D&D 3.5 - Adding templates post character creation?

[Kobold-Bard]

How do you go about adding a template with a level adjustment to a pre-existing character.

The particular example I am looking for is my group just reached level 12 and the wizard (human, evoker) has decided he wants to become a lich.

Everyone else in the group is level 12 as well. I don't understand the rules for adding the template. I think their are two possibe options.

1. I just add the template to him. This seems fine except it puts him 4 levels over the current ECL, making him overpowered.

1b. If I take option 1, how do I deal with advancement. Do I just keep him going as normal, using the level 16 exp amount before he levels up. Or do I just stop him from advancing until the ret of the group reaches level 16.

3. Or do I deduct four levels of Wizard then add the template, keeping him at the same ECL as everyoe else.

I have never understood how to do this so any explaination would be greatly appreciated.

[TheCountAlucard]

By the normal rules, you take option 1, advancing as a 16th-level character. However, as you pointed out, this is a little unbalanced - you might consider taking the lich progression instead.

[hamishspence]

BoED's Saint template used delayed levelling. This might allow for a all-same ECL party- you take the template at the point when you would level up, instead of levelling up, and your XP cost to go up to the next level is increased. So that, by time you level up, the rest of party are at same ECL.

[Yuki Akuma]

Solution: monster class. Make up a 'prestige class' that spreads out the Lich abilities over four levels. The 'class' doesn't actually give him HP or any bonuses to saves not covered by the template, and also doesn't count towards feats and skills.

For the first level, say, increase his HD to d6s instead of d4s, and give him turn resistance 2 and the touch attack. At the second level, increase his HD to d8s, give him the paralyzing touch and, say, DR 5/magic and blugeoning. And just continue from there, increasing his abilities as he levels up. Give him resistance to electricity and cold before giving him total immunity, and such.

[Cheesegear]

I'm assuming you're the DM. The players are only as overpowered as you let them be.

But, you're correct in that once he's ECL 16, he is ECL 16, and should advance - or not - as normal. The other players should catch up soon. Alternatively, you could ninja in some templates of your own onto the other characters. Getting them bit by werewolves and vampires will do the trick. Or have some God/dess come down and bless/curse them all with new abilities on par with a Lich. They're level 12, right? That could happen.

Really, you can always just say No. A lot of DMs forget that option.

More importantly - if you're the DM - read up on the Lich (I assume you've done that). Liches are the big-daddies of Evil, pretty much only second to Great Red Wyrm Dracoliches. The Lich (and his 'associates') should have a 15-18th level Paladin or Cleric knocking on their door every other week coming to lay on the Smackdown.

While your players can optimise all they want, so can you. Again, your players are only as powerful as you let them be.

[hamishspence]

Depends how evil the lich is. Baelnorns and Archlichs from Monsters of Faerun, and the Good Lich from Libris Mortis, aren't evil.

the general implication in the Lich entry in MM is that the ritual is very evil, but in Dragon Magazine's Birth of the Dead article, all it requires is a few spells, maybe with Evil Descriptor. Casting a spell with Evil descriptor is Not Very Evil by Fiendish Codex 2 rules.

What is true is that in most settings, such a lich would be Hated and Feared by the general population, even if he is heroic. the Robe of Gentle Repose is a good way to conceal your lichiness, keeping you perfectly preserved.

[Cheesegear]

Depends how evil the lich is. Baelnorns and Archlichs from Monsters of Faerun, and the Good Lich from Libris Mortis, aren't evil.

If you're good, then, obviously stat up yourself a Great Red Wyrm Dracolich. There can only be Lich, and it's going to be the Dragon. :smallamused:


Casting a spell with Evil descriptor is Not Very Evil by Fiendish Codex 2 rules.

Again, alignment rules are fuzzy, since they seem to change with nearly every book. I rule that spells with the Evil descriptor are only 'evil' if you use them for the wrong reasons. And there are plenty.


Such a lich would be Hated and Feared by the general population, even if he is heroic. the Robe of Gentle Repose is a good way to conceal your lichiness, keeping you perfectly preserved.

It's important to realise that his creature type changes to Undead. There are loads of abilities to be used by Good and Evil characters against undead. If you're a good lich, the 'paragon of {alignment} coming to smack you down' scenario still applies. Only this time, they're now Evil Clerics and Blackguards.

...You know what Evil Clerics and Blackguards can do? Command Undead. So, the Lich template has +4 turn (/command) resistance. Like I said, they can optimise, so can you.
Heck, even if he is an 'Evil Lich', there are certainly even more evil people out there who rejoice at dominating their lessers.

Break out a Level 15-18 Dread Necromancer (maybe Level 20, so he can be a Lich too!), then you (the DM) get to say IC "You're a Lich, I'm a Necromancer...Do the math."

[Malacode]

If you don't mind the idea of him being a Liche, and don't want to be an ass about it (LIke everyone else seems to think you will be), there IS a path you can take. Tell him that the process for becoming a Liche is incredibly time consuming, and that his Wizard will be devoted to the task (And out of the party) until everyone else reaches ECL 16. For the time his wizard is out, he can have a substitute or something, perhaps the Cohort of another PC if they don't mind.

[hamishspence]

There aren't many books which call it out explicitly, but those that do are consistent. BoVD- Casting evil spells leads to corruption (but a few, for good reasons, you might get away with) Champions of Ruin- basically same- its the Consistent Evil Behaviour that makes you evil. Fiendish Codex 2- Evil spell cast is a Corrupt Act (but a minor one)

The biggest exception is Complete Scoundrel's Malconvoker (can cast Evil summoning spells without moral problems.

Basically, by rules, while Good people can do evil acts (few and generally mild) they can't keep doing it consistantly if they want to stay non-evil.

The aforesaid Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror is easiest way to be a non-evil (must be non-good) lich- Heroic behaviour all the time, careful avoidance or at least minimal use of Evil spells- by the time they undergo the Lich Transformation, they are still, morally, Non-Evil

[Noneoyabizzness]

break out the books divide the ailities into logical level base servings

1)undead type, skill bonus +2, Touch Attack, natural armor+2,phylactery
2)+2 wis, Fear Aura, +3 natural armor, turn resistance+2 skill+4
3)+2 int, Para touch, +4 natural armor, damage reduction10 bludgeoning, skill+6
4)+2 chr, turn resistance+4, skill+8 dr15/blud&magic, full attack natural amor+5

looking at the last levelseems like it shouldbe balanced differently. but jeebus as tim gunn says " make it work."

[Darrin]

Solution: monster class. Make up a 'prestige class' that spreads out the Lich abilities over four levels. The 'class' doesn't actually give him HP or any bonuses to saves not covered by the template, and also doesn't count towards feats and skills.


It's been done already on the WotC website:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a

Four racial class levels, so you basically level up like you would in any other PrC. After the wizard takes the 4th level, he becomes a full-fledged lich. There's a bunch of stuff you have to do with creating a phylactery, though.

[Devils_Advocate]

hamishspence,

A horde of horrible monsters is thundering towards the peaceful villagers. You summon X to Y the villagers.

If you're running alignment in a non-ridiculous way, whether this is a Good or Evil act depends on whether Y is protect or slaughter, not on whether X is an angel or a demon.

Of course, if you wanna get really non-ridiculous, you could also throw in crazy ideas like "You can't get creatures to act contrary to their alignments just by summoning them."

The most ridiculous take on lich alignment would be to run with the whole "Liches are Always Evil. Oh, and here are some special Good liches." That's right up there with "Poisoning is Evil; here are some special poisons for Good characters to use."

[Cheesegear]

The most ridiculous take on lich alignment would be to run with the whole "Liches are Always Evil. Oh, and here are some special Good liches." That's right up there with "Poisoning is Evil; here are some special poisons for Good characters to use."

This is my thinking. It's just ridiculous.

[Wih]

This is my thinking. It's just ridiculous.

Wizard's website (I believe somewhere around the link pointed to above) has mentioned that non-evil Liches are an option, they just lose the Aura of Fear.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's been done already on the WotC website:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a

Four racial class levels, so you basically level up like you would in any other PrC. After the wizard takes the 4th level, he becomes a full-fledged lich. There's a bunch of stuff you have to do with creating a phylactery, though.

Well then.

Kobold?

Use that.