PDA

View Full Version : A Dilemma - What system to use?



Darkameoba
2009-01-03, 09:26 AM
Hey guys, I have a bit of a problem.
I'm starting to hate D&D but I don't know anything else that will work. I have been GMing for about 5 years now and am about to start another campaign, but I'm getting sick of D&D.
I don't like hit points, I dont like levels, I'm not too hot about classes and AC seems stupid to me. But I love fantasy and I love magic (when used with spell points from the unearthed arcana).

Now I've GM'd for Vampire the Masquerade, D&D 3rd ed, D&D 3.5, D&D 4th (barely), Shadowrun 3rd ed, The Warhammer Fantasy RPG, Inquisitor, Silhouette, CthulhuTech, V for Victory, Starwars RPG (the d20 and D6 versions), D20 Modern, Iron Kingdoms and BESM.

I've sorta figured out what im looking for. I want a system where getting hit sucks no matter what 'level' you are, like Shadowrun.
Not opposed to a vitality/wounds system either, where the determining factor to you getting hit is not a static number. Preferably something classless with free-form growth (something akin to Shadowrun or CthulhuTech) would be nice, but not necessary.
Something where the modifiers to hit dont get way outta hand (for example, +21 to hit in a d20 system).
As far as dice go, any of them work. D20, D6 D10- its all good.
But foremost, it must work for a fantasy setting. It's gotta handle magic well and make the players feel like they are special- but not gods.
Also, something that isn't easy to munchkin in would be great (my group is really bad for that sometimes).
One last thing, the system has to handle 7-10 players smoothly.

Basically what I'm asking here is: What system do you recommend that comes close to meeting what I asked for? Thanks a ton in advance.

Grail
2009-01-03, 09:33 AM
True 20 (http://www.true20.com) It is a level based system, but doesn't use hp. Getting hit can hurt quite a bit. And even a minor wound can seriously turn a fight between evenly matched combatants.

The Magic (or supernatural powers) is fairly elegant and easy to use, and gives a lot more flexibility to casters especially when they are starting out.

Other systems that I've used and liked are Maelstrom (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maelstrom_(role_playing_game)) which has been reprinted and can be purchased on RPGNow and MERP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MERP).

Malacode
2009-01-03, 10:35 AM
If you like shadowrun, why not stick with it? A few changes to the fluff and equipment lists (Their stats don't need to change, just the names. Maybe get rid of the higher powered stuff and cyberware too) and a decent homebrew setting and you've got a fantasy game. *shrug* S'what I'd do if I ever got bored of D&D (Which I won't. Not to sound prissy or anything, but I enjoy the game and the fact that it's broken)

Arcane_Snowman
2009-01-03, 10:54 AM
GURPS (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/) may be to your liking

Satyr
2009-01-03, 11:01 AM
Obligatory Witchcraft (http://www.edenstudios.net/witchcraft/WitchcraftCorebook.zip) Link.
Witchcraft is free, easy to learn and has alwys the better World of Darkness, only more so since the release of the NWoD.
The rulesystem is very adaptableand a full functional replacement for many systems, granting many, many options (not in Gurps territory, but still much more flexibility than any level-based system). Besides, it's free.

I use the rules as a replacement for D20 rules for grittier setttings like Dark Sun, Midnight or A Song of Ice and Fire and it has completely fail to disappoint me until now. The game is grittier and less style over substance which makes it more fun for me. The same rules are also used for All Flesh Must Be Eaten, so you can use Dungeons and Zombies, the fantasy supplement. Overall AFMBE is a good investment if you like the Witchcraft rules.

And Gurps is always an option. In two out of three cases minimum, you do better by replacing the original system with Gurps and the result will be better then the original system.

Iku Rex
2009-01-03, 11:01 AM
I believe Earthdawn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthdawn) is the "fantasy version" of Shadowrun.

Alternity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternity) might work, but it's mainly intended for Sci-Fi so it will take a little work if you want to use it for a fantasy setting. Alternityrpg.net (http://alternityrpg.net/latest_res.php) can help you out.

Baxbart
2009-01-03, 11:12 AM
I'll second the vote for GURPS. A lot of the old kinks have been ironed out since 3rd ed revised, so picking up a copy of 4th edition might be what you're looking for. Its relatively simple once you get the hang of things, but given the generic system outlook, there are a vast amount of options out there. Exercising a little restraint on what makes sense tends to be the order of the day. The general mechanics for rulings are fairly straightforward (almost everything is 3d6 compared against a target skill or attribute, subject to various modifiers), and it certainly has deadly in droves!

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need piles of books to run a GURPS game. If you're a fan of pre-made settings, then those are available, but it gives you a bit of a sandbox with which to do whatever you please. For fantasy, and especially if you want more extensive magic, you'll want the two basic set books (Characters and Campaigns), and most likely the Magic book too.

The Fantasy book, and most of the others are useful if you have them, but generally aren't necessary.

Darkameoba
2009-01-03, 11:44 PM
thanks guys, I'm going to check these all out and see what fits.

dariathalon
2009-01-04, 12:25 AM
I'll second or third or whatever number we're on now the vote for GURPS. I think it is a very good system that can handle many of the things you're looking for very well. For example, depending on the limitations you put on characters combat can be very deadly.

Since it sounds like the magic system is important to you, I will point out that just like most things in GURPS there are a lot of ways it can be handled. There is the standard method of skill-based spell-casting, which I like quite a lot but isn't everyone's cup of tea. I've also seen that a lot of groups have had luck ignoring those rules and building all magic on the advantage rules (both can be found in just the core books). I also believe that there are other possibilities in some of the other books too.

Darkameoba
2009-01-05, 01:13 AM
Thanks all, I've decided to go with gurps.

JonestheSpy
2009-01-05, 01:51 AM
Before you decide once and for all, try checking out the d100 system. Based on the gaming template created by Chaosium, it was the foundation for the late, great fantasy RPG Runequest, as well as Call of Cthulu, Superworld, Stormbringer, and a few others.

All skills are based on your %chance of sucess, no classes or levels, just doing what you're good at, and if you take a couple of good body blows to your unarmored torso, you're pretty much a goner.

Worth checking out.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-05, 02:50 AM
Mongoose's RuneQuest. Download the SRD for free. (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/series.php?qsSeries=39) It beats BRP and old RQ by a mile (and I say this as a RQ/Glorantha fanatic for the last 15 years).

Kurald Galain
2009-01-05, 06:56 AM
Something where the modifiers to hit to get way outta hand (for example, +21 to hit in a d20 system).

Based on this, Exalted. You haven't seen epic until you've seen that.

Artanis
2009-01-05, 04:46 PM
Based on this, Exalted. You haven't seen epic until you've seen that.
Seconded.

And given how often me and Kural Galain disagree on things, you know that if we agree, it MUST be the right choice :smallwink:

Darkameoba
2009-01-05, 09:45 PM
oops, ment to say "dont get outa hand", my bad. I guesse whats what happens when you make a post at 4 in the morning. Thanks for the help btw.

bosssmiley
2009-01-06, 05:14 AM
You need more WFRP in your life Darkamoeba. Nothing makes you feel more special than playing a heroic ratcatcher. It is a delicious game, and you must eat it. :smallbiggrin:

Rad
2009-01-06, 09:16 AM
I would add in my votes for Exalted (if you like the setting) or GURPS if you want to design your own world. Consider the fact that GURPS has many ways to deal with supernatural abilities; including psionics that to most is what magic should have been and ca be extremely easily be refluffed as such.
Have fun!

Satyr
2009-01-06, 09:53 AM
Actually there are around seventeen or so gurps magic systems, plus an nigh endless list of aditional ones for whatever you want. But the better ones are normally advantage/power based.

Exalted on the other hand, is all about flashiness, which is not really one of the more elaborate objectives RPG. Describing visual special effects is somewhat dull and besides, the whole style over substance stuff leads easily to the neglection on the substance part.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-01-06, 10:02 AM
You need more WFRP in your life Darkamoeba. Nothing makes you feel more special than playing a heroic ratcatcher. It is a delicious game, and you must eat it. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, you're one of dem fancy big-city rat-catchers, eh? Got a job and all. Fancy pole and a lil' yappy dog.

Bonepicker is where it's at.

Hawriel
2009-01-06, 10:18 AM
Sence your familiar with the old D6 star wars might I suggest West End Games D6 Fantacy.

Also Roll Master might be to your liking. There are wounds and weapon damage based on type and what armor the target is wearing.

Artanis
2009-01-06, 01:04 PM
Exalted on the other hand, is all about flashiness, which is not really one of the more elaborate objectives RPG. Describing visual special effects is somewhat dull and besides, the whole style over substance stuff leads easily to the neglection on the substance part.
What? You do know that you don't have to describe stuff, right? It helps, but isn't totally critical.

And there's plenty of substance, you just have to see it. Take the Daiklave for example. Sure, it's a big honkin' sword. But it's also a symbol of what the Exalted are, and a damned good item mechanics-wise that ties into both stats and the character's backstory. A backstory, by the way, that is bound to have more substance than "uh yeah, I learned how to put pointy things into people. Now where's my ph4t l00tz?"

Tellah
2009-01-06, 01:17 PM
You need more WFRP in your life Darkamoeba. Nothing makes you feel more special than playing a heroic ratcatcher. It is a delicious game, and you must eat it. :smallbiggrin:

Having just started running WFRP, I've decided there is not, nor can there be, a system so sublimely awesome as WFRP.

Satyr
2009-01-06, 02:41 PM
What? You do know that you don't have to describe stuff, right? It helps, but isn't totally critical.

The alternative is the intolerable dull "roll and tell the numbers" which reduces the roleplaying to a party of Yahtzee. It's not the description part. It's the contents of the description that led to my personal headaches. I guess I prefer less larger than life characters.


A backstory, by the way, that is bound to have more substance than "uh yeah, I learned how to put pointy things into people. Now where's my ph4t l00tz?"


I know that the game has some deeper mythology, but seriously the gameplay was too focused on the flashiness. I am certain that visiual effects are not a good element for purely vocal-based medium like roleplaying games, because of the most complete lack of visual aspects.
Besides I completely agree that Roleplaying, diablo style isn't the optimum either.

Darth Stabber
2009-01-06, 03:06 PM
The Riddle of Steel.
Vaguely based on conan. Has An amazing combat system, and Yes getting hit blows alot, No hp, but penalties when injured depending on where you were hit and how hard. Magic is slightly over powered, and GM Dependant, but frequently kills those who try to abuse it. Spiritual Attributes are a beutifully functional combination of advancement mechanism, and Roleplaying enforcer. Cannot recomend highly enough.

Jayabalard
2009-01-06, 03:54 PM
GURPS if you want to design your own world. Personally, I like GURPS Banestorm for a fantasy world, so GURPS is fine even if you don't want to create your own world

You can check out the basics of the rules with GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Lite/), which is a free download. You can get a decent idea of what is possible in the system.

If You want to do fantasy, you'll probably want the Basic Set (2 books, Characters, and Campaigns), and then 2 or more other books. Magic and Fantasy are almost a given; Banestorm is, as I said, a pretty decent fantasy world.

You can mix in any number of other books, though I'd suggest playing with just a couple to start with.

Morandir Nailo
2009-01-06, 06:52 PM
I highly suggest Barbarians of Lemuria (http://www.geocities.com/barbariansoflemuria/). It's incredibly easy to learn and use, and keeps the numbers simple, while going for that Conan feel. Character advancement is point-based (spending points to raise attributes, combat values, and ranks in careers), magic is free-form, and HP stays low, but with Hero Points the PCs can still do heroic stuff. You can get the original version of the game for free (click the "Original BoL" link), and the newer one is only $10.00. Money well-spent, IMO.

Mor

Artanis
2009-01-06, 08:53 PM
The alternative is the intolerable dull "roll and tell the numbers" which reduces the roleplaying to a party of Yahtzee. It's not the description part. It's the contents of the description that led to my personal headaches. I guess I prefer less larger than life characters.
But the same goes for any game system in history. Saying "I attack" is just as dull in DnD and GURPS and Shadowrun and BESM and Battletech and Heavy Gear and WoD as it is in Exalted.




I know that the game has some deeper mythology, but seriously the gameplay was too focused on the flashiness. I am certain that visiual effects are not a good element for purely vocal-based medium like roleplaying games, because of the most complete lack of visual aspects.
The thing is that there isn't much more than what you call "visual effects" that can add to the description of an action. If you dislike saying "I attack" because it's dull, then by definition you prefer said descriptions to include visual effects. Exalted allows visual effects anywhere along that scale.

elliott20
2009-01-06, 09:25 PM
Almost a full page of suggestions and nobody bothered suggesting Burning Wheel! what kind of world are we coming to!?!?!

The BW system is essentially classless and skill based. The game's central mechanic makes combat a really messy and dangerous ordeal, while emphasizing the social aspects of your character. (even the most tricked out character can get killed in one or two good hits)

If you're not looking to play a kick down the door style game, BW is worth the look.

Illiterate Scribe
2009-01-06, 09:33 PM
Having just started running WFRP, I've decided there is not, nor can there be, a system so sublimely awesome as WFRP.

I'd say that Dark Heresy might be a little behind on the system, more restrictive classes, etc, but the setting more than makes up for it. But let us bask in the shared warmth of critical hit tables:

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/e3/DH_CH_energy_head.JPG

R4ph
2009-01-07, 12:32 AM
The Riddle of Steel.
Vaguely based on conan. Has An amazing combat system, and Yes getting hit blows alot, No hp, but penalties when injured depending on where you were hit and how hard. Magic is slightly over powered, and GM Dependant, but frequently kills those who try to abuse it. Spiritual Attributes are a beutifully functional combination of advancement mechanism, and Roleplaying enforcer. Cannot recomend highly enough.

Gotta agree, Riddle is a wonderful system. Brutally effective combat, whoever managed to land the first blow will often win, as that one blow pretty much ends a fight.

Only thing about it is that everyone needs to be very familiar with the system, else it will be very slow, especially for combat. Once everyone knows what they're doing though, it is great.

Although it does say a lot about how harsh the system is, when it includes a mechanic for improving your next character...

elliott20
2009-01-07, 12:55 AM
I'd say that Dark Heresy might be a little behind on the system, more restrictive classes, etc, but the setting more than makes up for it. But let us bask in the shared warmth of critical hit tables:

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/e3/DH_CH_energy_head.JPG

wow... that critical hit table is epic.

RPGuru1331
2009-01-07, 02:09 AM
Now, I like Exalted as much as the next guy, but.. this guy wants something where people die when they are killed, and Exalted is not the system I would use for 'lethality'.

OP, may I pose a question? What was wrong with the systems you liked, that you aren't running them? I am merely wonderring so we know how best to serve you.

Re: Dark HEresy. Frankly, I liked the system at first, and then I realized "Wait that's it? Humans? YOU MISSED THE POINT" and kept rolling. I like Warhammer 40k, as it's epicly absurd (And I am a fan of the epicly absurd. Hence, Exalted), but Dark HEresy, not so much. The crit table, for instance, captures the feel of the setting, but is a little aggravating for a PC in the game..

elliott20
2009-01-07, 02:44 AM
if you ask me, anything that even remotely touches WH40K is unsuitable for the OP's purpose. The setting itself implies that everything is epic, life sucks, and everything is SUPER GRIMDARK. While your characters are vulnerable, they are still dealing very very epic adventures. Just by virtue of being a player character, you're already leaps and bounds ahead of your average person to the point of being untouchable.

Warning: WH40K griping ahead

If you ask me, I find this kind of thing kind of silly. It's one thing to be pulpy, a little tongue in cheek about the setting. But when you take it to the level of the WH40K lore, it just feels like you're playing a game of excessive horror fueled by over abundance of teenage testosterone. It's to the point that every WH40K game I ever played I have a hard time taking serious because I just find the material so purposely stupid.

Personally, I still think Burning Empires does the whole Gothic Sci-Fi thing with much better style and flare.

Anyway, I would suggest the OP stays away from any D20 game if the OP really wants something where combat is usually a bad idea.

Darkameoba
2009-01-07, 07:45 AM
Wow, this is turning out to be quite a list of systems to try, its probably gonna take me and my group the better part of 2 months to try em all, thanks.

Also, is there a system that handles martial arts well? I've found most just apply arbitrary modifiers to hand to hand that half the time dont even make sense to the art they are suposed to represent.

elliott20, I agree with you, so far im loving d6 systems like shadowrun and silcore for combat.

RPGuru1331
2009-01-07, 07:52 AM
Also, is there a system that handles martial arts well? I've found most just apply arbitrary modifiers to hand to hand that half the time dont even make sense to the art they are suposed to represent.
Yes, but they're not systems that I would refer to as "lethal".


elliott20, I agree with you, so far im loving d6 systems like shadowrun and silcore for combat.

So, forgive a stupid question, but why not simply play them?


It's to the point that every WH40K game I ever played I have a hard time taking serious because I just find the material so purposely stupid.
Warhammer 40k isn't serious. That help at all?

Darkameoba
2009-01-07, 08:03 AM
OP, may I pose a question? What was wrong with the systems you liked, that you aren't running them? I am merely wonderring so we know how best to serve you.



sorry for the double post.

anyway, the reason im not runing those systems anymore is I dont find any of them handle fantasy roleplay in a "lethal" way. I still run them for their own genres and settings, but as far as generic fantasy goes, i have yet to find a system that satisfies.

Basicaly I want something that plays like shadowrun, the reason I don't just straight up use shadowrun is when it comes to magic it greatly limits mages and I feel that mages should have a wide veriety of spells to choose from, in shadowrun they just dont have the variety and the system doesnt feel like it supports utility spells to much (maybe im just missing something) I mean sure they only know a few spells but the way they are realy powerfull, the mechanics work that spells are far to lethal in a setting were everyone isnt carrying guns and decked out in cyberware. they dont realy have the veriety im looking for, but they work great in the core setting, and it only works for straight up mages, and falls short when it comes to any other archtype that has casting abilities.

Now that I think about it the magic system is the only thing keeping me from using shadowrun. perhaps I should take Shadowrun 3rd edition into the homebrew forum and retool the magic system to fit a fantasy world, and to work with other magic weilding arctypes such as clerics, druids, bards that sort of thing.

Artanis
2009-01-07, 12:56 PM
Also, is there a system that handles martial arts well? I've found most just apply arbitrary modifiers to hand to hand that half the time dont even make sense to the art they are suposed to represent.

Realistic-ish Martial arts? Because Exalted has martial arts in it, but like most stuff in that game, it will never be mistaken for "real-life" martial arts.

Satyr
2009-01-07, 03:21 PM
Basicaly I want something that plays like shadowrun, the reason I don't just straight up use shadowrun is when it comes to magic it greatly limits mages and I feel that mages should have a wide veriety of spells to choose from, in shadowrun they just dont have the variety and the system doesnt feel like it supports utility spells to much (maybe im just missing something) I mean sure they only know a few spells but the way they are realy powerfull, the mechanics work that spells are far to lethal in a setting were everyone isnt carrying guns and decked out in cyberware. they dont realy have the veriety im looking for, but they work great in the core setting, and it only works for straight up mages, and falls short when it comes to any other archtype that has casting abilities.

Again, you should certainly try out Witchcraft (http://www.edenstudios.net/witchcraft/WitchcraftCorebook.zip). One of the best magic systems ever, and in combination with All Flesh Must Be Eaten and Dungeons and Zombies, you have basically an extremely adaptable set of rules for almost any setting. Adaptability is one of the indicators of a system's quality, as the adaptability shows the lack of limitatiuons to your game. A good system should offer options, instead of narrowing them down. The Unisystem (the basic set of rules of some of the most underestimated roleplaying games out there) offers quite a few options. It's not Gurps, option-wise, but it is also much simpler and affords less calculating.
Gurps is the other alternative. It is certainly one of the better systems out there, but in comparison to Witchcraft, it isn't free, which is some kind of a drawback.


Also, is there a system that handles martial arts well? I've found most just apply arbitrary modifiers to hand to hand that half the time dont even make sense to the art they are suposed to represent.

Gurps Martial Arts is a great book about, well Martial Arts. It is closer to the realistic to cinematic, which in general makes the more enthralling and suspenseful than the whole fancy larger than life stuff, Taking the danger out of a combat is a great way to kill the thrill and suspense.
The Gurps Martial Arts are more based on fact than fiction which grants them an aura of greatness which completely surpasses the flashiness of lesser systems trough the sheer power of truth being stranger than fiction and plausibility always beats the superficiality of style over substance.

RPGuru1331
2009-01-07, 04:19 PM
Gurps Martial Arts is a great book about, well Martial Arts. It is closer to the realistic to cinematic, which in general makes the more enthralling and suspenseful than the whole fancy larger than life stuff, Taking the danger out of a combat is a great way to kill the thrill and suspense.
The Gurps Martial Arts are more based on fact than fiction which grants them an aura of greatness which completely surpasses the flashiness of lesser systems trough the sheer power of truth being stranger than fiction and plausibility always beats the superficiality of style over substance.

Ah yes. That cardinal sin of enjoying ourselves. How dare I let that get in the way of portraying reality in my RPGs, particularly since when I want to engage in realistic martial arts, I go engage in martial arts in the Real World.

Is it perhaps possible for you to be a little less condescending to us lesser beings who like larger then life games, please?

Jayabalard
2009-01-07, 04:37 PM
Is it perhaps possible for you to be a little less condescending to us lesser beings who like larger then life games, please?I don't see how he's being condescending in the slightest; he's extolling the virtues as he sees them of a particular game, and he's talking to someone who has seems to be pretty clearly asking for something that isn't larger than life. He emphasizes the things that the OP is looking for.

Satyr
2009-01-07, 05:42 PM
Is it perhaps possible for you to be a little less condescending to us lesser beings who like larger then life games, please?

Sorry, I did not inted to sound condescending in the slightest. I only tried to express my enthusiasm, that's all. I found that a game becomes more thrilling and suspenseful - which I see as major objectives of the game - when more is at risk and the single character is not untouchable; invincible characters can hurt the suspense of a game by being invincible and I also think that it is more elegant to not need hordes of faceless mooks or similarly over the top enemies to create a suspenseful opposition.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-01-07, 08:07 PM
All this talk about point-based systems and no one's plugged Mutants & Masterminds yet?

Admittedly, it's not the most "lethal" system out there without some changes (applying damage penalties to all rolls is a good start, or even keeping Power Levels low), but it's better at it than D&D. It's also massively versatile, despite being fluffed for superhero games. The character system gives good building blocks to make almost any kind of game, high (or low) fantasy included, though there will probably be plenty of powers that go unused in any given game.