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Brett Wong
2009-01-03, 07:49 PM
Do undead possess souls? Zombies, skeletons, wraiths, ghouls, vampires ect. ect. ect.

Lichs do, though in a phylactery. Are ghosts just restless souls?

If undead do indeed possess souls and you control and own them, would it be out of the question to shepherd said souls and sell them to devils to turn a profit?

Alleine
2009-01-03, 08:01 PM
I know zombies and skeletons don't. They are merely animated corpses and bones. Nothing special about them, they don't even have free will as far as I know. Unintelligent undead are for the large part soulless, unless the creature is itself a restless soul like a ghost.

Intelligent undead I think still have their souls, but I am unaware of anything that speaks regarding them. The book Libris Mortis would probably have something pertaining to that.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-03, 08:06 PM
Depends. In the default 4E world, people are divided into three bits: body, soul, and anima (or vitality, or life force--whatever).

Ghosts and wraiths are just anima with the impression of a departing soul stamped into them.

Zombies and skeletons are just bodies, sustained by someone else's magic (taking the place of the body's natural anima).

Most ghouls have bodies and anima, but no souls.

Vampires have all three--or maybe they're just bodies and souls? Or something? Ask someone who has the latest undead book.

Generally, if something is intelligent, it has a soul; if something acts intelligent but isn't really, like a bad recording of a person, you're only interacting with a sort of echo of the soul imprinted on the person's anima as it left.

kamikasei
2009-01-03, 08:06 PM
No one at Wizards seems to know or care. The question of whether intelligent undead have the souls of the people they were created from, or just the memories/identities, is to my knowledge open. The idea of what a soul is, what it grants a person who possesses it, what happens to someone who's had theirs removed, etc. has never been properly pinned down.

MeanJoeSmith75
2009-01-03, 08:09 PM
Traditionally Vampires have no souls. Its the reason they cast no reflection. Intelligent undead should be taken on a case by case basis. Undead that possess souls are generally incorporeal. They are souls that haven't passed on to the next world or are denied access.
Corporeal undead tend to be the opposite. Bodies that are either possessed by negative energy to motivate them.
I would strongly consider ANY undead that drains soulless. This is generally why they need to drain/feed as they are missing the soul which normally provides.
Elementals, however, bear some thought. Are elementals bodiless souls searching for a substitute?

Zen Master
2009-01-03, 08:13 PM
While this has nothing to do with what the rules say, here is how I portray 'intelligent' undead:

Metaphysically speaking, the person is dead, and the soul has taken it's journey to the great beyond. What remains and anymates the wraith, vampire, whatever, is not the soul, but a remnant.

If we were to look at the remnant from the inside, we'd see a living (or undead, rather) nightmare. Only pain and suffering remains - memories are gone if they were good, pleasant or even just neutral. Emotions are gone, unless they are painful - so there can be love, but only broken love.

This is the reason why undead act in the way they do. Inside them, there is nothing but the screaming, wailing pain and suffering that binds them to our plane. Without it, there isn't anything.

For the same reason, almost no undead in my games ever make grand plans of conquest. Such things have nothing to do with what drives them, their purity of pain and misery - hence, they don't.

In other words - there isn't a real soul, but the remnant fulfills all the functions of a real one. Basically, if a real soul was a map, a remnant would be a similar map, with all the good and nice areas blank.

I wonder if this makes sense to anyone but me.

MeanJoeSmith75
2009-01-03, 08:22 PM
Acromos- Thats probably the best description I have heard. My only caveat would be incorporeal undead, specifically ghosts. They are generally considered lost souls. They may be bound by an oath or unfulfilled quest or self loathing that keeps them from traveling on.
The exception would be the Lich as s/he has chosen to ripe its soul from its body. Volunteering for undead status.

Brett Wong
2009-01-03, 08:27 PM
Acromos, I like your description alot. But it kind of gets in the way of my theoretical master of shrouds from finding and shepherding lost souls straight into the nine hells xD

I think your answer is the closest to the truth : / oh well. Would a vampire keep more of his soul? Are intelligent undead capable of more emotion and even love?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-01-03, 08:38 PM
This is my opinion on the matter;

Mindless undead like skeletons and zombies do not have souls. They are merely animated corpses.
Undead with Int scores do have their souls within them, bodies and souls powered by negative energy. The exception to this rule is the Lich, whose soul is within their phylactery. Some other undead might have their souls in other places but none that I can name off the top of my head other than the lich.

Brett Wong
2009-01-03, 08:48 PM
Do you think that Wraiths *are* souls?

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid slain by a wraith becomes a wraith in 1d4 rounds. Its body remains intact and inanimate, but its spirit is torn free from its corpse and transformed. Spawn are under the command of the wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

This sounds like a humanoid who's slain by a wraith has it's soul forcefully ripped out and perverted into something completely malevolent and evil (Something Baator looks for ^^) do these souls still see an afterlife after they are slain?

KevLar
2009-01-03, 09:24 PM
Refluffing (or liberally interpreting the fluff) can be lots of fun and a great way to steer away from the generic stuff. If you do it for the sake of the story, that is. If you do it for profit... consult your DM first. :smalltongue:

Even if you establish that undead have souls, I can't easily imagine a devil spending heaps of gold to buy them. What would he do with with an already tormented soul, doomed to suffer for all eternity? Wouldn't he rather have the juicy soul of a living creature, full of hopes and dreams and lust for life? I can think of exceptions, but as a rule, I'd personally say no.

Brett Wong
2009-01-03, 09:57 PM
...imagine a devil spending heaps of gold to buy them. What would he do with with an already tormented soul, doomed to suffer for all eternity?

Break it down and wring it dry of any and all divine energy held within ala pact primeval and use it to power the infernal realms of the nine hells and those within? Devils can only take the souls of the evil lawl. They're sneaky in corrupting humans into becoming lawful evil so that they'll end up in Baator anyways. Using means like the Pact Insideus, making them do little favors for the devils in return for rewards, what the person doesn't know that each little task pushes them a little closer to the edge and they will eventually end up in hell anyways. Or they could just have them sign a Pact Certain in their own blood automatically flinging its alignment to lawful evil and giving ownership of it's soul over to the devils upon death. Also devils use souls as coinage in hell :smalltongue:

Mando Knight
2009-01-03, 09:58 PM
Depends. In the default 4E world, people are divided into three bits: body, soul, and anima (or vitality, or life force--whatever).

Really? I don't remember seeing that anywhere... is it in the Manual of the Planes?

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-03, 10:03 PM
Worlds and Monsters. And Open Grave, I think, judging from what people who have it (lucky cheating bastards) have said.

Devils_Advocate
2009-01-05, 02:19 AM
p. 126 of Complete Divine talks about the fate of souls in D&D 3.5. Souls get formed into / trapped within various undead.

No mention is made of whether undead created by create undead get their original souls sucked back into them or what. One could infer that, if one wished, and even extend this to skeletons and zombies.

3E is generally rather vague on the afterlife, though. Complete Divine doesn't really detail what form souls have in the outer planes they travel to, how their senses work, etc. It describes them moving about and witnessing things without going into how the heck you do that when you're dead. :smalltongue: It also says that souls commonly join with their respective planes instead of becoming petitioners; this is a departure from Deities & Demigods, which says that becoming a petitioner is typical.

Brett Wong
2009-01-05, 03:04 AM
p. 126 of Complete Divine talks about the fate of souls in D&D 3.5. Souls get formed into / trapped within various undead.

No mention is made of whether undead created by create undead get their original souls sucked back into them or what. One could infer that, if one wished, and even extend this to skeletons and zombies.

3E is generally rather vague on the afterlife, though. Complete Divine doesn't really detail what form souls have in the outer planes they travel to, how their senses work, etc. It describes them moving about and witnessing things without going into how the heck you do that when you're dead. :smalltongue: It also says that souls commonly join with their respective planes instead of becoming petitioners; this is a departure from Deities & Demigods, which says that becoming a petitioner is typical.

Ah, ill look into complete divine. Also, what about 'Summon' instead of 'Create' isn't that just bringing them from somewhere else into your control?

KillianHawkeye
2009-01-05, 11:32 AM
Summon undead works just like summon monster. It summons an extraplanar undead creature or creatures to serve you for a brief time, whereupon they return to their plane of origin.

NEO|Phyte
2009-01-05, 12:45 PM
Elementals, however, bear some thought. Are elementals bodiless souls searching for a substitute?

Nope. Their bodies, like non-native outsiders, ARE their soul. In 3.x, at least.

Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.

Athaniar
2009-01-05, 01:07 PM
One of the few things that annoy me with 4e is this silly "anima" thing. For me, there are three kinds of undead: "body" undead (zombies, skeletons), "soul" undead (ghosts), and "body & soul", or "master" undead (liches, death knights).

MickJay
2009-01-05, 10:48 PM
Egyptians thought there were 6 elements of which soul consisted, imagine trying to figure it out in THAT setting ;).

Western philosophy and theology made distinction between soul/basic life force (present in all living beings), soul/senses (in animals, in addition to the first type) and "conscious" soul (in humans only). "Anima" corresponds to the first two types of life forces.

I'd say the trickiest part is with vampires, depending on the criteria accepted they could be classified as either having souls or soulless.