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Asbestos
2009-01-05, 02:37 AM
Found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090105), non-DDI only get the very basics.


The dailies are sort of like the rages in that they produce what amounts to a stance. However instead of activating with an attack, they allow the use of 1/encounter powers.

Most of the at-wills seem like basic fighter type attacks to me, one is reminiscent of lightning lure.

KKL
2009-01-05, 02:46 AM
Thorn Strike is fun stuff, and Earthgrasp Strike is awesome.

BardicDuelist
2009-01-05, 02:48 AM
That's a lot of HP.

Townopolis
2009-01-05, 03:15 AM
So we've got a primal striker with defender HP, and a primal defender with even more. It seems primals are just going to have lots of HP.

Combined with the path that gives Con instead of Int/Dex to AC in light armor, and you may have a pretty spectacular damage sponge.

The dailies are pretty awesome from an "ooh, cool idea" standpoint, no idea about their balance.

Overall, it looks like a very interesting class. I'll have to try one in game, and test one against a few PHB defenders.

Theodoric
2009-01-05, 03:16 AM
That's a lot of HP.
Well, he doesn't have much in the way of armour. Hide and heavy shield isn't all that much for a Defender. Ofcourse, that extra AC ability helps.
And there's this tendency for Primal creatures to have a LOT of HP.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-05, 03:16 AM
I don't have DDI, so this is a genuine question.

What makes this class balanced?

Townopolis
2009-01-05, 03:38 AM
Currently, it looks like all their class abilities focus on making up for wearing light armor, rather than further improvements such as LoH, Channel Divinity, Combat Superiority, or Weapon Talent.

They use either Con or Wis for AC instead of Int or Dex. The side effect is their reflex defense (which they get no bonus to) is going to suck, even more if they don't use a shield.

Their mark is an area affair, but they don't have the extra stickiness of a fighter, or the direct protection/healing of a paladin. Their mark focuses on one power that says "hit me or my friends will kill the **** out of you" or another that mimics the fighter's stickiness, but you only get to use one of these, and only on one enemy/turn, so that looks roughly in-line with other defenders.

So they have lots of HP, but instead of class features adding new stuff, they mostly focus on patching up holes.

The powers look pretty much level with other defenders.

Jokes
2009-01-05, 06:06 AM
Anyone else think of the Wonder Twins when you read the daily powers?

Font of Life seems pretty powerful. Making a saving throw at the start and end of your turn is big for a class feature. It's something that seems like it should be a utility stance.

Townopolis
2009-01-05, 06:20 AM
Oh yeah, forgot about FoL in my above post. Hmmm...

And it is pretty good, although I can count the number of encounters I've been in that involved saving throws on one hand (those that did required A LOT (apparently any monster with attacks involving a save have saves attached to every single at-will they have) so this is still pretty damn useful).

Lord Herman
2009-01-05, 06:23 AM
Hmm... so this class is basically the defendery bits of the 3.5 druid, while the old druid's controllery bits have gone to the 4E druid?

KKL
2009-01-05, 06:33 AM
Hmm... so this class is basically the defendery bits of the 3.5 druid, while the old druid's controllery bits have gone to the 4E druid?

Certainly seems like it.

Siegel
2009-01-05, 08:58 AM
So WHAT are the Daylies ?

Dublock
2009-01-05, 09:01 AM
So WHAT are the Daylies ?

Powers you can use once per day

Siegel
2009-01-05, 09:11 AM
Sorry. I meant " What are the Wardens Daylies ?"

Kurald Galain
2009-01-05, 01:54 PM
Sorry. I meant " What are the Wardens Daylies ?"

Polymorphs, that unlike the druid's, actually do something. You can change into a ram, panther, tree, or ice. The ram can charge things and push them, the panther shifts a lot, the tree can prevent being moved (but can still move on its own) and the ice causes difficult terrain.

The warden appears to play similar to a swordmage. Overall it appears that mechanics are getting (slightly) more complex than in the player's handbook.

RTGoodman
2009-01-05, 02:02 PM
It's just my initial reaction, but to me this class's balance seems... weird.

Font of Life lets you try TWICE a round to succeed on a save. Like someone else mentioned, there are other ways to make saves besides your normal once-per-round one, but they all involve expenditure of a power and an action for the round (as far as I know). It just seems like too much for it to be essentially free and "always on."

I'm okay with Earthstrength/Wildblood (add Con or Wis to AC instead of Dex/Int) since it makes up for the lack of heavy armor and still means your Reflex defense sucks. I'm even okay with the marking ability (once per turn, you can mark every adjacent enemy as a free action).

What I DON'T think is right, though, are the two mark-related abilities. The first, warden's fury, is an immediate interrupt against a marked target that attacks someone NOT you (like the Fighter's ability), but it's a Weapon vs. Fortitude attack that deals damage (1[W] + stuff) AND forces the target to grant combat advantage to you and all allies until the end of your next turn. That just seems like a bit much, and I guess the Warden is gonna be the Rogue's new best friend. The other, warden's grasp, is an immediate reaction that automatically hits that slides the target, slows him, AND stops him from shifting until the end of your next turn. That one's not as bad, though, I guess, since there's at least no damage involved.

On the flipside, the normal at-will invocations are pretty tame (one's basically a 1[W] Invigorating power, one gives +1 AC for a turn, etc.), as are the Encounter powers (hit a target twice, create difficult terrain, etc.), and the Daily powers are, to me, a little lackluster. You basically get a couple of small bonuses (+2 speed, +1 atk vs. enemies you've marked, etc.), and one attack power you can use sometime during the encounter. Most of them are low-damage (1[W] powers for a Daily isn't that great), though they are pretty Defendery (pushing targets, making difficult terrain, shielding allies, etc.).

Regarding specific Dailies, Kurald's pretty much spot-on - they're basically Wild Shape powers that have both a crunch AND fluff component. Here's an example.

Form of the Willow Sentinel - Warden Attack 1
Your skin takes on the appearance of smooth bark, and you draw strength from the earth. Your presence heightens your allies' endurance, and your viny branches help protect your nearby friends.
Daily; Polymorph, Primal
Minor Action; Personal
Effect: You assume the guardian form of the willow sentinel until the end of the encounter. While you are in this form, you can negate being pulled, pushed, or slid. In addition, any ally gains a +2 power bonus to Fortitude while adjacent to you.
Once during this encounter, you can make the following weapon attack while you are in this form.

Immediate Interrupt; Melee 1
Trigger: An enemy adjacent to you makes an attack roll against your ally
Target: The triggering enemy
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target takes a –4 penalty to the triggering attack roll.
Miss: Half damage, and the target takes a –2 penalty to the triggering attack roll.

Asbestos
2009-01-07, 02:16 PM
It's just my initial reaction, but to me this class's balance seems... weird.

Font of Life lets you try TWICE a round to succeed on a save. Like someone else mentioned, there are other ways to make saves besides your normal once-per-round one, but they all involve expenditure of a power and an action for the round (as far as I know). It just seems like too much for it to be essentially free and "always on."
Yeah, this jumped out at me as well. I guess they're reaaally trying to make up for the hide armor?




What I DON'T think is right, though, are the two mark-related abilities. The first, warden's fury, is an immediate interrupt against a marked target that attacks someone NOT you (like the Fighter's ability), but it's a Weapon vs. Fortitude attack that deals damage (1[W] + stuff) AND forces the target to grant combat advantage to you and all allies until the end of your next turn. That just seems like a bit much, and I guess the Warden is gonna be the Rogue's new best friend. The other, warden's grasp, is an immediate reaction that automatically hits that slides the target, slows him, AND stops him from shifting until the end of your next turn. That one's not as bad, though, I guess, since there's at least no damage involved.
Seemed like a bit much to me before I sat down and thought about it tactically. Say our Warden moves in to aid the Wizard who is based by a baddie. The Warden uses a free action to mark the baddie. On the baddie's turn he is faced with a decision. He can fight the Warden or attack the Wizard with a -2 penalty. He decides the Wizard is a bigger threat. He shifts away from the Warden and into a square adjacent to the Wizard but not adjacent to the Warden. He attacks with his -2 penalty. After the attack is resolved the Warden drags the baddie next to him with Warden's Grasp, slowing him and preventing him from shifting. The Warden marks the baddie again. The baddie can no longer shift and is forced to fight the Warden or risk the Str vs Fort attack. Basically, Warden's Grasp is going to be used much more often than Warden's Fury.

Compared to the other Defender class abilities the Warden powers seem on par. The Warden can only mark people adjacent to him, even the Fighter can whip javelins at people to range-mark them. Unlike the Fighter's mark the Warden's only activates when a marked enemy has attacked someone other than the Warden. The Fighter can at least prevent marked enemies from moving away. Warden's Grasp makes up for this somewhat, but the Warden is out of luck if he's against a bunch of shift-crazy kobolds that just refuse to stay near him and make sure to always be 6 away. Charge happy enemies can also confound the Warden (they'll only take a -1 to attack after the charge bonus is factored in too) Warden's Fury is great, but it requires an enemy adjacent to the Warden to attack someone other than the Warden. That's more specific than any other Defender feature.



On the flipside, the normal at-will invocations are pretty tame (one's basically a 1[W] Invigorating power, one gives +1 AC for a turn, etc.), as are the Encounter powers (hit a target twice, create difficult terrain, etc.), and the Daily powers are, to me, a little lackluster. You basically get a couple of small bonuses (+2 speed, +1 atk vs. enemies you've marked, etc.), and one attack power you can use sometime during the encounter. Most of them are low-damage (1[W] powers for a Daily isn't that great), though they are pretty Defendery (pushing targets, making difficult terrain, shielding allies, etc.).

The Daily powers are good in that there's no reason not to use them at the beginning of your first turn in an encounter (they're minor actions after all and the effects last all encounter) which, to me, is pretty nifty. Makes the resource management easier for them. Also, rtg, spoilering what is arguably the lamest of the Daily powers? Form of Winter's Herald with its +1 to AC, resist 5 cold (yes, situational at best, but a nice crunch-fluff mix), and aura 2 of difficult terrain for enemies is probably one of the best, especially considering the 'how do I keep enemies from just shifting/moving away from me and attacking my buddies' dilemma that the Warden is faced with.

RTGoodman
2009-01-07, 06:08 PM
Yeah, this jumped out at me as well. I guess they're reaaally trying to make up for the hide armor?

Well, and the focus of Primal class (or, at least, the Warden and Barbarian) seems to be light armor but HIGH survivability (in both hit points and, apparently, save abilities).


[...]Basically, Warden's Grasp is going to be used much more often than Warden's Fury.

I think it depends on the character/build. To me, I'd think that warden's grasp seems more situationally useful (and, unlike most other effects, doesn't deal any damage), whereas a Warden with a reach weapon is gonna be able to lock down several opponents and force one per turn to grant combat advantage to ALL allies with warlord's fury. Like a said, you'll be a Rogue's best friend. I mean, both could work, but I think I'd prefer a build that used warder's fury more.


Compared to the other Defender class abilities the Warden powers seem on par. [...] That's more specific than any other Defender feature.

True, true. Of course, a party of Martial and Primal characters (Barbarians, Druids, Wardens, Fighters, Rogues, and Warlords) is gonna be in melee a LOT, so there could be a lot of ways to still use it despite its specificity.



The Daily powers are good in that there's no reason not to use them at the beginning of your first turn in an encounter (they're minor actions after all and the effects last all encounter) which, to me, is pretty nifty.

Yeah, but sometimes you might want to save them for later in case there's a tougher fight or something. Still, minor action activation is good, and the bonuses themselves aren't anything to sneeze at.


Also, rtg, spoilering what is arguably the lamest of the Daily powers?

Well, to be honest, I didn't really "pick" it - I just sorta copied a random one. :smallbiggrin:

Asbestos
2009-01-08, 03:23 AM
Yeah, but sometimes you might want to save them for later in case there's a tougher fight or something. Still, minor action activation is good, and the bonuses themselves aren't anything to sneeze at.

Yes, but why save them up? Beyond 1st level of course, when you have more dailies. It seems that by RAI (no clue what the full RAW is yet) you can't have more than one 'Form of' daily going at a time and they last for the whole encounter. Also, unlike the Barbarian, there doesn't appear to be a way to burn excess dailies to make more powerful attacks. So, it seems to me at least, that the Warden is pretty incapable of going nova in an encounter. That's what I meant when I said there was no reason not to use your dailies, there doesn't seem to be any benefit to not using them.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-08, 03:03 PM
It seems that by RAI (no clue what the full RAW is yet) you can't have more than one 'Form of' daily going at a time and they last for the whole encounter.

But does it actually say that? Because if you got both of their benefits at once, that would give you plenty of incentive to nova.

Ealstan
2009-01-08, 07:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that when the PHB2 comes out, that problem will be solved in the wording of the polymorph keyword. You most likely will not be able to benefit from more than one polymorph keyword power at a time. If they don't make it work that way then polymorph will STILL be broken.

Asbestos
2009-01-09, 02:26 PM
Well, I'm not sure if it'll be broken to the same extent as 3.5 polymorphs, but I agree that the PHB2 will probably have some line that says you can only be under the effect of a single polymorph effect at a time. This would however completely hose druids that multi into wardens. It makes sense though, you don't want guys running around as ice-tree-panthers.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-09, 02:35 PM
I agree that the PHB2 will probably have some line that says you can only be under the effect of a single polymorph effect at a time.
Actually, I'll bet they'll leave that one out, either by accident or because they see no problem with polymorphing into two things simultaneously.

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-09, 02:38 PM
Actually, I'll bet they'll leave that one out, either by accident or because they see no problem with polymorphing into two things simultaneously.

Would it be broken? I'm no balance guy, but I like ice panther trees.

Kurald Galain
2009-01-09, 02:47 PM
Would it be broken? I'm no balance guy, but I like ice panther trees.
Actually, it wouldn't be any more broken than any other class using two dailies in the same combat.

The Mormegil
2009-01-09, 03:54 PM
Actually, it wouldn't be any more broken than any other class using two dailies in the same combat.

No, actually not. It will be more broken. This is because stacking effects are the best way to enter "god mode" which is the best way to use your dailies. This is also why some people are still worried that stances, rages and now polymorphs are completely stackable. I would beware the Primal Beast Raging ice panter tree with a Quicksilver Stance...

Inyssius Tor
2009-01-09, 03:55 PM
No, actually not. It will be more broken. This is because stacking effects are the best way to enter "god mode" which is the best way to use your dailies. This is also why some people are still worried that stances, rages and now polymorphs are completely stackable. I would beware the Primal Beast Raging ice panter tree with a Quicksilver Stance...

Five dailies? From three different classes? How does that work?

Kurald Galain
2009-01-09, 04:00 PM
Five dailies? From three different classes? How does that work?

By starting as a bard, presumably :smallbiggrin:

(no, I'm aware that still doesn't work, but caveat splatbook!)