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Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 04:34 AM
Say that your character is old, which means that his mental abilities have increased some, and that his physical ones have decreased even more, and this character dies and gets reincarnated by a druid. The spell grants him a new young adult body. Does the character keep his increased mental abilities?

I not aware of anything in the PHB that says otherwise.

Also, this spell seems like a way to be immortal, I wonder if the game creators realized that.

Dixieboy
2009-01-03, 04:38 AM
They haven't gotten any younger so i would assume they keep their brainz :smalltongue:

But they won't be getting any more upgrades due to age in terms of mental abilities (You can't become venerable twice)

Starscream
2009-01-03, 05:57 AM
Seems like a good deal for an elderly character overall. I can imagine some DMs taking a dim view of abusing this, however. If you start as a venerable character, let something kill you, and have the party druid reincarnate you, you are essentially getting something for nothing. Factor in the chance that your new body might even be of a race stronger than your old one, and it seems like there's no downside.

Of course, you lose a level, but its still superior to most other forms of dead raising magic, and in some circumstances might even top True Resurection.

ShadowFighter15
2009-01-03, 06:03 AM
Seems like a good deal for an elderly character overall. I can imagine some DMs taking a dim view of abusing this, however. If you start as a venerable character, let something kill you, and have the party druid reincarnate you, you are essentially getting something for nothing. Factor in the chance that your new body might even be of a race stronger than your old one, and it seems like there's no downside.

Of course, you lose a level, but its still superior to most other forms of dead raising magic, and in some circumstances might even top True Resurection.

There is still the chance of ending up as something not all that pleasant, like a bugbear or a goblin. Long life is one thing, but a new life as a kobold is something else entirely. That being said; a generous (yet slightly malicious) DM could just make a small change to the character's new form. Swapped gender. :smallbiggrin:

Since their mental state won't change, I'd imagine such a character having a few choice words for the druid and the player to have a few such words for the DM.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-03, 06:06 AM
I agree with ShadowFighter. Admittedly, True Reincarnate gives a choice between 2 forms and it doesn't cause level loss (it's a level 9 spell, though). I know Wish can restore your old form but can Miracle do that as well without an Exp. cost?

Aquillion
2009-01-03, 06:20 AM
The problem is this: While you can argue that it is logical, it is not RAW -- that is to say, there aren't actually any rules that cover it. Reincarnate says you get a young adult body. But your strength, dexterity, and constitution scores only depend partly on your new body, leaving it unclear:


A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.
The problem is that that sentence is immediately followed by one that seems to tell in detail exactly what this 'partly' relies on -- eliminate racial adjustments, then apply new ones. No mention is made of the new age categories.

It also doesn't actually say a single word about mental stats (which is actually a little odd -- you'd expect it to specifically list them among all the other things that are unchanged. But it doesn't.) This is important because the rules on aging technically do not say where your mental attribute bonuses come from -- in other words, when Reincarnate says it gives you a young adult body, it is perfectly reasonable, within RAW, to argue that this means it strips you of both your physical and mental stat-changes, because nothing in the rules tells us where those changes derive from. If that seems stupid to you, realize that we are discussing the idea of people inevitably getting smarter, wiser, and more beautiful/forceful of personality as they get older -- common sense does not apply. Maybe people in the D&D universe have a magic 'smartness/wiseness/charismatic' gland that starts pumping out hormones as they get older. Or something.

Therefore it is a matter of DM call as to exactly how it is handled. You can argue that it is logical for the 'partly' to include the alteration to your age, and for a physical change to your body's age to exclude age-derived bonuses to your mental stats... but RAW is not a matter of something being logical -- if it's not there, you have to rely on DM calls. Good luck with that.

If you've reached Venerable age, there is an additional problem worth pointing out. Per RAW:

When a character reaches venerable age, secretly roll his or her maximum age, which is the number from the Venerable column on Table: Aging Effects plus the result of the dice roll indicated on the Maximum Age column on that table, and records the result, which the player does not know. A character who reaches his or her maximum age dies of old age at some time during the following year.There is nothing in that text that would indicate that a change to your race will alter that result after it has been rolled -- once you reach venerable and your maximum age has been rolled, you will die within a year of reaching that age, regardless of all other considerations. Even if you only reach that age temporarily and later become younger, it's too late -- your death within a year has already been decided.

But wait!, you say. Reincarnate changes you into a young adult.

And yes. That is the problem. Let's say you are a venerable human; when you hit venerable, you roll for a maximum age and get 110. You cast reincarnate and become an Elf. You are now a young adult elf... of a spry 110 years in age. Since Reincarnate has not changed the maximum age you rolled previously, you are now doomed to die within the next year, with no possibility of resurrection.

(Yes. Well. Technically you don't unless you rolled exactly 110 years for your maximum age; if you rolled lower than that, you are safe as long as you don't get any younger, because you technically haven't 'reached' your maximum age, although I suppose you could argue over the usage of the word of 'maximum'. It isn't clear whether you'll have to roll again if you should happen to age until you are a venerable elf. Note that any form of magical aging that brings you forward multiple years at once without passing the intervening years individually will likewise exploit this loophole.)

Adumbration
2009-01-03, 06:26 AM
I agree with ShadowFighter. Admittedly, True Reincarnate gives a choice between 2 forms and it doesn't cause level loss (it's a level 9 spell, though). I know Wish can restore your old form but can Miracle do that as well without an Exp. cost?

Where is this True Reincarnate?

ShadowFighter15
2009-01-03, 06:26 AM
Which is where DM common sense and a discussion amongst the players about how to handle it step in.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-01-03, 06:30 AM
Beyond the RAW issues, reincarnation shenanigans is a great way for your character to wish he was old again (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut).

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-03, 06:34 AM
According to http://www.devinweb.com/druidspells.htm , it's in Masters of the Wild, which if I remember correctly is a 3.0 sourcebook which was never updated to 3.5. I think TR only costs 1000 Exps to cast as well. Maruts just sound really irritating to me.