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Human Paragon 3
2009-01-05, 05:30 PM
Mods: Feel free to move this to homebrew if you want. I felt it was more appropriate here because there's no homebrew yet, just a mish mash of ideas and a solicitation for advice.



Hey guys-hey.

I'm working on a medium-sized homebrew of a new magic system to use in a homebrewed campaign setting. The system is meant to accomodate (slightly unoriginal) elemental monks who draw raw elemental power from the land and use it to power their magic. Not totally dependent on this power, they also have decent melee abilities similar to the phb monk's unarmed strike.

The strength of the monk's elemental power is that they have unlimited castings per day, since they can just draw more and more power from the land/air what have you. The downside is that they actually have to take the time to draw the power, which will often take standard actions in combat.

This is informed by the flavor of the elemental monks, but I think it also solves two "problems" with normal casters in D&D 3.5. 1) They don't have to worry about rationing their spells per day or becoming useless at any level. 2) They won't simply dominate every combat by spamming powerful spells every round.

Here's my starting point for the mechanics:

I'm taking the Battle Sorcerer and replacing the martial weapon and light armor prof with wis to AC and unarmed strike. Then instead of vancian casting, I'm using the spellpoint system from unearthed arcana.

However, instead of getting all the spellpoints at the start of the day and gradually using them up until the caster rests, the monk will have "equilibrium" (roughly 1/4 of the spell points per day normally granted to the battle sorc) and "peak" (2x equilibrium). Equilibrium is a base spell point level that the monks will return to after a minute of doing anything other than fighting or meditating. Peak is the most spellpoints the monk can ever hold at once. At any time, the monk can focus and draw elemental power from his surroundings (by rolling a dice and adding that # to his pool). The dice scale with level so that at any point in the monk's career, drawing once probably won't bring them to peak from equilibrium but might on an exceptional roll.

From there, I think specialized spell lists for each element are a must. I've sort of started work on them, but it's not easy to do. A lot of them are spells I just reflavor. I've been drawing from the arcane and divine lists and even making up some new spells. Aside from the obvious elemental flavor, I am trying to give each element a combat "role" (or set of roles) Here's what I have:


Water

Healing
1 CLW
2 Resurgence
3 CMW

Status Dealing
1 Sickening Touch
2 Fatiguing Touch
3 Blinding Touch

Transformation
1 Endure Elements
2 Obscuring Mist
3 Ice Slick (grease)-------Fearsom Grapple

Offense
1 Orb of Cold, Lesser
2 Ice Dagger
3 Summon Elemental--Snowball Swarm

Air

Mobility
1 Expedious Retreat, Swift
2 Jump
3 Levitate---Fly Swift

Buffing
1 True Strike
2 Feather Fall
3 Cat's Grace

Trickery
1 Accelerated Movement
2 Distract
3 Mage Hand, Greater

Offense
1 Gust of Wind
2 Slide
3 Blast of Air (force)/Battering Ram---Slide Greater

Earth

Buffing
1 Fist of Stone
2 Vigor, Lesser (personal only)
3 Bear's Endurance/Bulls Strength

Offense
1 Sand Blast
2 Hail of Stone
3 Summon Elemental

Terrain Alteriation
1 Foundation of Stone
2 Soften Earth/Stone
3 Earthen Grasp--- Earth (Force) Ladder---Tremor (Ironthunder Horn)

Protection
1 Endure Elements
2 Bark Skin/ Conviction (of stone)
3 Resist Energy --- Mountain Stance

Fire

Melee
1 Flaming Fist (shocking grasp)
2 Blood Wind
3 Flaming Vengence (electric vengence)

Ranged Attacks
1 Orb of Fire
2 Ray of Flame
3 Scorching Ray

Area Effects
1 Burning Hands
2 Fire Blast (15 ft line, d6/level)
3 Flaming Sphere

Utility
1 Light
2 Raging Flame-Absorb Flame (arua against)
3 Pyrotechnics


The 1/2/3 numbering system is becaus I was also toying with a shaddowcaster esque mysteries/paths system for spells known. I think it fits the feel of the monks well, but I'm not sure how to balance it.

Any advice you guys have would be much appreciated. I am very open to unique mechanics, as long as they adhere to the core idea: drawing power from the environment to fuel elemental-themed powers.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-06, 11:03 AM
Still seeking considered responses.

Kalirren
2009-01-06, 01:06 PM
This looks like a very nicely-thought out idea. I think one could even safely run a campaign with characters of only this class.

I have two questions: 1) since you mentioned battlesorcerer, I know you're basing this off of 3.5. Are you planning on making this a traditional 20-level progression, or would you think of using E6/G6/one of those variants?

2) Are you intending to balance this class against any other classes in the game that exist currently, and if so, which ones?

Other than that, the only thing I can think of at the moment is that you should change the way the healing spells/effects work. CMW for even the maximum 24 hit points isn't going to be a viable use of a valuable action past level 10 or so, and is dubious already at level 7-8.

Hal
2009-01-06, 01:27 PM
This requires moving away from the spells of D&D, but how about this:

All of the spells you know are unlimited use. Each one has a set power level (1d6 healing/damage). The character can then boost the spell power by spending time in combat drawing energy, but it changes on the nature of the time spent. A swift action increases the effect by 1 die, a move action by 2, a standard action by 3. You could scale this by level, too. The base gets stronger every 3-5 character levels, while the bonus to drawing increases apace.

It doesn't work as well for spells that have no effects that require die rolling, but it does get rid of the numbered progression for spell usage.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-06, 01:33 PM
This looks like a very nicely-thought out idea. I think one could even safely run a campaign with characters of only this class.

I have two questions: 1) since you mentioned battlesorcerer, I know you're basing this off of 3.5. Are you planning on making this a traditional 20-level progression, or would you think of using E6/G6/one of those variants?

2) Are you intending to balance this class against any other classes in the game that exist currently, and if so, which ones?

Other than that, the only thing I can think of at the moment is that you should change the way the healing spells/effects work. CMW for even the maximum 24 hit points isn't going to be a viable use of a valuable action past level 10 or so, and is dubious already at level 7-8.


Yes, I am making a 20-level class. I would want it balanced against the SRD classes, weaker than full arcane caster but stronger than fighter or monk, probably. It's hard to say really. I want the class to be good but not broken. The best way to say it would probably be "a slightly gimpled arcane caster given extra goodies to make up for it."


Hal: there is a duskblade spell that works like that which would be a great fire monk spell, but I don't think basing the entire system on it would work, because not all spells can scale. However, having one for each class might be good, a healing spell for water, a damage spell for fire, a movement spell for air, and, um... something for earth. A self-buff maybe.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-06, 01:39 PM
To be honest, I'm not a fan of spell point systems anyway (I prefer Vancian casting), but this actually reminds me a lot of the Arcane Swordsave variant (it learns spells from the Abjuration, Evocation and Transmutation spells as maneuvers, and it's seen as ridiculously broken by some players). This is an interresting idea, but I think I'd sooner use a normal spellcaster unless someone else was using a Cleric or something. Elemental Monks could be good for solo games, though. Would this version have any alignment restrictions, and which stat would they use for save DCs? Also, do they have any other abilities other then Wis-based AC and Improved Unarmed Strike?

Hal
2009-01-06, 02:13 PM
Hal: there is a duskblade spell that works like that which would be a great fire monk spell, but I don't think basing the entire system on it would work, because not all spells can scale. However, having one for each class might be good, a healing spell for water, a damage spell for fire, a movement spell for air, and, um... something for earth. A self-buff maybe.

Well, my idea was largely for getting away from numbered uses of a spell per day and to keep the idea a bit simpler. It's easier to manage the spell list when the Water element has one spell that does damage, one that heals, etc. One of the (few) things I really dislike about 3.5 is the complication of extensive spell lists.

Depending on the effects you want each element to have, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to imagine ways to scale the spells appropriately. Increasing area of effect, save DC, or bonuses to overcoming spell resistance.

Anyhow, it was just an idea. Like I said, I don't like complicated spell lists.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-06, 02:22 PM
To be honest, I'm not a fan of spell point systems anyway (I prefer Vancian casting), but this actually reminds me a lot of the Arcane Swordsave variant (it learns spells from the Abjuration, Evocation and Transmutation spells as maneuvers, and it's seen as ridiculously broken by some players). This is an interresting idea, but I think I'd sooner use a normal spellcaster unless someone else was using a Cleric or something. Elemental Monks could be good for solo games, though. Would this version have any alignment restrictions, and which stat would they use for save DCs? Also, do they have any other abilities other then Wis-based AC and Improved Unarmed Strike?

I can definately see the comparison with tome of battle, since you spend actions to recharge your powers. That system, in general, might even be better suited to this, but I think it would be a little harder to teach somebody who doesn't know ToB.

The elemental monks aren't meant to replace clerics and wizards- actually they exist because they're just something that exists in the world. I know it's a backwards way to design, but that's where I am, trying to mechanically represent these crazy elemental dudes.

I'm toying with save DCs. Wisdom is going to be important for all monks, but I was thinking that Wis would be for bonus points and CHA or CON could be for save DCs. Or it could just be Wis for everything.

As for class features, I am strongly leaning toward homebrewing class features, stuff the characters can always do as long as they have at elast one elemental point in their reserve. For instance, Fire Monks could always add a d6 fire damage to an umarmed strike, water monks could always lay on hands, air monks could get fast movement and earth monks could get a Str/Con ehnahcement.

The problem is, I then have to balance these abilitites with eachother as well as balance the spell lists with eachother, and balance the total package against other classes. I don't want to completely overload them with class features, especially since they get 9th level spellcasting eventually. At the same time, having something they can always do would be a great boon, especially at low levels.

Question: Do you think the Paths/Mysteries idea is worth exploring, or should I come up with some other way for them to learn new powers? Also, how should I balance the powers if I use a path/mystery type system? Advice appreciated.

kamikasei
2009-01-06, 02:22 PM
You might consider looking at the Avatar d20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67493) project, which is trying to assemble d20 rules for highly flexible elemental-manipulation martial arts. It was the first thing I thought of when you described your idea, and it might serve as useful inspiration.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-06, 02:35 PM
You might consider looking at the Avatar d20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67493) project, which is trying to assemble d20 rules for highly flexible elemental-manipulation martial arts. It was the first thing I thought of when you described your idea, and it might serve as useful inspiration.

I've seen it, but I don't like it because it's skill-based. Or, I should say, I don't like it for this application. The system itself looks fine.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-06, 02:39 PM
I think the Paths idea is good for this, and I'd use Wis for everything (Elemental Monks need high physical stats, so they can;t really afford to have to be dependant on other stats). For Earth Monks, would a bonus to resust Bull Rush, Grapple and Trip attacks be a good idea? I can imagine a Str/Con bonus being more worthwhile then the others. Lay on Hands doesn't seem that good to me, unless it could be used to remove conditions like the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality class feature.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-06, 03:27 PM
What do you think about giving each class a single unique feature that improves as they level up? That way lay on hands could evolove to remove other afflictions etc.

Any advice on how to balance the mysteries? I mean: the first paths each have 1,2,3, the second paths have 4,5,6 and the third paths have 7,8,9 of course, but are those spell level equivilants? And how often do you think the monks should earn new elemental powers? One per level like shaddowcasters?

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-06, 03:38 PM
I'd have them access a new Mystery at the same rate as normal spellcasters. Improving the elemental abilities as they level up would work well (for Water types, borrowing Touch of Vitality would at least mean you wouldn;t have to fill their Mysteries list with negative status removing spells).

charl
2009-01-06, 03:42 PM
You could take a look at the hengeyokai (complete arcane I think) for suggestions for elemental spells.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-06, 05:02 PM
Building out paths is proving to be difficult. For an apprentice path, which contains three mysteries numbered 1, 2 and 3, are they supposed to be all the same power level? Are they supposed to be 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spell equivilants? Or are they supposed to gradually get stronger, but not quite be spell level equivilants?

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-07, 02:58 AM
I'd have them as being not quite as powerful as spells while getting stronger as the EM levels up.

Kalirren
2009-01-07, 12:57 PM
Building out paths is proving to be difficult. For an apprentice path, which contains three mysteries numbered 1, 2 and 3, are they supposed to be all the same power level? Are they supposed to be 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spell equivalents? Or are they supposed to gradually get stronger, but not quite be spell level equivalents?

The way it works as the shadowcaster class, you have to learn the mysteries in order, so they must naturally get stronger as you go from 1 -> 2 -> 3. They are not necessarily spell-level equivalents. I think learning one mystery-thing per level would be fine, but you migh want to start with more than one.

Are you planning to have more levels of mysteries, or are you just going to make each path scale throughout the 20 levels? I would advocate doing it the latter way, just because I don't like the idea of earlier, more basic techniques becoming useless as high levels approach. If we're going with one mystery known per level plus initial bonus, then you only have about 20-30 of these things, and the first few mysteries you pick up have to remain useful unless you develop some complicated-ass retraining procedure which somehow takes into account that you still knew how to do everything you did at level 1 when you're level 20.

Idea: Since you have the equilibrium system in lieu of Vancian times per day, you have to account for the fact that mysteries were balanced by making them useable more often and went from spells to SLA's to Supernatural abilities as you advanced in shadowcaster levels. Perhaps you should consider making it so that it progresses instead from standard action to swift action to immediate action? (or in 4E terms, standard action, minor action, free action? It would actually be better described in 4E terms because there's a neater action hierarchy.) That would make the old techniques useful, simply because you could still do them at the same time you were using your higher powers. (And you could even make higher-level powers dependent upon combinations of effects stacked by lower-level powers.)

The reason why I bring this up now is that obviously the way you want the power effects and the size of the power pool to scale is dependent upon the way you want both to advance with respect to level.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-07, 02:52 PM
Thanks for your imput, kal- some great thoughts in there.

I like the idea of changing the potency of lower level powers in some way as the monk levels, but I'm not sure if action speed is the way, since not all powers require a standard to begin with. That could change, however.

I had a crazy idea, too. What do you think of this:

When a monk medidates (a one hour proccess typically done at the start of the day) he choses a certain number of powers, up to his equilibrium, to be "ready." That means he can cast them at will. The rest of his powers known are "waiting" (not able to be cast). Once he casts a spell, it ceases to be ready and becomes waiting. In this way, he will gradually run out of spells, except that he can spend a standard action to draw, which means he rolls a die and adds the result in waiting powers to his readied list. He can't have more ready powers than his peak (2x equilibrium) and after a minute of doing anything other than fighting or meditating, his ready list returns to the one he prepared the last time he meditated.

In this scenario, higher level spells will be bigger, that is, they'll take up more spell slots. Perhaps they'll be weighted by their level on a 1-1 basis, which is to say a 5th level spell takes up the same amount of space on your ready list as five 1st level spells, or a 2nd and a 3rd, and so on. This means that higher level spells are more difficult to ready, especially on the fly.

Thoughts?

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-08, 10:35 AM
I had another idea. What if the E.M.s got beguiler/warmage style casting, that is, they get a narrow list of spells that they can cast at will. They'd get a lot of spells known, but be limited to their theme. As for spells/day I'd use the equilibrium system I first detailed in the OP.

Tempest Fennac
2009-01-08, 10:50 AM
I kind of prefer the first system because it's more original to be honest. The idea of rolling dice to recall spells could work as a balancing mechanism, though.

Human Paragon 3
2009-01-08, 11:12 AM
In any case, I'll be using the equilibrium system to recall spellpoints (or spell slots). The difference is how the monk gets his spells known. I think gaining access to an expanding, pre-set list a'la war mage/beguiler is a pretty good way to show a mastery of your chosen element.

The mystery/paths system is no more original than any other idea, since it's borrowed from another class, too. It has more of an ascetic feel to it, though, which I think is good. In reality, the problem is designing the paths and mysteries as I think they'll be harder to balance.

I suppose my question is- will the monks be too strong given a big list (say, 8 first level spells, 4-6 of each higher level spell) of spells known that they can always use as long as they have enough elemental points in their pool? Personally, I think forcing them to spend actions to draw power is a hefty drawback- it costs them their most precious resource, actions per character.


EDIT: One other drawback of the specialized spell list (war mage) system. All monks of a given element will have almost identacal capabilities. Feats would have to fill the gaps.

EDIT EDIT: What if each level had 2 spell lists and monks had to pick a path? For instance, an earth monk might need to choose between battlefield alteration and offensive spells.