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Morty
2009-01-03, 10:53 AM
Well, as in the title: what racial penalties or bonuses make little to no sense to you? The thread was inspired by pondering about stat modifiers, but other racial features qualify as well. In both editions too, though I kindly ask not to start yet another edition war here, m'kay?
I'll start with Charisma bonus for Goblins in 4th edition. It might fit, but with goblins presented as stinky, cowardly savages it really doesn't. On that note, most Cha penalties in 3rd edition don't make much sense either; "ugly" doesn't really justify being a worse paladin or bard. That said, Charisma is tricky when it comes to penalties and bonuses.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-03, 11:06 AM
I'll start with Charisma bonus for Goblins in 4th edition.
Heh. There's way too many 4E races with a charisma bonus. It's like the catch-all if they couldn't find anything else fitting.

That said, half-elven anything in 4E doesn't make sense either. If you want a race that's nothing like humans or elves, why on earth would you call it a human/elf hybrid?

Fostire
2009-01-03, 11:07 AM
Low charisma doesn't mean you're ugly, it means you are unlikeable. Of course, beauty is involved as well, but it's just a part of the whole, and not even a big part either.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-03, 11:08 AM
I agree with Cha penalties for Goblins and Gnolls in the 3rd Edition (Spellscales don;t make sense eitehr due to being down to their environment over anything else, and I think they look hideous while classing Gnolls as cute). I thought Str made more sense then Dex for Gnolls in the 4th Edition as well). To be fair, I tend to see how you view other people (which suggests Cha from likeabilty) as subjective anyway. In the 1st Edition, the Dwarven Cha penalty didn;t apply to other Dwarves, for instance.

jcsw
2009-01-03, 11:09 AM
A Kobold's minus four to strength? Minus two to constitution?

A race of miners has low str and con? What?

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-03, 11:13 AM
My version has +2 Dex and Cha, -2 Str and Con, 40' movement, Darkvison 60' and +2 to Search, Trapmaking and Mining checks (I kept the Str and Con penalties due to their small size and the fact that they are meant to be relatively fragile).

Saintjebus
2009-01-03, 11:16 AM
It was my understanding that Charisma represents force of personality, rather that likeability or attractiveness. For example, sorcerers don't cast spells with their square jaw and long wavy hair, they cast them from their inner strength. Though in that sense, charisma penalties to dwarves still don't make sense.

Morty
2009-01-03, 11:18 AM
Heh. There's way too many 4E races with a charisma bonus. It's like the catch-all if they couldn't find anything else fitting.

That's true, but for goblins it makes even less sense. They're probably on par with Tieflings in this regard.


Low charisma doesn't mean you're ugly, it means you are unlikeable. Of course, beauty is involved as well, but it's just a part of the whole, and not even a big part either.

"Unlikeable" is a behavior, not a racial trait. Among themselves, goblins and orcs convince, trick and intimidate each other just fine.


A Kobold's minus four to strength? Minus two to constitution?

With Con I can agree, but it's rather hard to be strong when you're fifty centimeters tall.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-03, 11:26 AM
They are listed as being a bit heavier then Halflings, though, and Kobolds don't look fat (unless the pictured had been airbrushed first:smalltongue:).

Tengu_temp
2009-01-03, 11:36 AM
I think that charisma bonus for tieflings makes perfect sense - it was stupid that they had a charisma penalty in 3.x. Charisma bonus for goblins makes absolutely no sense, though - I'd probably give them +2 dex and con.



That said, half-elven anything in 4E doesn't make sense either. If you want a race that's nothing like humans or elves, why on earth would you call it a human/elf hybrid?

Half-elves are both very social and possess a lot of inspiring determination, hence the charisma bonus. The determination and natural sturdiness of crossbreeds give them constitution bonus.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-03, 11:51 AM
Half-elves are both very social and possess a lot of inspiring determination, hence the charisma bonus. The determination and natural sturdiness of crossbreeds give them constitution bonus.

"Half-elves are both very awkward and possess a lot of despiriting shyness, hence the charisma penalty. The dispossessedness and natural weakness of crossbreeds give them constitution penalty."

That made exactly as much sense as your justification.

Ganurath
2009-01-03, 11:55 AM
A Kobold's minus four to strength? Minus two to constitution?

A race of miners has low str and con? What?A race that lives in temperate forests has bonuses to mining? What?

hewhosaysfish
2009-01-03, 12:06 PM
Charisma doesn't know what it's supposed to be: either it represents this much referred to "force of personality" (which means orcs are meek and timid) or it reflects physical attractiveness (which means ice devils are drop-dead gorgeous).
Nowhere is is this more obviously stupid than in the tieflings and half-fiends: One of those sexy, sexy ice devils has a Cha of 20. If it gets lucky with a human and is unlucky enough to have a sprog then the half-fiend child will have the somewhat lower Cha of 12 (assuming average stats). If the half-fiends lives and loves with human-kind, the fiendish blood will be diluted further, eventually producing tieflings with an average Cha of 8 - below that of an average human. Futher generations, further dilution, and the ice devil's descendants are now largely indistinguishable from normal humans (give or take a Fiendish Heritage feat or two) and the average Charisma has gone back up!
Gah!

SurlySeraph
2009-01-03, 12:11 PM
Charisma bonuses for fiends and penalties for tieflings make sense to me. Demons are big, imposing, impressive, and terrifying. Tieflings are too human-like to be awe-inspiring, but the demon heritage makes them seem inherently creepy and unlikeable.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-03, 12:11 PM
Charisma doesn't know what it's supposed to be:

Precisely. And, for that matter, neither does wisdom.

That's because both had a clear definition in 1E and 2E, but this definition made the scores useless for many character types, making them obvious dump stats. And so they got other meanings tacked on later, because apparently it's wrong for certain classes to have an obvious dump stat.

Tengu_temp
2009-01-03, 01:16 PM
"Half-elves are both very awkward and possess a lot of despiriting shyness, hence the charisma penalty. The dispossessedness and natural weakness of crossbreeds give them constitution penalty."

That made exactly as much sense as your justification.

The reason they have a bonus to charisma is the same why they had a bonus to diplomacy in 3.5. And crossbreeds usually are tougher, just look at mules.

This makes enough sense for me. And I like 4e half-elves much more than 3.5 ones, who were so uninteresting and mechanically crappy that almost nobody played them.

Harperfan7
2009-01-03, 01:30 PM
“Well, as in the title: what racial penalties or bonuses make little to no sense to you? The thread was inspired by pondering about stat modifiers, but other racial features qualify as well. In both editions too, though I kindly ask not to start yet another edition war here, m'kay?
I'll start with Charisma bonus for Goblins in 4th edition. It might fit, but with goblins presented as stinky, cowardly savages it really doesn't. On that note, most Cha penalties in 3rd edition don't make much sense either; "ugly" doesn't really justify being a worse paladin or bard. That said, Charisma is tricky when it comes to penalties and bonuses.”

“It was my understanding that Charisma represents force of personality, rather that likeability or attractiveness. For example, sorcerers don't cast spells with their square jaw and long wavy hair, they cast them from their inner strength. Though in that sense, charisma penalties to dwarves still don't make sense.”

You guys should check out my "Revised Races 3.5" over in homebrew.
I made them all make sense (to me at least).

Mikeavelli
2009-01-03, 01:30 PM
Charisma doesn't know what it's supposed to be: either it represents this much referred to "force of personality" (which means orcs are meek and timid) or it reflects physical attractiveness (which means ice devils are drop-dead gorgeous).
Nowhere is is this more obviously stupid than in the tieflings and half-fiends: One of those sexy, sexy ice devils has a Cha of 20. If it gets lucky with a human and is unlucky enough to have a sprog then the half-fiend child will have the somewhat lower Cha of 12 (assuming average stats). If the half-fiends lives and loves with human-kind, the fiendish blood will be diluted further, eventually producing tieflings with an average Cha of 8 - below that of an average human. Futher generations, further dilution, and the ice devil's descendants are now largely indistinguishable from normal humans (give or take a Fiendish Heritage feat or two) and the average Charisma has gone back up!
Gah!


It's like the Uncanny Valley.

But with demons instead of Robots.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-03, 01:37 PM
And crossbreeds usually are tougher, just look at mules.
Mules are sterile. Great choice of metaphor, there :smallbiggrin:

Starsinger
2009-01-03, 01:40 PM
Heh. There's way too many 4E races with a charisma bonus. It's like the catch-all if they couldn't find anything else fitting.

And of course, 3e and 3.5 had the inverse problem, most races had a charisma penalty if they couldn't find anything else fitting. Usually along the lines of "This race is cranky and has no friends" like Dwarves. Because not having friends makes you worse at harnessing inborn magical power or playing the flute or dancing.

Morty
2009-01-03, 02:45 PM
And of course, 3e and 3.5 had the inverse problem, most races had a charisma penalty if they couldn't find anything else fitting. Usually along the lines of "This race is cranky and has no friends" like Dwarves. Because not having friends makes you worse at harnessing inborn magical power or playing the flute or dancing.

In other words, Charisma is universal hole-filler when it comes to stat modifiers.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-03, 04:37 PM
Elves -2 to con. If they live for so long - hundreds of years - why do they get a minus to the health stat?

I'm also a little confused about the +2 con to gnomes. Yeah, they're like a relative to dwarves, but gnomes don't seem like the tough type.

TempusCCK
2009-01-03, 04:38 PM
A Kobold's minus four to strength? Minus two to constitution?

A race of miners has low str and con? What?

Children were often highly sought after for mine work because they were small and could get at places others couldn't. Get enough children in there chipping away...

Spiryt
2009-01-03, 04:41 PM
Elves -2 to con. If they live for so long - hundreds of years - why do they get a minus to the health stat?


I think that's the frail and and generally subtle body. Not resistnat to brutal treatment.

And they can live very long, no one said that many of them manage to do so.

So to me it kinda make sense, though one may argue that frail build should hurt strenght too.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-03, 04:53 PM
I think that's the frail and and generally subtle body. Not resistnat to brutal treatment.

And they can live very long, no one said that many of them manage to do so.

So to me it kinda make sense, though one may argue that frail build should hurt strenght too.

Even so, if your race has a weak immune system your average life expectancy should be a lot less that several hundred years. As for weak strength, there is a sub race of elves that gets +2 int, -2 wis (in addition to the other modifiers).

I also think orcs (half orcs too) should get +2 con. They are brutal fighters meant to be tough, and their racial abilities just don't make them as tough as the other races.

Orzel
2009-01-03, 05:19 PM
Well about 90% of the half elves I encountered were either:

buliled by humans as a child for having pointy ears
stole other people's girlfriends
had an obsessive rival
was a loner who stayed on the fringe of society
was a big name in the economc or political world


so 4e's Con and Cha made sense for talking yourself out of fights and taking the hits if you failed.

AslanCross
2009-01-03, 05:27 PM
A Kobold's minus four to strength? Minus two to constitution?

A race of miners has low str and con? What?

This. It makes Kobold PCs insidiously difficult to build if you don't like being shafted.

I don't really like the Warforged penalty to Wisdom. The Charisma hit is understandable, but I don't see why they can't be creatures of instinct.

There's also the disparity between Half-Fiend's Charisma bonus and the Tiefling's penalty. If there's more wrong about you, you're more likable than if there's less that's wrong about you? :smallconfused:

Panda-s1
2009-01-03, 05:29 PM
Well according to the 4e PHB "Charisma (Cha) measures your force of personality, persuasiveness, and leadership." In other words, Charisma has nothing to do with your physical attractiveness in 4e, much to the delight of many players who noticed this (and to the chagrin of some, I suppose).

And on the half-elven thing, I'm glad they finally got stat bonuses. The Cha bonus makes sense 'cause they seem to get along with other people very well, something that's been said for a long time now. From an outside perspective, many multiracial people learn to look at things from more than one viewpoint having to grow up between two cultures so it makes perfect sense for half-elves to be the negotiators of D&D.

Zeful
2009-01-03, 05:29 PM
Well, as in the title: what racial penalties or bonuses make little to no sense to you? The thread was inspired by pondering about stat modifiers, but other racial features qualify as well. In both editions too, though I kindly ask not to start yet another edition war here, m'kay?
I'll start with Charisma bonus for Goblins in 4th edition. It might fit, but with goblins presented as stinky, cowardly savages it really doesn't. On that note, most Cha penalties in 3rd edition don't make much sense either; "ugly" doesn't really justify being a worse paladin or bard. That said, Charisma is tricky when it comes to penalties and bonuses.

How about all of them? They could make sense if they weren't racial traits but National traits instead. A human living in dwarf lands can't use stonecunning (ignoring the last few pages of the Description chapter anyway)? They've lived around it literally all their lives, how can they not tell if stone is going to give way?

Kris Strife
2009-01-03, 06:04 PM
I don't really like the Warforged penalty to Wisdom. The Charisma hit is understandable, but I don't see why they can't be creatures of instinct.

Did you ever watch Star Trek: TNG? Data. He lacks the animal portion of the brain that controls instincts and reflexes. Beyond not having evolution to give said instincts, they dont feel pain, so why develop them?

shadow_archmagi
2009-01-03, 06:25 PM
Did you ever watch Star Trek: TNG? Data. He lacks the animal portion of the brain that controls instincts and reflexes. Beyond not having evolution to give said instincts, they dont feel pain, so why develop them?

Instincts=preprogramming.

Kris Strife
2009-01-03, 07:09 PM
Instincts=preprogramming.

Hm... Kinda, preprogramming would still have a train of thought to it. Keep in mind though, warforged are accidentally sentient...

Dixieboy
2009-01-03, 09:01 PM
Anything in bastards and bloodlines

+ Int to half orcs my ass D:

Thurbane
2009-01-03, 09:25 PM
[3.5] 1/2 Orcs get +2 STR, but -2 INT and -2 CHA; the only core race that gets two penalties.

Apparently this is because STR is such a kickass ability to get a bonus to. Can someone then explain Wood Elf (+2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 CHA) or Skarn (+2 STR, -2 DEX) to me? :smallfrown:

Zeful
2009-01-03, 09:28 PM
[3.5] 1/2 Orcs get +2 STR, but -2 INT and -2 CHA; the only core race that gets two penalties.

Apparently this is because STR is such a kickass ability to get a bonus to. Can someone then explain Wood Elf (+2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 CHA) or Skarn (+2 STR, -2 DEX) to me? :smallfrown:

In that vein, why don't humans get a minus one Int penalty for every other human within 30ft. Our own history demonstrates that we get dumber in large groups.

Kris Strife
2009-01-03, 09:45 PM
In that vein, why don't humans get a minus one Int penalty for every other human within 30ft. Our own history demonstrates that we get dumber in large groups.

The average intelligence of a mob is X/Y where X is the IQ of the dumbest member and Y is the number of people in it.

Thurbane
2009-01-03, 09:58 PM
Charisma doesn't know what it's supposed to be: either it represents this much referred to "force of personality" (which means orcs are meek and timid) or it reflects physical attractiveness (which means ice devils are drop-dead gorgeous).
Indeed. And well said.

shadow_archmagi
2009-01-03, 10:17 PM
Well, most orcs ARE timid cowards. Much like real men who are cowards, they express it by carrying a weapon and being violent.

Ever seen an orc diplomat? No?
Well, surely you've heard the legendary Martin Luther Warhammer? Not to mention their entire race has a reputation for lying and being untrustworthy (so that's a penalty to CHA right there)

There's a REASON that the orcs are always being dominated by something or another. It's because no orc ever wins a conversation.

AslanCross
2009-01-03, 10:52 PM
Did you ever watch Star Trek: TNG? Data. He lacks the animal portion of the brain that controls instincts and reflexes. Beyond not having evolution to give said instincts, they dont feel pain, so why develop them?

Well, Warforged don't have a "Wisdom --" score (any creature in D&D, by definition, has instinct and self-will--Wis and Cha--no matter how little), so they are capable of developing instinct, just that they're somehow bad at it.

What I'm saying is, if zombies aren't portrayed with a decrepit Wisdom score (it changes to 10 upon the application of the template, whether it was higher or lower), why are Warforged (or any other sentient race) penalized it? Zombies don't have a functioning brains, anatomically present or not.

thegurullamen
2009-01-03, 11:05 PM
What I'm saying is, if zombies aren't portrayed with a decrepit Wisdom score (it changes to 10 upon the application of the template, whether it was higher or lower), why are Warforged (or any other sentient race) penalized it?

Because the attribute system is inherently and irrevocably flawed?

Charisma's a joke, Wisdom's hard to pin down, Intelligence bleeds into a lot of the other attributes, Con's vague, Dex is both under- and over-utilized and Strength....is the most straightforward and not so screwed up (if at all.)

Too bad even Fax's in-depth rewrite isn't invasive enough to fix this system's screw ups. They're just too ingrained.