Rate My Magic Deck:Burn Style

[aenglehart]

Hey guys just wanting any advice on my new burn deck that I custom made. Here is the deck list. Goal is to burn while keep opponent controlled with the bridges

Incinerate x3
Rift Bolt x4
Seal of Fire x4
Shock x4
Flame Rift x2
Lava Spike x4
Scalding Tongs x3
Spark Elemental x2
Ensnaring Bridge x4
Antagonism x2
Tarfire x4
Lunge x2
Final Fortune x1
Raging Goblin x2
Mountain x25

Thanks everyone

[lilhowie624]

i think its missing something.......

o yah thats it remove the gay shocks and go for

LIGHTINING BOLT R
instant
deal 3 damage to target creature or player


o yah thats the one

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Seriously, your deck's survivabilty absolutely requires one of four cards in your deck showing up as soon as you have the mana to put them out, but you have no way of making sure they get out quick.

Any kind of weenie swarm deck is going to roll you over. Any kind of deck with moderate prot is going to curbstomp you. CoP:Fire = immune to you. Monocolor Burn = bad.

I also see no Mana Flares, which are necessary for nuke decks to be really effective.

If you're wanting pump/burn, go red/black, toss in some Dwarven Warriors or at least Hearth Charms, then getting some critters you can pump into play (frozen shade and carrion ant are two good ones, particularly when paired with mana flares, can be used to eliminate accidental mana burn). Make them unblockable, then pump them and send them in.

[afroakuma]

A proper weenie-supported burn would probably be more reliable and less dependent on picking up expensive permanents.

Bear in mind, I played Mirage/Tempest burn, so I know a bit about red decks. :smallwink:

Your deck also seems to have a surplus of lands, considering that you'll be spending actual spells far too fast. You'll burn out without ever really going nova.

This is why Searing Song and Browbeat were so much fun... :smallfrown:

[Stormthorn]

Needs more X damage and Lightening Bolt.


Man, i miss my burn deck. I accidentaly ruined it. Who knows what all those cards are worth.
Well, probably not much because from the little that i have seen of the recent sets (of which i have not bene purchasing cards) the power and speed of the game has been amped up.

Djinn Illuminatus + Glimpse the Unthinkable. If you could play the Djinn then you have enough mana (hopefully) to mill at least 30 cards on your next turn.

[tgva8889]

Blaze-type cards are really the best.

And your deck is perfectly fine as it is. There are decks in Constructed formats which are designed to do very similar things. However, I would advise that you find space for some creatures. Flametongue Kavu is by far the best Red Burn Deck creature ever. Ghitu Slinger is pretty good. Anything with Haste and enough power to make it not suck is probably viable. Oxidda Golem (I think that's what it's called, it's the Affinity for Mountains one) is pretty hot, for example.

If you can find Lightning Bolts I'd try to fit those in. They're strictly better than, say, Lava Spike. Fireblast is also a pretty sweet burn spell. Browbeat is very awesome, as has been stated by afroakuma.

Mana Flare isn't necessary at all, especially since all your burn costs 2 or less. In fact, based on your deck you probably don't even want it. It will help your opponent more than it will help you.

Cut some lands. As I stated before, all your burn costs 2 or less to use, and none of your other cards cost more than 3. You probably only need 20 lands, but 22 is a safe number. Makes some room for more burn/creatures, as well.

If you're going for the quick "I'm throwing my burn at your face" plan, then this deck seems like a good start. You probably just want to put in some more creatures so you can deal more damage quickly. (By creatures, I mean ones that will stick around after a turn. Spark Elemental is good, but he doesn't count as a creature.) Creatures will always be more efficient at dealing damage to your opponent in terms of card advantage.

If you're trying for the more controlling build of "I'm gonna burn all your creatures and then somehow kill you", then you really want to be playing some way to finish them off. A huge creature isn't a bad choice, and there are plenty of nice Red huge guys to play.

I point you in the direction of The Magic: the Gathering Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84019&page=32) here at Giantitp.

[Cubey]

i think its missing something.......

o yah thats it remove the gay shocks and go for

LIGHTINING BOLT R
instant
deal 3 damage to target creature or player


o yah thats the one

I believe the reason there are no lightning bolts in this deck is that they're no longer tournament-legal for a LONG time. Very hard to get, too.
Side note, please don't use the word "gay" as an insult. It's childish at best, homophobic at worst.

[afroakuma]

Fireblast is just excellent. It's usually my fourth-turn kill spell.

There's nothing wrong with Shock as a supplement to other burn.

If you need more big damage fast, go with Flame Rift.

Needle Drop lets you pull cards, but it can be tricky to slip out and is less versatile. Still, it's a fair supplement.

Shard Volley is also a good spell when going nova.

You do not need Mana Flare. That will only help everybody who is not you.

Anways, I would recommend packing some red weenies to hold off creatures long enough to crack off some serious burn. Your ideal is to drop a weenie or hang a Rift Bolt on turn one, crack off one or two burn spells on turn two, one burn and one weenie/two burn on turn three, then use Browbeat to get you near the kill or restock your hand. Turn five should be a kill; if you have Shard Volley and/or Fireblast, turn four kills are possible.

Flametongue Kavu is useful, true, but in a rapid-fire burn deck it's uneconomical.

My own burn deck (Vintage only) runs 18 Mountains, 32 spells and 10 creatures.

[afroakuma]

Let me break this down:


Incinerate x3

Add a fourth.


Seal of Fire x4

Surprise burn is better than slow burn. Exchange these for Shard Volleys.


Flame Rift x2

Test your deck's pacing against other competitive decks. If it's too slow or you're being caught in a control lock instead of heavy damage, put in two more Flame Rifts.


Scalding Tongs x3

Circumstantial, breakable and you don't want the game to go on long enough for this to become valuable. Remove all three.


Spark Elemental x2

If you're allowed Ball Lightnings, I would recommend a switch - they are worth the 3 red. However, these are fine.


Ensnaring Bridge x4

No. Three mana for a creature-slower in a burn deck? Don't do it; and definetely don't do four of them. Remove them all and replace them with weenies, which can both do damage and blunt the beatdown while you unload fire and lightning at the player's face.


Antagonism x2

No. Four-mana circumstantial damage that could come back to smack you? Out of the question. Remove.


Tarfire x4

If you're going to have Tribal spells without any way of profiting from them, what's the use? I like Surging Flame for a four-in, since it has a secondary effect.

There's nothing wrong with this placement, but it's basically more Shocks. Decide if they'll profit you more than weenie drops would.


Lunge x2

No. Just no.


Final Fortune x1

No reason not to keep it, provided you can close.


Raging Goblin x2

Increase to four.


Mountain x25

Decrease severely. 19-21 would more than suffice.

In summary: Add Browbeat, some red weenies and more quick burn.

As a burn deck, you have to realize that almost every other deck at the table outclasses you; burn is not about class, it is not about concept - it is about getting the other player in your sights and aiming as many guns as possible at his head, and hoping you shot more times than he did when the smoke clears.

Creatures don't matter. Lands don't matter. Artifacts don't matter. Only the enemy's life total matters. That must be your priority.

Thanks everyone[/QUOTE]

[Surrealistik]

I pretty much agree with Afro's assessment, except possibly with respect to the seals.

4x Mogg Fanatic (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=46085) for good red weenie. These are expensive as hell (moneywise) and for good reason.

Keldon Marauders (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=44307) are also good, cheap (mana and moneywise) red beatdown.

You may want to consider Smash to Smithereens (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=50006) for sideboard/artifact removal. It doubles as burn, so it's fully compatible with the deck's objectives.

[afroakuma]

:eek: Mogg Fanatic cost what???

And I have like twenty Tempest originals kicking around???


...I feel old. :smallfrown:

and soon to be rich. :smallbiggrin:

[tgva8889]

Seal of Fire is good. Just the fact that you can play a Seal and let it sit in play is significant, because it means you can set up burn for next turn when you don't need it this turn. It's the same reason you play Rift Bolt, except you trade 1 point of damage for the ability to blow the Seal whenever you want. This basically says "You aren't playing an X/2 that I don't like", which is very powerful for a deck that doesn't really want to get attacked.

Shard Volley is good, but I wouldn't cut Seal of Fire for it. I'd rather cut something else that's obviously less useful, like Shock or Tarfire.

Surging Flame will, more often than not, be worse than standard Shock. Statistically, you don't have enough chance to Surge one into another. It's more economic to play more Red random dudes.

Spark Elemental is awesome. Turn 1 TAKE 3 TO THE FACE? Pretty good in my book. Ball Lightning is good, but I wouldn't just replace them one-for-one. Why not find room for both? And of course Blistering Firecat is just better than Ball Lightning in my opinion, but that's because I love Firecats. I would play all 12. And some Hell's Thunder, possibly. Skizzik is good, too. All these cards fall into the same category of "creatures that try to be burn spells". Most of them do a good job.

If only your opponent's life total matters, then Lava Spike is amazing. It's like a better Spark Elemental, which is saying something completely huge. Firebolt is also good, because in reality it's 4 damage to the opponent packed into one card. Flames of the Blood Hand is quite possibly better. Pulse of the Forge is also pretty awesome, whether or not you ever bring it back.

I would play FTK in any red deck that has cards that deal damage to things. If your opponent is playing any creatures at all, FTK will probably either kill them or make killing them a breeze. If your opponent is a real annoying guy and is playing Pro-Red creatures, you're probably in a bad position anyways, so why are we bothering?

I will argue that Magma Jet is in fact the best non-rare Burn spell any burn deck can play ever. Scry ensures you draw whatever you really need when you need it, and Magma Jet is otherwise a nice 2 damage for 2.

Here's some good creatures that are all worth playing, at least in my opinion:
Oxidda Golem
Slith Firewalker
Blistering Firecat
Ball Lightning
Spark Elemental
Raging Goblin
Ronin Houndmaster
Arc Slogger
Avarax
Hell's Thunder
Hostility
Hunted Dragon
Inner-Flame Acolyte
Lava Hounds
Viashino Sandstalker
Lightning Serpent
Menacing Ogre
Pyre Charger
Rorix Bladewing
Skizzik
Tarox Bladewing
Thunderblust

That's not even all of the ones I would consider, but it's all the ones that have Haste (and Arc Slogger. He's just that good). Other creatures that have been suggested by others are also good choices. Especially Mogg Fanatic and Keldon Marauders.

What you must realize playing a burn deck is that you're probably going to run out of cards faster than everyone else. You want to be playing as many cards that can deal as much damage as possible. This is why creatures are good; creatures will, overall, deal more damage to a player than a single Lightning Bolt will. This is why most decks tend to play a mixture of creatures and burn spells; you play some creatures, then you burn them a path to the enemy face and finish them off with a few choice burn spells. The more damage a card deals, the better, in general. Also, consider how cards will let you get to more cards. This is why cards like Magma Jet and Browbeat are good; they let you continue the clock and/or deal some damage.

[Thanatos 51-50]

My very humble opinion:
(NOTE: I'm ssuming you have a 60-card total and not actually counting. If you don't, cut it down to sixty.)

Deck yourself five lands, I usually go for half-lands when I build my decks, but 33% is a respecable, solid number. For a burn deck, you want more room for your tasty instant and soceries.
Loost the creatures. Fleshbeings have no place when you are a nexus of fire, doom and very unpleasent death. If you aren't killing the other player right now, you're playing too slow.

I can't reccomend X-damage spells highly enough, back in the day, when I could actually still play Magic, Disintigrate was my favourite.
One-red-for-two-damage spells (In the vein of, say, Flare) cannot be reccommended highly enough.

Always aim for the other player. make your strategy very clear from the get-go, and have a constant stream of damage pouring forth.
If you have cards in your hand after turn three, you're doing it wrong.
If you still have a game after turn five, you're doing it wrong.

[afroakuma]

I'd debate that Seal of Fire is better than Shock as Shock is an instant; it's certainly better than some Sorceries, though.

Surging Flame is indeed inferior; I much prefer Magma Jet. Forgot that one. Very useful to meddle with your deck when playing fast burn.

Spark Elementals are useful, but nothing packs the punch of a Ball Lightning cruising down the highway. Part of that's nostalgia, though. :smallbiggrin:

Blistering Hellcat features slower deployment in exchange for a cool pic and one more damage. Not great.

Skizzik is good, and probably second to Spark Elemental/Ball Lightning in terms of what I'd be willing to play. The casting cost throws me, though. Your fourth turn should be spent unloading two three-point burn spells (and preferably a finisher Fireblast) to the face, not bringing off a single fatty for a possible five-point whack.

Firebolt: You should never be in a position to flashback a Firebolt in a straight burn deck. Avoid.

Flames: Very useful; kind of expensive, but important against some decks. I'd prefer to sideboard it and keep the pace fast.

Same answer on Pulse of the Forge. Against some decks, it's your primary weapon. Most of the time, this should not be the case. Sideboard.

Remember what I said about Flametongue Kavu: On turn four, you should be doing better things.

thanatos is missing one vital thing about X spells: your mana is best spent doing 2 to 3 damage each, not piling on for 1 damage each less the initiating cost.

He is entirely correct on pacing. Turn five should be the latest kill.

[Thanatos 51-50]

thanatos is missing one vital thing about X spells: your mana is best spent doing 2 to 3 damage each, not piling on for 1 damage each less the initiating cost.

He is entirely correct on pacing. Turn five should be the latest kill.

"Conviently forgetting to talk about it".
If, for some reason, you're not drawing your Sparks, Lightning bolts, flares, and other 2-3 damage instants/sorceries, then an X spell is a half-decent subsitute. I use them to fatten up the number of cards in the deck.

20 Basic Red Land + 12 2-3 killers = 43 cards.
I list 12 because I can only think of the three already listed at the moment. I'd try to round it to a fat 40, if possible, pad my number with X spells, and after I'm done there, put in the high-damage spells (Like whatever the newfangled version of Lava Axe is. 5 damage for 5 mana isn't too bad. its very... fair. And theres no denying that its helpful if the game somehow drags longer than intended)

[afroakuma]

"Conviently forgetting to talk about it".
If, for some reason, you're not drawing your Sparks, Lightning bolts, flares, and other 2-3 damage instants/sorceries, then an X spell is a half-decent subsitute. I use them to fatten up the number of cards in the deck.

Odd. My deck's constantly at a level 60.


I list 12 because I can only think of the three already listed at the moment.

Let's go through them:

Lightning Bolt
Incinerate
Lava Spike
Shard Volley
Shock
Magma Rift
Tarfire
Rift Bolt
Seal of Fire

And that's disregarding Fireblast, Browbeat and any creatures whatsoever. 36 cards. There's no room/need to fatten out the deck.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Odd. My deck's constantly at a level 60.



Let's go through them:

Lightning Bolt
Incinerate
Lava Spike
Shard Volley
Shock
Magma Rift
Tarfire
Rift Bolt
Seal of Fire

And that's disregarding Fireblast, Browbeat and any creatures whatsoever. 36 cards. There's no room/need to fatten out the deck.

This is the point where I point out I haven't played for four years. I'm not exactly up to snuff.

[afroakuma]

Fair enough. Sorry we burned your village. Here's some gold.

[Thanatos 51-50]

/me uses the gold to build a black/blue deck, pwns all.

[The Extinguisher]

I play burn subtly. Is that wrong.

9 times out of ten, I'm never playing things on my turn, or on players. It's usually creatures and/or planeswalkers. I've noticed that people prefer their stuff getting destroyed than taking damage. But that's just me.

I like to slowly build up to an overkill finisher they can't stop. Nothing says "underestimated" like a Demonfire to the face for 21.

[afroakuma]

In the modern play environment, that's your only option - and it will always be a weak one.

In the old days, despite powerful combos, engines, control decks etc., speed red burn was a viable contender.

[The Extinguisher]

I'm playing old cards. It's completely casual and really good. It's also good intimidation. If you have junk in your hand, but some untapped mountains, they're cautious at playing things because I've just destroyed their creatures.

[Bergett]

...Have we covered Blaze...?
One red, X
X = # of damage dealt to target player or creature.

Lava Axe too.

[afroakuma]

You should never be in a position to use Lava Axe. Ever.

Demonfire's the best X spell available, that I can recall. Being able to intimidate with open mountains is a joy I've long since forgotten, having learned about the equally great joy of throwing hot painful things at my opponent's head until it gets burned off.

[tgva8889]

I'd debate that Seal of Fire is better than Shock as Shock is an instant; it's certainly better than some Sorceries, though.

Blistering Hellcat features slower deployment in exchange for a cool pic and one more damage. Not great.

Seal of Fire is traditionally just as good as Shock, since on turn 1 it doesn't make a difference whether you're playing an Instant or an Enchantment. In fact it doesn't make a difference until turn 3. Once you hit that turn, it's theoretically possible that your opponent could have a Split Second spell. In that case, Shock is probably better. However, the chance that your opponent has the Krosan Grip for your random Seal of Fire is ridiculously low, because Krosan Grip is not a good main deck card (unless absolutely everyone is playing Affinity) and you don't sideboard it against burn. Which makes it not matter.

Whether or not I Shock you on your turn or my turn makes absolutely no difference in most cases, since if your opponent has counters they'll just leave them up anyways, and if all the burn is going towards the opponent, the order of casting them only matters in the case of Shard Volley.

As for Firecat, I like it because it's more efficient in terms of cost in cards, and you can play it on turn 3 as a random 2/2 mook and start swinging at the face. Then you can next turn spend time throwing burn at the face, then spend 2 mana when you don't have enough cards that you could spend more mana to make him a 7/1. Skizzik is infinitely less efficient than Firecat in terms of pure damage.

Just because you should be doing better things doesn't mean you always will be doing better things. You should never start a match with a loss, because if your opponent sideboards to your sideboard, you'll probably still lose.

[afroakuma]

Seal of Fire is traditionally just as good as Shock

As good as, yes. Myself, I value the tension of the unknown, but that's personal opinion. It is a useful spell, certainly.


As for Firecat, I like it because it's more efficient in terms of cost in cards, and you can play it on turn 3 as a random 2/2 mook and start swinging at the face.

Like I said, I prefer to have the kill done by turn 4, 5 at the latest. The pacing means than I can't afford to spend 3 mana on a 2/2 on turn 3.

It does certainly have its uses, but card for card I'd rather the Ball Lightnings.


Skizzik is infinitely less efficient than Firecat in terms of pure damage.

Guaranteed. The only reason I'd favor it is that it can stick around.


Just because you should be doing better things doesn't mean you always will be doing better things.

Speak for yourself. :smalltongue:


You should never start a match with a loss, because if your opponent sideboards to your sideboard, you'll probably still lose.

Very true.

[JerryMcJerrison]

Hmm. Remind me to have you guys look over my old Green/White deck from when I started playing the first time (during Ravnica block). It was pretty much the only deck I ever made that actually achieved what it wanted to do (make 40 metric @#$%tons of saprolings). Course, its hard not to make tons of sappies when you put 4 Doubling Seasons in a deck.

I recently tried to put it back together with added thallids for the fungusey flavor. It got stomped pretty hard by my friend's Sliver and milling decks. I think it did okay, considering how well-tooled his decks were, but I had problems either getting mana or getting spells to play too often for me to think it was just bad luck.

[Brother Oni]

I recently tried to put it back together with added thallids for the fungusey flavor. It got stomped pretty hard by my friend's Sliver and milling decks. I think it did okay, considering how well-tooled his decks were, but I had problems either getting mana or getting spells to play too often for me to think it was just bad luck.

While I can see a competent Sliver deck beating a Saproling deck (a decent one will be churning out almost as many creatures but with many more abilities), I can't see how it's losing to a milling deck.

You might want to either start a new thread or join in on the already existing magic thread though. I have a Saproling deck as well and it'd be interesting to see what differences there are in our decks (I don't have any Doubling Seasons, but I still tend to generate enough Saprolings to win most games).

[Decoy Lockbox]

I also see no Mana Flares, which are necessary for nuke decks to be really effective.

Not true. I have a burn deck which normally wins in the turn 3 through 5 area. Here is the list:

18 mountain
4 Strip Mine

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Slith Firewalker

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Seal of Fire
4 Fireblast
4 Violent Eruption
2 Hidetsugu's Second Rite
4 Wheel of Fortune

This deck seems to do allright, especially against counterspell-heavy control decks.

[Talkkno]

You know, wheel of fortune is restricted.............it needs more price of progress.

[JerryMcJerrison]

While I can see a competent Sliver deck beating a Saproling deck (a decent one will be churning out almost as many creatures but with many more abilities), I can't see how it's losing to a milling deck.

You might want to either start a new thread or join in on the already existing magic thread though. I have a Saproling deck as well and it'd be interesting to see what differences there are in our decks (I don't have any Doubling Seasons, but I still tend to generate enough Saprolings to win most games).

I did better against the milling deck, but he still won 3/5. Those ones I'm willing to blame on bad luck/shuffling more than the slivers; once he Glimpsed me for 3 Scatter the Seeds, some fungi, a land, and my second thrumming stone leaving me to draw 4 more lands in a row. Which leads me to the other problem, which was that I tried to put either 4 or nothing of anything I used so thrumming stone would be at peak effectiveness (never used it before, just saw it lying around and was curious). Circu loves this, and so do a few other cards whose names escape me. (However, yesterday I somehow managed to ripple 3 doubling seasons for the price of one, so THAT was fun.)

I also have a sneaking suspicion that I just don't know how to play properly against control deck.

[Brother Oni]

I also have a sneaking suspicion that I just don't know how to play properly against control deck.

You could start with a deck listing in a separate thread rather than derailing this one further as I suggested in my previous post. :smallbiggrin:

But if you're allowed to sideboard out, then Gaea's Blessing should virtually ensure a win against any milling deck.

Edit: Just found your post, sorry and I've added my comments. When I can find my Saproling deck, I'll post it up there and we can compare. I've got some older cards which I use (and almost nothing from end of Tempest up to Planar Chaos as I stopped playing then), but I use a slightly different philosophy. I'd love to have Doubling Season though - that thing would make my Clockspinning deck absolutely evil.