simply bred to fight for the cause.


You...don't get how WH40K works do you? Clones are heresy. Your life in the service of the guard is more important then your family or your home. IG that stop fighting because "they have a home to go back to" are shot by their local Commisar.

Clones arn't mindless creatures either, we see this in the cartoon (that crappy computer rendered show thats on now). They have guards that start as rookies, they don't start fresh as battle ready super creatures. They start out like regular humans. They have families, they have squads they care about (we see this in the game).

For the IG. There is ONE, I use caps because its a biggun, single person they live, fight, breed, and die for. The God Emperor of Mankind. Are they mindless? No, but if they don't act like it....they get shot.

[Cthulu]

You...don't get how WH40K works do you? Clones are heresy. Your life in the service of the guard is more important then your family or your home. IG that stop fighting because "they have a home to go back to" are shot by their local Commisar.

Clones arn't mindless creatures either, we see this in the cartoon (that crappy computer rendered show thats on now). They have guards that start as rookies, they don't start fresh as battle ready super creatures. They start out like regular humans. They have families, they have squads they care about (we see this in the game).

For the IG. There is ONE, I use caps because its a biggun, single person they live, fight, breed, and die for. The God Emperor of Mankind. Are they mindless? No, but if they don't act like it....they get shot.

yes, clones are heresy i get that. but we didnt mention that the commisars or anything would be around. in the original thread idea it was clone troopers vs. imperial guard. no mention of jedi, or commisar or droid, or tank or rolling gunship or walker ao anything else.

Yes, clones in essence are space marines but without all the enhanced extra krap that space marines get. they are grown and therefore made for combat. guard are trained. and you are trying to take psychology out of the equation which is what it boils down to. lets not use the kiddie down played cartoon krap here. the clones are "coppies" and in essense if you want to get down to it they are copies of Jango fett, whose son boba is onew bad assed little dude. who ( spoiler for all who didn't know ) is himself a clone. clones are still bred for war. they can and probably do "breed" out the bad qualities of family and scared of war krap if they can breed it into them to activate order 66 and all of the sudden that :"friend" of your the jedi is to be killed on sight.

clones will win.
every time



another note for you my fine friend is this: The clones are bred to fight for ONE single person too. he is the emperor and well thats in the code of how they are made and what it boild down too. they do what he says no matter what.

And boy would i love to see a emperor Palpatine vs the emperor of the space marines ..... think i'm a gonna start that one.

[tribble]

@Mandoknight, Good Question, and seeing as how the A5/A6 is actually a part of the Clone Army, as opposed to a separate force, I'm going to rule that the GAR does get them.however, they are not getting more than they would field in their own universe.

@Cthulu, I disallowed Cheddar Monks because I do not want to get into a power level debate between them and psykers, and because i'm interested in how the clones would preform Vs. the Guard, not how cool the jedi would look fighting them. also, the clones fought without jedi assistance most of the time anyway, there's only so many jedi, and there were more battles needing to be fought then there were jedi to lead the clones. additionaly, a great many guard do *not* have Homes and things, Stormtroopers, for example, are trained from childhood. the guard is for life, you're never going home. they're not seeing their "family" and "place they belong" ever again. and for some that's a plus. also, some of your grammar and such is confusing.

On the issue of which guard we're dealing with, i did not have the more elite guard units (EG. Vostroyans) in mind. I'm interested in how the average guard unit would do against clones. which probably would mean some guys who wanted to be Cadians when they grew up, but were not, in fact, born next to the eye of terror.

a note on weaponry: Blasters do in fact use Explosive force, if i shoot you with a blaster on stun, it is not the bolt that hurts you. it's the water instantly going to steam, which hits you like a club. (this info provided by shatterpoint)

[Neon Knight]

yes, clones are heresy i get that. but we didnt mention that the commisars or anything would be around. in the original thread idea it was clone troopers vs. imperial guard. no mention of jedi, or commisar or droid, or tank or rolling gunship or walker ao anything else.



Orbital bombardment, (as in, from spaceships) titan legions (as in giant stompy war mechs) were both explicitly disallowed in the first post. If the OP meant just Imperial Guardsmen (as in infantrymen) versus clone infantry men, why would he make those specifications? They would be disallowed by the very premise.

The answer was that he mean clone troopers (as in the Grand Army of the Republic as a whole, or at least the clone elements of it) and the Imperial Guard (as a whole service, not just the infantrymen.)

The rest of your post is just so not true, I'm gonna just gonna say no and leave it at that.

[Cthulu]

sorry, some times my grammer gets ahead of me, wich is why i do not criticise others grammer. I spend lots of time going over it and proof it b4 i post it but anyone can make a mistake.

[Innis Cabal]

If its a standard Guard unit, one thats not on the edge of a segmentum and thus in the proverbial thick of it, they would fare slightly worse. But numbers are still on their side, as well as weapondry that in some cases are in orders of magnitude stronger

Commisars are part of the IG, they have them or else most basic guard units would not work. Its not like they can use powers or something, they are just bad ass mortals.

Tanks would be a toss up on what they would use, Basilisks seem the most likely in the set up as its written, Earth Shaker Rounds do amazing things when they hit. Lemun Russ tanks are also no doubt going to be thrown into the mix, though it is impossible to tell really which varient they would be bringing to the party.

[13_CBS]

Wait a minute, I thought Comissars were an integral part of any IG regiment, even more so than any sort of vehicles, ships, or heavy arsenal. Hell, look at the Tanith 1st and Only. They've only got cammo-cloaks and nalwood-stock lasrifles (plus an arseload of fething badassery), yet even they have a Comissar. 2, in fact.

Ninja'ed by Innis.

[Cthulu]

Orbital bombardment, (as in, from spaceships) titan legions (as in giant stompy war mechs) were both explicitly disallowed in the first post. If the OP meant just Imperial Guardsmen (as in infantrymen) versus clone infantry men, why would he make those specifications? They would be disallowed by the very premise.

The answer was that he mean clone troopers (as in the Grand Army of the Republic as a whole, or at least the clone elements of it) and the Imperial Guard (as a whole service, not just the infantrymen.)

The rest of your post is just so not true, I'm gonna just gonna say no and leave it at that.

you can not say the words " grand army" and then not include parts of it. how does that work out. you are simply "gimping" your side for some silly advantage that you could not get otherwise. Like i said when i quoted the whole wizzards are the best character classes in d and d period threads. they skew the rules into their favor and make the vs. thing usless.

[Innis Cabal]

:smallwink: I'm a ninja. My family would be proud.

Karskin wrapped up the rest of it with his above post as well.

[Oslecamo]

clones will win.
every time


Obi Wan Kenobi, Yoda, furry guys and the Emperium on the original three movies disagree with you. The only thing clones can reliably kill is droids, wich honestly ANYONE can easily defeat in one to one combat.

Also, SM aren't born for war, they're selected from the normal population.

If clones were so good, why did they stop being produced?:smalltongue:

EDIT:And like said above, comissars belong to the IG, but they're very badass. Like, "lose an arm and not only keep fighting but winning against impossible odds, by tearing off your enemy robotic arm and using it as your new arm" badass.

[13_CBS]

you can not say the words " grand army" and then not include parts of it. how does that work out. you are simply "gimping" your side for some silly advantage that you could not get otherwise. Like i said when i quoted the whole wizzards are the best character classes in d and d period threads. they skew the rules into their favor and make the vs. thing usless.

Irrelevant. The OP was asking, in terms of pure infantry combat, who would win: IG or Clones? We CAN exclude parts of the "grand army" because it's a hypothetical discussion, so we can exclude or include whatever the heck we wish to.




If clones were so good, why did they stop being produced?:smalltongue:

According to Wookiepedia, it was because the Clones tried to rebel against the Emperor, so Palpatine diluted the Clones' strength by mixing in Clones of different genetic templates, normal human recruits,etc.

[Innis Cabal]

Also, SM aren't born for war, they're selected from the normal population.

If clones were so good, why did they stop being produced?:smalltongue:

1. They're bred and..."augmented" for war, I use the "" because....well becoming an SM is just going well and truely beyond the level of Augmenting

2. Because Lucas didn't think about that when he was making his first three movies?

[Cthulu]

Obi Wan Kenobi, Yoda, furry guys and the Emperium on the original three movies disagree with you. The only thing clones can reliably kill is droids, wich honestly ANYONE can easily defeat in one to one combat.

Also, SM aren't born for war, they're selected from the normal population.

If clones were so good, why did they stop being produced?:smalltongue:


same as space marines stopped being harvested. you start messing up the original DNA sooner or later. but this is sooo of topic.

as for the clone troopers they evolve into storm troopers wich are really good at combat and shooting, just ask Obi wan and watch star wars ( the first one.) and he will tell ya that.

[Innis Cabal]

Space Marines were never halted in "production", or...stopped being...harvested (No idea what that means) there are still to this day new foundings being formed by new batchs of SM's.

And if what you said is true in Clone lines, then they arn't perfect machines of war. They have a fatal flaw.

[13_CBS]

And if what you said is true in Clone lines, then they arn't perfect machines of war. They have a fatal flaw.

Was anyone even arguing that Clones were perfect machines of war? :smallconfused:

[Innis Cabal]

Cthulu seemed to be, saying that no matter what they will always win against the IG because they are born "without the baggage of war".

[Cthulu]

Space Marines were never halted in "production", or...stopped being...harvested (No idea what that means) there are still to this day new foundings being formed by new batchs of SM's.

And if what you said is true in Clone lines, then they arn't perfect machines of war. They have a fatal flaw.


and most of the older groups like the wolves or others are genetically flawed and should be exterminated acording to the god emperors own rules but lets not delve into that. Or the blood angels for that matter. both or those two examples should be wiped out because they are technically heretics by not being of a pure emperors vision type crap. they are flawed.

[Oslecamo]

1. They're bred and..."augmented" for war, I use the "" because....well becoming an SM is just going well and truely beyond the level of Augmenting


Heer, I'm gonna say it again, space marines aren't bred, they're recruited from the normal population who lives perfectly normal lives(by WH40K standards). They pick the best of the best, but still, they pick guys who weren't developed in some test tube inside a lab under high security, like the SW clones. All SM were born from a mother and father and grew up their first years like any other child from their home planet, while clones are mass produced in factories.

As for their level of augmentantion, well, all articles about SM creation say it's a discussable matter how human a SM is. They still bleed, and they still die when their head gets chopped off, and they still eat and breathe, and they still get teared up in half by Carnifexes, so I say they're just augmentated all right.

[13_CBS]

and most of the older groups like the wolves or others are genetically flawed and should be exterminated acording to the god emperors own rules but lets not delve into that. Or the blood angels for that matter. both or those two examples should be wiped out because they are technically heretics by not being of a pure emperors vision type crap. they are flawed.

Technically, perhaps. However, the Adeptus Astartes, being what they are, are usually given some...leeway about this sort of thing. Possibly as an unofficial "Reward" for defending Holy Terra during the Horus Heresy so bravely.

Space Marine chapters are given a degree of freedom, especially from the Inquisition, that almost no other Imperial faction has.

[Innis Cabal]

I used the word "bred" not as in they are born special, more that the process in and of itself is a trial on par with being born a second time, I mean, they get almost every single of their system doubled by the end of it.

As for...the genetic abnormalities....they were present in the Primarchs, and thus do not go against the Doctrine of the Imperium, heck one of them had wings, another a single eye, and they were two of the most beloved of the Emperor.

[Mando Knight]

According to Wookiepedia, it was because the Clones tried to rebel against the Emperor,

More specifically, it was a batch of clones psychologically programmed by the Kaminoans to be loyal to them first instead of the Emperor. The Emperor didn't like this. According to some other sources, the 501st legion's infantry remained nearly pure Fett-clone through the Battle of Endor, and were thus an elite group.

Cthulu, you're applying too much credit to the standard Mook Clones. The basic infantry weren't personally trained by Jango and the Cuy'val Dar, and thus weren't nearly as skilled as the ARCs (Null and otherwise), the Clone Commandos, or the Clone Commanders (like Cody and Rex) that the Commandos retrained later in the war. The latter groups of clones could easily fight on the level of the Jedi Knights against normal soldiers (but not necessarily against super-broken melee specialist opponents like Grievous or his Dark Jedi/Sith Lord masters), and could take out entire warships full of droids. The former were the reason why the war didn't end on Geonosis.

Unfortunately, the skill level of the Commandos is often eclipsed by people comparing their skill to that of the members of the Jedi High Council, like Grand Master Yoda and Masters Kenobi and Windu, and Skywalker. Each of them has shown the ability to take down, without anything at their disposal other than a cut-through-nearly-anything sword and an array of telekinetic abilities, entire armies of battle tanks and soldiers, and duel on par with a monstrously enhanced cyborg (with four of those cut-anything swords!) in hand-to-hand combat.

[Cthulu]

More specifically, it was a batch of clones psychologically programmed by the Kaminoans to be loyal to them first instead of the Emperor. The Emperor didn't like this. According to some other sources, the 501st legion's infantry remained nearly pure Fett-clone through the Battle of Endor, and were thus an elite group.

Cthulu, you're applying too much credit to the standard Mook Clones. The basic infantry weren't personally trained by Jango and the Cuy'val Dar, and thus weren't nearly as skilled as the ARCs (Null and otherwise), the Clone Commandos, or the Clone Commanders (like Cody and Rex) that the Commandos retrained later in the war. The latter groups of clones could easily fight on the level of the Jedi Knights against normal soldiers (but not necessarily against super-broken melee specialist opponents like Grievous or his Dark Jedi/Sith Lord masters), and could take out entire warships full of droids. The former were the reason why the war didn't end on Geonosis.

Unfortunately, the skill level of the Commandos is often eclipsed by people comparing their skill to that of the members of the Jedi High Council, like Grand Master Yoda and Masters Kenobi and Windu, and Skywalker. Each of them has shown the ability to take down, without anything at their disposal other than a cut-through-nearly-anything sword and an array of telekinetic abilities, entire armies of battle tanks and soldiers, and duel on par with a monstrously enhanced cyborg (with four of those cut-anything swords!) in hand-to-hand combat.

nope, im just breaking it down to psychological stuff. Imp soldier has a family, no matter how remote or what not. (we are not going with any specialized groups here. ) and the only thing a clone has is his brethren and the emperor. the clone will win by putting things in a tactical advantage to use the weaknesses of the imp guard ( no matter what they be ) to its advantage. they are bred for war, not imp guard.

clones would still win. on just your basic senario

[Innis Cabal]

You've stated that...more then once, we've all given full counter arguments. Saying "They win, no matter what" with no info to back it up dosn't make it true.

As for the "psychological" aspect, we've given counter arguments as to why your wrong on this as well. The IG does not work like a standard military. If they don't have the will to fight they are shot by the Commisar, thats why he's there.


Please give reasons for your definitive statements please.

[Oslecamo]

If they don't have the will to fight they are shot by the Commisar, thats why he's there.


Actually, Commisars are specialists in giving motivational speeches and inspiring troops in all sorts of ways, not just shoot them as soon as moral starts to go down. It's no good killing your own troops if you don't do it in a badass way with badass words to make the remaining guardsmen fight better.

And that's something the clones don't have. They don't have a reason to fight. Guard fights for their lives, to make their comissars proud at the end of the day, for the ideal of the god-emperor!

[Talkkno]

One advantage of Clones vs Space Marines is that they have unswerving obedience to the Chain of command, as i already noted in Crimson Tears, the Crimson Fists ignored all further commands for leading IG officer, and decide to go on witch hunt of supposedly "Chaos" Space Marines who didn't even plan on attacking Imperial forces until they were provoked by the Crimson Fists. Which the inability to respect the chain of command lead to ultimately to entire collapse of the attack force.

[Innis Cabal]

Shhh. Its not as fun if you give a rousing speech.

And if they are as spineless and weak as they are being made out to be, then shooting one of them is probably your best bet.

I mean, they don't fight Daemons, mindless machine zombies that flay their flesh and armor off of their bodies, galactic stomachs and teeth intent on devouring the whole of the galaxy, or spores that make their crap better because "They beleive it is better" (Such as the color red making all their crap faster). I mean, a few heretics are way stronger and will reduce them to mess's because they miss their wife and kids. Oh wait! Silly me, the clone heretics are one of the smallest threats they will have to face in their hellish ride through a so called life.

[Eita]

Space Marines are outside of the typical chain of command. They are unswervingly loyal to their own chain of command though.

[Talkkno]

Actually, Commisars are specialists in giving motivational speeches and inspiring troops in all sorts of ways, not just shoot them as soon as moral starts to go down. It's no good killing your own troops if you don't do it in a badass way with badass words to make the remaining guardsmen fight better.

Plus, as CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM noted, it makes you less likely to get fragged.

[Talkkno]

Space Marines are outside of the typical chain of command. They are unswervingly loyal to their own chain of command though.

That doesn't ignore the fact that there inability to see the greater tactical situation lead to loss of an important argi world. They weren't even Chaos space marines in the first place.

[Talkkno]

I mean, they don't fight Daemons, mindless machine zombies that flay their flesh and armor off of their bodies, galactic stomachs and teeth intent on devouring the whole of the galaxy, or spores that make their crap better because "They beleive it is better" (Such as the color red making all their crap faster). I mean, a few heretics are way stronger and will reduce them to mess's because they miss their wife and kids. Oh wait! Silly me, the clone heretics are one of the smallest threats they will have to face in their hellish ride through a so called life.

Why don't you give us actual quanfication instead of your ZOMG !!!! Stuff that you have already stated?

[Innis Cabal]

The Enemies of Mankind Are Varied

The 'Nids (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranids)

Da Orkz (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork)

The Necron (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necron)

One facet of the Warp (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Daemon)

Another Facet of the Warp (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Possessed_%28Chaos_Space_Marines%29)

That should be more then enough.

[chiasaur11]

Obi Wan Kenobi, Yoda, furry guys and the Emperium on the original three movies disagree with you. The only thing clones can reliably kill is droids, wich honestly ANYONE can easily defeat in one to one combat.

Also, SM aren't born for war, they're selected from the normal population.

If clones were so good, why did they stop being produced?:smalltongue:

EDIT:And like said above, comissars belong to the IG, but they're very badass. Like, "lose an arm and not only keep fighting but winning against impossible odds, by tearing off your enemy robotic arm and using it as your new arm" badass.

Well, with hero units this shifts from "The guard eventually" to, depending on who all's in it, "Yarrick. By himself. Because CIAPHAS CAIN is generous and allows lesser children of the Emperor a chance to shine." Standard Commissars are badass, but not that badass.

[Gavin Sage]

They'd need time to chart Hyperspace maps. Alot of time. All the while they would be alone and adrift in a whole seperate galaxy with creatures they wouldn't stand a chance against in their isolated envorinment. They would be fresh pickings for any other creature that plys the region, and they would have no way of even knowing to protect against the Warp. And they would have a presence, they are human after all.

Everyone is also forgetting the size difference between the ships, lances are crewed by towns of people. Criminals to be exact but this is the scalre we are talking about, the gun's themselves are cities. Bit of a size difference.

Given that navigating hyperspace is directly related to reality... simple observation of stellar phenomena organized by computer/droid would make mapping not terribly hard. Short hops, probe droids, advancement would be slow next to established routes but still doable. Depending on how quickly the Empire can observe it wouldn't nessecarily even take as long as normal Warp travel. And that's before you raid a cogboy shrine or five steal the local star maps.

And while Imperial ships are much bigger that is not automatically meaningful. Size is not equal to efficiency after all. Turbolasers are completely capable of making an orbital barrage, which doesn't mean I'm putting them on par with lance batteries but so help me I'm not sure I've encountered Imperium's navy using less then that class of weaponry when it needs to shoot directly from space. So I'm tentatively going to rank turbolasers as well and capable of damaging the Imperium's ships, a bit above their normal weapons while well below lance batteries. However with lance batteries rather slow from what I know then it becomes a matter of tactics used, maneuverability of the ships involved, and how effective normal weapon batteries on the Imperium's ships will be against the Empire's deflector shields and armor.

If the Empire say focuses on smaller ships like the Dreadnaughts or Carrack cruisers and swarms a ship neutralizing the lance batteries by providing too many targets spread out to make a difference for example. Which leaves the lesser batteries which so help me I've only seen described as closer to tank scale. And that's when the Empire has to put up anything like a stand up fight in the first place. Massive power is not necessarily the end all and be all of things. Especially when one side can build new fleets with tech they understand, and the other is flying ancient cathedrals you need incense to assuage the machine spirits of.

Note I'm not guaranteeing any of this. Just that where one makes ones assumptions of comparative power based on completely different phlebotniums has a radical effect on what the possiblities are. If I'm wrong in mine own assumptions and the SW turbolaser is taken to be just a well functioning plasma cannon like a Leman Russ might have... but that would just be an assumption on the part of someone else.

[Talkkno]

Ventor-class Star Destroyer has tetratons of firepower at is dispoal, which is weaker then a Imperial class Star Destroyer. Torpedos used break up Space Hulks are gigaton level and slower firing then lance batteries. The fact they are used in space combat, suggests a upper limts to power output of a lance batteries to be lower then those of torpedoes, for otherwise why would they be used instead of more lance batteries.

[revolver kobold]

nope, im just breaking it down to psychological stuff. Imp soldier has a family, no matter how remote or what not. (we are not going with any specialized groups here. ) and the only thing a clone has is his brethren and the emperor. the clone will win by putting things in a tactical advantage to use the weaknesses of the imp guard ( no matter what they be ) to its advantage. they are bred for war, not imp guard.

clones would still win. on just your basic senario

The Death Korps of Krieg have no families, no home world to pine for. All they long for is to throw themselves into the most dangerous and unforgiving battlefield in the galaxy to prove their loyalty to the God Emperor. And while I'm not entirely sure about cloning, Krieg has a massive eugenics program running to produce only the best soldiers they can. And they produce a lot of soldiers. I don't have the appropriate Imperial Armour available, but they produce something along the lines of 10 times as many regiments as is required of a planet of their size. All who are so devoted to the God Emperor, they actually have to put Commissars with them to act as a voice of reason.

And I imagine there are other regiments that are just as devoted. I don't think that this battle is going to come down to either side worrying about their families back home.

[Talkkno]

The Death Korps of Krieg have no families, no home world to pine for. All they long for is to throw themselves into the most dangerous and unforgiving battlefield in the galaxy to prove their loyalty to the God Emperor. And while I'm not entirely sure about cloning, Krieg has a massive eugenics program running to produce only the best soldiers they can. And they produce a lot of soldiers. I don't have the appropriate Imperial Armour available, but they produce something along the lines of 10 times as many regiments as is required of a planet of their size. All who are so devoted to the God Emperor, they actually have to put Commissars with them to act as a voice of reason.

And I imagine their are other regiments that are just as devoted. I don't think that this battle is going to come down to either side worrying about their families back home.
That doesn't make up the vast majority of regiments though. Most of them are actually fairly sane. Another problem with the O.P we don't know what regiments are being sent out since the Imperial Guard is so diverse. Besides, most commasiars aren't the frothing at the mouth kill them all types. As noted by CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, most of them get fragged early on, so that a good % of them fairly reasonable guys like CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

[Innis Cabal]

He actually stated its a "Regular" IG set, so....it still could be just about anything

[warty goblin]

Ventor-class Star Destroyer has tetratons of firepower at is dispoal, which is weaker then a Imperial class Star Destroyer. Torpedos used break up Space Hulks are gigaton level and slower firing then lance batteries. The fact they are used in space combat, suggests a upper limts to power output of a lance batteries to be lower then those of torpedoes, for otherwise why would they be used instead of more lance batteries.

Cheaper? Longer effective range? Less likely that when somebody discovers their latent psykic talent and has a demon burst out of their head, they vaporize something important planetside?

[BRC]

Also, you can put torpedo's in places you can't put lance batteries. Lance Batteries can only fire if they are currently pointing at the enemy, Torpedo's can maneuver themselves, so they can hit even if the enemy isn't being sporting and sitting right in front of your big guns.

[Dervag]

If we just pit average Guards against average clonetroopers, I would say that the clonetroopers have about a 2-1 or 3-1 advantage in a 'simple' tactical environment. If the clonetroopers are allowed to get clever, to start raiding and going mobile instead of sticking to positional defense and set-piece battles, then the odds go up in their favor further. The Guard thrives on positional combat, so even if they take lots of casualties they'll generally win more easily than they would fighting a different sort of enemy..


(Base Alpha Zero is basically just blazing away with turbolasers for hours on end, until the ground all over planet is melted a bit. Not quite the same thing as exterminatus)If dropping a bioweapon that kills everything counts as Exterminatus, then blasting the entire planet into barren craters full of lava should count too. At that point, the planet's been pretty thoroughly Exterminated.


you seem to be underestimating the size of the imperium, and overestimating the size of the Republic/Empire.I should point out that:

-The Star Wars galaxy, like the Imperium, has been settled for a very long time. The Republic is actually about as old as the Imperium, if you believe the documents that make any statements about its age at all.

-The Republic doesn't control every planet in its galaxy. But the Imperium doesn't either. Large sections of the galaxy are controlled by hostile forces, such as the Eye of Terror and the numerous Ork mini-empires.

So I would argue that while the Republic/Empire may not have as much population or industrial base as the Imperium, it's at least within shouting distance.
_______


Not to mention, a single guardsman is more likely to have seen more combat against foes, and are not green. So its sort of silly to assume they are not as good in combat. They are humans in a world of demons and super men....they have to be a cut above just to survive. Look at all the normal human heros. Are they bad ass's? You bet they are. Why? Because they've lived long enough to be considered heros.On the other hand, the run of the mill Guardsmen has a very short life expectancy in combat. Therefore, they won't have all that much combat experience. Are they trained? Sure. Are they badasses? Not necessarily.

"Fifteen Hours" may be an unusually bad case, but it illustrates the problem.

[BRC]

I would say that generally, your average guardsman has more experience than your average storm trooper, depending on the time period. It should be noted I don't know the EU, only the movies.
If you are taking troops from the Origional Trilogy, it looks like the threats facing the Empire consist of one rebellion with a single fleet. Any other experience that Storm Troops get will be from shooting some smugglers and thugs. Which means that most storm troopers are basically standing around looking intimidating while a portion of them fight the rebel scum.

The Imperium on the other hand, is pretty much in a state of constant warfare, besiged on all sides. This means that the vast majority of Imperial Guardsmen have seen some combat firsthand simply because there are more fights happening.

So what you get is Nature (Clone-Troopers with the genes of the most badass guy in the galaxy) vs Nurture (Imperial Guardsmen, average joes who have been baptised in fire and must have learned a thing or two in order to survive).

Now, if these are Prequal Trilogy-Era troops, than they have both firsthand combat experience AND genetic badassery, so it's all in there favor on an infantry vs infantry scale.

[Dervag]

"Clonetroopers" refers to the prequel trilogy army. It's generally agreed that by the time the original movies happen, most (if not all) of the guys in the white helmets aren't clones anymore. They're just normal guys.

That said, the fact that we don't see other opponents fighting the Imperials on screen in Star Wars original movies doesn't mean they aren't there.

[BRC]

"Clonetroopers" refers to the prequel trilogy army. It's generally agreed that by the time the original movies happen, most (if not all) of the guys in the white helmets aren't clones anymore. They're just normal guys.

That said, the fact that we don't see other opponents fighting the Imperials on screen in Star Wars original movies doesn't mean they aren't there.
I use what I see. And considering that Darth Vader and the Emperor were putting their personal attention towrds fighting the rebellion, I have a feeling that it was the biggest threat they faced, and it's nothign compared to any one of the other W40K races, much less all of them.

However, since these are stated to be Prequel era clonetroops, we are at the above statement. I would put a Prequel clone troop well above your standard-issue IG grunt, but not quite as good as IG elites like the Karsakins.

Of course, it depends on the terrain and the regiment they are fighting. Clone Troops in a jungle versus Catchans would be a massacre, provided they didn't just burn the forest down or somthing.


For those of you who don't know W40k, imagine a planet where everybody is Rambo, that is Catchan.

[Neon Knight]

On the other hand, the run of the mill Guardsmen has a very short life expectancy in combat. Therefore, they won't have all that much combat experience. Are they trained? Sure. Are they badasses? Not necessarily.

"Fifteen Hours" may be an unusually bad case, but it illustrates the problem.

This is where I think the unit becomes important. In a conscript fodder regiment, fifteen hours may be scarily accurate. Among the Vostroyans, or similarly professional units like Grenadiers/Storm Troopers, then life expectancy obviously increases.

[Talkkno]

I use what I see. And considering that Darth Vader and the Emperor were putting their personal attention towrds fighting the rebellion, I have a feeling that it was the biggest threat they faced, and it's nothign compared to any one of the other W40K races, much less all of them.


False, the Empire's biggest enemy was itself. The rebbelion wasn't the reason why it collpassed. It collpassed because the Paplatine made it that it could not funtion without him to further solidy his absolute power.

[BRC]

False, the Empire's biggest enemy was itself. The rebbelion wasn't the reason why it collpassed. It collpassed because the Paplatine made it that it could not funtion without him to further solidy his absolute power.
That's a political issue, I was talking about military threats that would get their troops firsthand combat experience.

[Jewel Thief]

Imperial Guard. While Clonetroopers are far superior to Stormtroopers (of the Star Wars variety), their biggest enemy through the movies have been native alien monsters and a hernia of droids. But the Imperial Guard fight the true terrors of the universe - TYRANID SWARMS - ORK HORDES - NECRONS - CHAOS SPACE MARINES who are the very manifestation of evil, along with their daemon masters.

Catachans, Cadians, Mordians, the whole works undergo devastating physical and psychological pressures under the premise "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" while Clone troops... grow up in vats... learn how to fight in virtual combat arenas... and battle very predictable droid units. Psh.

I love Clones. But being the only chick I know who yields a 5,000 pt Cadian Army, with ogryns and ratlings pulling up the rear, my heart is with the Emperor's finest. And I don't mean those glory-seeking jerk space marines (they think they're so cool - bah!). IG wins.

Now Space Marines Vs. Clonetroopers. That's a different story.