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Simanos
2009-01-03, 07:32 PM
I need some help with selecting feats and skills (and maybe other stuff) for a Barbarian who wants to be a Dragon Disciple. He might be an NPC, but he might become a PC.
The plan is to start with a Barbarian level then get a Sorcerer level (and truestrike) and then 3 more Barbarian levels. Then 10 levels of DD.
He might be Half Giant (no enlarge then), though you could convince me to go for human instead (or something else). Because of the class switching I'm really not able to decide on skill point spending and feat selection.
I'll add more questions later.

EDIT:
I'm sorry, I forgot to say I'm going with basic stuff only like what's in SRD pretty much so no Duskblades, etc...
It doesn't have to be super optimised, but not stupid weak either.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-01-03, 10:21 PM
Replace Sorcerer with Duskblade from PH2, you won't miss out on any BAB and you'll still get True Strike.

ShadowFighter15
2009-01-03, 10:52 PM
Duskblades are INT-based spontaneous casters though, so if the character doesn't have much going on upstairs, you might be in a bit of trouble in regards to true strike.

Glimbur
2009-01-03, 10:56 PM
Dragon Disciple also requires nontrivial amounts of skills. Bard will get you those skill points as well as being a spont caster. The problem is just one level of Bard only gets you cantrips.

UserClone
2009-01-03, 11:00 PM
What about Hexblade/Barbarian? Heck, even straight Hexblade (provided you've got Mearls's unofficial fix). What are you trying to get out of barbarian?

Simanos
2009-01-04, 12:12 PM
I'm sorry, I forgot to say I'm going with basic stuff only like what's in SRD pretty much so no Duskblades, etc...
It doesn't have to be super optimised, but not stupid weak either.
It was going to be Fighter/DD, but then I thought the Barbarian fitted better with the "savageness" of DD (and the wings). RP call.
Bard doesn't ever get True Strike I think, so I'm stuck with Sorcerer, though it's mostly cause I find a singing barbarian half-dragon a bit silly/sillier.
I mainly need help with the skill choices (and feat suggestions would be nice).

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 01:05 PM
Could you ask your DM rework the class a bit? I mean, at least give you more uses of the Breath Weapon as you level up (you get Dragon Apotheosis; have you ever heard of a Dragon with the power to breathe only once per day?) with infinite uses (with 1d4 turns interval or so, as with True Dragons; it's still weaker than their breath weapons) at Dragon Disciple level 10, and at least ½ your full HD in damage. I mean, you're still doing less damage than a Wizard does with a level 5 slot with your breath weapon at level 20... Also, you should probably gain at least additional spells known (although additional spell levels would also make all kinds of sense, but not pushing it); at least ask for increases to your caster level (and pick Enlarge Person). And damnit, why doesn't the damn pile have full BAB? I mean, seriously.

Also, if you multiclass from Barbarian, you'll never have enough Rages to use it constantly. I suggest you ask your DM if you can take Extra Rage [CW]-feat, which gives you 2 more Rage-uses per day (it's printed in Complete Warrior); 5 levels of Barbarian and one-two Extra Rages would mean that you'd actually have Rage-uses to speak of.


Regarding the feats, you'll have lots of Strength but will be losing BAB, so I strongly suggest Tripping. This requires Int 13 though (or Wolf-Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) over the standard Jaguar-Totem; although, Dragon-Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#dragonTotemClassFeatur es) would probably make the most sense here; unfortunately it kinda sucks); however, it's not related to BAB so all that matters is your Str (which you'll have plenty of) and it's a very efficient means of attack. Other feats of interest:
-Power Attack (duh; especially good with tripped opponents as their AC suffers)
-Combat Reflexes (extra attacks)
-Cleave (ditto; Power Attack + Improved Trip drops people pretty efficiently anyways)
-Improved Initiative
-Quick Draw (to use Rods of Metamagic: Quicken without giving up attacks)
-Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
-Flyby Attack (as you qualify; less useful for you than normal characters though since you don't cast offensive spells)

Now you've taken pretty much all worthwhile feats in the PHB. Also, remember that you have two level 1 spells. The other one I'd suggest: Enlarge Person. It'd a very potent spell as it increases your reach in addition to adding to your Str. The drawback is that by RAW, you couldn't use it anymore once you get Dragon Apotheosis. Since that's ridiculously idiotic (becoming worse as you level-up), as your DM to handwave that; add a statement like "you can still be affected by spells as if you were of your previous type if you wish to". Otherwise, it's an actual drawback unless you acquire means to use Alter Self.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Multiattack is worthwhile. You can do secondary Natural Attacks after primary weapon attacks, all at -2. Of course, if you're wielding a weapon, doing Claws doesn't work. If you can come up with a way around that, Multiattack can be good. Otherwise, +3 to your Bite isn't worth it; just do it at -5 and profit if it hits, ignore it otherwise.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-04, 01:09 PM
I'm sorry, I forgot to say I'm going with basic stuff only like what's in SRD pretty much so no Duskblades, etc...
It doesn't have to be super optimised, but not stupid weak either.
It was going to be Fighter/DD, but then I thought the Barbarian fitted better with the "savageness" of DD (and the wings). RP call.
Bard doesn't ever get True Strike I think, so I'm stuck with Sorcerer, though it's mostly cause I find a singing barbarian half-dragon a bit silly/sillier.
I mainly need help with the skill choices (and feat suggestions would be nice).

A bit off-topic, but a Bardbarian is actually a very fun idea if you play it right - Bards don't have to sing, after all. The Vikings had their Skalds - instead of singing, said Bardbarian goes into battle screaming a war-chant at the top of his lungs, and voila! A non-silly pairing.

On-topic - beyond meeting the prerequisites for DD, barbarians don't have a lot of points going for them because they usually dump Int. I'd make sure to take advantage of having Spot on your skill list though, it's not very common for primary melee classes.

woodenbandman
2009-01-04, 01:18 PM
Let me just say Wraithstrike >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True strike. So take this combination: Sorceror (perhaps battle sorceror) 4/Barbarian some, and then find some way to persist wraithstrike if you want to completely slaughter every****ingthing. Touch attacks are the boss.

Wraithstrike, by the way, makes all your attacks touch attacks, and you can still power attack with them, so you can basically go all like super saiyan and just wtfpwn everything.

The Glyphstone
2009-01-04, 01:19 PM
Let me just say Wraithstrike >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True strike. So take this combination: Sorceror (perhaps battle sorceror) 4/Barbarian some, and then find some way to persist wraithstrike if you want to completely slaughter every****ingthing. Touch attacks are the boss.

Wraithstrike, by the way, makes all your attacks touch attacks, and you can still power attack with them, so you can basically go all like super saiyan and just wtfpwn everything.

Did you miss the "SRD only" part of his comments?

Simanos
2009-01-04, 05:08 PM
Yeah, no to wraithstrike sorry. I feel that they purposely unbalance the game with each new book they make to force people to buy the new stuff. I stick to the basics.

Thanks for the help guys, but I'm still a bit confused on the skills front. The DD and the Barbarian have almost no skill in common (Sorcerer level isn't helping either). Spot isn't in Barbarian's list, Listen is, but both are in DD list. It would make sense to get both from RP perspective since the DD gets blindsense at 5th (building up to it), but it is totally counter to optimizing. I guess I should get some survival ranks (should I get track feat? DD should give scent feat, no?) and try for some synergy from DD level access to knowledge(all). I wonder if I should leave knowledge(arcana) to 8 or keep raising it (probably no one else in the party would have it). I think I'll pass on spellcraft, but search fits nicely with the tuned senses motif. My other idea is to dump skill points in speak language for the hell of it (it actually is a class skill for DD, bard influence heh).

The social skills are all over the place. Bluff from Sorcerer, Intimidate (and handle animal lol) from Barbarian and Diplomacy, Escape Artist and Gather Information from DD. Impossible to focus on something and Able Learner is out of reach probably. Hmm, what about Concentration?
And then how to spend skill points (and feats) without mistakes level by level. The path of conservation. I tried 1st level Sorcerer then 4 Barbarian, but I found the 1st Barbarian then 1 Sorcerer then 3 Barbarian better. 4 Barbarian first then 1 Sorcerer didn't seem "even" better, just different (and probably worse). I'm definitely pushing for DD 10th as fast as possible, no delays.

So let's assume I go with half-giant. What spell should I get instead of enlarge (damn type restriction). I've also thought of getting improved trip or some other feat (disarm) to use the size bonus, but I'd rather not go the Int_13 and Combat Expertise way. Improved Sunder (Power Attack tree, no sweat) is pretty cool, it counts weapon size too, so good for my Large Greataxe. Though trip is better, with a pole-weapon for reach and more universally applicable (unarmed enemies). I guess I'm going for the Hulk-Smash hero more than finesse :p

PS:
-Combat Reflexes (extra attacks)
What do you mean? Why get Combat Reflexes? It doesn't lead to any other feat. It's not "that" useful. And my DEX bonus will be +1 (half-giant) or +2 max.

Simanos
2009-01-07, 11:18 AM
I just want to add that I'm using PCGen5141 to create characters. It seems a pretty good program. Any others you can suggest?

I could upload the file for this character too. Does this forum allow that or do I need hosting or something?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-01-07, 11:30 AM
Yeah, no to wraithstrike sorry. I feel that they purposely unbalance the game with each new book they make to force people to buy the new stuff. I stick to the basics.

Thanks for the help guys, but I'm still a bit confused on the skills front. The DD and the Barbarian have almost no skill in common (Sorcerer level isn't helping either). Spot isn't in Barbarian's list, Listen is, but both are in DD list. It would make sense to get both from RP perspective since the DD gets blindsense at 5th (building up to it), but it is totally counter to optimizing. I guess I should get some survival ranks (should I get track feat? DD should give scent feat, no?) and try for some synergy from DD level access to knowledge(all). I wonder if I should leave knowledge(arcana) to 8 or keep raising it (probably no one else in the party would have it). I think I'll pass on spellcraft, but search fits nicely with the tuned senses motif. My other idea is to dump skill points in speak language for the hell of it (it actually is a class skill for DD, bard influence heh).

The social skills are all over the place. Bluff from Sorcerer, Intimidate (and handle animal lol) from Barbarian and Diplomacy, Escape Artist and Gather Information from DD. Impossible to focus on something and Able Learner is out of reach probably. Hmm, what about Concentration?
And then how to spend skill points (and feats) without mistakes level by level. The path of conservation. I tried 1st level Sorcerer then 4 Barbarian, but I found the 1st Barbarian then 1 Sorcerer then 3 Barbarian better. 4 Barbarian first then 1 Sorcerer didn't seem "even" better, just different (and probably worse). I'm definitely pushing for DD 10th as fast as possible, no delays.

So let's assume I go with half-giant. What spell should I get instead of enlarge (damn type restriction). I've also thought of getting improved trip or some other feat (disarm) to use the size bonus, but I'd rather not go the Int_13 and Combat Expertise way. Improved Sunder (Power Attack tree, no sweat) is pretty cool, it counts weapon size too, so good for my Large Greataxe. Though trip is better, with a pole-weapon for reach and more universally applicable (unarmed enemies). I guess I'm going for the Hulk-Smash hero more than finesse :p

PS:
-Combat Reflexes (extra attacks)
What do you mean? Why get Combat Reflexes? It doesn't lead to any other feat. It's not "that" useful. And my DEX bonus will be +1 (half-giant) or +2 max.

If you're going half-Giant, then you have a problem with a +1 LA. However, if you dip a level of PsiWar, you can grab Expansion which does what you want without the suck.

Simanos
2009-01-07, 12:12 PM
If you're going half-Giant, then you have a problem with a +1 LA. However, if you dip a level of PsiWar, you can grab Expansion which does what you want without the suck.
Worth a thought.
Though we haven't used psionics yet so I don't want to use it first as DM. If one of the players asks to make a psionic character then I'd feel better about it, but as it is I don't even know the rules about it at all (not even a glance).
I realize Half-Giant is a psionic race, but that only means part of its potential is wasted if we keep psionics out. So I'm not cheating the players much. I could go with Goliath which is better suited too, but that would be even more away from core. I could also do a Human if pressed and get enlarge person (and true strike). Perhaps that is the best after all.

Simanos
2009-01-14, 02:09 PM
I've decided to go with Survival, Listen, Knowledge(Arcana), Handle Animal (5 ranks only), Ride. Good?

I've noticed my Familiar gets a lot of hitpoints this way. Level 15 I have over 200 so it has over 100. Should I keep it or how can I change the ability to another one? If I keep it what should I get? The toad is only good for the start, the bat is nice and flies like me, but the raven can talk and that seems the best ability of all, correct?

Skaven
2009-01-14, 02:34 PM
Human will help you with the skill point issue.

Also worth asking your DM if you can have bonus from skill focus count as ranks for the purpose of meeting PrC requirements. Its something my DM always did, and in turn its a house rule I have always used in my games. It would not be unbalancing, and if you are having trouble you can use the extra feat that humans get to relieve the skill requirements on one skill, the feat will save you 6 skill points this way.

Simanos
2009-01-14, 03:12 PM
That doesn't sound OP as long as it doesn't allow you to go over max ranks.
That would mean you can get DD after level 2 instead of 5 :smallcool:
Isn't there also a feat that gives you 4 skill points to use as you like? NOt core, but...

Darrin
2009-01-14, 03:29 PM
I've decided to go with Survival, Listen, Knowledge(Arcana), Handle Animal (5 ranks only), Ride. Good?

I've noticed my Familiar gets a lot of hitpoints this way. Level 15 I have over 200 so it has over 100. Should I keep it or how can I change the ability to another one? If I keep it what should I get? The toad is only good for the start, the bat is nice and flies like me, but the raven can talk and that seems the best ability of all, correct?

It depends on if you are able to put any points into UMD. If so, then speech means the familiar can activate spell-trigger or command word items.

If not, then put some thought into what skills you want the familiar to be rolling. A familiar essentially gives you a free reroll or a +2 "aid another" bonus on some skills.

Have you considered switching your Ride skill for Tumble? Check the Cityscape web enhancement for Skilled City Dweller:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

Dragon #280, #318, and #341 also provide some alternate familiars with different bonuses. Some examples:

Hedgehog: +1 natural armor (DMG)
Fox/Squirrel: +2 Ref saves (Dragon #280)
Composognathus: +3 Hide (Dragon #318)
Rhamphorhynchus: +3 Initiative (Dragon #318)
Crow: +2 Fort saves (Dragon #341)
Dark Chanting Goshawk: +2 Will saves (Dragon #341)
Dog: +3 Sense Motive (Dragon #341)
Flying Fox: +3 Sleight of Hand (Dragon #341)
Monkey: +3 Tumble (Dragon #341)

ericgrau
2009-01-14, 04:24 PM
I actually optimized this before and found that taking dragon disciple was THE best option for melee characters in core. My final build was fighter 12 / spontaneous caster 1 / dragon disciple 7. I forget when the best time to take the first dragon disciple level was, but I think it was before fighter 12. I dunno what the best combo would be for a barbarian, though I could check that and the proper switching level when I get home.

As a guess I'd take DD as soon as you can and then go to level 4 in it. Then finish up barbarian at level 11 for greater rage, then go to level 7 in DD. For the last level I dunno. On one hand taking DD all the way to 10 and doing so as early as possible gives you wings sooner, OTOH the wings are still pretty late and you can always get flight from a magic item even before the wings are available.

A familiar from only 1 caster level sounds like it would be too fragile. I'd just skip it.

The best martial core race I found was grimlock, but that'd delay your entry into DD by 2 levels. Plus his blindness/blindsight might be a help or a hindrance. Otherwise dwarves, orcs and lizardfolk are good, but I dunno if you want them.

Keld Denar
2009-01-14, 05:37 PM
There was also a Hummingbird in a Dragon Mag, I think it was also posted online somewhere. Its gives a +4 init, which is 1 better than the Rhamphorhynchus. And a familiar at CL1 wouldn't be that fragile, hp wise, since a familar has 1/2 its masters HP, regardless of his effective sorc level, and this guy is gonna have good HD plus a good con.

Hmmm, Dragon Disc from SRD only...

Psychic Warrior would seriously probably be the best option. Between Claws of the Beast, and the Vampiric Claws, along with Hustle and Expansion, PsyWar is really a strong base.

If you don't, and I can understand that, I'd say probably something like Ranger1/Barb4/Sorc1 would be a good start. Ranger gives you the Spot you need, along with Track and the Survival skill, allowing you to double as a guide if needed.

I don't quite know what your fascination with True Strike is. Its really not good in the fact that it requires a standard action to cast, and then only applies to 1 single attack that has to be made in the next round. Even with a full Power Attack on that hit, you'd probably be better off attacking in both rounds, especially if you can get a full attack in at least one of them. Now, we could do something about this, but it requires a little questionable rules usage, or going out of core. A Lesser MM Rod of Quicken (~13,000g from the DMG) allows you to Quicken 3 spells of 3rd level or lower per day. This would allow you to cast TS as a swift action, which would still let you charge, move + attack, or full attack. Unfortunately, there is questionable "wield" requirements. Either ignore them and keep it belted (requires DM approval, not like its THAT over powered, unlike say...a Bashing Shield :P), or purchase a Caster Glove from Complete Mage, I think. Its basically a Glove of Storing that allows the wearer to use a stored wand or rod as if wielded. Kind of steep at 12,000 g though, making it abou 25,000g to pull off, but would allow more free access to TS.

Another thing to consider is your Breath Weapon. At once/day, it really sucks, but there is a feat somewhere called Draconic Breath, which changes it to a 1d4 round cooldown. Once you took that, you could get a few other breath related feats, the best of which would be Quicken Breath (Dracinomicon, allow you to breath AND full attack) which adds recharge time, and Entangling Exhalation (Dragon Magic, which 1/2s your damage, but opponents who fail the save are Entangled, which is a debuff that helps you attack). Unfortunately, there is nothing in the SRD that will help your breath weapon not suck.

So, in conclusion, Barb1/Ranger1/Barb3/Sorc1/DD10 would be about the best way to get into it. You might have to buy a couple cross class ranks in spot, but the single level in Ranger allows you to get it to the level you need to get into DD. Alternately, you could swap the first 2 levels around to net more skill points, but you'd be trading 8 skill points for 2 hp (12 + 4.5 = 16.5 vs 8 + 6.5 = 14.5).

Oh, another thing, if you do take multiattack, try to get a weapon that doesn't occupy a body slot. Complete Scoundrel has a bunch of these, but you don't have it. Something like a Weighted Cloak would allow you to get a full attack with it PLUS take a Claw/Claw/Bite routine, with all 3 natural weapons at -2 which doesn't mess up your iterative attacks.

Thats about the best I can think of with the limits you've put on.

ericgrau
2009-01-14, 09:28 PM
On the rod of lesser quicken: You can put your two-handed weapon in one hand as a free action, quick draw the rod, cast the spell, drop the rod onto the ground, then fight two-handed again. Or instead of dropping it you could put it away while doing a normal move + attack. All this requires the rod to be a "weaponlike object", and since a wand qualifies as such the rod should too. Just get a sheathe for it or shove it in your belt.

The main obstacle that kept me from suggesting this is that quicken + spontaneous casters don't mix. And he's stuck mostly with the SRD. He could take a second prepared arcane casting class, but that seems like a waste.

I'd be a sorc with true strike, only use it whenever he gets lucky enough to have a buffing round, and call it a day.

Keld Denar
2009-01-14, 09:32 PM
Metamagic Rods interact fine with spontaneous casting. They don't increase the casting time, just like they don't increase the spell level. Its essentially free metamagic, 3 times a day. The only restraint is that you can never apply more than one MM Rod to a given spell, which I think is explicitly spelled out in the DMG near their entries. So a Quickened TS is certainly possible for a 1st level caster.

TS still isn't that good of a spell though.

Oh, I just though of another thing, but again, not core. Could you put a MM Rod in a Wand Chamber? Granted, rods are typically a lot bigger than wands, but then again, in a greatsword, you've got quite a bit of room to play around with...

ericgrau
2009-01-14, 10:43 PM
Sorry, no rod of lesser quicken for sorcs:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods

A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.

Simanos
2009-01-15, 06:44 AM
Interesting. That 1 Ranger level thing is under consideration. I'm not trying to cheese it, so it has to fit with the theme from an RP perspective. How does Ranger fit in with a flying immune to fire dragon-like barbarian (probably with flying mount too)?

The Familiar is probably going to be Raven for the coolness of having a talking agent (with near 100 hitpoints) and damn those other minor bonuses :smallcool:
I can't find any way to replace the familiar ability and it's pretty cool anyway.

Why take Tumble instead of Ride? Even if Tumble was a class skill. For avoiding AoO? Tumble IS pretty cool. I considered it myself from the start. Can you elaborate your reasoning?

The True Strike thing is mainly a gimmick. It's for before charging in. Flight helps to choose fights too. Plus it has no somatic components. Probably gonna have wands of shield and mage armor too. What spells do you suggest then?

Godna
2009-01-15, 07:29 AM
See if you can obtain a wand of tensor's transformation to help with the base attack bonus http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm

It might fit with your barbarian rage concept i mean if your going to lose the ability to cast anyway the extra bonuses should be an obvious choice.

edit: well not a wand(its a 6th level spell and wand max is 4) but something that could let you use it anyway.

Keld Denar
2009-01-15, 07:38 AM
Ranger and Barbarian are both rather similar, fluff-wise. Both are wildernessy kind of characters. They have a lot of class skills in common, which means out of combat, they both fill similar roles. That would explain enough to me why they are the same.

As far as alternative spells, well, I can't think of any in core that would be good alternatives. Benign Transposition from the Spell Compendium would be AWESOME though, especially with a familar that flies. You can send it places and then swap locations with it. If you could find some way to quicken BT, you could even use it as kind of a psudo pounce, allowing you to make full attacks against things that you don't start near. In core, there just arn't any good swift action 1st level spells that would really fit. Your standard action is too valuable, IMO, to be spent on gimicks, but thats how I play, YMMV.

But then again, I wouldn't even do something like this. If I wanted to play a slightly magic using warrior, I'd probably go with something like a standard gish build or that Suel Arcanamach build I posted in the other DD thread that was up there yesterday. That would give you a lot more things to do in combat than just full attack, options that are just as strong, but different when different tactics call for them. And if I wanted to play a "dragony" type character, I'd probably play something like a Dragonfire Adepet, from Dragon Magic, which is a very balanced and enjoyable class to play, instead of a Dragon Disciple, a very poorly designed and exectuted class. If you are absolutely married to the idea of Dragon Disciple, then I wish you the best. I gave you my opinions and my best insight on how to make it suck less, but there is really only so much that can be done, short of rewriting it.

Heliomance
2009-01-15, 09:05 AM
Could you ask your DM rework the class a bit? I mean, at least give you more uses of the Breath Weapon as you level up (you get Dragon Apotheosis; have you ever heard of a Dragon with the power to breathe only once per day?)

Yes. Every half-dragon ever. You don't become a dragon, you become a half dragon. And half dragons only get breath weapon 1/day.

There is a feat in Savage Species that bumps that to the normal 1d4 rounds, though.

Darrin
2009-01-15, 09:26 AM
Why take Tumble instead of Ride? Even if Tumble was a class skill. For avoiding AoO? Tumble IS pretty cool. I considered it myself from the start. Can you elaborate your reasoning?


Ride is situational and doesn't scale well. Unless you're going the mounted combat route, *everything* you could possibly do with Ride you can do with just a couple of skill ranks (essentially, all you need to hit is DC 5 consistently to stay in the saddle). The biggest drawback is there are many situations where you can't ride your mount, particularly if it's large size: narrow tunnels, tavern brawls, religious/political ceremonies, etc.

However, with familiars, there is one notable exception: if you have ranks in Ride, your familiar can "ride" you as a mount. This offers additional defense for your familiar: he can make a "cover" check as a free action to gain +4 AC against an attack targetting him. He can also "spur mount" to increase your movement by +10', if you don't mind taking a little damage. He could also probably help you "leap" over something.

Tumble is much more multipurpose, and as you get more ranks in it, there are more interesting things you can do. Yes, there is the avoiding-AoOs thing, but there's also reducing falling damage, and as you get more ranks, things like standing up as a free action, moving 10' with a 5' step, and so forth.

Simanos
2009-01-15, 02:10 PM
Godna, that's a good idea. Certainly for end-game. Needs a staff, though, if at all possible. Scroll has arcane failure, mishaps, so can I do it with staff?


Keld Denar, don't forget I'm gonna be in armor and I chose True Strike cause it has no somatic. I can't find Benign Transposition (no spell compendium), but I remember it from the comic AGC:
http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=358
Though I suppose I can get pretty much anything in wand form, spell trigger has no arcane failure right? Wand of Shield would be nice. Probably Wand of Mage Armor for night attacks.
A standard action is indeed valuable. Good for surprise round and then charge though.


However, with familiars, there is one notable exception: if you have ranks in Ride, your familiar can "ride" you as a mount. This offers additional defense for your familiar: he can make a "cover" check as a free action to gain +4 AC against an attack targetting him. He can also "spur mount" to increase your movement by +10', if you don't mind taking a little damage. He could also probably help you "leap" over something.
:smallbiggrin: That was pretty hilarious! :smallcool:
Amazingly, it's true, isn't? :smallredface:
I can just imagine it, a black Raven on the shoulder of a muscled Barbarian with wings telling him to "Fly you fool!".
I can't decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing. :smalleek:
I see your point how ride sucks. I thought it was DC 5 + damage taken, but I was wrong. I was going for a magical flying mount (maybe even a small dragon kin), less fear of falling with DD wings (I could even get feather fall)

BTW, how can you move 10' from Tumble? Only thing bad with tumble is how I'm gonna be in armor and that flying reduces some benefits of it. Still not a class skill for DD sadly. Damn 2 point costs.


PS: This is the most smileys I've ever used in a post.:smallwink:
/DOH!

ericgrau
2009-01-16, 12:08 AM
However, with familiars, there is one notable exception: if you have ranks in Ride, your familiar can "ride" you as a mount. This offers additional defense for your familiar: he can make a "cover" check as a free action to gain +4 AC against an attack targetting him. He can also "spur mount" to increase your movement by +10', if you don't mind taking a little damage. He could also probably help you "leap" over something.

Funny, but I don't think it's true. I'd think that a familiar could use you as cover without a ride check at all. In fact, even a nearby ally could by the cover rules. Whether or not the familiar hangs off your shoulders shouting "yipee-cay-yo-cay-yay" to do it is irrelevant. A mount uses his jump modifier or your ride check to leap, whichever is lower. So ride can only be a hindrance there. Spur is the only plausible option purely by the "rules", but really the DM should be chucking dice at your face for mentioning any of these 3 applications. And anyway, shouldn't the familiar have the ranks in ride for this to work? Unless there's a "share skills" ability I'm forgetting.

Tumble only works if your armor doesn't reduce your speed, which means you need light armor or you gotta be a dwarf.

For an alternate spell castable in armor, there's feather fall <shrug>. Also note that you can use any wiz/sorc wand of any level without any arcane failure chance nor spell failure chance. That opens up more options. Shield comes to mind as a good pre-combat buff for a two-handed barb. Some others have some utility uses, and probably aren't worth a whole wand. But you could put them on scrolls and just eat the arcane spell failure since they're probably used between combat anyway. Note that scrolls above 1st level require a caster level check (DC spell caster level + 1), but other than that and the arcane spell failure chance (for any spell level), they are still usable. There's also a number of good 2nd level spells for both wand (batman spells) and scroll (utility spells), if you have the gold.

Really I don't see why people are worrying so much about the 1 caster level. Honestly it could grant a single 0 level spell and nothing else and DD would still be worth it. He's only losing 1 BAB, which DD makes up for with other stats. Yeah you have 1st level caster power, but big whoop. Get what tiny bit out of it you can, then don't worry 'bout it. Certainly don't pour resources into something that minor.

DisgruntledFrog
2009-01-16, 09:35 AM
I've played a character like this before and it was heaps of fun. I had access to a few more books beyond core which made it a little easier to make a real monster though. Core only, this isn't a very effective build. If you can get Complete Arcane as well you'll get some pretty funky stuff. I like the draconic heritige feats in there for this kind of character, specificaly Draconic Claw.

The problem you'll face with this character is the trade off between AC, BAB, spell casting and actions. I found it best to accept that you'll never be casting high level spells but that you will have heaps of low level slots. Pick up useful buff spells like mage armour, blur/displacement, obscuring mist/fog cloud, bull strength (or better yet fist of stone from Complete Arcane). Skip direct damage spells (unless you can get Lesser Orb of X from Complete Arcane) and never take spells that allow for saves since they will become useless. If you rely too much on spells for buffs though, you'll waste too much time getting ready to be effective in combat.

If you want to wear armour, your casting is going to suffer greatly. Scrape by with the minimum sorcerer levels you can if you want to wear armour. I found concealment spells that gave miss chance ended up better than AC.

Spec you character for melee combat and don't put charisma any higher than you need to cast the highest level spells you will ever learn (so maybe 12 or 13). Strength should be you highest stat to make up for lack of BAB, and get con as high as possible to help cover those d4 sorcerer hit dice. 16 in each in pretty much needed.

You'll need 5 levels of something with Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill to get the 8 ranks need for DD (so sorceror probably) and don't forget the 2 cross class ranks needed to get Draconic as a language. I recommend 6 levels of sorcerer so you can get displacement, with 1 level of barbarian inserted at 2nd. DD all the way after that. Get that stength score up any way you can to compensate for lack of BAB. Consider Improved Natural Weapon for your claws, and definitely take power attack. For fun, learn enlarge person and aim for Awesome Blow around 12th level. You really won't have many spare skill ranks. I'd stick with physical skills if I were you, even if you have to go cross class to get them.

Once again, consider getting Complete Arcane for this character mostly becuase it's fun. If you are human, you can get draconic claws at first level so you'll get two attacks, both with full strength added on and a free attack any round you cast a spell as a standard action (really helps with the actions limits but make sure you max out concentration). With fist of stone and a base str of 16 you'll be at +6 to hit and +6 to damage at first level. Take barbarian as your second level and with rage you're now +9 to hit +8 to damage. Take power attack at 3rd and you're laughing as you rend your enemies to shreds with your claws. Good times...

Simanos
2009-01-16, 07:28 PM
Ericgrau, yes, it shouldn't work, but it was damn funny reading it, wasn't it?
My problem is now I want to ditch ride and handle animal and I can't get tumble (doesn't work in armor as you say) so I'm back to square one. And just when I had finally chosen skills :smallannoyed:
As you can see, we agree on the design and the spell front (wands yes, scrolls no) and there's not much else to do really. My main problem remain the skill distribution.


DisgruntledFrog, why take 6 Sorcerer levels? I think you don't get the point of this brute...

ericgrau
2009-01-16, 08:33 PM
Yeah, it was funny. :smallsmile:

If you really want tumble then a chain shirt only has 1 less AC than a breastplate. You can tumble in light armor. If it's that or heavy armor OTOH, you have a much larger 4 AC gap. But I assumed you wanted medium or light to keep your barbarian fast movement, no? While I often see a point of AC underestimated, I think it could be worth it for tumble, assuming you make use of your mobility.

Otherwise a lot of DM's focus almost entirely on spot (and some even set lots of silly high DCs), so you could pump that. Or if he's a better at DMing skills you could get enough ranks to make some minimal DCs in things like balance, jump, swim, etc., to avoid disasters.

DisgruntledFrog
2009-01-17, 05:22 AM
Simanos; don't get me wrong, I get the point, but to meet the prerequistes of 8 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to get into Dragon Disciple you'll need 5 levels of something with that as a class skill (or a lot of levels of something else). Doesn't have to be socerer, it could be bard, wizard, monk or cleric but I doubt any of those really help you either. The 6th level of sorceror gets you 3rd level spells, +1 BAB and +1 to all saves which is a significant boost.

Simanos
2009-01-17, 11:06 AM
DisgruntledFrog, no you don't.You can get Knowledge (Arcane) to 8 with 1 level of Sorcerer (or Bard) only, the rest Barbarian (or Fighter). You just pay a few points extra for cross classed and make sure you take that level early enough (it depends).

Ericgrau, I was thinking of Mithral Full Plate since that's medium right? Or maybe Mithral Breastplate to be even faster? Anyway, I didn't really want tumble, someone else suggested it and I only considered it cause he showed me that ride sucks. Since the 10 levels of DD only get 2 base skill points I'm pretty limited. I think I will get all the barbarian crap at the start to at least rank 5 and then keep Knowledge (Arcana) maxed in DD levels (since it's unlikely others will have that and it's cool) and probably keep Listen maxed. Though it's not very good a skill, it still goes in line with the Blindsense of DD. From a logical point of view, not a power-gaming pov.
I guess I could take Spot though, even if it is class skill only for DD. How do you feel about Speak Language? It's a class skill only for Bard and DD. It sounds pretty cool (add to the cool of a talking Raven). A final skill I was considering was Craft (Armorsmithing), because those wings will create problems and the Mending spell isn't gonna be enough. Comments?


EDIT: Since we're in the subject of DD, if a Monk DD (10/10 BAB 14) does a full attack (kicks perhaps) does he get let's say +14/+9/+3 with unarmed and +9/+9/+9 bite/claw/claw as secondaries? And with Flurry he gets 2 more at +14?

Temp.
2009-01-18, 01:48 AM
A level 15 SRD-only Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple? That doesn't depend on magic for HP/basic attack bonuses?

Half-Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) Dragon-Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#dragonTotemClassFeatur es) Barbarian 1/Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) 8/Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) 3. It's not pretty, but it beats Barb 4/Sorc 1/DD 10 in just about every way... An extra point of BAB for 9 caster levels is a good deal any day. And if you want to cast in armor so badly, just throw it in a Mithral Breastplate.

Or just Half-Dragon Barbarian 12 with some UMD-boosters.

tyckspoon
2009-01-18, 02:44 AM
EDIT: Since we're in the subject of DD, if a Monk DD (10/10 BAB 14) does a full attack (kicks perhaps) does he get let's say +14/+9/+3 with unarmed and +9/+9/+9 bite/claw/claw as secondaries? And with Flurry he gets 2 more at +14?

Yes, although the practical build would have to be something like Monk 11/Sorc1/DD 8 to actually fit the requirements for DD and Greater Flurry. You can also add Two Weapon Fighting if you really just want to throw a lot of attacks, but your hit chances will start suffering for it.

Simanos
2009-01-18, 11:10 AM
A level 15 SRD-only Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple? That doesn't depend on magic for HP/basic attack bonuses?

Half-Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) Dragon-Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#dragonTotemClassFeatur es) Barbarian 1/Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) 8/Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) 3. It's not pretty, but it beats Barb 4/Sorc 1/DD 10 in just about every way... An extra point of BAB for 9 caster levels is a good deal any day. And if you want to cast in armor so badly, just throw it in a Mithral Breastplate.

Or just Half-Dragon Barbarian 12 with some UMD-boosters.

Well Half-Dragon is ECL+3 and that borders on cheesing the other players. Also it doesn't get flight/wings unless Large size, while DD gets em always. 1 point of BAB isn't the only thing you trade, there's hitpoints and skills and some nice abilities. You aren't showing the whole picture. Dragon Totem really sucks, I wouldn't trade Fast Movement for Blind Fighting which you can get for the price of 1 feat. Plus DD gets Blindsense, another ability you don't find in feats. I don't really like the variant class rules from the SRD. They're from Unearthed Arcana, right? That's not considered Core, right? I would probably allow some, in a case by case basis, if a player asked, but I'd rather not bring it on myself. Not saying it's unbalanced, just a needless complication for me.


Yes, although the practical build would have to be something like Monk 11/Sorc1/DD 8 to actually fit the requirements for DD and Greater Flurry. You can also add Two Weapon Fighting if you really just want to throw a lot of attacks, but your hit chances will start suffering for it.
Right, sorry about that 10/10 Monk/DD thing, obviously that's not possible, I just meant what you said probably. Greater Flurry does need Monk 11. Still, it sucks not to get Dragon Apotheosis before Epic levels.
(Sorcerer 1 /) Monk 4 / DD 10 should be good too though. And it keeps getting better after level 15 cause those next Monk levels remove Flurry penalties. For other builds that 15 is a peak of sorts.

About TWF, it is argued that Flurry of Blows doesn't allow for it and I'm inclined to agree. Don't you?
And in addition, in our case any off-hand weapon would cost claw attacks.

Keld Denar
2009-01-18, 06:53 PM
About TWF, it is argued that Flurry of Blows doesn't allow for it and I'm inclined to agree. Don't you?
And in addition, in our case any off-hand weapon would cost claw attacks.

There was a really long debate about this about a month ago. I believe that a monk never has an offhand attack, unless you specifically give him one by making attacks using TWF, but everyone else dog piled on me because they couldn't get past the "MONK NEVER HAS OFFHAND EVAR EVAR". I don't feel its unbalanced, or overpowered, or unreasonable, or forbidden by RAW. Also, the Sage agrees with me, regardless of what people say about him. (Queue StupendusMan, smiter of the Sage) You spend a feat, you get an extra attack, with a couple of penalties tacked on. Add cost, add benefit. You could be spending that feat on something else.

In fact, a monk DD with Greater Flurry and Greater TWF who managed to pull off a 16 BAB and took Multiattack would have an attack routine that looked like this:

+14/+14/+14/+9/+5/-1 Unarmed Strikes with 1x str
+14/+9/+1 Unarmed Strikes with .5x str
+12/+12/+12 Claw Claw Bite with .5x str

Those are base attack bonuses before modifiers like str and whatnot.

Granted, your damage with all of those attacks would be pretty miserable, but hey, if you could get a good Bard to stand beside you, you'd be in pretty good shape.

Simanos
2009-01-25, 03:10 PM
Where does the Sage agree with you? Link (or description of where to find it)?

I would say a Monk wielding 2 Kamas could TWF like anyone else, but when he uses flurry he's stuck with it.
A Monk's unarmed attack isn't necessarily a punch. It can be a kick or whatever else you can imagine. So how could you handle off-hand attacks without a weapon (like Kama). And wielding a Kama pretty much disallows a Claw attack with that hand.

I think Flurry of Blows is pretty well built up as a free replacement for TWF for Monks. It gives about the same number of extra attacks at the same level ranges as TWF (the 2-3 feats), but with better BAB and STR factor. They're not meant to be combined and cheesed.