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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-04, 03:53 PM
The Balor, the Black Dragon, the Tarrasque. Three iconic DnD monsters that any long-time DnD player has heard of and most DMs have at least considered using as a climactic encounter once. Being all CR 20 monsters (using Black Wurm), how do they compare? How do they work as monsters? And where is their design lacking? Here follows a comparison of their most important capabilities along with comments. Note that capabilities is not the same as stats. A monster might have relatively low stats that are very effective when combined.



BALOR
HD: 20 (poor)
HP: 290 (poor)
physical total: 61 (very good)
mental total: 44 (good)
Armor: 35+4 (good)
Touch: 16+4 (good)
SR: 28 (poor)
good save: 22+4 (average)
bad save: 19+4 (good)
meele attack: +31/+26/+21/+16 and +30/+25 reach 10/20 (poor)
meele av. dmg: 18 (poor)
blast DC: 25-27 (average)
blast damage: sp. effect only
blast range: close-long (good)
resist: weapon 15, acid 10, cold 10, (average)
immune: fire, lightning, poison, mental influence/control (good)
healing: rest only (dismal)
skills: very good
special effects: dispel, death, dominate, insanity, teleport, flying, true seeing, word, flaming body, death throes, innate weapons (very good)
key ability: summon balor
treasure: 160.000 gp
The Balor has many special effects, poor meele stats, good range and extreme mobility. Despite its flavor, the physical focus of its ability scores and its weaponry, the demon plays as artillery because once it closes into meele range, it is toast. Its SR is not at all useful and even at ranged, its low HD almost ensure a 1-hit KO. The demon plays extremely well as a BBEG as well due to its mobility, dominate and high skills. Its key ability may double its combat effectiveness but two times poor is still poor. Still, bonus points for the PC harassment potential of its special abilities.
The major design flaw here IMHO is the HD; twenty is definitely too low. Weapons and ability score wise, the demon is meant to be meeling but can't pull it off because it has fewer HP, armor and attack than a PC fighter. Of all the CR 20s, it falls to a single serious attack from a single party member. Due to the low HD, the demon also can't make up for its weaknesses with a better feat selection.



TARRASQUE
HD: 48 (extreme)
HP: 858 (extreme)
physical total: 66 (extreme)
mental total: 1 (pathetic)
Armor: 35 (poor)
Touch: 5 (dismal)
SR: 32 (average)
good save: 38 (extreme)
bad save: 20 (poor)
meele attack: +57/+52/+52/+52/+52/+52 reach 30 (extreme)
meele av. dmg: 30 (good)
blast DC: none
blast damage: none
blast range: none
resist: weapon 15 (poor)
immune: fire, poison, disease, energy drain, ability damage, ray, line, cone, magic missile, bleeding, unhealable damage (very good)
healing: regeneration 40 (very good)
skills: dismal
special: swallow, fear, imp. grab (poor)
key ability: unkillable
treasure: none
As expected, the tarrasque is your usual brute. It is tough to kill and if it full attacks you're dead. It has no skills, no specials and no active abilities which make for an easy-to-play encounter.
Design failure here lies with mobility-and a few chinks to its defences. As is, any flier can simply ignore the Tarrasque or kill it from afar. Earthbinding, jumping or something like a chameleon's tongue could solve this problem but someone didn't bother. Also, its "unkillable" status does have a few loopholes. Polymorphing, some negative energy attacks (e.g. from a shadow), paralysis. And it is stupidly vulnerable to mind-affecting to boot.
Thankfully, the Tarrasque has ALOT of feats. Thick Skin and Increased Spell Resistance help alot. See the wizard's face when his Wish fails due to SR. :smalltongue:



BLACK WURM
HD: 34 (good)
HP: 459 (good)
physical total: 50 (good)
mental total: 25 (average)
Armor: 39 (good)
Touch: 6 (dismal)
SR: 26 (very poor)
good save: +26 (average)
bad save: +19 (poor)
meele attack: +42/+40/+40/+40/+40/+38, reach 20 (very good)
meele av. dmg: 18 (poor)
blast DC: 34 (very good)
blast damage: 22d4 (poor)
blast range: close
resist: none (dismal)
immune: acid, sleep, paralysis (poor)
healing: rest only (dismal)
skills: extreme
special: fear, fly, crush, tail sweep, blindsense (poor)
key ability: sorceror 13
treasure: 240.000 gp
All in all, the black wurm plays as a gish. It has lower physical ability scores and AC than the Balor but due to its much higher HD, it ends up with much better meele attacks. It lacks special effects but its key ability (sorceror CL) gives it a good amount of tricks to fall back to. Also, the Black Wurm has extreme skills due to both HD and intelligence and, should it have spells like lesser planar binding and dominate person too, could prove to be a very efficient long-time adversary. Still, it lacks the Balor's mobility and harassment value.
Of the three, the dragon is the better-balanced but still has problems. Design failure here lies with defences. Despite its higher HD, the wurm has lower saves than the Balor, especially a fairly low Will save. It also lacks immunities and resists, a touch AC and its spell resistance is almost worthless. A caster could easily deal one-hit KO 50% of the time here.
Thankfully, the dragon is the most easily fixable with feats. Awaken Spell Resistance gives SR 34 which is very good. Pile Improve Spell Resistance to offset the dragon's general weakness to casters plus the Ray Deflection spell and they might need to work a bit to overcome it.


General comments:
1) Don't use the monsters above as given unless either your PCs are fairly weak (or low level). Otherwise expect a very anticlimactic 1-round fight. Try to shore up weaknesses with feats.
2) The tarrasque should be given the winged template just for the lulz, if not for the balance. For the others, you have double goods for the balor and triple overall treasure for the dragon. Use those to buy items that help.
3) The tarrasque only plays as a brute. But play the dragon intelligently and the balor as a mad genius to reflect their mental scores. The dragon is three times smarter than the average human and the balor more intelligent than most human geniuses. Xanatos Gambit to your heart's desire.

Zeta Kai
2009-01-04, 04:55 PM
Excellent analysis, Belial. I would love to see other monster breakdowns. I wish there was an entry for every monster. Great job. I especially like the statistical comparisons.

Grail
2009-01-04, 04:57 PM
IME,
Give the Balor class levels.
The Tarrasque should be an epic monster, make it so.
The Dragon should have one hell of a tricked out lair, Alarm is a great spell for Dragon lairs, and all my Dragons lay that spell around all the time. It should be using every magic item in its horde (that it can).

None of these creatures should just be stand up fights, not even the Tarrasque. Used as such, sure they aren't going to work as well as they should.

I used a Balor efficiently against a group of 19th level characters. He shifted in. In the surprise round, he cast Implosion targeting the Mystic Theurge (she made her save), first round he won initiaitve and targeted the Favoured Soul (who failed his save), Mystic Theurge cast AMF and other characters jumped inside. Third round, he teleported away. Coz that's the way a Balor gets to be a Balor, they don't pick fights that are going to be even or hang around if they are.

If you're worried about your characters casting Dimensional Anchor on all your baddies so they can't wig out, let them use Bracers of Escape or whatever that item is called that prevents DA attempts.

AslanCross
2009-01-04, 06:05 PM
I was also under the impression that a Balor would be at least Huge-sized. It's rather strange that the Glabrezu is bigger than the Balor, when I think it was pretty clear from past depictions that the Balor's pretty enormous. (At least they fixed that in 4E, but I don't think it would hurt to make the Balor bigger.)

Giving it class levels is a good idea to make it an epic last boss monster. It could also make a good physical tank for a real last boss.

I think all in all it's not a good idea to make climactic encounters against solo monsters. Not in 3.5.

RTGoodman
2009-01-04, 06:18 PM
On thing to remember is that a CR 20 monsters ISN'T that great of an encounter for 20th-level PCs. Really, they're supposed to able to handle 4 Balors/Tarrasques/Dragons A DAY.

If they're going to be the final BBEG of a game that's stopping at 20th level, they'll probably need at least a few extra HD or, as other said, class levels. (Or, if you can find a good one, PrC levels). For a climactic encounter, the CR should probably be somewhere around 24 instead of just 20.

Now, against 16th-level parties, these guys are quite a bit better. I mean, barring some kind of cheese, you can't even git rid of the Tarrasque at that level because wish isn't available until 17th level, the creatures' SR is slightly more valuable (usually need a 12 or higher on the die, not including CL boosts), and it's better able to stand up in melee against slightly squishier and less dangerous PCs.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-04, 06:21 PM
No, the major downfall with the balor is that a wizard can just stand on a bridge and shout "You shall not pass!" to defeat it.:smallbiggrin:

TheCountAlucard
2009-01-04, 06:33 PM
No, the major downfall with the balor is that a wizard can just stand on a bridge and shout "You shall not pass!" to defeat it.

:ahem: You'll note that in the books, he says, "You cannot pass." :smallbiggrin:

Mercenary Pen
2009-01-04, 06:43 PM
No, the major downfall with the balor is that a wizard can just stand on a bridge and shout "You shall not pass!" to defeat it.:smallbiggrin:

Besides, there's a whole lot of situational stuff that most people don't take into account:

1- The wizard must have a name beginning with G.
2- He must be wielding a staff, but also carrying a magic sword.
3- Party must consist of halflings (or local equivalent), humans, elves and dwarves
4- The wizard must find a suitable chasm in a ruined dwarven city.

These are the unwritten rules concerning easy defeat of Balors (or local equivalent)

Grail
2009-01-04, 06:59 PM
The Wizard must be a celestial and wear an artifact ring of Elven Origin.

Vexxation
2009-01-04, 07:01 PM
The Wizard must be a celestial and wear an artifact ring of Elven Origin.

And carry an ancient Dwarven sword called Foe-Hammer.

Grail
2009-01-04, 07:03 PM
The Sword was also of Elven make, not Dwarven. It was made by the smiths of Gondolin in the first age. It's name is not Foe-Hammer, that's just what the orcs called it, it was Glamdring.

Vexxation
2009-01-04, 07:06 PM
The Sword was also of Elven make, not Dwarven. It was made by the smiths of Gondolin in the first age. It's name is not Foe-Hammer, that's just what the orcs called it, it was Glamdring.

Right. Elven. My mistake.
But I was correct about what it was called. Thanks for pointing out the name, though.

As for below me...

actually, I'm wrong as well... the Orcs called it Beater or Biter....
serves me right for being a smarty bum!

Goblins, mate, goblins.

Grail
2009-01-04, 07:07 PM
actually, I'm wrong as well... the Orcs called it Beater or Biter....
serves me right for being a smarty bum!

Cheesegear
2009-01-04, 07:13 PM
Well done on the small breakdown of a few tough monsters. Tips for making tough monsters tougher is always welcome. :smallwink:

I would say that Red Dragons and more iconic than the Black though. And even Old Reds (for CR 20, to keep it fair) aren't exactly a pushover either.

Also note that Move Silently and Hide are class skills for Black Dragons. A Wyrm (34 HD), should have 37 ranks in both (-16 to Hide though :smallfrown:). Boost it's SR (with feats), and cast spells like Nondetection and the like. Remember, Dragons are smart. Your players actually have to find the dragon before they can kill it.

The Dragon's opening move should be a Greater Invisibility, Nondetection, Silence spells...Yeah.

Also note that Black Dragons can swim. Let them. Sure, every idiot has Water Breathing by level 20. But how do they function in Corrupt Water? Not very well I'd say. Players are hardly ever equipped for Aquatic adventures. Use this to your advantage.

Prometheus
2009-01-04, 07:14 PM
Besides, there's a whole lot of situational stuff that most people don't take into account:

1- The wizard must have a name beginning with G.
2- He must be wielding a staff, but also carrying a magic sword.
3- Party must consist of halflings (or local equivalent), humans, elves and dwarves
4- The wizard must find a suitable chasm in a ruined dwarven city.

These are the unwritten rules concerning easy defeat of Balors (or local equivalent)
Yeah, and even then you have to suffer the wrath of his death throes ability less you be dragged in with him. Really its just better to keep running and forgo the heroics.

Innis Cabal
2009-01-04, 07:27 PM
I hate to be that guy, but its Wyrm.

Most undead creatures, such as the shadow mentioned, won't do anything to Big T, as its immune to ability damage.

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 07:33 PM
It's weird how all the evil dragons except for red ones are CR and casting behind the good ones (save for Brass Dragons, but they have halved Breath Weapon-damage so the CR drop is somewhat justified). Isn't there supposed to be some sort of balance in the world? Rule stupidities aside, nice analysis.


Most undead creatures, such as the shadow mentioned, won't do anything to Big T, as its immune to ability damage.

But not to ability drain, for whatever reason. That's a huge minus in its armor as anything incorporeal with drain-ability can kill it without any fear of retribution. The fact that it's completely helpless against incorporeals in general is pretty ridiculous.

Personally I prefer to give it a ranged attack of shooting spines, much á la Lavos from Chrono Trigger, and make its attacks act as if from a +6 weapon (so they can hit incorporeals 50% too). I also give it the ability to burrow and basically give it Abomination-immunities, and immunity to planeshift.

EDIT: I realized, not everyone may know the Abomination-immunities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm).

Collin152
2009-01-04, 07:33 PM
No, the major downfall with the balor is that a wizard can just stand on a bridge and shout "You shall not pass!" to defeat it.:smallbiggrin:

The wizard dies in the process. His player replaces him with a better built wizard who just happens to share his name, look the same as him, but wears white.

Gorgondantess
2009-01-04, 07:35 PM
Hmmm... good point on a lot of these. I often throw in some homebrew stuff on my monsters to make things more epic... for example, for the tarrasque I give it about 80 ranks in jump, climb and swim. It was beautiful... the party wizard was a D&D vet, and when he saw they had to fight a tarrasque he cast fly, then to spite me he started flinging cantrips at it. The look on his face when it lept into the air and Swallow Whole'd him was priceless... then the mystic theurge cast fly and flew really, really high, so I had him roll a con check every round for atmospheric pressure. Rolled a 1 the first time and passed out, falling to the ground, and was trampled. The rest, now bereft of magical support, fled.
Grail: excellent use of the Balor. That's how it's meant to be played. They can be quite an adversary if done right... and never underestimate that vorpal sword. With a full attack action, a balor has a 1/5 chance of decapitation. Now, when a balor has summoned his friend, if they gang up on one guy that's 2/5. For unprepared PCs, that's pretty brutal. Balors are meant to be the BBEG, working from the shadows; throw in casting as a 10th level beguiler and they are a very, very formidable foe.
As for the black dragon, I've always boosted their abilities and SR; for an epic party, I gave my black dragon 50 SR. Black dragons don't get the respect they deserve, IMO; cheesegear is right on red dragons being iconic rather than black, and this has always dissapointed me- black dragons just feel like they would be the powerful, deadly ones.
Anyhow, a very good criticism of these monsters. They all have their flaws, but any DM worth his salt never uses the exact listings in the MM for their bad guys- it's predictable, and leads to a vague metagaming, in that most players have already read the entries for them. All of the books- especially the monsters- are really just a guideline. It's up to the DM to take it from there.

Lord Zentei
2009-01-04, 09:56 PM
Now, against 16th-level parties, these guys are quite a bit better. I mean, barring some kind of cheese, you can't even git rid of the Tarrasque at that level because wish isn't available until 17th level, the creatures' SR is slightly more valuable (usually need a 12 or higher on the die, not including CL boosts), and it's better able to stand up in melee against slightly squishier and less dangerous PCs.

They might have gotten a Ring of Wishes before then. In fact, I can see obtaining that as a preliminary quest episode to get the stuff required to destroy the Main Monster of the story arc.

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 09:57 PM
Scroll of Wish is the likeliest candidate. Cheap as hell and costs you your own XP.

Lord Zentei
2009-01-04, 10:08 PM
Scroll of Wish is the likeliest candidate. Cheap as hell and costs you your own XP.

Yeah, that works too. Point is, you can defeat the Tarrasque permanently before 17th level, more so since it is also pretty predictable tactically.

Eldariel
2009-01-04, 10:12 PM
Yeah, that works too. Point is, you can defeat the Tarrasque permanently before 17th level, more so since it is also pretty predictable tactically.

Really, the Wish is the only hard part about it at any point really (as written). Although playing against a real version of the Tarrasque is a tad different story; once it rains death from a distance, can attack incorporeals, sees through illusions and is immune to drain and mind-affecting, it becomes a whole different encounter entirely. Really, I think they should've made the Tarrasque the weakest Abomination in the first place, 'cause it's very much like the other Abominations and having Abomination traits would remove much of the "easy ways out" againts it.

Glooble Glistencrist
2009-01-04, 10:19 PM
The Balor's death throes are not fun. When we fought him at level 18 we all survived... until the last round. Then the bard and the fighter were completely disintegrated. Before the final battle. Yeah. Not fun.

SoD
2009-01-04, 11:37 PM
The Balor's death throes are not fun. When we fought him at level 18 we all survived... until the last round. Then the bard and the fighter were completely disintegrated. Before the final battle. Yeah. Not fun.

So...there was nobody to make sure the singer didn't get hit?

Grail
2009-01-04, 11:44 PM
Goblins, mate, goblins.

Goblins and Orcs are the same thing in Tolkiens works.

ashmanonar
2009-01-05, 12:26 AM
Right. Elven. My mistake.
But I was correct about what it was called. Thanks for pointing out the name, though.

As for below me...


Goblins, mate, goblins.

Goblin and Orc are interchangeable in The Hobbit, not as much in LOtR.

Starscream
2009-01-05, 12:26 AM
Just out of curiosity, how does a Pit Fiend compare with a Balor? I've always preferred Devils to Demons in my campaigns, because they make better schemers, and because I love Horned Devils and Erinyes.

Both are CR 20, but is one notably stronger than the other? Do they fight in different styles at all? I've never used Devils or Demons in a campaign that reached high enough levels to include either monster.

imperialspectre
2009-01-05, 12:41 AM
Balors are strictly better. They are more mobile, have a better full attack (vorpal weapons are quite dangerous), and their spell-like abilities are pretty similar. The fact that their 1/day SLAs are implosion and fire storm versus meteor swarm for the Pit Fiend is just icing on the chaotic evil cake. They don't have regeneration, but they blow up if you kill them.

On the other hand, the Pit Fiend is hardly a threat to be taken lightly, and a situation involving multiple devils is always more threatening than a situation involving multiple comparable demons, because the devils are more likely to work together and take advantage of the commander's high mental scores.

BobVosh
2009-01-05, 12:43 AM
Balors are strictly better. They are more mobile, have a better full attack (vorpal weapons are quite dangerous), and their spell-like abilities are pretty similar. The fact that their 1/day SLAs are implosion and fire storm versus meteor swarm for the Pit Fiend is just icing on the chaotic evil cake. They don't have regeneration, but they blow up if you kill them.

On the other hand, the Pit Fiend is hardly a threat to be taken lightly, and a situation involving multiple devils is always more threatening than a situation involving multiple comparable demons, because the devils are more likely to work together and take advantage of the commander's high mental scores.

You are the first I have seen to claim this.

I maintain I would rather fight a Balor than a Pit Fiend.

Eldariel
2009-01-05, 12:45 AM
Well, Pit Fiend has:

less HP
higher AC
lower attack bonus
more attacks
poison

They're still poor as hell in melee; AC 40 is a bit better than 35, especially with Mage Armor or some crap, but they're still toast when someone gets nearby.

The primary differences come in spell-likes:
Balor has Implosion
Pit Fiend has Meteor Swarm; advantage, Balor

Balor can summon a second Balor; Pit Fiend can only summon lesser Devils - advantage, Balor.

Balor has quickened Telekinesis; Pit Fiend has quickened Fireball - advantage, Balor.


On the counterbalance though, Pit Fiend has the fear aura (free action to activate; extra actions are always awesome), which is actually quite potent. Also, thanks to Regeneration, Pit Fiend might be slightly harder to kill (but killing them isn't quite as dangerous as killing Pit Fiends due to the lack of Death Throes).

Overall, I'd say Balor is tougher, but with smarter feat selection and playing (along with maybe some extra HP; 225 is really low for CR20 monster), a Pit Fiend is just as fine as the BBEG too. It doesn't want to engage in melee either. The worse summoning is a huge penalty though.

Grail
2009-01-05, 12:56 AM
Well, both Pit Fiends and Balors should be totting about all the Magic Items that a CR20 critter of that standing should have. Magic Armour can up the AC for both as well, even if it is just bracers of armour.

sonofzeal
2009-01-05, 01:02 AM
On the counterbalance though, Pit Fiend has the fear aura (free action to activate; extra actions are always awesome), which is actually quite potent. Also, thanks to Regeneration, Pit Fiend might be slightly harder to kill (but killing them isn't quite as dangerous as killing Pit Fiends due to the lack of Death Throes).
Pit Fiend has fear aura as free action; Balor has Flaming Body + Entangle, which effectively lets him deal 6d6 auto fire damage a free action, after catching someone with his whip. Fear Aura's way better though. And the Pit Fiend has better SR for some reason, despite having less HD.

Honestly, both get Double Goods, and both could pwn depending on how they use them, but I do agree that the Balor is more of an upfront threat while the Pit Fiend is more dangerous in some ways simply because devils are more manipulative and thoughtful.

Grail
2009-01-05, 01:27 AM
Considering every high level adenturer begins the morning with a nice plate of Heroes' Feast (affectionately known in my groups as Bacon), Fear Aura is kind of redundant.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-01-05, 01:02 PM
There is no excuse for pathetic monster defences. An unbuffed, unprepared PC should have no chance against a monster of CR equal to their ECL even when the monster is as given. But for any monster in the MM, such PCs automatically hit vs their AC and have 50% chance to dust them with a spell. Bad.
Against a monster with appropriate items, things are slightly better-but the buffed party still wins far too easily (in 1 round in most cases).



CR 20 means that the party should spend 20% of its resources to defeat the enemy. Now, consider the attacks and spell DCs the PCs will have at this level.
Tank BAB: 20 +5 enhancement +10 str +4 focus/special = +39
Sneaker BAB: 15 +5 enhancement +10 dex +2 focus +1 flank = +33
Caster DC: 10 +7-9 splvl +10 ability +1 focus +2 special = 30-32

Compare the above-which are unoptimised, unbuffed numbers-with Balor defences. Balor is toast in one round unless he gets serious defencive items. Dragon defences are even lower but the dragon has more HP and, possibly, SR.

On Pit Fiend:

HP: 225 (pathetic)
Saves: +23/+23/+25 (poor)
AC: 44 (goodish)
Meele: +29 x6, 18 dmg (poor)
Special: word, dispel, teleport, invisibility, image, mass hold, fireball, create undead, poison, disease, constrict (average)
Key: regeneration
The pit fiend is a pathetic meele combatant for its level. I mean, 225 HP? Everyone except casters and bards should have better HP at the level. Also, its specials are not that threatening, especially because the Word will only work on lvl 18 or less enemies.
However, the Pit Fiend has better trickery tactics. By creating images at a distance and teleporting between these images, enemies might not know where it is-or if it is there at all. Also, unless you kill a Pit Fiend outright, it returns 2 minutes later fully healed.

Oslecamo
2009-01-05, 01:16 PM
Honestly, I like to keep my monster's level of optimization in par with the player's level of optimization.

So for example if the party is fairly well optimized, then when they find the Balor said Balor not only will have optimized feats and combat gear but also will have some mind controled minions to suport it.

Also, adding class levels rulez for giving a good challenge to optimized parties! 2 levels of a nonassociated class allows you to give the monster elite array of stats plus the two levels plus NPC gear. The CR increases by 1, but the monster actually gets much stronger.

When the Balor is wearing a chain shirt, ring of deflection, cloack of resistance, has two extra feats and other goodies he sudenly becomes much tougher.

Berserk Monk
2009-01-05, 02:27 PM
:ahem: You'll note that in the books, he says, "You cannot pass." :smallbiggrin:

I hearby name ye TheCountAlucard, Rules Lawyer Supreme. May your anal retentive qualities save the world from dark forces.

mostlyharmful
2009-01-05, 04:17 PM
Keep in mind that the fluff of the Pit fiend is a background manipulator vs the Balor "gangboss" thing, they should be less awesome in a fight and better long distance.

Also I'd seed the fight to the Pit Fiend as it often has writen into it that it saves up the Wish 1/Year for when it really really needs it, like when it's about to get ganked by a bunch of psycho mortals so it's liable to still have its ace/nuke up its sleeve the first time you meet it.

AslanCross
2009-01-05, 09:17 PM
I think the Pit Fiend would have to spam its blasphemy at a distance, and then use greater teleport to keep away. Even an at-will fireball is pretty decent. It doesn't deal much damage, but given that the Pit Fiend's underlings (and the Pit Fiend itself) are immune to it allows for rather indiscriminate use of the explosive. (Of course it deals only an average of 35 damage, and it's best to assume that the PCs make all the Reflex saves. That gives us an average damage of 17.)