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View Full Version : [3.5]Since there's that other Monk thread . . .



Arros Winhadren
2009-01-03, 12:58 AM
I know it isn't good for me (and might belong on the homebrew forum), but I've been thinking about the Monk (cue groans and gnashing of teeth). I'm itching to modify it (note, not rewrite) so that it sucks less. So I'd thought I'd throw out a couple of ideas about how to make it an acceptable class. I know, I know, why not just play an unarmed swordsage? Because I don't have ToB, none of my friends have ToB and I'm not going to buy it. What I have is a PHB and the d20srd.org, so that's what I'm using.

First of all, every Monk build needs Intuitive Attack, at which point I ask why it isn't a class feature if it's required for the build to be effective. Secondly, assuming Wis is used for attack, let's just add Wis to damage for all unarmed strikes or monk weapons. Now we can actually dump Strength like Monks should.

What do you think about things like changing BAB to full, letting monks use Abundant Step at will (but not in battle), making Quivering Palm once per day and making Slow Fall based on some sort of check (Reflex?) rather than being useless until level 20?

Finally, I think that the style variant monk should be included, because it's just a good idea.

I understand that this has been done to death, but I do love beating dead horses. If you can't say anything nice, please don't say anything at all.

Eloel
2009-01-03, 01:10 AM
Contrary to what most whiners say, a Monk is actually quite powerful. Even if straight with no PrCs.

arguskos
2009-01-03, 01:13 AM
Contrary to what most whiners say, a Monk is actually quite powerful. Even if straight with no PrCs.
Note that this only applies in a real game of D&D at the table with a DM/party that don't lean towards hyper-heavy optimization. In your average party of characters, a well built Monk is quite wonderful. It's just that the Monk is among the first classes to fall by the wayside when people start ramping up the optimization ladders.

Eloel
2009-01-03, 01:21 AM
I was thinking of a hyper-optimized group when I made that comment. A monk is actually pretty powerful, more so than any non-caster. (Casters are a different issue, yet I bet monk could get them down too...)

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 01:25 AM
1) Hey if you think the Monk is plenty strong make a thread about it so people can prove you wrong without derailing a thread.

2) Honestly:

1) Make Slow fall exactly like Feather fall but always going. Seriously, Monks should just magically run off cliffs from level 1 and not care. It should also save them from Pit traps, they train by standing on spikes.

2) Make Abundant Step at will, usable even in combat. It's just another way to run away or close, since you can't take any actions after using it. It's fair game.

3) Making base attacks and damage off of Wisdom is good, but also remember to give them it to all Str checks, especially Disarm/Grapple/Trip. They get those feats for a reason. They should be good at leg sweeping, or throwing, or whatever.

wadledo
2009-01-03, 01:30 AM
Or add Wis to Str for damage and checks.:smallconfused:

Thurbane
2009-01-03, 01:34 AM
Maybe Monk should have a Wis based ability similar to the Factotum's Inspiration ?

Arros Winhadren
2009-01-03, 02:42 AM
I'm afraid I'm not at all familiar with the Factotum (I've only really read Core, CWar, Minis Handbook and BoED, so I'm not too familiar with every class). What's the Inspiration feature like?

As for the absurd claim that Monk beats every non-caster, I'm fairly certain a poorly-made barbarian eats at least 3 monks for breakfast every day.

Seriously though, it's not that Monks are terrible. They're very much playable, but I've yet to see someone playing a Monk have as good a time as the rest of the party. They just aren't as useful, and that's what I aim to rectify here. I love the core idea and the abilities of the monk, but they just seem to need some tweaking.

My problem with making Abundant Step available in battle is the sheer range of the ability. 400 ft + 40*.5 ft per monk level? If your monk wants to get away from danger then he's going to, and nothing except for another monk is going to stop him. Another problem is that a monk could effectively fly (out of battle too) by teleporting 600 ft up, then doing it again, and so on. It only takes until his next turn to use it, and since a round is only 6 seconds, he's not going to be hitting the ground anytime soon.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 02:52 AM
I'm afraid I'm not at all familiar with the Factotum (I've only really read Core, CWar, Minis Handbook and BoED, so I'm not too familiar with every class). What's the Inspiration feature like?

As for the absurd claim that Monk beats every non-caster, I'm fairly certain a poorly-made barbarian eats at least 3 monks for breakfast every day.

Seriously though, it's not that Monks are terrible. They're very much playable, but I've yet to see someone playing a Monk have as good a time as the rest of the party. They just aren't as useful, and that's what I aim to rectify here. I love the core idea and the abilities of the monk, but they just seem to need some tweaking.

My problem with making Abundant Step available in battle is the sheer range of the ability. 400 ft + 40*.5 ft per monk level? If your monk wants to get away from danger then he's going to, and nothing except for another monk is going to stop him. Another problem is that a monk could effectively fly (out of battle too) by teleporting 600 ft up, then doing it again, and so on. It only takes until his next turn to use it, and since a round is only 6 seconds, he's not going to be hitting the ground anytime soon.

1) Yeah, it's long range, but not as long as a single teleport. If any character wants to get out of battle they should be able to, but especially the supposed mobility king.

2) Oh knows! The Monk can fly, but can't fight that way, at level 16.

Of course, the Wizard has been able to fly all day and fight doing so since level 7, and he's been able to travel hundred of miles way faster then the Monk since level 9.

Thrud
2009-01-03, 04:15 AM
I'm afraid I'm not at all familiar with the Factotum (I've only really read Core, CWar, Minis Handbook and BoED, so I'm not too familiar with every class). What's the Inspiration feature like?

As for the absurd claim that Monk beats every non-caster, I'm fairly certain a poorly-made barbarian eats at least 3 monks for breakfast every day.

Seriously though, it's not that Monks are terrible. They're very much playable, but I've yet to see someone playing a Monk have as good a time as the rest of the party. They just aren't as useful, and that's what I aim to rectify here. I love the core idea and the abilities of the monk, but they just seem to need some tweaking.

My problem with making Abundant Step available in battle is the sheer range of the ability. 400 ft + 40*.5 ft per monk level? If your monk wants to get away from danger then he's going to, and nothing except for another monk is going to stop him. Another problem is that a monk could effectively fly (out of battle too) by teleporting 600 ft up, then doing it again, and so on. It only takes until his next turn to use it, and since a round is only 6 seconds, he's not going to be hitting the ground anytime soon.

I have had huge fun playing monks in games before. I love em. But then, as has been previously mentioned I don't play in games with mega optimized combat monsters. Still, even when the fighter starts pounding the crud out of everyone the monk has useful abilities, especially if you allow the feats from OA. Paralysis or blinding with a strike. Awesome at lower levels. Despite not being quite as good as the fighter in most combats my monk was always feared by the bad guys.

Monks also make excellent long range behind enemy lines scouts. Possibly even the best ones. Dramatically increased base movement (easily augmentable with handy magic boots to absurd levels) ability to move stealthily, jump long distances also augmentable with magic items, ability to heal self, and listen in on conversations. Yep, if they are used correctly they can be extremely effective. But yes. When you send one straight up in hand to hand combat against a fighter they are probably going to lose. It's almost like they aren't designed to be used that way (since my monk had a magically augmented base move of over 100 by about 7th level I belive, he regularly moved in, struck once for damage or paralysis, then moved so far away he was even out of charge distance before he could be attacked back. Oh, and no, you don't get an attack of opportunity since tumble is also one of my class skills. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee. . . Of course, I always played 3rd ed and never switched to 3.5 so they might have removed the necessary combo of feats to make that sort of thing work in 3.5.)

Hmm, sorry, got onto a little bit of derailing there. Anyway, I have had huge fun playing monks in the past. But then one of my favorite characters of all time was a Bard, so what do I know?

:smallbiggrin:

Edit - No, wait, the reason you get no AoO is because of Spring Attack, not tumbling skill. It is late and I am tired. Doh. Time for bed.

Malacode
2009-01-03, 05:10 AM
Monks really only need one thing: Full BAB progression. This brings them up quite a bit and allows them to go toe-to-toe with a single-class Barbarian or Fighter. In my opinion, Monks are plenty fine. Maybe at later levels they get bonus feats that add Wis to Damage or to their attack rolls, but I would steer clear of putting this in the class early on as it will make the Monk far more inviting as a one level dip for a number of builds.

The problem with monks is, no one takes advantage of what they have. Flurry can be very useful if used at the right times, So can Quivering Palm. Ditto for almost all class abilities. Wizards may be good at everything, but they're boring because of it. Monks are good at very few things, and that's the fun with them.

Eldariel
2009-01-03, 09:13 AM
Fixes to class features:
-Allow Flurry in Spring Attacks, Standard Action attacks and Charges. Makes Monk better able to utilize its mobility.
-Make Perfect Self give DR/Alignment, not DR/Magic. It's level 20 for god's sake.
-Make Abundant Step and Empty Body usable more times per day, or at will; Abundant Step up to Monk-level times per day and Empty Body up to Monk-level+Wis or something.
-Quivering Palm usable more than once per week. Like Wis-times per day or something.
-Slow Fall shouldn't require something to grab a hold to.
-6+Int skills.
-Make the damn speed-bonus of a type other than enhancement-bonus. It should stack with Haste et al.

Additions:
-Give the Monk Air Walk at some point. This would just make sense; if they can walk on the ethereal plane and teleport, why the hell couldn't they walk on the air?
-Some feat/ability to use Dex/Wis for the combat maneuvers.
-Some ability that lets them use Grapple et al. like they had full BAB; alternatively, give them full BAB.

Other changes:
-Either make Necklace of Natural Attacks available for Monks (that is, a Necklace which costs 600+enhancement you're adding and improves Unarmed Strike by that amount; can house others than just straight enhancements), or allow Monks to magically enhance their own unarmed strikes as if they were "crafting" the improvements.
-Make stuff like Falling Star Strike, Freezing the Lifeblood, etc. available.

Behold_the_Void
2009-01-03, 09:30 AM
Additions:
-Give the Monk Air Walk at some point. This would just make sense; if they can walk on the ethereal plane and teleport, why the hell couldn't they walk on the air?

I was about to suggest this one myself. Alternately, crazy-high bonuses to various skills like jump and balance and break out the epic level handbook skill thing to let them to wuxia things like jumping onto a branch and perching on it, or running across water.

woodenbandman
2009-01-03, 09:46 AM
I like the idea of the factotum like inspiration ability.

From what I gather, you guys are thinking of the 3rd level ability Brains over Brawn, which I love dearly. I'd rewrite it to be like this:

Through Diligence Comes Perfection

A monk may add his wisdom modifier as a bonus on all strength, dexterity, and constitution based ability checks and skill checks. A monk may also use his wisdom modifier in place of his strength modifier to determine his to-hit, grapple, and damage bonuses with unarmed strikes or weapons with which he is proficient and trains with for at least 4 hours.

Also, I like the idea of standard action flurry, and air walk. Let the monk flurry with any weapon he wants, and also add this onto there:

Any weapon with the designation of a special monk weapon deals damage equal to the monk's unarmed strike, if greater than the weapon's damage. In addition, the monk may apply any of his feats that rely on an attack action, such as improved trip or improved disarm, to the weapon, even if it normally could not be used for that purpose. If it can, the weapon provides the monk a +2 bonus on the check.

This would make monks more versatile, and it would reduce the use that their unarmed strike gets by a bit, but as far as I know the only way to use stunning fist is with an unarmed strike, so they still see some use there. Useful for monks to overcome DR.

Also, give these guys some damn freedom of movement. They're the mobility king, they should at least get a 1/5 rounds think like the binder gets.

Malacode
2009-01-03, 10:12 AM
Stuff, more stuff and so on....

Any weapon with the designation of a special monk weapon deals damage equal to the monk's unarmed strike, if greater than the weapon's damage. In addition, the monk may apply any of his feats that rely on an attack action, such as improved trip or improved disarm, to the weapon, even if it normally could not be used for that purpose. If it can, the weapon provides the monk a +2 bonus on the check.

More stuff


Is it just me, or can anyone else smell Fondue? As in, several layers of CHEESE! Shuriken doing a Monks unarmed damage + Flurry + Master thrower = Stupid. Maybe it only works with melee weapons, but even so there's oportunity for gamebreakers

Talya
2009-01-03, 10:14 AM
Contrary to what most whiners say, a Monk is actually quite powerful. Even if straight with no PrCs.

Compared to say, a Commoner, or a CWar Samurai, yes! The monk rocks!

Compared to the lowly fighter (who also sucks), the monk is equivalently powered to my six year old son going up against his father.

Anyway, as to the original post:

A few minor changes that would help the monk a lot, without changing the basics of monk features--

Flurry must be simple type of modifier that adds its extra attacks to both a standard attack or a full attack (or a charge, or any other time the monk attacks.)

The monk must get the better of wisdom or strength as a bonus to its damage rolls. For all requirements that depend on strength, they should be able to substitute wisdom if it's higher.

The monk should get 6+int skills per level.

The monk should have full BAB (I actually prefer letting them use 3.0 monk iterative attack progression, though it's less optimal. In 3.0, monk iterative attacks went 15/12/9/6/3.)

Abundant Step should be once per encounter (and at will outside of combat).

Quivering Palm should be once per day.

The monk should be able to have a magic-item creator enchant their body/fists as any other weapon. (No, the amulet is not an acceptable alternative. They need that slot for a periapt of wisdom.) Alternatively, they should be able to enchant gloves/boots/elbow pads/knee pads/headbands as weapons, though they do nothing except for modify unarmed strikes made with those body parts.


Now you've got a monk that's almost worth playing.

wadledo
2009-01-03, 10:20 AM
Or, you could go like soulknife, and give them a static enhancement bonus and special abilities.
Though this might be a bit too radical a change.

Eldariel
2009-01-03, 10:28 AM
The monk should be able to have a magic-item creator enchant their body/fists as any other weapon. (No, the amulet is not an acceptable alternative. They need that slot for a periapt of wisdom.) Alternatively, they should be able to enchant gloves/boots/elbow pads/knee pads/headbands as weapons, though they do nothing except for modify unarmed strikes made with those body parts.

Well, with MiC rules, you can add the Periapt-attributes to the Necklace (or a headwear or such), so it works. That said, with the whole "meditation and self-improvement"-flavour Monks have, I think it would just make sense for them to be able to meditate and actually enhance their own unarmed strikes. I mean, they meditate anyways to complete themselves, it seems like precisely the sort of thing a Monk would be able to do.

Bayar
2009-01-03, 10:29 AM
Is it just me, or can anyone else smell Fondue? As in, several layers of CHEESE! Shuriken doing a Monks unarmed damage + Flurry + Master thrower = Stupid. Maybe it only works with melee weapons, but even so there's oportunity for gamebreakers

If anyone thinks this isnt broken, I'll link the gatling gun shuriken monk here.

jcsw
2009-01-03, 10:54 AM
I'd say scrap the slow fall altogether. It's so situational it's stupid. It doesn't even make very much sense with the concept of the monk.

Fix the MAD, replace the slow fall with something like adding Wisdom to Climb. Better yet, at every level where they get slow fall, let them pick any one dex or str based skill and let them add wis to it.

Malacode
2009-01-03, 11:18 AM
I'd say scrap the slow fall altogether. It's so situational it's stupid. It doesn't even make very much sense with the concept of the monk.

Fix the MAD, replace the slow fall with something like adding Wisdom to Climb. Better yet, at every level where they get slow fall, let them pick any one dex or str based skill and let them add wis to it.

That actually would be brilliant, expecially if you could pick the same skill, lets say, a maximum of 4/5 times. It allows for customisation of the class, which is brilliant. Expecially when you compare monk to Barbarian or Fighter (There's a reason I didn't capitalise monk just then. See if you can guess why:smalltongue:). Barbarians get their stupid number of Totem variants, not to mention the ridiculous amount of PrC's for them, and Fighters get so many feats that they run out of ones to choose pretty soon after getting to Epic levels. All a monk gets is the fighting styles from UA, which are more limiting than liberating.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-03, 12:17 PM
You could use this.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-03, 02:33 PM
The problem with the monk is that many of his abilities are mutually exclusive, and many more just plain make no sense.

As a classic example: Flurry and Increased Speed. If you wish to take ANY benefit out of Increased Speed, you cannot Flurry (because Flurry requires full attack). This nerfs both the Flurry and the Increased Speed, because to use one means to be unable to use the other, in any given round.

Another problem lies in the lack of enchantability for his unarmed attacks. Yes, he gets Ki Strike (Magic), so he isn't hopelessly worthless against anything with DR/Magic, but at the same time, he can't get any weapon enchantments.

Many of his abilities make no sense whatsoever. This includes the more esoteric Spell-Like Abilities they get, including Abundant Step (DimDoor) and Empty Body (Etherealness). These need to be removed, and more sensible abilities put in their place.

If you are serious about this, and not just casting out 'flame bait', then here are my honest suggestions:

1) Allow the monk's body be considered a masterwork weapon for purposes of enchanting. You enchant the monk's body, then all unarmed attacks are considered to be likewise enchanted. You cannot enchant separate portions of the body (for example, a +1 Flaming fist, a +1 Icy Fist, etc...)

2) Remove Slow Fall. The mechanic is simply retarded anyways. Replace with always on Feather Fall effect.

3) Add Ki Strike (Silver) and Ki Strike (Cold Iron).

4) Replace Abundant Step with Pounce, which lets you make a full attack on a charge (thereby allowing your greater movement and your flurry to be synergistic rather than mutually exclusive)

5) Replace Quivering Palm with the following ability:
Dissipating Strike (Sp): Once per week, a Monk may use this ability, which requires a touch attack. It creates a targeted Greater Dispel Magic effect, with caster level equal to the monk's level.

6) Remove Empty Body. Replace with "Perfect Flurry", which grants one additional attack at the full BAB.

Learnedguy
2009-01-03, 02:47 PM
Someone really needs to explain to me what they were smoking when they made up a "Once per week" ability.

Especially when said once per week ability basically is you punching the other guy in the nuts.

Arros Winhadren
2009-01-03, 03:40 PM
There are a lot of cool ideas floating around here, which is exactly what I wanted! Thanks all! Sadly the monk class will be a bit crowded if I included all of them in my little fix. Here's some modifications I'm considering. . .

1)Replace all situations where you apply your strength bonus with your wisdom bonus as a scaling class feature. Level one replaces attack and grapple/trip attempts, level 5 replaces damage, level 10 replaces skills, etc. This only works for unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

2)Monk weapons do unarmed strike damage, with the exception of the shuriken, which merely does 1d2 plus the Monk's Wis Mod. This takes effect at level one. Any Monk weapon may be used for tripping or disarming. This effectively makes Monk weapons flavor-use only(except for enchanting), which I think they should be.

3)Monks get Spring Attack as a bonus feat, at some point or another. Like at level 2 (waaay before they meet the prereqs).

4)Flurry of Blows is now a standard action, but only if you are currently a Monk. This is to help encourage people to stay in the class.

5)Slow Fall is replaced with Feather Fall, and at later levels where the monk would normally improve Slow Fall, he instead gains more wuxia-like moves. Such as being able to run on water, being counted as half his weight, freedom of movement, etc.

6)Quivering Palm is up to Wis mod times per day. Instead of attempting to kill the target the Monk may choose to instead disrupt their spellcasting ability for up to Wis Mod rounds, at no save DC. (Monks are supposed to be anti-spellcasters).

7)Throw in the Kensai method for enchanting fists - only up to half your MONK level, costs experience and special incense.

8)Monks taking Improved Trip or Grapple benefit from it more than other classes. I'm thinking either a static bonus or a bonus that scales with Monk level.

That's what I'm thinking so far. Too much? Too little? Most importantly, would you play it?

Curmudgeon
2009-01-03, 04:03 PM
Yes, definitely too much. Your goal was to make the class suck less. Throw in all of these and it'll be way stronger than decent core classes like Ranger.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-03, 04:33 PM
Monks should get...

-heat vision that turns people in midgets
-frost vision that turns midgets into badgers
-the ability to summon naked people
-mind control but it only works on people who are currently using the bathroom
-the ability to stop time but only when they're drunk
-the ability to make any situation awkward

...and they should get all these powers by 2nd level.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-03, 04:43 PM
-the ability to make any situation awkward

Judged by how often monks come up in these forums, they already have that ability :smalltongue:

Lert, A.
2009-01-03, 04:45 PM
Monks should get...

-heat vision that turns people in midgets
-frost vision that turns midgets into badgers
-the ability to summon naked people
-mind control but it only works on people who are currently using the bathroom
-the ability to stop time but only when they're drunk
-the ability to make any situation awkward

...and they should get all these powers by 2nd level.

Looks fairly balanced.

Arbitrarity
2009-01-03, 04:48 PM
Someone really needs to explain to me what they were smoking when they made up a "Once per week" ability.

Especially when said once per week ability basically is you punching the other guy in the nuts.

Well, Emerald Immolation is a cool, if generally useless, 1/week ability.

Zeful
2009-01-03, 04:49 PM
Instead of making flurry a standard action, I would give the monk a scaling form of special movement that replaces the 5-foot step. Something like: When taking a five-foot step a monk may instead move a number of feet equal to his five times his monk level. This movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.

Lert, A.
2009-01-03, 04:54 PM
Instead of making flurry a standard action, I would give the monk a scaling form of special movement that replaces the 5-foot step. Something like: When taking a five-foot step a monk may instead move a number of feet equal to his five times his monk level. This movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.

A 20th level monk that can take a 100-ft step?

Collin152
2009-01-03, 04:58 PM
A 20th level monk that can take a 100-ft step?

If it's monodirectional, might be a little better, but that's still wrong and silly.

Zeful
2009-01-03, 04:58 PM
A 20th level monk that can take a 100-ft step?

That 20th level monk(replace monk with any melee class ever) can do superhuman things with almost any action. I see why no reason why not.

Lert, A.
2009-01-03, 05:01 PM
That 20th level monk(replace monk with any melee class ever) can do superhuman things with almost any action. I see why no reason why not.

Because a 20th level monk would maybe have this for a base speed?

Not inherently wrong, just needs fine tuning.

Zeful
2009-01-03, 05:08 PM
Because a 20th level monk would maybe have this for a base speed?

Not inherently wrong, just needs fine tuning.

You just addendum with: "Up to the monk's base speed"

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 05:12 PM
That 20th level monk(replace monk with any melee class ever) can do superhuman things with almost any action. I see why no reason why not.

How about because this is a non action that takes him a greater distance then anyone else can even move.

Why not just give him a full attack as a standard action at level 6 and declare that he never provokes AoO after level 9.

Simpler then the weirdest 5ft step ever.

Zeful
2009-01-03, 05:23 PM
How about because this is a non action that takes him a greater distance then anyone else can even move.

Why not just give him a full attack as a standard action at level 6 and declare that he never provokes AoO after level 9.

Simpler then the weirdest 5ft step ever.

Except you can't take a five foot and move in the same round, so you wouldn't be able 5-foot step around the world. Besides this is level 20, wizards can fly almost all day, can teleport themselves and up to five friends* to anywhere that exists and has been vaguely described to them on the same plane. Regardless of distance. Somehow 100ft around doesn't quite compare.

*Number of friends not indicative of the spell's actual limits.

Arros Winhadren
2009-01-03, 05:30 PM
Yes, definitely too much. Your goal was to make the class suck less. Throw in all of these and it'll be way stronger than decent core classes like Ranger.


Righto, I was thinking that it was a little over the top. But they're all things that I think would fit the Monk class, the problem is that there are too many of them. So which changes do you suggest I throw out, and which ones should I keep?

As for the improved 5 ft step idea, I don't see why it would be necessary if Spring Attack is given to the class as a bonus feat.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 05:46 PM
Except you can't take a five foot and move in the same round, so you wouldn't be able 5-foot step around the world. Besides this is level 20, wizards can fly almost all day, can teleport themselves and up to five friends* to anywhere that exists and has been vaguely described to them on the same plane. Regardless of distance. Somehow 100ft around doesn't quite compare.

Right, but why are you changing a base mechanic in such a convoluted, counter intuitive way?

Why not just let it attack multiple times as a standard action? That way you get nearly the same effect without having someone teleport 100ft in zero time. Or hell, why not give him a teleport effect as a swift action. But changing the five foot step mechanic is the worst possible solution.

Blood_Lord
2009-01-03, 05:48 PM
As for the improved 5 ft step idea, I don't see why it would be necessary if Spring Attack is given to the class as a bonus feat.

Probably because Spring attack gives you one attack and the five foot step gives you a full attack and Spring attack is the worst feat in D&D because it tricks people into thinking that one attack a round is okay.

Arros Winhadren
2009-01-03, 05:51 PM
I'm also going with the whole "Flurry as a Standard Action" thing here, so that you'd get an extra attack in there, but I see where you're going with that.

Zeful
2009-01-03, 06:07 PM
Right, but why are you changing a base mechanic in such a convoluted, counter intuitive way?I'm curious how exactly is this counter intuitive?

ericgrau
2009-01-03, 06:22 PM
I know it isn't good for me (and might belong on the homebrew forum), but I've been thinking about the Monk (cue groans and gnashing of teeth). I'm itching to modify it (note, not rewrite) so that it sucks less. So I'd thought I'd throw out a couple of ideas about how to make it an acceptable class. I know, I know, why not just play an unarmed swordsage? Because I don't have ToB, none of my friends have ToB and I'm not going to buy it. What I have is a PHB and the d20srd.org, so that's what I'm using.

First of all, every Monk build needs Intuitive Attack, at which point I ask why it isn't a class feature if it's required for the build to be effective. Secondly, assuming Wis is used for attack, let's just add Wis to damage for all unarmed strikes or monk weapons. Now we can actually dump Strength like Monks should.

What do you think about things like changing BAB to full, letting monks use Abundant Step at will (but not in battle), making Quivering Palm once per day and making Slow Fall based on some sort of check (Reflex?) rather than being useless until level 20?

Finally, I think that the style variant monk should be included, because it's just a good idea.

I understand that this has been done to death, but I do love beating dead horses. If you can't say anything nice, please don't say anything at all.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=monk+site%3Awww.giantitp.com&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
Google is your friend, search away. Seriously. There's 2 of these a week. You can find a lot of info. And what the first few posters said. You don't really need to fix it in core, if you do want to fix it there were 101 suggestions made before, etc. Monks are highly dependant on special attacks and movement skills, which a lot of people don't even know the rules to. So learn them. But even if people don't know what they're doing I've seen games where it wasn't so bad.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-03, 06:22 PM
I'm curious how exactly is this counter intuitive?

Altering the 5' step mechanic has some flaws in it, fundamentally, since it's a mechanic that's not linked to either feats or class features. It also makes it open to some kinds of abuse and is a bit...strange (I mean, seriously: 100'? o_O).

I could understand something like "may increase the range of his 5' step by a number of feet equal to 1/5th his class level, rounded down."

Flickerdart
2009-01-03, 06:33 PM
Altering the 5' step mechanic has some flaws in it, fundamentally, since it's a mechanic that's not linked to either feats or class features. It also makes it open to some kinds of abuse and is a bit...strange (I mean, seriously: 100'? o_O).

I could understand something like "may increase the range of his 5' step by a number of feet equal to 1/5th his class level, rounded down."
1/4 level would work better, since in the end he's be moving 10 feet, not 9. In fact, it's better to keep 5ft increments. Maybe have "can increase the range of his 5ft step 5 feet per Monk level per day, but cannot exceed his base movement speed and may dole up his uses of this ability like the Paladin's lay on hands."

Arros Winhadren
2009-01-03, 06:43 PM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=monk+site%3Awww.giantitp.com&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
Google is your friend, search away. Seriously. There's 2 of these a week. You can find a lot of info. And what the first few posters said. You don't really need to fix it in core, if you do want to fix it there were 101 suggestions made before, etc. Monks are highly dependant on special attacks and movement skills, which a lot of people don't even know the rules to. So learn them. But even if people don't know what they're doing I've seen games where it wasn't so bad.

I think the reason there's 2 of these a week is because there is a very real problem with the class and people want to throw around their ideas for fixing it. Personally I'm trying to spark my own discussion without engaging in thread necromancy. But if you're tired of reading through monk threads then I suggest you stop clicking on them.

Fax Celestis
2009-01-03, 06:51 PM
I think the reason there's 2 of these a week is because there is a very real problem with the class and people want to throw around their ideas for fixing it.

There is. Generally, though, this is the forum for discussing what's wrong with things, while the Homebrew forum is the one for fixing them.

Zeful
2009-01-03, 06:55 PM
Altering the 5' step mechanic has some flaws in it, fundamentally, since it's a mechanic that's not linked to either feats or class features. It also makes it open to some kinds of abuse and is a bit...strange (I mean, seriously: 100'? o_O).

I could understand something like "may increase the range of his 5' step by a number of feet equal to 1/5th his class level, rounded down."

First Point: At 10th level you are doing supernatural (by our definition) things with skill checks. 20th level should only ever be more so.

Second Point: This does not explain how modifiying the 5-step is counter intuitive.

Sir Giacomo
2009-01-03, 07:11 PM
I know it isn't good for me (and might belong on the homebrew forum), but I've been thinking about the Monk (cue groans and gnashing of teeth).

Welcome to the club...:smallcool:


I'm itching to modify it (note, not rewrite) so that it sucks less.

Why do you think it sucks? In your reply to ericgrau you refer to other posters, I'd suggest to try it out first (but try to make certain that the other rules are observed as well, such as no wizards running around with armies of bound succubi at level 9...:smallwink:


So I'd thought I'd throw out a couple of ideas about how to make it an acceptable class. I know, I know, why not just play an unarmed swordsage? Because I don't have ToB, none of my friends have ToB and I'm not going to buy it. What I have is a PHB and the d20srd.org, so that's what I'm using.

Core rules? Well, there is my guide (link in the sig)...the discussion following the guide is very representative of a lot of misperceptions of the monk class spread around here.
In that other monk thread (the one you refer to in your header), I outlined why even with ToB, going swordsage to replace a monk may not be that feasible...


First of all, every Monk build needs Intuitive Attack, at which point I ask why it isn't a class feature if it's required for the build to be effective. Secondly, assuming Wis is used for attack, let's just add Wis to damage for all unarmed strikes or monk weapons. Now we can actually dump Strength like Monks should.

First of all, NOT every monk needs intuitive attack - only those that want to build on high WIS. There'S also kung fu genius (monk focusing on INT, but I do not have the rules nearby- sorry!), weapon finesse and plenty other possibilities. Well, outside core, intuitive Attack (like Weapon Finesse) is a good way to build a monk without high STR. But in core you won't need it (check my guide).
Also, you can still increase your damage output by increasing your size and/or your monk damage levels. The more you get, the more exponentially that damage will rise. It is the monk's melee combat version of the rogue's sneak attack, the paladin's lance charge and the fighter/barbarian's power attack.


What do you think about things like changing BAB to full, letting monks use Abundant Step at will (but not in battle), making Quivering Palm once per day and making Slow Fall based on some sort of check (Reflex?) rather than being useless until level 20?

What I think about these "classical fixes"? Not much, truth to say, or rather - only as countermeasures to houserules making other classes also more powerful.
You can get full BAB even in core (check my guide), and letting monks use abundant step at will (but not in battle) is not that necessary. At 90ft movement, they can move outside battle 360ft/round. That's not that far from a dimension door. And dimension door is especially useful IN battle (as an escape pod; usable by a monk even when paralysed).
Slow Fall is not powerful, but definitely not "useless". And the quivering palm attack 1/day may be too tough - remember that the monk can also use it with a ranged weapon, can blackmail an enemy hit by said attack (since he need not activate it) AND can put this into the same strike as on top of save-triggering stunning fist, poison, massive damage and a touch spell.

- Giacomo

FMArthur
2009-01-03, 07:33 PM
Sir Giacomo, please don't do this. The thread's about what to add to improve the monk, not whether or not it is bad. There is no shortage of people who'd like to debate with you on this, but can you take it somewhere else or make a new thread? He's saying "help me improve the monk", and you're responding with "it doesn't need improvement, you and your group are playing wrong" instead of just helping suggest interesting things to add.

Sir Giacomo
2009-01-03, 07:46 PM
Well, truth to tell, I replied to the OP Arros Winhadren - and also to his suggestions about monk fixes.

Fax Celestis also gave good advice to the OP, I think.

But overall, you're correct FMArthur. I'll not post again here unless specifically asked by the OP.

- Giacomo

Arros Winhadren
2009-01-04, 12:34 AM
I have no problem with you posting Giacamo, it's clear that you just want to help. I'll admit that I haven't read your guide, so that's something I'll do first moment I have a chance. And I do appreciate your feedback. But if you don't mind, answer me this: If you were asked to make one relatively minor change to the Monk class in order to make it better (and you are being asked that), what would you do?

Curmudgeon
2009-01-04, 01:15 AM
Instead of making flurry a standard action, I would give the monk a scaling form of special movement that replaces the 5-foot step. Did you know that Monks can get a non-scaling improvement over the 5' step? Training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) can give any Monk the option to take a 10' step in place of the standard 5' adjustment. This is an expensive piece of equipment, but I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing Monks to have free access to one starting from say level 5. This works within the existing rules and still makes a big tactical improvement: a 5' step lets you pick from 8 new locations to move to, while a 10' step increases that number to 20 (every space in a 5x5 grid centered on the Monk's starting position, minus the corners).

Zeful
2009-01-04, 01:34 AM
I don't keep up with stuff beyond core, simply because there's just so much of it and I'm poor. Sounds like something. But there is nothing wrong with flurry as a standard action.

But looking over how monks and other meleers are limited to mundane stuff in combat, when a 9th level jump focused character can out preform any of our Olympic athletes, regularly, in armor, in a world where four more years of study allows you to reshape reality as you see fit, just seems to tug too hard at immersion. Which is why "mundane" characters given abilities to simply exceed beyond 100% human (or elven, whatever) capacity appeals to me. I'm for giving high level character (Su) abilities as they pass the "mundane barrier" of level 9-10.

Leon
2009-01-04, 01:52 AM
Note that this only applies in a real game of D&D at the table with a DM/party that don't lean towards hyper-heavy optimization.

Which is probably the vast majority of players